I think Toriyama's time is over with the Dragonball series

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Doctor. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:03 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Anybody expecting there to be this super alaborate story and deep plotlines is blinded by their nostalgia if they think this is so different from DBZ and ODB
I don't have any nostalgic attachment towards the franchise and Super still can't touch the original series. This excuse is stupid.
It isn't necessarily an excuse. i am not excusing anything considering I didn't concede the notion that Super needs fixing and then make an excuse for it. I was just trying to rationalize the hatred for it because I don't really understand it. Like I said episode 130 is to many(including me) the single greatest episode of the entire franchise. And for good reason it had everything going for it. If anything the story elements have progressed further especially from the painfully generic villain who is "evil just for the sake of being evil" in contrast with Zamasu and his motives and Jiren being the main antagonist but still a good person.
You never just had just 'evil for the sake of being evil' characters considering Majin Vegeta, Roshi, Tenshinhan, the androids, Piccolo and Mr. Boo were all antagonists in the original series. 130 is everything but good in terms of its writing. It's a vast departure from the way that the original series portrayed itself and it seems to me more like a ploy to grab the fans of modern, lesser Shounen that rely heavily on emotional manipulation and melodrama masquerading as 'deep' character drama to gain viewers. I won't blame this on Toriyama though; I'm almost sure it was Toei's doing, but this doesn't excuse Toriyama's terrible plot points and ideas all throughout the modern DB revival, starting with Resurrection 'F' way back in 2015.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:04 pm

Lujin_16 wrote:If the Dragonball series will come back than without Akira and my mind says Toyotarō will do his stuff completely...

It does not mean that he will do nothing anymore but maybe only Dragonball movies in future..
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Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by PFM18 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:10 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote: I don't have any nostalgic attachment towards the franchise and Super still can't touch the original series. This excuse is stupid.
It isn't necessarily an excuse. i am not excusing anything considering I didn't concede the notion that Super needs fixing and then make an excuse for it. I was just trying to rationalize the hatred for it because I don't really understand it. Like I said episode 130 is to many(including me) the single greatest episode of the entire franchise. And for good reason it had everything going for it. If anything the story elements have progressed further especially from the painfully generic villain who is "evil just for the sake of being evil" in contrast with Zamasu and his motives and Jiren being the main antagonist but still a good person.
You never just had just 'evil for the sake of being evil' characters considering Majin Vegeta, Roshi, Tenshinhan, the androids, Piccolo and Mr. Boo were all antagonists in the original series. 130 is everything but good in terms of its writing. It's a vast departure from the way that the original series portrayed itself and it seems to me more like a ploy to grab the fans of modern, lesser Shounen that rely heavily on emotional manipulation and melodrama masquerading as 'deep' character drama to gain viewers. I won't blame this on Toriyama though; I'm almost sure it was Toei's doing, but this doesn't excuse Toriyama's terrible plot points and ideas all throughout the modern DB revival, starting with Resurrection 'F' way back in 2015.
I guess technically you could include Roshi as an antagonist. But without accounting for ODB DBZ had literally exlclusively main villains who were evil solely for the sake of being evil. Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Buu at their introduction were never anything other than "I am evil for the sake of being evil and plot" . The 4 major arcs never had anything further complexity or nuances than the Zamasu Arc and the ToP was never meant to be a deeply developing plot it is just a tournament. To me it is a better version of the Tenshinhan tournament arc in original dragon ball. certainly the best tournament arc in the history of the franchise.

130 was there to show a distinct contrast in what makes somebody powerful and what motivations would and should result in the best results. The contrast in ideology and the struggle in Jiren's character was shown beautifully in my opinion. The animation was easily the best of the franchise. The transformation being used was actually something more than "hey I am stronger now."

But yeah looks like I will just have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by GamerSkull » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:22 pm

I feel this way too... but I also think Dragon Ball should not have been revived in the way it has.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Doctor. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:23 pm

PFM18 wrote:I guess technically you could include Roshi as an antagonist. But without accounting for ODB DBZ had literally exlclusively main villains who were evil solely for the sake of being evil. Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Buu at their introduction were never anything other than "I am evil for the sake of being evil and plot" . The 4 major arcs never had anything further complexity or nuances than the Zamasu Arc and the ToP was never meant to be a deeply developing plot it is just a tournament. To me it is a better version of the Tenshinhan tournament arc in original dragon ball. certainly the best tournament arc in the history of the franchise.

