Which did it better, GT or Super?

[kn83]

No it isn't. The whole reaction-vid business wasn't around then, now people know its easy to BS hype onto Super to keep an audience because thats what nostalgia + fanfic equals. Super doesn't have superior anything to GT. Its first episode started on a plot-hole it created for its own setting after the Buu arc. GT didn't.

This so hilariously false by every single standard
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41731

Super features more and better character development, better animation (on average), superior fights, better antagonists, 3 arcs that surpass all of GT's, more and better contributions to the lore, more substance, better directing, etc. Its no contest.

How is the first episode/chapter of Super a plothole? You gave no example. However, the basic premise of GT itself is a plothole. How can the Black Star DBs even exist when the Nameless Namek never became a guardian? How could Baby have created Dr. Myuu with a Black Star ball "50 years ago" when the Black Star Balls only spread across the galaxy in the first episode? GT is so filled with plotholes that you can write a whole book to list them all:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/H ... agonBallGT

And enough with the tired nostalgia argument. In reality, DB nostalgia-tards are actually the biggest haters of Super. People that don't have much of a sentimental attachment to the franchise are usually more positive

GT didn't have the internet at the time so there wasn't anywhere for people to do this, but with Super most of this speculation isn't story related half the time. Most of it is just recaps and reactions to scenes or previews, because Super has no story. Its really not hard at all to impress the Super fandom. If its not Animation, it's trivial flashy character moments. It's nothing but momentary hype and reaction off hype. Entirely. DB's brand just gives Super enough familiarity to hype people up without the need for substance to hold interest in an unfamiliar series. A newer series would have to build itself up or risk being dropped. DB does not. It still rides off of the positive reception people have for Z, thus it takes place there.

Modern Fan magazines, fan communities and fanfiction still existed back then since the 60's. It is foolish to deny that. We know through sources how the DB community saw GT back then they were mostly unenthusiastic because GT sucked that much to them. Claiming Super has no story is so hilariously false that it discredits everything you have to say. You are making a strawman of DBS fans. The DBS fandom is actually the most objectively critical of the DB fandom. We don't see them eat up everything the show does.

And there is nothing "trivial" about most of the character moments in Super. It actually gave more development to most of the side cast than most of Z did and especially all of GT. And it actually had more substance to it in some parts than half of Z and all of GT. You are just in denial.

Nope. Everything in GT was about lore, even with its minor mistakes, it solely focused on continuing off Z. Super does not. GT didn't end because of reception either which is a myth given by the people who hate GT claiming justification. It ended because it wasn't selling enough merchandise during franchise fatique and GT focusing more on story over stacking transformations was what didn't produce the merchandise. Super took the opposite route by only focusing on marketing, because the nostalgia of people wanting DB back also increased the demand after BOG, just hearing Toriyama was coming out of retirement for the movie hyped people up. Super was the cash-grab off of Toei realizing DB can still sell, hence the anime adaptions of the first two movies. The only lore Super has are the things Toriyama gave for plot ideas but everything in Super is written very stand-alone from the series, like SS4.

BS. Reception is a major part of why GT ended when it did. Even now, GT continues to have the lowest average review score on anime and TV review sites like MyAnimeList and IMDB. And your nostalgia argument is hypocritical. GT itself was filled with fanservice attempts and the choice to make Goku a kid again itself was blatant fanservice to early DB fans according to the writers. The bad quality of GT itself was part of why the franchise fatigue continued because GT failed to get people interested in DB again.

And there is nothing standalone about Super. RoF arc happens because of the Namek arc. The U6 arc happens because the RoF arc. The Black happens because of both that and the Android arc. And finally the ToP arc was indirectly cause by the events of the Black arc as revealed in Super's last episode. So everything in Super connects to itself and the story of Z.

