Which did it better, GT or Super?

[PsionicWarrior]

Poll time!

[Rakurai]

...

No worries, I thought it was just strange you were telling me these things which I was heavily against for lol.

I used to be okay with GT, but Super has made me appreciate it even more. Mainly because like you, I detest the storytelling approach and plastic artwork that plagued Super throughout most of its run. Sumitomo's music also isn't that emotionally compelling unlike with Z/GT. The fanservice was completely shameless too. At least I'm enjoying the Super manga. Toyotaro is more faithful to the take on DB lore without having to worry about promoting fan merchandise and trying to sell new toys.

[PsionicWarrior]

Poll time!

In case some voted previously, had to make a new poll as the previous one got rigged, please play fair cheers lol

[Robo4900]

You have my respect for being civil and interesting to read even if it's seriously impossible for me to understand such sentiment lol

Thanks.
I suppose that's the nature of opinions, eh?

Completely understand the sentiment for the original scores and I agree with it for the most part. For the record, I much preferred the original Japanese GT opening over the rap OP. I have to admit the rap was catchy though since I still remember every word from it more than a decade after I watched it (so it did its job). The falcouner scores imo suited the more sci-fi theme that DBZ went for. It may not have been great composition wise as well as the sub tracks but it gave me those X-files vibes.

Fair.

I'm still of the opinion that the Faulconer score was at its best in the Legacy Of Goku games; the sample set they used for those arrangements gave it a sound much more pleasing to my ears, the tracks were specifically selected from the best stuff, and it ended up giving off a really great vibe for the games.
And honestly, if they were able to just use the best tracks, and allowed moments of silence, I think the Faulconer score could have worked wonderfully in a show designed to house it. Though I suppose with Funimation's revisionistic approach to Z, it practically was another show designed to house it...

No complaints with the Tokunaga GT score from the sub. It was beautifully composed and made the show feel "grand".

I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but Tokunaga's score is definitely my favourite Dragon Ball score. I love it.

No worries, I thought it was just strange you were telling me these things which I was heavily against for lol.

Haha. Indeed.

I used to be okay with GT, but Super has made me appreciate it even more. Mainly because like you, I detest the storytelling approach and plastic artwork that plagued Super throughout most of its run. Sumitomo's music also isn't that emotionally compelling unlike with Z/GT. The fanservice was completely shameless too. At least I'm enjoying the Super manga. Toyotaro is more faithful to the take on DB lore without having to worry about promoting fan merchandise and trying to sell new toys.

Toyotaro's manga is a good bit of fun. I really wish Shueisha would push him up to a weekly(Or perhaps every two weeks) schedule, then change Super over to being seasonal, and adapt it from the manga. It'd still have sucky artwork and bland music, but the storytelling would be a lot better, and it wouldn't feel so much like I'm watching a lazy toy commercial.
It'd still be a disappointing follow-up to the originals, and definitely no masterpiece, but it might end up being a fun way to spend 20 minutes a week.

[sintzu]

Dragon Ball came in as the company’s best-performing franchise for the year, pulling in ¥97.9 billion (yet another jump over last year’s ¥61.1 billion), significantly beating the company’s forecast of ¥75.7 billion. The company is projecting ¥80 billion for fiscal year 2019.

Say what you wat about Super's quality but fincancially, it has put the franchise on the map in a way even the companies behind it couldn't predict, not even close.

[Tai Lung]

I feel that GT lacked to create more characters own that is to say the only ones that people remember is nuova shenron. I like that character together to ledgic
but they appear very little

both have errors but I do not see in how the gt was better in the aspect narative
the adventures by space were monotonous and some taken from the other arcs apart from colliding with the previous plot.
the arch of super 17 was very very hurried and that of omega is some empty
about the music at first I agree gt surpassed to super but from the arc of black I think that super I surpassed it a lot to gt, come on "ultimate battle" and "op 2" are great in comparison to the songs of gt that were very cheesy
On the super animation I improve quite to the point I know that on occasions I had a quality similar to that of a movie

so unlike the majority I do not condemn her so much for the beginnings

[PFM18]

You have my respect for being civil and interesting to read even if it's seriously impossible for me to understand such sentiment lol

Thanks.
I suppose that's the nature of opinions, eh?

Completely understand the sentiment for the original scores and I agree with it for the most part. For the record, I much preferred the original Japanese GT opening over the rap OP. I have to admit the rap was catchy though since I still remember every word from it more than a decade after I watched it (so it did its job). The falcouner scores imo suited the more sci-fi theme that DBZ went for. It may not have been great composition wise as well as the sub tracks but it gave me those X-files vibes.

