Which did it better, GT or Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Bullza » Fri May 04, 2018 2:59 pm

So for the third time now I've started watching DBGT with my expectations supposed to be in check and thinking "Well maybe it isn't so bad, just don't expect it to be as good as Z".

And then now I've watched a handful of episodes again.....and yeah it's terrible. It's really really bad.

I don't think I'll get over just how awful a character Pan is. She is definitely worst character in the Dragon Ball franchise but even beyond that she's gotta be up there with the worst anime characters of all time. It's not that she's just a bad character but she's that bad that she actually makes the entire show bad.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri May 04, 2018 3:09 pm

Bullza wrote:So for the third time now I've started watching DBGT with my expectations supposed to be in check and thinking "Well maybe it isn't so bad, just don't expect it to be as good as Z".

And then now I've watched a handful of episodes again.....and yeah it's terrible. It's really really bad.

I don't think I'll get over just how awful a character Pan is. She is definitely worst character in the Dragon Ball franchise but even beyond that she's gotta be up there with the worst anime characters of all time. It's not that she's just a bad character but she's that bad that she actually makes the entire show bad.
Did you watch the dub or the subbed version?

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Bullza » Fri May 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Did you watch the dub or the subbed version?
Oh I just watch it with the dub.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 3:27 pm

Bullza wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Did you watch the dub or the subbed version?
Oh I just watch it with the dub.
Rule 1 of GT is you don't watch the dub.

(Well, unless you can find the Blue Water version, but most people don't like non-Funi dub voices)
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri May 04, 2018 3:33 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Rule 1 of GT is you don't watch the dub.
Actually this a rule I apply to anything DB lol

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 3:36 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Robo4900 wrote: Rule 1 of GT is you don't watch the dub.
Actually this a rule I apply to anything DB lol
Fair.

Though, while most of the dubs are just kinda bad, GT's Funi dub is actually awful.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Kaboom » Fri May 04, 2018 3:39 pm

Bullza wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Did you watch the dub or the subbed version?
Oh I just watch it with the dub.
Yeeeeeeah, that's your problem, right there. You know all those major tonal and script problems in Funimation's dub of Z? Well they're even worse in their dub of GT. Not even having the original music on the green-brick sets really helps... in fact, it just kind of exacerbates the problem because now there's an even bigger disconnect between the BGM and the dialogue.

With DBZ, we have a good English-language option nowadays thanks to Kai, but there's really no such avenue with GT (unless you start delving into foreign non-Funimation English dubs). The only good way to go is the original Japanese.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri May 04, 2018 3:41 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Though, while most of the dubs are just kinda bad, GT's Funi dub is actually awful.
I'll take your word on that lol

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Bullza » Fri May 04, 2018 6:11 pm

So you're saying it's not as terrible with the sub? Hmmm I'll give it a try.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 04, 2018 6:28 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Did you watch the dub or the subbed version?
Oh I just watch it with the dub.
Rule 1 of GT is you don't watch the dub.

(Well, unless you can find the Blue Water version, but most people don't like non-Funi dub voices)
Meh. I personally don’t think the Blue Water dub is really any better. Sure, the script is generally more accurate, but the voices can be pretty iffy and lifeless. Say what you will about the early Funimation voices, but by 2003, most of them at least gave the characters a sense of personality. The only Blue Water voice I really think was better was Pan. While I can see why many people are attached to the Ocean voices, I don’t think the Blue Water performances really have much charm behind them. Plus, there still are some occasionally weird lines thrown in, such as this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s4HKvKbPAIM).