I doubt that because would people still praise it if it wasn't DB? Would people only care about seeing certain characters 'shine' if not for nostalgia? People compare the writing in Super to Fairytail all the time and because Fairytail is its own brand, people judge it without preconsived hype and say its terrible. So if Fairytail's genre tropes ruin its presentation to people, then Super having the same issues should as well, but it doesn't. Those who defend it often always say "Well Z was flawed too" to justify it, and if they didn't have a nostalgia bias, they wouldn't be using Z to defend Super. Nostalgia is why people watch it regardless of quality, the people that say "shut up and watch some dragonball; you take it too seriously; I remember at 5.pm on Toonami" ec. Thats nostalgia. Unless its the casual casual dragonball fans who know of the series vaguely who defend Super, most people that dislike Super generally go through their reasons why, and their reference of Z portraying something better to them is not nostalgia. Its a comparison of expectations based on superior aspects of the past.

People compare every shonen they don't like to Fairy Tail, so that doesn't mean much. And Fairy Tail's writing is objectively way worse than any DB series.

Your argument is self-refuting because if Super fans threw Z under the bus to defend Super, then they obviously don't have any nostalgia bias for DB(Z) because if they did they would treat Z as a sacred cow that had no flaws. Its actually the people who use Z to bash Super are the ones with the nostalgia biases, because they delude themselves into thinking the falsehood that DB(Z) didn't have the same tropes and wasn't written the same way as Super, when any unbiased viewer can see that they (and almost the entire shonen genre since Fist of The North Star) are written the same way. PlaugeOfGripes has spoken on this multiple times.

Most Super haters are typically folks that delude themselves in to thinking Z was completely different from Super (despite using all of the same tropes), people who constantly whine about powerscaling (despite most of them not even understanding what powerscaling is) and butthurt GT fanboys.

Yes they were more objective (or at worst had negative bias nitpicking the SS4 fur color and BS). How is it that people can just flat out say they hated GT, but with Super people can reach for the flimsiest of claims to justify things Super does that are controversial? Nobody would claim characters in GT are "Heavily suppressed, mastered ki control" blah blah, for the exact same issues people claimed made GT bad. People hated Vegeta's design in GT, but defended Gohan's equally bad ROF design. Both Toriyama... unless people only hated GT because they thought it was okay that they could if it wasn't canon and believed Toriyama said somewhere that it wasn't canon (despite this being untrue), while people thinking Super is Toriyama approved, must mean they can't criticize it as harshly or with the same pious. That is also a factor.

GT did have a bad start up but the franchise fatigue started in the Buu saga, not GT. That is a fact. 20 years later it wore off with younger people who miss DB and now suddenly every installment is the greatest thing they ever watch and the only anime they are willing to watch.

Wrong again. The complaints from dumb people about ki control and suppression have been there for all DB series. This in nothing new to Super.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O0gf6nSRvo

I've never heard of anyone claiming to like, let alone defend Gohan's RoF design (which was before Super by the way). You just made another strawman.

GT's reception today isn't any better nor worse than it was in the 90s, so clearly that means people weren't more objective then.

[kn83]

The manga doesnt have the pacing length the anime does, but the Zamasu bit isn't credible. It wast stated that Toriyama did not intend Zamasu to be strong at all. He was intended to be fodder, but the fanbase wanted Vegito which Merged Zamasu gave perfect leeway for. Toei's Zamasu literally pulled everything he did out of thin air in their fight. The spirit bird thing, the energy halo, the (pretentious attack names), him turning giant out of no-where when neither Saiyans nor Kais can do that. Everything. His scaling being abstract is a given from Toei as they don't write Super with logic, they write for the cinematic event. Hence the bad scaling. Justt like the ridiculous fight with Uglyraza.

Wrong again. Just cause Toriyama originally intended something to be a certain way doesn't mean that way is better. Making Zamasu fodder is a really bad idea because he's supposed to be the main antagonist. Would it have been better if A19 and A20 were the only villains of the Android arc? Would it have been have better if SSJ was only a 10x multiplier even though that wouldn't make any sense since that's weaker than KKx20? Many of the best things about DB(Z) were the result of changes by the editing staff. And in case you forgot, Vegito is in the Super manga too so there goes that hypocritical argument.