Fair.

I'm still of the opinion that the Faulconer score was at its best in the Legacy Of Goku games; the sample set they used for those arrangements gave it a sound much more pleasing to my ears, the tracks were specifically selected from the best stuff, and it ended up giving off a really great vibe for the games.
And honestly, if they were able to just use the best tracks, and allowed moments of silence, I think the Faulconer score could have worked wonderfully in a show designed to house it. Though I suppose with Funimation's revisionistic approach to Z, it practically was another show designed to house it...

No complaints with the Tokunaga GT score from the sub. It was beautifully composed and made the show feel "grand".

I probably sound like a broken record at this point, but Tokunaga's score is definitely my favourite Dragon Ball score. I love it.

No worries, I thought it was just strange you were telling me these things which I was heavily against for lol.

Haha. Indeed.

I used to be okay with GT, but Super has made me appreciate it even more. Mainly because like you, I detest the storytelling approach and plastic artwork that plagued Super throughout most of its run. Sumitomo's music also isn't that emotionally compelling unlike with Z/GT. The fanservice was completely shameless too. At least I'm enjoying the Super manga. Toyotaro is more faithful to the take on DB lore without having to worry about promoting fan merchandise and trying to sell new toys.

Toyotaro's manga is a good bit of fun. I really wish Shueisha would push him up to a weekly(Or perhaps every two weeks) schedule, then change Super over to being seasonal, and adapt it from the manga. It'd still have sucky artwork and bland music, but the storytelling would be a lot better, and it wouldn't feel so much like I'm watching a lazy toy commercial.
It'd still be a disappointing follow-up to the originals, and definitely no masterpiece, but it might end up being a fun way to spend 20 minutes a week.

So you actually think that everything going through toyotaro is a good idea?

[Robo4900]

So you actually think that everything going through toyotaro is a good idea?

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

[sintzu]

So you actually think that everything going through toyotaro is a good idea?

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

Another plus of having Toyotaro in charge is that Super will have more of a consistant vision as there won't be multiple people doing what they want despite it not lining up that well with what came before. That doesn't mean Toei's staff won't have a hand in things as what they did right will most likely make its way through as well but it'll be more organized.

[JazzMazz]

So you actually think that everything going through toyotaro is a good idea?

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

I think the difference between Toyo and the Toei staff, is potential really.

Toyotaro, I think, is far better able to put his creative image to paper, and has the time to make a fairly coherent story.

That's something the Toei staff got really shafted for in that sense. There was never a clearly defined series composer(head script writer) for the show to organize the storylines and plot threads, which was really due to how insanely rushed the production for the series was. Visually, though Toei had a fair few talented storyboard artists and animators(some of which I would say are even more striking artists than Toyo himself), who I think got shafted a lot of the time. I think the tough schedule for the show really killed a lot of the potential execution of storylines and hindered the staff, who didn't really have a consistent direction for the show.

In conclusion, I think the Toei staff are capable, I would say more capable than Toyo at telling a story, I just don't think they really got the opportunity to bring their best(hopefully the new movie shows what I mean). I felt like with Super, the staff were more rushing to make a show to air, then make a good show.

[Saturnine]

One good point of Toyotaro that makes it easier to enjoy his product as a whole is the fact that he's got a consistent vision of power scaling. No bullcrap such as going back on godly base; clear-cut power levels etc etc. For people who care about this stuff, Toyotaro's manga is great.

[Lord Beerus]

So you actually think that everything going through toyotaro is a good idea?

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

I think the difference between Toyo and the Toei staff, is potential really.

Toyotaro, I think, is far better able to put his creative image to paper, and has the time to make a fairly coherent story.

That's something the Toei staff got really shafted for in that sense. There was never a clearly defined series composer(head script writer) for the show to organize the storylines and plot threads, which was really due to how insanely rushed the production for the series was. Visually, though Toei had a fair few talented storyboard artists and animators(some of which I would say are even more striking artists than Toyo himself), who I think got shafted a lot of the time. I think the tough schedule for the show really killed a lot of the potential execution of storylines and hindered the staff, who didn't really have a consistent direction for the show.

In conclusion, I think the Toei staff are capable, I would say more capable than Toyo at telling a story, I just don't think they really got the opportunity to bring their best(hopefully the new movie shows what I mean). I felt like with Super, the staff were more rushing to make a show to air, then make a good show.