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 8:38 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Meh. I personally don’t think the Blue Water dub is really any better. Sure, the script is generally more accurate, but the voices can be pretty iffy and lifeless. Say what you will about the early Funimation voices, but by 2003, most of them at least gave the characters a sense of personality. The only Blue Water voice I really think was better was Pan. While I can see why many people are attached to the Ocean voices, I don’t think the Blue Water performances really have much charm behind them. Plus, there still are some occasionally weird lines thrown in, such as this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s4HKvKbPAIM).
The voices in the Funi dub could also be iffy and lifeless. Stephanie Nadolny and Tiffany Vollmer couldn't act their way out of a paper bag(Look up Nadolny doing Goku reacting to Kuririn's death in the original series; it's incredibly cringe-worthy, and just... Really awkward...), whoever they got to voice Pan played up the petulant and annoying angle to a rather large degree, Chris Sabat's Vegeta and Piccolo at the time were awkward at best... Even the pre-Kai dubs that people consider to be good jobs from Funi(DB and the Boo arc of Z) still honestly still really suck, and just get by on the fact people who watch that stuff are used to Funi's dubbing, and see it as being just less bad than their other stuff. So then when you look at GT, the one that even Funi's defenders consider a crap dub, you see a dub that completley failed on every conceivable level.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Funi's Z dub often gets off easy on the fact that a lot of people are used to Z being a cheesy show with iffy acting, weird scripts full of nonsense lines, etc... It's the same reason that the Faulconer score often gets off easy, basically, and the same reason people like the old Sailor Moon dub, and the Yu-Gi-Oh dub; people are used to it being like that, so people don't notice it's off as long as it's a decently well-done version of what it is. By a similar token, DB also gets off easy because it's less inaccurate than Funi's Z dub so it's hailed as being a more-accurate take on it, while also still being "The show that came before Z", and still having that feel, so Faulconerite Z fans still often like it. The problem with Funi's GT is that they didn't even do a good job at making it the weird thing their Z dub was. Gone is the cheesy but fun synth rock of Faulconer productions, replaced with generic metal and cheesy rap, gone is the over-the-top kind-of-serious-but-also-pretty-goofy tone, replaced with an edgelord tone that completely doesn't work...
(To be clear, there's nothing wrong with liking Funi's old Z dub and other such things; kind of my whole thesis here is that while they ended up being completely unfaithful dubs that fail as translations of the original work, because they did a decent job at making whatever weird thing they ended up making it, people ended up liking it. If Funi's dubs were censored, cut dubs like the Saban dub was, I'd let it off a lot easier. But it's not, which -- in addition to Ocean having better actors -- is a lot of why I give the Saban dub a lot more weight as the better dub version of the first two seasons; neither was an accurate take, but the Saban dub kind of embraced the weird thing it was, rather than putting up the pretense of being "Ultimate Uncut! Untouched Japanese footage! UNCUT!! UNCENSORED!! THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE SEEN!!!" If Funi had done a more-accurate redub, like they kind of ended up getting with Kai, I would bear no ill-will towards their old Z dub. But, they didn't -- Kai is a distinct product that doesn't cover the whole 291 episodes, after all -- so I'm a lot harsher on it than I otherwise would be. GT's Funi dub, even if it did have an accurate counterpart, would still be terrible, because it's not even enjoyable as "That goofy TV dub from years ago")

I will grant you that Blue Water's voices don't compare to the Ocean cast, but neither do Funimation(I'm talking pre-Kai here, before anyone jumps down my throat about that), and they're not bad by any measure. There are a few iffy castings(No more than Funi had, I'd say far less), and honestly, at worst, I'd say BW were on the same level as Funi were in terms of voices. I strongly believe that the majority of the reason why people are so rough on them is because they're used to the Funi or Ocean takes on the characters, and don't like hearing other voices. Similar reason to why people have been hesitant to accept Clinkenbeard as Gohan. Thing is, the scripts were of the same standard as the Pioneer dub, they kept the original score from the get-go, the dub is uncut aside from the shortened OPs/EDs, the title cards, and a 10-second segment from episode 8 where Goku's junk is in full view, the voices were fine, the overall tone feels right...
Unlike the Funi dub, which feels like a crap show done by a crap team with an unfitting score, and some of the worst writing you'll ever see, Blue Water's is a pretty good show with decent(If occasionally inconsistent) acting, with incredible music, and good scripts.