Your agruments about Merged Zamasu in the anime are extremely shallow and petty. It was never stated anywhere that Supreme Kais couldn't do much of the stuff he did and none of his extra abilities in the anime cause any problems for the narrative so you are nothing to complain about. Black and Zamasu are written to be combat geniuses, so there is no real reason why Merged Zamasu couldn't create no abilities like that. Plus, there is nothing wrong with Merged Zamasu's powerscaling in the anime (same with Aniraza for that matter). Black himself is stronger than Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta and Future Zamasu was relative to early SSB levels, Merged Zamasu giving SSB Vegito a challenge makes much more sense than the crap Toyotaro wrote him in the manga. In fact, the manga in general has far worse powerscaling than the anime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31DC7quEm8M

There is nothing to suggest anything plausible for 17 & Roshi to get that strong either. We can assume he did nothing but hunt poachers because thats all hes been ever shown to do since the Buu arc. Anything in between that is more appealing to hyperbole. You can't just claim something makes sense while you make up your own evidence to fill in a blank. Thats exactly why the people who love to exaggerate potential and power when they call it "scaling" outside the series are also making a mess of discussions. Its just as baseless to claim 17 did anything more than what we consistently know he was doing. It would also be just as ridiculous to have him fight some random god level enemy to justify it too, because you know that would just be a bad plot insert. If it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. Massive suppression is also a bad argument. With Freeza, Toriyama was lazy and though just him saying Freeza never trained was his loophole. It wasn't. It was just for the sake of explaining the scenario, despite how bad it was. The same movie where Freeza got excited over simply doubling his suppressed first form's power level.

Again you are wrong. You are projecting baseless limitations on what those the characters can do when Toriyama himself never put those limits on them in the first place.
Its established that 17 and 18 (without training) are naturally stronger than Freeza (without training). So if Freeza had the potential to reach god-level with training then there's no reason why 17 can't do the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuAG9aOtnMU

If it is outright stated that 17 trained throughout the years then it is not your place to deny a stated fact. There is no internal reason why 17 and Roshi couldn't get as strong as they are. All "arguments" boil down to you just complaining about these you don't like without giving any objective proof why it shouldn't be possible.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Super features more and better character development, better animation (on average), superior fights, better antagonists, 3 arcs that surpass all of GT's, more and better contributions to the lore, more substance, better directing, etc. Its no contest.

Now thats BS. Aside from this being your opinion alone and just a claim you seem to think making is on inception irrefutable,that gain is a gross and clearly biased collective one at that. I said Super has better fight choreography over all but again, that changes with the storyboarders and animatiors.

This so hilariously false by every single standard viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41731

You're citing someone else's opinion to claim your agreement makes it factual? Whats hilarious is that all the points made are vague, and easily have counter points to them as the first reply said. Are you serious?

Character development is debatable as well. In GT the only characters that develop are Pan & Goku, which were the featured characters of the story. Super develops Vegeta, Gohan and Freeza but everyone else in the main cast remained static or thrown away no differently. In GT everyone else retired. So, meh.

However to say it has more lore blatantly ignores my previous response to that claim again. I said Super has added plot devices and new characters as a requirement for a new series, but all of what is added are stand alone concepts. Their relevance is to the beholder. Though to act as if Super has more substance from new content alone is again, superficial, shallow and pious. What did Super do with the time rings? The book of Namek legends? God ki? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Your claim of it having substance is solely on your own impression of the content. If I thought Cabba was the best thing ever, I'd be just as biased to claim he's the deepest character in Super just because I (hypothetically) like him over others. Thats your logic.

Better direction? Laughable statement. Super was purely under a time crunch and started off as just a cash-in. 2 terrible movie retelling and a filler episode as your starting point? Better direction you say?

Better villains? Again Subjective opinion. Zamasu was the only villain in Super. A good villain yes, but his arc was no better than the situation of the Super 17 arc was in GT. To say hands down without even making an argument on that is where the bias shows again. The Zamasu arc itself was weak and messy.