You bring up a really good point about not last of consistent series director. That is an aspect that people tend of gloss over for some reason, despite the fact that having a stable series director is incredibly vital to having the most consistent product possible when it comes to story lines. Different series directors have different visions for how they want the grand narrative of any given anime or TV show to play out. And jumping from one series director to another after a few dozen episode did not do Super any favor at all.

[Bergamo]

So you actually think that everything going through toyotaro is a good idea?

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

I think the difference between Toyo and the Toei staff, is potential really.

Toyotaro, I think, is far better able to put his creative image to paper, and has the time to make a fairly coherent story.

That's something the Toei staff got really shafted for in that sense. There was never a clearly defined series composer(head script writer) for the show to organize the storylines and plot threads, which was really due to how insanely rushed the production for the series was. Visually, though Toei had a fair few talented storyboard artists and animators(some of which I would say are even more striking artists than Toyo himself), who I think got shafted a lot of the time. I think the tough schedule for the show really killed a lot of the potential execution of storylines and hindered the staff, who didn't really have a consistent direction for the show.

In conclusion, I think the Toei staff are capable, I would say more capable than Toyo at telling a story, I just don't think they really got the opportunity to bring their best(hopefully the new movie shows what I mean). I felt like with Super, the staff were more rushing to make a show to air, then make a good show.

You really say that Toei is more capable than Toyo despite making obviously bad narrative choices? A rushed schedule didn't make Toei create Super Saiyan Rage or SSGSSE. I don't see anything in the anime that suggests it would have better storytelling than the manga given more time.

[JazzMazz]

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

I think the difference between Toyo and the Toei staff, is potential really.

Toyotaro, I think, is far better able to put his creative image to paper, and has the time to make a fairly coherent story.

That's something the Toei staff got really shafted for in that sense. There was never a clearly defined series composer(head script writer) for the show to organize the storylines and plot threads, which was really due to how insanely rushed the production for the series was. Visually, though Toei had a fair few talented storyboard artists and animators(some of which I would say are even more striking artists than Toyo himself), who I think got shafted a lot of the time. I think the tough schedule for the show really killed a lot of the potential execution of storylines and hindered the staff, who didn't really have a consistent direction for the show.

In conclusion, I think the Toei staff are capable, I would say more capable than Toyo at telling a story, I just don't think they really got the opportunity to bring their best(hopefully the new movie shows what I mean). I felt like with Super, the staff were more rushing to make a show to air, then make a good show.

You really say that Toei is more capable than Toyo despite making obviously bad narrative choices? A rushed schedule didn't make Toei create Super Saiyan Rage or SSGSSE. I don't see anything in the anime that suggests it would have better storytelling than the manga given more time.

How about this fact; there was no head series composer on the show to organize the staffs idea's coherently. Hell even the Toriyama manga adapted parts of the series in Z and OG had a series composer.

I think the complete lack of someone filling that really important role, goes to show how much a of mess the production for Super was. Having a head writer would have definitely benefitted in giving the series a better sense of structure, as well as improving the inconsistencies in the show(since the head writer tends to handle a fair bit himself).

Also, yes, if they had more time, they could actually be able to co-ordinate the staff in a way that would allow them to make the quintessential moments of each episode actually land, and not to mention, not sacrifice crucial episodes because they were re-routing too many staff members to other episodes(such was the case with 129).

So do I think that a better schedule and planning would improve the story-telling and execution. Yes. Yes it would. Hell, I'm sure they would actually be able to give something like SSBE some proper emotional pay-off to its execution, instead of the half baked crap that it ended up being.

[PFM18]

God, yes.

He's far from perfect, but given the material he's given, he does a goddamn incredible job, sure as hell better than Toei's staff.

Plus, he works with Toriyama on each chapter, so it ends up a lot more authentically Toriyama.

I think the difference between Toyo and the Toei staff, is potential really.

Toyotaro, I think, is far better able to put his creative image to paper, and has the time to make a fairly coherent story.

That's something the Toei staff got really shafted for in that sense. There was never a clearly defined series composer(head script writer) for the show to organize the storylines and plot threads, which was really due to how insanely rushed the production for the series was. Visually, though Toei had a fair few talented storyboard artists and animators(some of which I would say are even more striking artists than Toyo himself), who I think got shafted a lot of the time. I think the tough schedule for the show really killed a lot of the potential execution of storylines and hindered the staff, who didn't really have a consistent direction for the show.

In conclusion, I think the Toei staff are capable, I would say more capable than Toyo at telling a story, I just don't think they really got the opportunity to bring their best(hopefully the new movie shows what I mean). I felt like with Super, the staff were more rushing to make a show to air, then make a good show.