You can call certain lines weird, but then you're just nitpicking. I could pick out piles of weird/bad lines from Funi Kai, and a ton from the Pioneer dub, and while I'm at it point out which voices are oddly-cast, and absolutely tear both of those dubs to shreds. Are they bad? No, most would say those are the two best pieces of dubbing work in the franchise.
Blue Water's GT is no perfect dub, but it's not a bad dub by any means, and while the Japanese option is still far superior, if you have to watch a dub, you won't do wrong by watching Blue Water's.
Meanwhile, if you watch Funi's GT dub, aside from the most forgiving fans and those few who grew up liking Funi GT, you're pretty much guaranteed to hate it.
Bullza wrote:So you're saying it's not as terrible with the sub? Hmmm I'll give it a try.
It's still not as good as DB or Z, but subbed(Or BW-dubbed) it's a pretty charming show overall, the music is some of the best stuff you'll hear in the franchise, and it comes to a very satisfying conclusion.
First 8 or 10 episodes are honestly pretty shaky(Though a lot less shaky than Star Trek: Next Gen's first 10 episodes... Yikes...), but the Lood cult stuff is pretty interesting, and once you get to Planet M-2, the show kind of finds itself, and really kicks off.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 04, 2018 9:29 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Meh. I personally don’t think the Blue Water dub is really any better. Sure, the script is generally more accurate, but the voices can be pretty iffy and lifeless. Say what you will about the early Funimation voices, but by 2003, most of them at least gave the characters a sense of personality. The only Blue Water voice I really think was better was Pan. While I can see why many people are attached to the Ocean voices, I don’t think the Blue Water performances really have much charm behind them. Plus, there still are some occasionally weird lines thrown in, such as this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s4HKvKbPAIM).
The voices in the Funi dub could also be iffy and lifeless. Stephanie Nadolny and Tiffany Vollmer couldn't act their way out of a paper bag(Look up Nadolny doing Goku reacting to Kuririn's death in the original series; it's incredibly cringe-worthy, and just... Really awkward...), whoever they got to voice Pan played up the petulant and annoying angle to a rather large degree, Chris Sabat's Vegeta and Piccolo at the time were awkward at best... Even the pre-Kai dubs that people consider to be good jobs from Funi(DB and the Boo arc of Z) still honestly still really suck, and just get by on the fact people who watch that stuff are used to Funi's dubbing, and see it as being just less bad than their other stuff. So then when you look at GT, the one that even Funi's defenders consider a crap dub, you see a dub that completley failed on every conceivable level.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Funi's Z dub often gets off easy on the fact that a lot of people are used to Z being a cheesy show with iffy acting, weird scripts full of nonsense lines, etc... It's the same reason that the Faulconer score often gets off easy, basically, and the same reason people like the old Sailor Moon dub, and the Yu-Gi-Oh dub; people are used to it being like that, so people don't notice it's off as long as it's a decently well-done version of what it is. By a similar token, DB also gets off easy because it's less inaccurate than Funi's Z dub so it's hailed as being a more-accurate take on it, while also still being "The show that came before Z", and still having that feel, so Faulconerite Z fans still often like it. The problem with Funi's GT is that they didn't even do a good job at making it the weird thing their Z dub was. Gone is the cheesy but fun synth rock of Faulconer productions, replaced with generic metal and cheesy rap, gone is the over-the-top kind-of-serious-but-also-pretty-goofy tone, replaced with an edgelord tone that completely doesn't work...
(To be clear, there's nothing wrong with liking Funi's old Z dub and other such things; kind of my whole thesis here is that while they ended up being completely unfaithful dubs that fail as translations of the original work, because they did a decent job at making whatever weird thing they ended up making it, people ended up liking it. If Funi's dubs were censored, cut dubs like the Saban dub was, I'd let it off a lot easier. But it's not, which -- in addition to Ocean having better actors -- is a lot of why I give the Saban dub a lot more weight as the better dub version of the first two seasons; neither was an accurate take, but the Saban dub kind of embraced the weird thing it was, rather than putting up the pretense of being "Ultimate Uncut! Untouched Japanese footage! UNCUT!! UNCENSORED!! THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE SEEN!!!" If Funi had done a more-accurate redub, like they kind of ended up getting with Kai, I would bear no ill-will towards their old Z dub. But, they didn't -- Kai is a distinct product that doesn't cover the whole 291 episodes, after all -- so I'm a lot harsher on it than I otherwise would be. GT's Funi dub, even if it did have an accurate counterpart, would still be terrible, because it's not even enjoyable as "That goofy TV dub from years ago")

I will grant you that Blue Water's voices don't compare to the Ocean cast, but neither do Funimation(I'm talking pre-Kai here, before anyone jumps down my throat about that), and they're not bad by any measure. There are a few iffy castings(No more than Funi had, I'd say far less), but the scripts were of the same standard as the Pioneer dub, they kept the original score from the get-go, the voices were fine, the overall tone feels right...
Unlike the Funi dub, which feels like a crap show done by a crap team with an unfitting score, and some of the worst writing you'll ever see, Blue Water's is a pretty good show with decent(If occasionally inconsistent) acting, with incredible music, and good scripts.

You can call certain lines weird, but then you're just nitpicking. I could pick out several weird/bad lines from Kai per episode, and a ton from the Pioneer dub, and absolutely tear both of those dubs to shreds. Are they bad? No, most would say those are the two best pieces of dubbing work in the franchise.
Blue Water's GT is no perfect dub, but it's not a bad dub by any means, and while the Japanese option is still far superior, if you have to watch a dub, you won't do wrong by watching Blue Water's.
Meanwhile, if you watch Funi's GT dub, aside from the most forgiving fans and those few who grew up liking Funi GT, you're pretty much guaranteed to hate it.
Bullza wrote:So you're saying it's not as terrible with the sub? Hmmm I'll give it a try.
It's still not as good as DB or Z, but subbed(Or BW-dubbed) it's a pretty charming show overall, the music is some of the best stuff you'll hear in the franchise, and it comes to a very satisfying conclusion.
First 8 or 10 episodes are honestly pretty shaky(Though a lot less shaky than Star Trek: Next Gen's first 10 episodes... Yikes...), but the Lood cult stuff is pretty interesting, and once you get to Planet M-2, the show kind of finds itself, and really kicks off.
I would personally say that Stephanie Nadolny is better as Goku than Zoe Slusar. The latter’s voice doesn’t really seem very distinctive. It’s too plain. Nadolny’s acting wasn’t always the best, but she did a better job of convincing me that Goku is a fun loving and goofy kid.