But yeah looks like I will just have to agree to disagree with you on this one.
You're doing a disservice to the original series. Vegeta may have started as an 'evil for the sake of being evil' character, as you call it, but he developed in a natural and organic way throughout the series and actually presents example of an original and nuanced conflict in this series during the Boo arc. Mr. Boo also wasn't evil, merely misunderstood, and his relationship with Mr. Satan and the way their connection shapes both of their characters is one of the best parts of the Boo arc and the entire series. The Zamasu arc didn't have any nuance. It was literally in your face with the 'exterminating ningen' shit, Zamasu's motivation was obvious and didn't leave room to much interpretation and his archetype has been done much better elsewhere, you don't even need to look far. I say this as someone who both likes Zamasu as a character and his arc.

Further, I don't understand how you can say that the ToP was "never meant to be a deeply developing plot." It's a tournament with the erasure of multiple universes at stake, each one with their own societies and characters, with their own backstories and lives; the universe that we've been following included. It's a death-match created by Gods that don't really seem to give a shit about the mortals they're supposed to be protecting and governing over and that could have been the source of some interesting conflict considering how much Goku & co rely on the Gods. A death-match that also owes its existence to Goku's meddling, and him being such a reckless and dangerous individual could have also been the source of some reflection and introspection not only on his part but for everyone else too. If any premise in the ENTIRE Dragon Ball franchise had the potential for a 'deeply developing plot', it was the Tournament of Power. But they fucked it up. They introduced the premise, presented us with all these plot points only to drop them a few episodes later as if the arc had no stakes and the complexities of the premise mattered to nobody. The arc, structurally, is a mess. Artistically, it's nobody's vision.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by sintzu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:26 pm

Doctor. wrote:I would prefer someone who knows what they're doing and has some sort of vision rather than treating Dragon Ball as a little nostalgic side-project you can't be arsed to put more than 5 minutes of work into, like Toriyama does.
I think the biggest issue is no one's demanding a weekly manga from him. I know he can't draw like he used to but they can leave that up to someone else while he tells the story. It may not fix all the issues but it'd go a long way in improving things.
PFM18 wrote:I struggle to see how his writing is so different in quality now than it was before but I guess everybody has their opinion.
The original manga was a complete story. What he's doing now is giving very limited, vague bullet points for Toei's staff to work with.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:46 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:I guess technically you could include Roshi as an antagonist. But without accounting for ODB DBZ had literally exlclusively main villains who were evil solely for the sake of being evil. Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Buu at their introduction were never anything other than "I am evil for the sake of being evil and plot" . The 4 major arcs never had anything further complexity or nuances than the Zamasu Arc and the ToP was never meant to be a deeply developing plot it is just a tournament. To me it is a better version of the Tenshinhan tournament arc in original dragon ball. certainly the best tournament arc in the history of the franchise.

But yeah looks like I will just have to agree to disagree with you on this one.
You're doing a disservice to the original series. Vegeta may have started as an 'evil for the sake of being evil' character, as you call it, but he developed in a natural and organic way throughout the series and actually presents example of an original and nuanced conflict in this series during the Boo arc. Mr. Boo also wasn't evil, merely misunderstood, and his relationship with Mr. Satan and the way their connection shapes both of their characters is one of the best parts of the Boo arc and the entire series. The Zamasu arc didn't have any nuance. It was literally in your face with the 'exterminating ningen' shit, Zamasu's motivation was obvious and didn't leave room to much interpretation and his archetype has been done much better elsewhere, you don't even need to look far. I say this as someone who both likes Zamasu as a character and his arc.

Further, I don't understand how you can say that the ToP was "never meant to be a deeply developing plot." It's a tournament with the erasure of multiple universes at stake, each one with their own societies and characters, with their own backstories and lives; the universe that we've been following included. It's a death-match created by Gods that don't really seem to give a shit about the mortals they're supposed to be protecting and governing over and that could have been the source of some interesting conflict considering how much Goku & co rely on the Gods. A death-match that also owes its existence to Goku's meddling, and him being such a reckless and dangerous individual could have also been the source of some reflection and introspection not only on his part but for everyone else too. If any premise in the ENTIRE Dragon Ball franchise had the potential for a 'deeply developing plot', it was the Tournament of Power. But they fucked it up. They introduced the premise, presented us with all these plot points only to drop them a few episodes later as if the arc had no stakes and the complexities of the premise mattered to nobody. The arc, structurally, is a mess. Artistically, it's nobody's vision.
Um...I think Kunzait can say this better but the Gods of the Dragon Ball universe aren't like most western interpretations of gods. I know it sounds like that cheap "OH GOKU HAS ALWAYS BEEN A JERK" but its true. Gods in the Dragon Ball universe have never been champions of the greater good.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Doctor. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:49 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Um...I think Kunzait can say this better but the Gods of the Dragon Ball universe aren't like most western interpretations of gods. I know it sounds like that cheap "OH GOKU HAS ALWAYS BEEN A JERK" but its true. Gods in the Dragon Ball universe have never been champions of the greater good.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:53 pm

