"Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:03 pm

No seriously though, I don't know where this recurring non-argument comes from. I thought before it was flatter shading, but no. Then I thought it was the wider faces, since Shimanuki caused a lot of issues with that in the Sagas opening and Shintani's original poster had very low-placed facial features. But none of those things are really present on this cover. The comparison is just factually not there. I don't know what the fuck people think One Piece looks like for this to be supposedly similar to it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:06 pm

JulieYBM wrote: by Chioka Kimitoshi) is .
What has he directed? You got any pictures or examples of his direction?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Doctor. » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:08 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
This looks nothing like Dragon Ball. That mouth and facial expression looks like something straight out of One Piece.
Anyone who honestly thinks this looks like One Piece has never seen or watched One Piece.

This is unconventional, but its definitely very DB in its poses and things like muscle definition.
BakaManiaHD wrote:And here we go with the biased "it looks like One Piece" comments
The cover doesn't look anything like One Piece, it has all the Dragon Ball-esque facial features but with actual good expression this time, what's wrong with that?]
I've seen One Piece. That kind of wide, rounded mouth in that sort of profile angle is something straight out of it.
Not only is that an angle that is not typical of Dragon Ball, that's definitely not the kind of mouth you'd catch Toriyama drawing in that sort of angle.
They're more angular, smaller and don't extend themselves to the cheek, instead sticking closer to the front of the face, and the mouth definitely isn't as close to the eyes as the one in Shintani's drawing where the facial features feel cluttered because of how ridiculously huge the mouth is.

Enough with this nonsense that a criticism to Shintani's artsyle as not being representative of what Dragon Ball should look like is a criticism against his talent as an artist; I didn't say it was a bad drawing. And enough with this nonsense that it's "expressive" so that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if it's "expressive" if it compromises what Dragon Ball looks like. Not to mention the ridiculous nature of implying that Dragon Ball can't look expressive unless you deviate from the manga's art style(s) when the manga was arguably much more expressive than any animated Dragon Ball material.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Ajay » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:18 pm

It doesn't really look anything like One Piece, but it's definitely one of the more unconventional approaches to Dragon Ball art. It's nothing to do with the mouth, though. You can edit similar Toriyama shots and add massive mouths, which although I made deeply unsettling for comedic effect, is still very much Dragon Ball.

The difference that's causing some visual discomfort for people is the the very prominent jaw and super prominent pointy nose. Tate once did the same thing in the middle of a cut, and that looked similarly off to people... though with good reason considering that episode was a rushed mess.

All it really needs to make it more Toriyama-esque is a small jaw alteration and a slight nose curve. Some Toriyama shots from similar angles:
Image


The mouth is just as big, it just has a different approach to the face shape. I borrowed it from here. It obviously doesn't really fit perfectly, but you get the idea. I spoke to Olympia about it, and she had this to say:
The shape design of the jaw which affects the entire head construction is why it looks so radically different. It's just an entirely different shape language than you usually see in Dragon Ball designs. The jaw isn't a minor detail; it comprises a third of the head construction. The jaw in profile here is much straighter and set forward at the bottom than in the usual Dragon Ball approaches. It's pretty evocative of western approaches. I think Shintani is pushing boundaries and I think that's a more desirable stylistic trait if we ever want to see anything new from the series.
So yeah, I get it, it's not 100% in-line with Dragon Ball, but man... I can't say it bothers me much in this particular instance, and it certainly didn't bother Oly. Shintani's definitely struggled with getting Dragon Ball feature placement right at times; I've spoken in the past about the nose positions, for example. That said, this cover fucking slaps, and it made me order V Jump for the first time in a long time. I'm pretty content with some new approaches to Dragon Ball if it means not looking at phoned-in shiny boys anymore.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by DainIronfoot » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:55 am

I can see what Doctor was trying to say and in many ways I'm in agreement. Whether it is One piece looking or not, it is something different, and the face of Goku throws me off. The hair is also very stiff to me but the body itself is okay. Broly is fine as well, nothing to be in awe about though. Personally, I'm intrigued to see more pieces of art from Shintani, tbh. While I myself am still not invested into all his designs, seeing more of his art may help me understand them better. I think his feature placements are probably the worst aspect.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:01 am

DainIronfoot wrote:I can see what Doctor was trying to say and in many ways I'm in agreement. Whether it is One piece looking or not, it is something different, and the face of Goku throws me off. The hair is also very stiff to me but the body itself is okay. Broly is fine as well, nothing to be in awe about though. Personally, I'm intrigued to see more pieces of art from Shintani, tbh. While I myself am still not invested into all his designs, seeing more of his art may help me understand them better. I think his feature placements are probably the worst aspect.
I mean, I think its okay to not be particularly impressed by something, while at the same time acknowledging that this is better than what came before...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by DainIronfoot » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:24 am

JazzMazz wrote:
DainIronfoot wrote:I can see what Doctor was trying to say and in many ways I'm in agreement. Whether it is One piece looking or not, it is something different, and the face of Goku throws me off. The hair is also very stiff to me but the body itself is okay. Broly is fine as well, nothing to be in awe about though. Personally, I'm intrigued to see more pieces of art from Shintani, tbh. While I myself am still not invested into all his designs, seeing more of his art may help me understand them better. I think his feature placements are probably the worst aspect.
I mean, I think its okay to not be particularly impressed by something, while at the same time acknowledging that this is better than what came before...