I should also just point out that I think that the Blue Water voices for Vegeta and Baby in particular were pretty bad. While I certainly agree that Sabat’s Vegeta voice at the time was pretty rough, I’d have to take his raspy Vegeta voice over whatever the Blue Water guy was going with. As for Baby, he just had a really generic evil villain voice. I just can’t get into it. Mike McFarland at least sold me on the idea that Baby is a psychotic manchild. Like I said, the only Blue Water voice that I would really say is better compared to her Funimation counterpart is the kid they got for Pan. Everyone else just didn’t have much to really make them distinctive.

Regarding the goofy lines, it’s not that goofy lines are inherently a dealbreaker, but the Blue Water dub often includes them in ways that ruin the mood of what are supposed to be dramatic scenes. I just can’t really understand what they were going for with lines like “shocking, ain’t it” or “bring it on momma’s boy”.

Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion. I don’t consider Funimation’s dub of GT to be a good dub either, especially not if you’re watching it with the replacement score. I just don’t really think the Blue Water dub is a noticeable improvement. That’s just me. I’m not a nostalgia buff by any means. I definitely agree that Funimation’s post-Kai dubs are much better than their pre-Kai ones (although I do miss Brice Armstrong), but I can’t really find anything about the Blue Water dubs of DB and DBGT that can really pull me in either.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 9:55 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I would personally say that Stephanie Nadolny is better as Goku than Zoe Slusar. The latter’s voice doesn’t really seem very distinctive. It’s too plain. Nadolny’s acting wasn’t always the best, but she did a better job of convincing me that Goku is a fun loving and goofy kid.
You're allowed to have an opinion, and I wasn't saying that Slusar is better than Nadolny(Though I do consider that to be the case), I was saying Nadolny can't act. Or at the very least, didn't act in Funi's dubs. I won't go into whether Slusar is better than Nadolny since your mind is clearly made up on that front, and particularly when nostalgia is involved, this stuff becomes basically impossible to discuss, but y'know...
WittyUsername wrote:I should also just point out that I think that the Blue Water voices for Vegeta and Baby in particular were pretty bad. While I certainly agree that Sabat’s Vegeta voice at the time was pretty rough, I’d have to take his raspy Vegeta voice over whatever the Blue Water guy was going with. As for Baby, he just had a really generic evil villain voice. I just can’t get into it. Mike McFarland at least sold me on the idea that Baby is a psychotic manchild. Like I said, the only Blue Water voice that I would really say is better compared to her Funimation counterpart is the kid they got for Pan. Everyone else just didn’t have much to really make them distinctive.
I agree that Vegeta wasn't that great, but Vegeta isn't in GT much. I really liked Baby's voice... Something that bothers me here, though, is that you're saying you prefer a Funi voice, and using that as a criticism of the dub. Okay, you're allowed to prefer one thing over the other, but the point here isn't that Blue Water has better voices, the point here is that Blue Water's voices are fine, and kind of my whole point in the voices bit was that people's main criticisms of the voices ultimately boil down to they prefer Funi, and thus discard other voices.

So, saying you think the Funi guy did a better job isn't really valid here. I happen to think the BW voice did a better job, but it doesn't matter either way; unless one of the major BW voices was outright bad(Again, I agree BW's Vegeta wasn't great... But also again, Vegeta's presence in GT was minimal), your method of arguing this doesn't stand up at all. And even if you did say you consider a given voice bad, it's incredibly easy to just say "Well that's just your opinion, and you're biased towards the Funi dub." And then it's easy to counter that with "Well that's just your opinion, and you're just biased against the Funi dub."

Ultimately, dissing voices probably won't get us anywhere, but this reputation BW have of having bad voices is just tiresome and silly. It overwhelmingly comes from the same crowd that hate on Ocean, and there's no way to argue against a bunch of people who basically just prefer hearing something the way they're used to.
WittyUsername wrote:Regarding the goofy lines, it’s not that goofy lines are inherently a dealbreaker, but the Blue Water dub often includes them in ways that ruin the mood of what are supposed to be dramatic scenes. I just can’t really understand what they were going for with lines like “shocking, ain’t it” or “bring it on momma’s boy”.
I don't think they ruin the mood at all, I would say they're entirely in-flavour for the tone and style of GT. And most of the time, those lines reflect the original intent of the Japanese. Sometimes not, but often yes.