I'm REALLY dumb and didnt quite get what you meant...could you dumb it down?
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:53 pm

PFM18 wrote:Why do we have to go looking for a problem? To me this is an example of "If it isnt broke dont fix it" the Tournament of Power has brought as an amazingly epic and enjoyable arc.(at least to me) and the Zamasu Arc outside of the ending was fantastic. I don't know how you can objectively say that episode 130 isn't the best episode in the history of the series. Anybody expecting there to be this super alaborate story and deep plotlines is blinded by their nostalgia if they think this is so different from DBZ and ODB . this series was never meant to be extremely complex and in-depth. I don't know I just don't think anything needs to be changed except more consistent animation which from the looks of the movie it has already been fixed.
I don't see how my expressing my feelings on the quality of writing is "looking for a problem." I just see a problem. Dragon Ball Super has typically been average at best. Its only real demonstrative strength is character comedy, and I've really enjoyed a lot of their slice of life episodes. But the show cannot do drama to save its life. And as far as I'm concerned, the Tournament of Power is where the series completely bottomed out. Episode 130 is fascinating me because I do not understand it. At all. I thought it was boring, then infuriating, and then totally random, and it's the point where, after months of giving this "story" the benefit of the doubt, I finally realized it's completely unsalvageable. The fact that I've seen so many people treat this episode as something fantastic or even "groundbreaking" just blows my mind, because it is such garbage. It just fails as a piece of writing, and I say without hyperbole it was one of the least enjoyable segments of fiction I've ever watched. It's been five days since I watched it, and I am still angry at how pathetic it was. And I think what really makes me angry is just how much it proves the old saying "good ideas do not a good story make." Because Super in general, and this arc in particular, just boggle my mind at how they can take wonderful ideas and totally piss them away. With the ideas they have, this series could really be something special if they just gave enough of a damn to put the slightest bit of effort into fleshing those ideas out. But they don't.

Tagoma is forced to train with Freeza and becomes a hardened, jaded individual? Well, that sounds fascinating. I can't wait to see where they go with that. Oh, wait. Nowhere. Let's just throw Ginyu in there for no reason and completely sap out any potential for drama. We're going to have a tournament where universes are at stake? Where characters have to fight to save themselves? Where there are no real bad guys but people whose own survival depends on your death? Where you can't save your loved ones without getting your hands dirty? That is the most interesting idea Dragon Ball has ever produced. And where do they go with that? Nowhere. It's all treated as upbeat business as usual. Yawn. Toppo is going to reject his most defining characteristic of justice to become a god of destruction? That sounds like that's really going to put him through some inner turmoil. Or not. He just gets a power-up, nothing really changes, and he gets eliminated. How boring. And on and on and on. Super has consistently raised my hopes over a really cool idea and then dashed those hopes like bird eggs falling onto jagged cliffs.

I certainly agree that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but Super has proven itself time and again that it is beyond broken. I'm very glad you're enjoying it. I wish I could too. I wanted to. I was so excited about this arc. And it's just left me bored over and over and over again. And boring a viewer is the most damning sin a piece of entertainment can commit.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Cetra » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:55 pm

PFM18 wrote: Wait so You think Toriyama is a terrible writer but you are a regular on this site? That makes no sense to me
I don't even consider Dragon Ball a franchise with writing without Toei's inclusion and I am also a regular here.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by mute_proxy » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:58 pm

The series would lose quality and die pretty fast if Toriyama lets go of the wheel completely. Good thing there's no indication of that happening. He seems more than excited to be involved at the moment

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Doctor. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:01 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:I'm REALLY dumb and didnt quite get what you meant...could you dumb it down?
I'm saying that it doesn't really matter if the Gods are dicks or not. But it should start mattering when they become an active problem to the main cast. What's disconcerting is that nobody really, y'know, mentions that billions of people are being killed at the whims of literal children, with a father figure as a mediator that doesn't really take into account how our characters feel about the whole situation. This should be important to our characters for two reasons: 1. it's their universe getting erased and 2. Beerus himself is part of the God hierarchy so he should be able to voice his discontent about the whole situation, yet he'd just be ignored or possibly erased if he did.