You really say that Toei is more capable than Toyo despite making obviously bad narrative choices? A rushed schedule didn't make Toei create Super Saiyan Rage or SSGSSE. I don't see anything in the anime that suggests it would have better storytelling than the manga given more time.

Whats wrong with SSGSSE??

[Bergamo]

I think the difference between Toyo and the Toei staff, is potential really.

Toyotaro, I think, is far better able to put his creative image to paper, and has the time to make a fairly coherent story.

That's something the Toei staff got really shafted for in that sense. There was never a clearly defined series composer(head script writer) for the show to organize the storylines and plot threads, which was really due to how insanely rushed the production for the series was. Visually, though Toei had a fair few talented storyboard artists and animators(some of which I would say are even more striking artists than Toyo himself), who I think got shafted a lot of the time. I think the tough schedule for the show really killed a lot of the potential execution of storylines and hindered the staff, who didn't really have a consistent direction for the show.

In conclusion, I think the Toei staff are capable, I would say more capable than Toyo at telling a story, I just don't think they really got the opportunity to bring their best(hopefully the new movie shows what I mean). I felt like with Super, the staff were more rushing to make a show to air, then make a good show.

You really say that Toei is more capable than Toyo despite making obviously bad narrative choices? A rushed schedule didn't make Toei create Super Saiyan Rage or SSGSSE. I don't see anything in the anime that suggests it would have better storytelling than the manga given more time.

Whats wrong with SSGSSE??

A new unnamed uninspired slightly bluer form that appears less than 10 episodes before the end of the series with little explanation. You tell me.

[PFM18]

You really say that Toei is more capable than Toyo despite making obviously bad narrative choices? A rushed schedule didn't make Toei create Super Saiyan Rage or SSGSSE. I don't see anything in the anime that suggests it would have better storytelling than the manga given more time.

Whats wrong with SSGSSE??

A new unnamed uninspired slightly bluer form that appears less than 10 episodes before the end of the series with little explanation. You tell me.

I mean to be fair it isn't just "slightly bluer" it has atleast as many changes from the previous transformation as all the others in the series. Vegeta gains a different aura,darker blue hair, white glowing streaks, and black pupils that look great.

You say "little explanation" but what exactly do you expect for a transformation being achieved for the first time that nobody on the show is familiar with? You expect Piccolo to be like "Oh yeah I know all about this form let me give you all the details." It was simply a function of Vegeta breaking through his previous limits just like Goku broke through his limits when he got UI.

My interpretation, especially after Vegeta's speech about how Goku can have UI, he will beat Jiren in his own way. It was a creative way to give Vegeta his own transformation and to go down his own path. It coincided with Vegeta's motivations finally shifting from "I need to be strong enough to surpass kakarot" to "I need to be strong enough to protect my family and those I care about." It was a shift in the character's motivations and a few good character moments. (The first time being about protecting Cabba and the promise to him and the second being about his family) It was handled as well as any of the other transformations. It became less about surpassing Goku hence why for once when Goku achieves UI Omen then Vegeta isn't angry at Goku for surpassing him again he is happy that the team can win.(despite being mad about it earlier in the tournament) He said Goku could have his own form, He found his own route to surpassing his limits, and his motivations being about his family and his pride of the Saiyan race finally came to fruition and meant something for once in the entire series. To say this was handled poorly is baffling to me

And he had to get a new transformation otherwise the way that he defeats Toppo would have made absolutely no sense. If he was normal SSB he could only fight evenly with Toppo's base form. For him to dominate Toppo after he gained a huge power-up something substantial had to happen. And this was the decision they made

And for you to criticize this and praise Toyotaro is hillarious to me. Toyotaro makes better narrative choices? Seriously?
-Transforming into SSB consecutively decreases your power by 90% for no reason
-Goku suddenly has the ability to hakai even though that is for gods of destruction.
-Trunks suddenly has healing abilities.
-The Mastered SSB form contradicting the very premise of the ki control associated with SSB in the first place.
-Zamasu cloning himself thousands of times for no reason.
-Making Beerus the strongest GoD purely for the sake of fan-service
-Making the humans even more irrelevant in the ToP than they were in the anime.

Toyotaro changes things just for the sake of changing them not because it is actually a reasonable and rational change to better the story.

[SupremeKai25]

-Zamasu cloning himself thousands of times for no reason.