Besides, even if there were lines that completley legitimately destroy all tension in that moment, destroy all momentum in the episode, and ruin the entire experience, Funimation's GT does that at least once an episode...
Plus, I'd say that Funi's Super and Kai: TFC dubs have done this on occasion... (Hey, if you're allowed to pick out a particularly bad-sounding quote with no context, I'm allowed to too! ;) )
WittyUsername wrote:Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion. I don’t consider Funimation’s dub of GT to be a good dub either, especially not if you’re watching it with the replacement score. I just don’t really think the Blue Water dub is a noticeable improvement. That’s just me. I’m not a nostalgia buff by any means. I definitely agree that Funimation’s post-Kai dubs are much better than their pre-Kai ones (although I do miss Brice Armstrong), but I can’t really find anything about the Blue Water dubs of DB and DBGT that can really pull me in either.
Eh, you're allowed to not like something.
In my experience, people who watched BW's GT have been much more positive on it, though. My sister, who grew up on Blue Water's GT, actually considers GT her favourite of the Dragon Ball shows, and my brother, who also grew up on BW's GT, considers it an inferior but nevertheless satisfying follow-up to Z...
Other friends of mine who grew up on the British airings of the show are generally neutral at worst on GT...
I outright love GT...

So, given what we know about the American fandom's reaction to GT, my experiences tell me that Blue Water's GT dub is generally a much better dub, even if we disregard my own thoughts about the dub itself, and just look at general reaction.

(Also, brief aside to anyone reading this who's curious: BW's DB dub is also very good. The scripts in the first 30 or 40 episodes aren't as good as their GT dub, since those episodes basically just used Funi's scripts with some modifications, but they slowly use more and more of their own stuff until episode 46(I think it was 46, anyway) is completely original, and it seems everything beyond that merely takes notes from Funi's when they needed to censor something, since Funi's DB dub was also censored)
Last edited by Robo4900 on Fri May 04, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Logania » Fri May 04, 2018 10:02 pm

I actually didn't know there was a Blue Water dub of GT. I just thought their was only the Funi Dub and the Japanese Dub, didn't really attempt to deeply research GT because I didn't really enjoy it all too much.

Is there any site or source where you can watch the Blue Water Dub?
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 10:04 pm

Logania wrote:I actually didn't know there was a Blue Water dub of GT. I just thought their was only the Funi Dub and the Japanese Dub, didn't really attempt to deeply research GT because I didn't really enjoy it all too much.

Is there any site or source where you can watch the Blue Water Dub?
It's out there, but it can be tricky to find if you don't know where to look, since it was never officially released; only TV rips circulate.

But yes, Blue Water GT is a thing. The guys behind Westwood DBZ had GT and DB dubbed aswell, but they moved the voices over to Blue Water in Calgary. So, it's an entirely different cast. It's a shame they didn't stick with Westwood in Vancouver, but the voices they got were pretty good, and the scripts were pretty much universally superior to Funi's competing dubs, and they used the Japanese score from the get-go, so no GT rap!! :D

The first 30 or 40 episodes of BW DB mostly recycled Funi's scripts, but they slowly transitioned to their own originals, and by about episode 46, it's all original, with some referencing of Funi's scripts for content that had to be censored(Since Funi's DB scripts were always censored). GT is also entirely original(Which is funny, since they actually dubbed that about a year before they did DB).
The Blue Water scripts are very faithful to the original Japanese dialogue. They aren't literally 1:1 with what you'll see in the subs, but the intent is translated well in a way that reads well when spoken, and the tone is just right.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 04, 2018 10:14 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I would personally say that Stephanie Nadolny is better as Goku than Zoe Slusar. The latter’s voice doesn’t really seem very distinctive. It’s too plain. Nadolny’s acting wasn’t always the best, but she did a better job of convincing me that Goku is a fun loving and goofy kid.
You're allowed to have an opinion, and I wasn't saying that Slusar is better than Nadolny(Though I do consider that to be the case), I was saying Nadolny can't act. Or at the very least, didn't act in Funi's dubs. I won't go into whether Slusar is better than Nadolny since your mind is clearly made up on that front, and particularly when nostalgia is involved, this stuff becomes basically impossible to discuss, but y'know...
WittyUsername wrote:I should also just point out that I think that the Blue Water voices for Vegeta and Baby in particular were pretty bad. While I certainly agree that Sabat’s Vegeta voice at the time was pretty rough, I’d have to take his raspy Vegeta voice over whatever the Blue Water guy was going with. As for Baby, he just had a really generic evil villain voice. I just can’t get into it. Mike McFarland at least sold me on the idea that Baby is a psychotic manchild. Like I said, the only Blue Water voice that I would really say is better compared to her Funimation counterpart is the kid they got for Pan. Everyone else just didn’t have much to really make them distinctive.
I agree that Vegeta wasn't that great, but Vegeta isn't in GT much. I really liked Baby's voice... Something that bothers me here, though, is that you're saying you prefer a Funi voice, and using that as a criticism of the dub. Okay, you're allowed to prefer one thing over the other, but the point here isn't that Blue Water has better voices, the point here is that Blue Water's voices are fine, and kind of my whole point in the voices bit was that people's main criticisms of the voices ultimately boil down to they prefer Funi, and thus discard other voices.