Well, to some it may not be better than before. Everyone's opinion on it will be different mate. So while for you it may be better than before, that won't be the case for others.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:44 am

DainIronfoot wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
DainIronfoot wrote:I can see what Doctor was trying to say and in many ways I'm in agreement. Whether it is One piece looking or not, it is something different, and the face of Goku throws me off. The hair is also very stiff to me but the body itself is okay. Broly is fine as well, nothing to be in awe about though. Personally, I'm intrigued to see more pieces of art from Shintani, tbh. While I myself am still not invested into all his designs, seeing more of his art may help me understand them better. I think his feature placements are probably the worst aspect.
I mean, I think its okay to not be particularly impressed by something, while at the same time acknowledging that this is better than what came before...

Well, to some it may not be better than before. Everyone's opinion on it will be different mate. So while for you it may be better than before, that won't be the case for others.
What VJump DB cover art by Yamamuro really stood out to you?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:00 am

I'm not much of an animation expert, but why doesen't dragon ball have artstyle like this:
Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:13 pm

Because it has complicated linework, multi-layer shading, and other unnecessary over-detail that would limit the animation fluidity greatly. That's part of why GT's animation was about as interesting as a pile of rocks, and Super's art was completely inconsistent. It simply isn't practical or efficient to have incredibly complicated designs in a series that is all about high flying action and kinetic movement. Not unless you want to take the Redline route and take fifteen years to make ten episodes or something.

What you posted also isn't moving, which is the only reason it looks the way it does.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Son-Kakaroto » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:35 am

Shaddy wrote:Because it has complicated linework, multi-layer shading, and other unnecessary over-detail that would limit the animation fluidity greatly. That's part of why GT's animation was about as interesting as a pile of rocks, and Super's art was completely inconsistent. It simply isn't practical or efficient to have incredibly complicated designs in a series that is all about high flying action and kinetic movement. Not unless you want to take the Redline route and take fifteen years to make ten episodes or something.

What you posted also isn't moving, which is the only reason it looks the way it does.
But Z did it, and excelled great with movement. ]
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Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:20 am

Besides the fact that that's not really true, let me ask you to show me how much those images move. (Hint: you can't because they're mostly static).

It's the same as posting a Takahashi drawing and saying "SEE? WHY DO PEOPLE SAY KITANO IS A BAD ANIMATOR". If you're gonna strawman this hard I can just say that most of Z as janky and borked as this:

Are you gonna post movie screenshots alongside zoomed-in background shots from episode 5 yet? I've definitely never seen anyone do that.

Actually, if I really wanted to be a dick I would note that despite being less consistent in terms of models, Super has far and away more cuts of idiosyncratic and interesting movement than Z ever did. Most of Z looked anywhere from mediocre to just okay, especially in terms of timing (the single most boring thing about Z's animation), with a lot of the standout animators like Shida being corrected away from true greatness.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:24 pm

I really love that V-Jump cover and it doesn't like One Piece to me, but as someone that still thinks Goku was off-model and had Luffy's facial expressions in some frames of the first teaser, I can relate to that thought.

I'm more surprised some people didn't saw anything wrong back then, considering their supposedly knowledge about these things. Being "expressive" doesn't mean Goku should start looking like anothercharacter. After that teaser, he never looked like Luffy again and I never saw someone else saying he looked like Luffy either (until now), which means there was clearly something wrong with the first teaser.

Coments like "You never watched One Piece", "You don't know Toriyama's artstyle", etc... are just an ignorant way to deal with criticism.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:27 pm

Shaddy wrote:Besides the fact that that's not really true, let me ask you to show me how much those images move. (Hint: you can't because they're mostly static).

It's the same as posting a Takahashi drawing and saying "SEE? WHY DO PEOPLE SAY KITANO IS A BAD ANIMATOR". If you're gonna strawman this hard I can just say that most of Z as janky and borked as this:

Are you gonna post movie screenshots alongside zoomed-in background shots from episode 5 yet? I've definitely never seen anyone do that.

Actually, if I really wanted to be a dick I would note that despite being less consistent in terms of models, Super has far and away more cuts of idiosyncratic and interesting movement than Z ever did. Most of Z looked anywhere from mediocre to just okay, especially in terms of timing (the single most boring thing about Z's animation), with a lot of the standout animators like Shida being corrected away from true greatness.
Sheesh, turn it down a little bit.

But I don't think super detail and shading are inherently harmful to fluid animation...there's plenty of stuff from non-Dragon Ball properties that prove it ie One Punch Man. I mean, the character designs should ideally be simple but the right talent with good time can easily pull off fluid animation with a lot of detail. Hell, I'd say that's ideal, as I feel modern anime has moved way too far on the other side of the pendulum with fluid animation that largely looks flat and unappealing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:52 pm

Anything is "possible" theoretically. Pumping copious amounts of work into something is always technically an option, but that's at the behest of the people working on it and potentially the consistency. Attack on Titan is a great-looking anime, but Studio WIT is about as close to a slave camp as you can get in the anime industry. Toei doesn't always do a great job on their shows, but the people working there do have some semblance of rights.