How is the first episode/chapter of Super a plothole? You gave no example

Goku getting money from Mr. Satan for beating Buu, despite the wish to erase the Earth's memory of Buu the muddled concept of the Beerus prophecy. Though I can be just as lazy: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/H ... nBallSuper Here are your plotholes to your standard.

Modern Fan magazines, fan communities and fanfiction still existed back then since the 60's. It is foolish to deny that. We know through sources how the DB community saw GT back then they were mostly unenthusiastic because GT sucked that much to them.

I never said fanbases didn't exist back then. I was saying there was no hype machine that the youtubers do now to promote GT and rationalize everything it's criticized on with headcanon videos and fanfic readings or debates, as what Super is given. When people disliked GT there was no discussion or damage control or outlets of people pushing their hype-blinders, it was just in a magazine as a statement and thus it was regarded as bad, just like how game reviews worked. People weren't unenthusiastic because it sucked, people were just as ignorant then as they are about DB now, they were just unchallenged until it became a meme. Try making Super sucks meme and flame wars ensue.

Claiming Super has no story is so hilariously false that it discredits everything you have to say. You are making a strawman of DBS fans. The DBS fandom is actually the most objectively critical of the DB fandom. We don't see them eat up everything the show does.

What does stating a common conclusion that Super had no story, have to do with Super's fanbase? Thats not a strawman because its my conclusion, not a fabrication of someone else's. How does me stating Super have no story as my conclusion, discredit my prior statements? Its well consistent with the fact I dislike Super. Please tell me where I am discredited by that opinion, or do you only think it has a story in your headcanon storyboard? Instead of just saying my responses are 'hilariously discredited' by your word along, how about considering what terms are before you assert them?

And there is nothing "trivial" about most of the character moments in Super. It actually gave more development to most of the side cast than most of Z did and especially all of GT. And it actually had more substance to it in some parts than half of Z and all of GT. You are just in denial.

That depends on what you are comparing. A lot of the character uses before the TOP was indeed trivial and most of what the plot prior to the actual tournament was in Toriyama's plot.

BS. Reception is a major part of why GT ended when it did. Even now, GT continues to have the lowest average review score on anime and TV review sites like MyAnimeList and IMDB.

You said GT's reception is why it was cancelled and I said, no it wasn't. review sites are also user dependent and nothing is unanimous, and IMDB reviews aren't even credible. You can read casual, uninformed or just ignorant people complaining about something straight from reaction over actual analysis and claim something is something it isn't. Where as MyAnimeList is inconsistent. People rated Super highly on its first episode simply because DB was back, then you read the reviews its mixed with people praising it fort that or people who hate Super. I care more about the content of what people are reviewing Super on, not the general median. Your logic is no different from using IGN as a source to define something's quality.

And your nostalgia argument is hypocritical. GT itself was filled with fanservice attempts and the choice to make Goku a kid again itself was blatant fanservice to early DB fans according to the writers. The bad quality of GT itself was part of why the franchise fatigue continued because GT failed to get people interested in DB again.

Toei wanted Goku to be a kid for years but Toriyama protested against keeping him a kid. When Toei was in control, they wanted to bank on early DB and wanted to keep him in where they thought the series was highest received, that is not uncommon executive meddling. Thats pretty muithe only time I can think of where something in GT was done explicitly for marketing. I don't know what you're claiming with it being "filled with fanservice". Correlating events with Z filler is not fanservice. They were recognized concepts. Giving us transformations left and right because they sell toys is fanservice. Giving us an evil Goku because he as the king of fanfic stories is market appeal. Thats fanservice.

And there is nothing standalone about Super. RoF arc happens because of the Namek arc. The U6 arc happens because the RoF arc. The Black happens because of both that and the Android arc. And finally the ToP arc was indirectly cause by the events of the Black arc as revealed in Super's last episode. So everything in Super connects to itself and the story of Z.