So, saying you think the Funi guy did a better job isn't really valid here. I happen to think the BW voice did a better job, but it doesn't matter either way; unless one of the major BW voices was outright bad(Again, I agree BW's Vegeta wasn't great... But also again, Vegeta's presence in GT was minimal), your method of arguing this doesn't stand up at all. And even if you did say you consider a given voice bad, it's incredibly easy to just say "Well that's just your opinion, and you're biased towards the Funi dub." And then it's easy to counter that with "Well that's just your opinion, and you're just biased against the Funi dub."

Ultimately, dissing voices probably won't get us anywhere, but this reputation BW have of having bad voices is just tiresome and silly. It overwhelmingly comes from the same crowd that hate on Ocean, and there's no way to argue against a bunch of people who basically just prefer hearing something the way they're used to.
WittyUsername wrote:Regarding the goofy lines, it’s not that goofy lines are inherently a dealbreaker, but the Blue Water dub often includes them in ways that ruin the mood of what are supposed to be dramatic scenes. I just can’t really understand what they were going for with lines like “shocking, ain’t it” or “bring it on momma’s boy”.
I don't think they ruin the mood at all, I would say they're entirely in-flavour for the tone and style of GT. And most of the time, those lines reflect the original intent of the Japanese. Sometimes not, but often yes.

Besides, even if there were lines that completley legitimately destroy all tension in that moment, destroy all momentum in the episode, and ruin the entire experience, Funimation's GT does that at least once an episode...
WittyUsername wrote:Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion. I don’t consider Funimation’s dub of GT to be a good dub either, especially not if you’re watching it with the replacement score. I just don’t really think the Blue Water dub is a noticeable improvement. That’s just me. I’m not a nostalgia buff by any means. I definitely agree that Funimation’s post-Kai dubs are much better than their pre-Kai ones (although I do miss Brice Armstrong), but I can’t really find anything about the Blue Water dubs of DB and DBGT that can really pull me in either.
Eh, you're allowed to not like something.
In my experience, people who watched BW's GT have been much more positive on it, though. My sister, who grew up on Blue Water's GT, actually considers GT her favourite of the Dragon Ball shows, and my brother, who also grew up on BW's GT, considers it an inferior but nevertheless satisfying follow-up to Z...
Other friends of mine who grew up on the British airings of the show are generally neutral at worst on GT...
I outright love GT...

So, given what we know about the American fandom's reaction to GT, my experiences tell me that Blue Water's GT dub is generally a much better dub, even if we disregard my own thoughts about the dub itself, and just look at general reaction.
If I may ask, why are you bringing up nostalgia? That has nothing to do with my opinion on these dubs. I’ve already said that I don’t consider either dub of GT to actually be good. I’m not some Funimation dub apologist.

As far as why I was bringing up the voices, why can’t I bring them up? When you’re talking about the quality of a dub, voices are always one of the first things to talk about. I wasn’t using “this voice isn’t the Funimation voice” as criticism of the dub, I just genuinely don’t like the voices they got for Vegeta and Baby in the Blue Water dub, and I don’t think the performances for most of the other characters are really much better. I’m not saying that they’re atrociously bad or anything, but I can’t really say that I find most of them to be particularly good. Like we both said, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

As for the kinds of impacts that these respective dubs have had on people, I’m glad your siblings enjoy the BW dub. With that being said, I don’t know how popular GT is in Canada, so I can’t confirm or debunk your statement about the dub leaving a more positive impact on people than the Funimation dub. Still, it’s not like GT has ever been a very popular series, even in Japan.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 10:28 pm

WittyUsername wrote:If I may ask, why are you bringing up nostalgia? That has nothing to do with my opinion on these dubs. I’ve already said that I don’t consider either dub of GT to actually be good. I’m not some Funimation dub apologist.
But you grew up on the Funimation dub, yes?
And you prefer the Funimation voices, yes?
Therefore, nostalgia enters into it.