Time isn't, and basically never has been a huge resource for Dragon Ball. Even the new movie, the best looking and most efficiently-produced piece of animated material the franchise has ever seen, has apparently had the staff working up to the wire before it's release. We were seeing revisions and changes of the exact same things multiple times from trailer to trailer (namely the CG). That's why I made the Madhouse comparison. Redline looked great on every conceivable scale, but it took seven years to make, and One Punch Man has taken four years to get a second season, under a different studio, and we don't even know whether it's going to turn out any good.

Also worth noting is that OPM's character designs are not ridiculously complicated, even compared to Yamamuro's sheets. Anything that looks amazing in that show is usually because they got an amazing animator to draw it that way, the same as with Dragon Ball. Having malleable and relatively basic designs means animators who want to pump excruciating detail into their work can, without the rest of the staff being brought down by unreasonable complications in the process. Again, this is why Takahashi looks so great on the Broly film but nobody else is stuck with broken Gokus like in episode 24 or 33.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by supersaiyanZero » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:30 pm

Shaddy wrote:Besides the fact that that's not really true, let me ask you to show me how much those images move. (Hint: you can't because they're mostly static).

It's the same as posting a Takahashi drawing and saying "SEE? WHY DO PEOPLE SAY KITANO IS A BAD ANIMATOR". If you're gonna strawman this hard I can just say that most of Z as janky and borked as this:

Are you gonna post movie screenshots alongside zoomed-in background shots from episode 5 yet? I've definitely never seen anyone do that.

Actually, if I really wanted to be a dick I would note that despite being less consistent in terms of models, Super has far and away more cuts of idiosyncratic and interesting movement than Z ever did. Most of Z looked anywhere from mediocre to just okay, especially in terms of timing (the single most boring thing about Z's animation), with a lot of the standout animators like Shida being corrected away from true greatness.
Z had for the most part great composition even in its "static" shots that you were quick to explain away. That probably contributes to why they're so memorable, along with the larger than life expressions and stylized stances (long legs, short torsos which also lent itself to the composition of the mage) which evoked a larger than life feeling. Hell, even the auras lent itself to the creation of the image instead of just being haphazardly slapped on like they are in Super save for a few standouts.

Compared to super's lifeless emotive plastic toy approach for the majority of the series, Z was brimming with life and detail. However, in the first trailer alone there is absolutely life brimming in Goku even though the detail is dialed down. So I do think there's a happy medium.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:05 am

That's all boarding and direction, I'm talking about character designs and their relation to movement here. Not that I've ever really been as attached to Dragon Ball's general directorial tone as I have other series, but I think both Z and Super have mostly standout episodes in a sea of general blandness, and a lot of what those entail for Z are ripped right from the manga anyway. How much the ratio of all that stuff differs from series to series is subjective, but I can't say I ever notice all that much in Z or Super unless it's a HUGE contrast, like going from a Shida board to one of Yamamuro's.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by zarmack » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:20 am

Shaddy wrote:Because it has complicated linework, multi-layer shading, and other unnecessary over-detail that would limit the animation fluidity greatly. That's part of why GT's animation was about as interesting as a pile of rocks, and Super's art was completely inconsistent. It simply isn't practical or efficient to have incredibly complicated designs in a series that is all about high flying action and kinetic movement. Not unless you want to take the Redline route and take fifteen years to make ten episodes or something.

What you posted also isn't moving, which is the only reason it looks the way it does.
You are making a false dichotomy between animation and detailed design. There are numerous anime films, OVAs and TV-series that feature both fluid animation and detailed art design.

People who have a hard-on/bias in favor for simpler, more cartoonish designs always wanna pretend that you can't have both, when in reality you could.

Even looking a the tv-series itself, SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu was an example of mixing good animation with detailed art.
Last edited by zarmack on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by Shaddy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:23 am

Show me what TV series runs for hundreds of episodes with as much action as Dragon Ball, with as much or more animation, and designs more complicated than Super's, week-to-week, with no season breaks, without production collapsing at some point. It doesn't happen. Anything that the series is going to do is going to be limited by the things that set it apart from other shows.

Listing well-animated and detailed singular sequences from DB itself isn't any more meaningful than just listing the people who can animate detailed things well in the first place, since that's divorced from the designs themselves. The reason Takahashi's art looks great is because it completely ignores the sheets and takes it's own approach, which is why it doesn't look all that different in the new movie.
Last edited by Shaddy on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super: Broly" - Animation Hub [Updated: 20/07]

Post by zarmack » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:28 am

Shaddy wrote:Show me what TV series runs for hundreds of episodes with as much action as Dragon Ball, with as much or more animation, and designs more complicated than Super's, week-to-week, without production collapsing at some point.
Going on non-stop week-to-week and low budgets are the main source of the problem, since they would often outsource the animation to cheaper, less talented animators and studios just to make deadline: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/animation-styles/

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