What are you talking about? The ROF arc happened because of a metal song tributing Freeza. It had nothing to do with Namek. It only referenced where Freeza held his grudge. It started after he died on Earth. Plot-wise it has nothing to do with Namek. The U6 arc happened because Champa was jealous of Beerus' food service.I don't recall it having anything to do with ROF outside of the manga trying to tie it. It didn't. The Black arc does not reference ROF whatsoever, nor has anything to do with the Android arc. The time travel thing against Trunks was a red herring. It was just using something to blame Trunks for. Thats like claiming the Super 17 arc was because of Cell just because they mention him and use 17's body. It wasn't. The TOP is debatable. It was specifically set up because off the black and U6 arc, but the ending was just shoved in. Friendship and Trust BS has nothing to do with the reason Black came to be. It was just give some stupid, climatic happy ending. If that was true 17 had no business being the winner, and the forced rule of him having to wish back everything or else everything dies was a stupid contradiction.

Maybe you don't get the "GT sucks" meme being the thing people regurgitate despite their arguments having double standards in their logic or not even being credible, like bitching about SS4 having eye-make up but not bitching about Majin vegeta having the same thing. Or Goku getting magic pants in SS4 as if people wanted him to be naked for the sake of being literal-minded. Right?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Wrong again. Just cause Toriyama originally intended something to be a certain way doesn't mean that way is better.

Thats not what I said. His intent still has more weight to your preference. Just because you like that Toei scaled him up looks cool to you doesn't mean anything. The intent was under his own power script. Thus using the anime to claim anything against it is rhetorical. It was off script.

Making Zamasu fodder is a really bad idea because he's supposed to be the main antagonist. Would it have been better if A19 and A20 were the only villains of the Android arc? Would it have been have better if SSJ was only a 10x multiplier even though that wouldn't make any sense since that's weaker than KKx20? Many of the best things about DB(Z) were the result of changes by the editing staff.

You mean his editors correcting him or encouraging him to go back to the drawingboard? Something he lacks now? Toei changing something and making it ridiculous is not a good application. You're trying to equate his editors saving the Android saga and SS to Toei just doing whatever they wanted around with Zamasu?

And in case you forgot, Vegito is in the Super manga too so there goes that hypocritical argument.

How is that hypocritical? I know hes in the manga, Toyotaro proposed him and it was appropriate. So? I didn't say anything about Merged Zamasu being around as strog as Blue Vegito (somehow). Most of his nonsense happened before that.

Your agruments about Merged Zamasu in the anime are extremely shallow and petty. It was never stated anywhere that Supreme Kais couldn't do much of the stuff he did and none of his extra abilities in the anime cause any problems for the narrative so you are nothing to complain about. Black and Zamasu are written to be combat geniuses

Again with the "if there is room for my headcanon, then thats the explanation" claims? That combat "genius/prodigy" nonsense has been thrown around so much in Super it really means nothing but just giving shortcuts now. You can't just claim X is a "genius" for automatic accomplishments.

Merged Zamasu giving SSB Vegito a challenge makes much more sense than the crap Toyotaro wrote him in the manga. In fact, the manga in general has far worse powerscaling than the anime.

The difference between them in the anime wasn't that big either. For the most part Vegito was beating him in both instances. The anime again was more cinematic, it wasn't stated Zamasu gave him an actual challenge.

Again you are wrong. You are projecting baseless limitations on what those the characters can do when Toriyama himself never put those limits on them in the first place.

No, you are inflating them with baseless hypothetical insinuations around the fact that Super has no real training arcs and just throws power ups out for the sake of catch up. None of this would be an issue if Goku did not use blue against 17 like he didn't in the manga, and just giving a better plot for Freeza to get power instead of cutting corners. Thats all it is. Your inflation to rationalize that is apart of the hype-bias which leads your defence of it.

Its established that 17 and 18 (without training) are naturally stronger than Freeza (without training). So if Freeza had the potential to reach god-level with training then there's no reason why 17 can't do the same

It already didn't make sense for that already, why would it make sense for Freeza to do the same thing? If Freeza was able to do that it makes te whole SS fear thing ridiculous. Saiyans would be dust to him before and after the training. If the scaling ruins the story its bad scaling. I couldn't care less about how cool you think it would be.