Nostalgia has often been used as a "u r nostalgiablind loser. ur favorit show sux get over it" kind of thing, and I don't think that's fair. Nostalgia is a good thing, it gives you a sense of joy, and harkens you back to previous joyous experiences. However, in matters such as these, it can muddy the waters of objectivity, and while none of us can ever truly be objective about media, nostalgia can easily alter our perceptions to certain things in ways that can easily be described as a bias that most others would be highly unlikely to share, making the viewpoint of the one affected by nostalgia somewhat more questionable when discussing the actual quality of the thing for others who would not necessarily share that bias. But we're both affected by it; I grew up on the BW and Ocean dubs, just like you grew up on the Funimation dub. So, we're both in theory biased in favour of the point we're arguing... So, it's difficult to say either of our opinions on this matter can be taken with much weight.
WittyUsername wrote:As far as why I was bringing up the voices, why can’t I bring them up? When you’re talking about the quality of a dub, voices are always one of the first things to talk about. I wasn’t using “this voice isn’t the Funimation voice” as criticism of the dub, I just genuinely don’t like the voices they got for Vegeta and Baby in the Blue Water dub, and I don’t think the performances for most of the other characters are really much better. I’m not saying that they’re atrociously bad or anything, but I can’t really say that I find most of them to be particularly good. Like we both said, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Indeed. Fair enough.
Still, with how uncommonly-seen the Blue Water dub of GT is, and with both GT's hatedom, and those who throw fire at everything that isn't Funi, us agreeing to disagree ends up as a frustrating juncture to have to come to, since it ends up meaning there's no reliable source on whether the voices of the dub are good or not.

Still, I guess that might end up as a blessing in disguise; means people actually have to seek out and watch it. So, maybe I'll convert some new fans. :twisted:
WittyUsername wrote:As for the kinds of impacts that these respective dubs have had on people, I’m glad your siblings enjoy the BW dub. With that being said, I don’t know how popular GT is in Canada, so I can’t confirm or debunk your statement about the dub leaving a more positive impact on people than the Funimation dub. Still, it’s not like GT has ever been a very popular series, even in Japan.
Well, indeed.

Although, GT's status in Japan is difficult to get into. Many say its ratings fall-off was a continuation of the ratings fall-off from Z, plus a bunch who jumped ship early on because of franchise fatigue leading to them deciding "Okay, Z's ending, so I'm done."
In fact, it seems franchise fatigue may be exactly why GT didn't do well in ratings... Though even at that, the ratings weren't necessarily bad, they just weren't what they were with DB and Z.

From what I can gather, Japanese fans generally are a lot more positive than western fans on GT. It's not exactly loved, but I hear it's, at worst, generally not disliked. So... I generally side with the "It was franchise fatigue" argument, though the fact its reception seems to have only been lukewarm was probably also part of what killed it.
This leads into a lot of what I say against the general hatred of GT; from what I've seen, people in Japan generally seem to have been fine with it, people in the UK have generally been fine with it... A lot of the friends I have regular contact with online really like it... The thing all these groups have in common is that they watched it either subbed, or Blue Water dubbed.

I'm not going to stand here and tell you Blue Water's dub is a pillar of dubbing on-level with Cowboy Bebop and Death Note, and that you're wrong for not liking it, I'm just saying from my experiences, it seems to be fairly well-liked, and I consider it a really great dub(Hell, my German friend who's really hard on dubbed Dragon Ball media considers it pretty okay!), so I think it's safe to say that while the Japanese version is the best version to watch, if you have to see a dub, Blue Water's seems to be the one to go for, from where I'm standing.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Fri May 04, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 04, 2018 10:48 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:If I may ask, why are you bringing up nostalgia? That has nothing to do with my opinion on these dubs. I’ve already said that I don’t consider either dub of GT to actually be good. I’m not some Funimation dub apologist.
But you grew up on the Funimation dub, yes?
And you prefer the Funimation voices, yes?
Therefore, nostalgia enters into it.

Nostalgia has often been used as a "u r nostalgiablind loser. ur favorit show sux get over it" kind of thing, and I don't think that's fair. Nostalgia is a good thing, it gives you a sense of joy, and harkens you back to previous joyous experiences. However, in matters such as these, it can muddy the waters of objectivity, and while none of us can ever truly be objective about media, nostalgia can easily alter our perceptions to certain things in ways that can easily be described as a bias that most others would be highly unlikely to share, making the viewpoint of the one affected by nostalgia somewhat more questionable when discussing the actual quality of the thing for others who would not necessarily share that bias. But we're both affected by it; I grew up on the BW and Ocean dubs, just like you grew up on the Funimation dub. So, we're both in theory biased in favour of the point we're arguing... So, it's difficult to say either of our opinions on this matter can be taken with much weight.
WittyUsername wrote:As far as why I was bringing up the voices, why can’t I bring them up? When you’re talking about the quality of a dub, voices are always one of the first things to talk about. I wasn’t using “this voice isn’t the Funimation voice” as criticism of the dub, I just genuinely don’t like the voices they got for Vegeta and Baby in the Blue Water dub, and I don’t think the performances for most of the other characters are really much better. I’m not saying that they’re atrociously bad or anything, but I can’t really say that I find most of them to be particularly good. Like we both said, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Indeed. Fair enough.
Still, with how uncommonly-seen the Blue Water dub of GT is, and with both GT's hatedom, and those who throw fire at everything that isn't Funi, us agreeing to disagree ends up as a frustrating juncture to have to come to, since it ends up meaning there's no reliable source on whether the voices of the dub are good or not.