It's because Future Zamasu's immortality had merged Zamasu and Goku Black on a cellular level, which resulted in a mutation/evolution of the fusion. Therefore, Infinite Zamasu gained the ability to clone himself, as well as retaining his immortality and regeneration, of course.

[Bergamo]

Whats wrong with SSGSSE??

A new unnamed uninspired slightly bluer form that appears less than 10 episodes before the end of the series with little explanation. You tell me.

I mean to be fair it isn't just "slightly bluer" it has atleast as many changes from the previous transformation as all the others in the series. Vegeta gains a different aura,darker blue hair, white glowing streaks, and black pupils that look great.

You say "little explanation" but what exactly do you expect for a transformation being achieved for the first time that nobody on the show is familiar with? You expect Piccolo to be like "Oh yeah I know all about this form let me give you all the details." It was simply a function of Vegeta breaking through his previous limits just like Goku broke through his limits when he got UI.

My interpretation, especially after Vegeta's speech about how Goku can have UI, he will beat Jiren in his own way. It was a creative way to give Vegeta his own transformation and to go down his own path. It coincided with Vegeta's motivations finally shifting from "I need to be strong enough to surpass kakarot" to "I need to be strong enough to protect my family and those I care about." It was a shift in the character's motivations and a few good character moments. (The first time being about protecting Cabba and the promise to him and the second being about his family) It was handled as well as any of the other transformations. It became less about surpassing Goku hence why for once when Goku achieves UI Omen then Vegeta isn't angry at Goku for surpassing him again he is happy that the team can win.(despite being mad about it earlier in the tournament) He said Goku could have his own form, He found his own route to surpassing his limits, and his motivations being about his family and his pride of the Saiyan race finally came to fruition and meant something for once in the entire series. To say this was handled poorly is baffling to me

And he had to get a new transformation otherwise the way that he defeats Toppo would have made absolutely no sense. If he was normal SSB he could only fight evenly with Toppo's base form. For him to dominate Toppo after he gained a huge power-up something substantial had to happen. And this was the decision they made

And for you to criticize this and praise Toyotaro is hillarious to me. Toyotaro makes better narrative choices? Seriously?
-Transforming into SSB consecutively decreases your power by 90% for no reason
-Goku suddenly has the ability to hakai even though that is for gods of destruction.
-Trunks suddenly has healing abilities.
-The Mastered SSB form contradicting the very premise of the ki control associated with SSB in the first place.
-Zamasu cloning himself thousands of times for no reason.
-Making Beerus the strongest GoD purely for the sake of fan-service
-Making the humans even more irrelevant in the ToP than they were in the anime.

Toyotaro changes things just for the sake of changing them not because it is actually a reasonable and rational change to better the story.

I never praised Toyotarou. I'm aware he isn't perfect at storytelling. But let's talk about this now, I guess.

1. Vegeta had already fought 3 opponents and had visibly taken damage. Blue doesn't reduce your stamina by exactly 90% every time it is used consecutively, but it obviously depends on stamina and circumstance. The form is energy inneficient, because there needs to be tension in the story. If Goku has a perfect transformation that takes no stamina and is extremely powerful, then the only thing left to do is give him a new transformation, which is exactly the problem with Super.

2. Hakai being exclusive to God's is an assumption on your part. I think it is interesting to see Goku using different types of techniques, rather than using Kamehameha a bunch.

3. Trunk's healing abilities were foreshadowed for chapters. Mai and Gowasu suddenly got better after Trunks appeared, Trunks trained with the Supreme Kai from the future, and Zamas also had healing powers. If you missed all of these details, then I don't know what to say. This was a much more creative way of making Trunks relevant than a new unexplained transformation.

4. The concept of Ki control you're thinking of was never mentioned in the manga. The anime and manga are different mediums, so what applies to one should not be assumed to be true in regards to the other.

5. Zamas fused with the universe with no explanation in the anime. They said that Goku Black and Zamas fused on a cellular level as a result of their unusual fusion, but I admit that doesn't make much sense. Neither medium did this well.

6. Why is Beerus being strong negative?

7. I've talked about this a bunch elsewhere, but Krillin and Tien being actually used narratively and being a part of the Frieza's plan to eliminate u9 is much better than eliminating random fodder.

[SmugStick]

GT, as far as I’m concerned, only had one good arc; Baby. But it was REALLY good. The ending was also great and the music is fantastic. Super’s music got better at the end, but like GT I’d argue that it only has one good arc; Gokū Black. The ending was okay. But the tournament of power had some great highlights even if brief. Honestly, it’s realky tough to say.