If it is outright stated that 17 trained throughout the years then it is not your place to deny a stated fact. There is no internal reason why 17 and Roshi couldn't get as strong as they are. All "arguments" boil down to you just complaining about these you don't like without giving any objective proof why it shouldn't be possible.

Are you kidding me? The internal reason is thus why would Roshi not be strong enough to fight Nappa or Vegeta then? What could he do all day with Turtle that could boost him up that much? Right? Just secret training though, correct? Were all the characters lying when they say they're not strong enough to win a fight in Z then?

[Rakurai]

BS. Reception is a major part of why GT ended when it did. Even now, GT continues to have the lowest average review score on anime and TV review sites like MyAnimeList and IMDB. And your nostalgia argument is hypocritical. GT itself was filled with fanservice attempts and the choice to make Goku a kid again itself was blatant fanservice to early DB fans according to the writers. The bad quality of GT itself was part of why the franchise fatigue continued because GT failed to get people interested in DB again.

Careful of what you claim here.

Anikore's rating for DBGT: 71.1 https://www.anikore.jp/anime_review/234/

Anikore's rating for DBS: 56.9 https://www.anikore.jp/anime/9700/

For the record, Anikore rates DBZ at 79.8. Anikore is the equivalent of MAL in Japan. The Japanese fanbase (at the very least, those who rate like to rate their anime) seems to have a different viewpoint of GT relative to Super.

[Rakurai]

It already didn't make sense for that already, why would it make sense for Freeza to do the same thing? If Freeza was able to do that it makes te whole SS fear thing ridiculous. Saiyans would be dust to him before and after the training. If the scaling ruins the story its bad scaling. I couldn't care less about how cool you think it would be.

To be fair, Toriyama retconned the entire Super Saiyan legend to include Super Saiyan God somehow (in the Jaco manga he mentions rumors of a Super Saiyan God). If the film does star the original LSSJ, it would make Freeza's fear more justified.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It already didn't make sense for that; so why would it make sense for Freeza to do the same thing? If Freeza was able to do that it makes the whole SS fear thing ridiculous. Saiyans would be dust to him before and after the training. If the scaling ruins the story its bad scaling. I couldn't care less about how cool you think it would be.

To be fair, Toriyama retconned the entire Super Saiyan legend to include Super Saiyan God somehow (in the Jaco manga he mentions rumors of a Super Saiyan God). If the film does star the original LSSJ, it would make Freeza's fear more justified.

That shouldn't have happened either to be honest. Toriyama shouldn't shove things in like that just to give them relevance. If it were up to me SSG would have been brand new, and original as the result of Goku & Vegeta's peak on their path. Freeza in his personality would get jealous and just want to become a god himself after he is told Goku fought Beerus. Simple. No need for the "I was told to never fight but, but I'm the strongest in the universe" stuff. No need for convoluted legends.

[kn83]

Now thats BS. Aside from this being your opinion alone and just a claim you seem to think making is on inception irrefutable,that gain is a gross and clearly biased collective one at that. I said Super has better fight choreography over all but again, that changes with the storyboarders and animatiors.

Collective? My views are based on my own judgement, not the opinions of the fanbase.

You're citing someone else's opinion to claim your agreement makes it factual? Whats hilarious is that all the points made are vague, and easily have counter points to them as the first reply said. Are you serious?

Character development is debatable as well. In GT the only characters that develop are Pan & Goku, which were the featured characters of the story. Super develops Vegeta, Gohan and Freeza but everyone else in the main cast remained static or thrown away no differently. In GT everyone else retired. So, meh.

However to say it has more lore blatantly ignores my previous response to that claim again. I said Super has added plot devices and new characters as a requirement for a new series, but all of what is added are stand alone concepts. Their relevance is to the beholder. Though to act as if Super has more substance from new content alone is again, superficial, shallow and pious. What did Super do with the time rings? The book of Namek legends? God ki? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Your claim of it having substance is solely on your own impression of the content. If I thought Cabba was the best thing ever, I'd be just as biased to claim he's the deepest character in Super just because I (hypothetically) like him over others. Thats your logic.