Still, I guess that might end up as a blessing in disguise; means people actually have to seek out and watch it. So, maybe I'll convert some new fans. :twisted:
WittyUsername wrote:As for the kinds of impacts that these respective dubs have had on people, I’m glad your siblings enjoy the BW dub. With that being said, I don’t know how popular GT is in Canada, so I can’t confirm or debunk your statement about the dub leaving a more positive impact on people than the Funimation dub. Still, it’s not like GT has ever been a very popular series, even in Japan.
Well, indeed.

Although, GT's status in Japan is difficult to get into. Many say its ratings fall-off was a continuation of the ratings fall-off from Z, plus a bunch who jumped ship early on because of franchise fatigue leading to them deciding "Okay, Z's ending, so I'm done."
In fact, it seems franchise fatigue may be exactly why GT didn't do well in ratings... Though even at that, the ratings weren't necessarily bad, they just weren't what they were with DB and Z.

From what I can gather, Japanese fans generally are a lot more positive than western fans on GT. It's not exactly loved, but I hear it's, at worst, generally not disliked. So... I generally side with the "It was franchise fatigue" argument, though the fact its reception seems to have only been lukewarm was probably also part of what killed it.
This leads into a lot of what I say against the general hatred of GT; from what I've seen, people in Japan generally seem to have been fine with it, people in the UK have generally been fine with it... A lot of the friends I have regular contact with online really like it... The thing all these groups have in common is that they watched it either subbed, or Blue Water dubbed.

I'm not going to stand here and tell you Blue Water's dub is a pillar of dubbing on-level with Cowboy Bebop, and that you're wrong for not liking it, I'm just saying from my experiences, it seems to be fairly well-liked, and I consider it a really great dub(Hell, my German friend who's really hard on dubbed Dragon Ball media considers it pretty okay!), so I think it's safe to say that while the Japanese version is the best version to watch, if you have to see a dub, Blue Water's seems to be the one to go for, from where I'm standing.
Regarding the reception of GT in different countries, I don’t think the dubs really factor into it for the most part. Many sub purists dislike the series regardless of whether it’s dubbed or subbed. The only dub related thing I can really imagine factoring into the show’s reputation in the U.S. is that rap opening, which Funimation has rightfully chosen to ignore in favor of this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m0xvYlZM49Q).
Last edited by WittyUsername on Fri May 04, 2018 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 04, 2018 10:53 pm

WittyUsername wrote:Regarding the reception of GT in different countries, I don’t think the dubs really factor into it for the most part. Many sub purists dislike the series regardless of whether it’s dubbed or subbed.
In the American fandom.

Remember, a rather large majority of English-speaking fans are American, and a huge amount of sub-viewers initially started out watching the dub -- hell, I'm a dub>sub convert(I still maintain a lot of nostalgia for the Ocean dubs, and I still defend several of the better dubbing efforts, but I'm very much primarily a sub-fan nowadays).

Anyway, it's really difficult to determine this. I've basically given up finding out for sure, since there's tons of easy ways of dissueding pieces of evidence that point either way, so I just stick with "This is my experience. If yours is different, I guess that's just life."
WittyUsername wrote:The only dub related thing I can really imagine factoring into the show’s reputation in the U.S. is that rap opening, which Funimation has rightfully chosen to ignore
The failings of Funi's dub go well beyond the crap opening, as many of the posts above attest to.
WittyUsername wrote:in favor of this (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m0xvYlZM49Q).
This doesn't really factor into anything here, but I love this cover version. Not a fan of the re-recorded instrumental they use, but man do I love Vic's vocals here. I wish he'd done the full-length song, rather than just the TV-size.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 04, 2018 11:00 pm

Robo4900 wrote: The failings of Funi's dub go well beyond the crap opening.
I agree, but apart from that awful opening, the Funimation dub of GT wasn’t really any worse than the majority of their dub of Z. That’s why I don’t think you can really say that the dub specifically was what factored into people’s dislike of the series.

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