How is "The Gods aren't like Western Gods that care about the Greater Good" a proper excuse for nobody rebelling or even thinking about rebelling against the Gods when they're literally threatening to erase our characters from existence for the tiniest thing? This shouldn't be about the 'Greater Good,' it's basic justice. You can resolve the conflict in such a way that the God hierarchy and our characters can coexist peacefully, but it's baffling to me how nobody in the writing staff really even cares enough to just point out how oppressive the situation is.

Also, I don't really subscribe to the idea that the Gods were always dicks. That comes from Super. The Gods in the original series might have been neglectful and incompetent, but they certainly always had good intentions and active roles in bettering the universe.
Last edited by Doctor. on Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:06 pm

Then I very much agree. Thanks for the explanation!
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by CriticalThinker » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:08 pm

I'm in the camp that thinks that Dragon ball as a whole never had great writing, and it only got worse as the series went on. But regardless of my view I don't think I'd want Toriyama to just get up and go, as even though his writing ability to me at least declined over time I would vastly prefer one cook in the kitchen as opposed to the many we got in the TOP for example. Here's hoping that he delivers on the story front for the upcoming super movie.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Doctor. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:25 pm

As to the claim that Dragon Ball can't be good without Toriyama, I'd just like to point people towards the Bardock special.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:26 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Because Super in general, and this arc in particular, just boggle my mind at how they can take wonderful ideas and totally piss them away. With the ideas they have, this series could really be something special if they just gave enough of a damn to put the slightest bit of effort into fleshing those ideas out. But they don't.

Tagoma is forced to train with Freeza and becomes a hardened, jaded individual? Well, that sounds fascinating. I can't wait to see where they go with that. Oh, wait. Nowhere. Let's just throw Ginyu in there for no reason and completely sap out any potential for drama. We're going to have a tournament where universes are at stake? Where characters have to fight to save themselves? Where there are no real bad guys but people whose own survival depends on your death? Where you can't save your loved ones without getting your hands dirty? That is the most interesting idea Dragon Ball has ever produced. And where do they go with that? Nowhere. It's all treated as upbeat business as usual. Yawn. Toppo is going to reject his most defining characteristic of justice to become a god of destruction? That sounds like that's really going to put him through some inner turmoil. Or not. He just gets a power-up, nothing really changes, and he gets eliminated. How boring. And on and on and on. Super has consistently raised my hopes over a really cool idea and then dashed those hopes like bird eggs falling onto jagged cliffs.
It's like they don't want to make the writing too deep, so they make it not pan out or it turns into a joke to remind us that this is just a fun kids show and nothing that serious.
It goes hand in hand with Toriyama not wanting to write something with a deeper meaning and just wanting to entertain.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:36 pm

I thought he was with the U.S arc but he's doing from the sounds of it pretty itense work for the upcoming movie, that signifies anything but he's ready to leave plus the producers said he looks to be writing more stories with the way the U.S arc ends. It doesn't seem he is ready to leave at all especially since he's helping games etc out too.

For better or worse we'll just have to find out.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:48 pm

dbgtFO wrote:It's like they don't want to make the writing too deep, so they make it not pan out or it turns into a joke to remind us that this is just a fun kids show and nothing that serious.
It goes hand in hand with Toriyama not wanting to write something with a deeper meaning and just wanting to entertain.
I never said it has to have a deeper meaning. But it does have to entertain. And this doesn't. That's my whole point. It's not fun. It's boring, repetitive, and tedious. It's nothing but fanservice and flash. And the fact that they think that that should be enough to engage anyone is, quite frankly, insulting. Toriyama was a master at taking simple stories and making them engaging. And while the quality of that writing diminished over time, even Dragon Ball at its worst was leaps and bounds over what this is. At the end of the day, they could make a fun kids' show without shooting themselves in the foot. If they're not going to take advantage of concepts they choose to introduce, they'd be better served not to introduce them at all. That's just common sense.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:03 pm

Someone just needs to have the balls to tell Toriyama, "No. This sounds stupid." Or, "We need more than that to work with."

That's not say some of Toriyama's idea are good or have enough content to be expanded on, but sometimes, from narrative directional perspective, and even in terms of character design, Toriyama can really phone it in.

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