1. You are making the "change equals development" fallacy. The human cast, the Androids and Piccolo also got more focus and development in Super than in GT.

2. I said Super had more substance because it has more character development, that's my logic, which you can't seem to process.

Better direction? Laughable statement. Super was purely under a time crunch and started off as just a cash-in. 2 terrible movie retelling and a filler episode as your starting point? Better direction you say?

Better villains? Again Subjective opinion. Zamasu was the only villain in Super. A good villain yes, but his arc was no better than the situation of the Super 17 arc was in GT. To say hands down without even making an argument on that is where the bias shows again. The Zamasu arc itself was weak and messy.

1. Name one episode in GT that was better directed than even ep. 57 of Super. You can't, and that's not even the best of Super.

2. The Black arc is clearly better than the Buu saga and any GT arc, even with its flaws. The Super 17 arc was just a rehash of Fusion Reborn.

Goku getting money from Mr. Satan for beating Buu, despite the wish to erase the Earth's memory of Buu the muddled concept of the Beerus prophecy. Though I can be just as lazy: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/H ... nBallSuper Here are your plotholes to your standard.

Mr. Satan likely got the money before the wish to erase Earth's memory of Buu. Remember that it takes a year to use the DBs each time, so its no big deal since it has no bearing on any of Super's plots. That's nothing compared to serious plotholes like the Black Star DBs in GT.

Plus, the complaints in the Super page are mostly petty and shallow like Trunks hair color. . While nearly all of the complaints in the GT page are plot related.

I never said fanbases didn't exist back then. I was saying there was no hype machine that the youtubers do now to promote GT and rationalize everything it's criticized on with headcanon videos and fanfic readings or debates, as what Super is given. When people disliked GT there was no discussion or damage control or outlets of people pushing their hype-blinders, it was just in a magazine as a statement and thus it was regarded as bad, just like how game reviews worked. People weren't unenthusiastic because it sucked, people were just as ignorant then as they are about DB now, they were just unchallenged until it became a meme. Try making Super sucks meme and flame wars ensue.

Pop culture hype machines are as old as pop culture itself. Its older than the internet. DB(Z) got plenty of hype from the Japanese media for most of its run, complete with theory communities, debates on the series quality an whatnot. It was no different from today and you are delusional for thinking so. GT didn't have the hype that DB(Z) had because the Japanese were largely apathetic of it.

That depends on what you are comparing. A lot of the character uses before the TOP was indeed trivial and most of what the plot prior to the actual tournament was in Toriyama's plot.

What the hell does this mean?

Toei wanted Goku to be a kid for years but Toriyama protested against keeping him a kid. When Toei was in control, they wanted to bank on early DB and wanted to keep him in where they thought the series was highest received, that is not uncommon executive meddling. Thats pretty muithe only time I can think of where something in GT was done explicitly for marketing. I don't know what you're claiming with it being "filled with fanservice". Correlating events with Z filler is not fanservice. They were recognized concepts. Giving us transformations left and right because they sell toys is fanservice. Giving us an evil Goku because he as the king of fanfic stories is market appeal. Thats fanservice.

BS again. There is no evidence of Toriyama protesting anything in the development of GT. All he did was come up with the shows premise and did some character designs. He let Toei handle the rest, and there is nothing about Toriyama saying he didn't want to turn Goku into a kid again in GT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am7Zmwody7g
Him wanting to make Goku an adult in the original manga (because he felt it was easier to draw him fighting that way according to an interview) was a different thing from Toei making Goku a kid in GT (which he never commented on).

Fanservice is by definition anything designed to please the audience regardless of any other function. The fact that the writers of GT admitted that they made Goku a kid to appeal to Early DB fans (and had no real importance to the plot) means that it was undeniably fanservice. GT is filled with blatant call backs and fanservice that serves no function to the story, you can keep your head in the sand and deny it all you want.

SSJ Rage Trunks was there to give Trunks a more role in his own story. In Dragonball how strong you are determines how important to the plot you are (unless you are Bulma). By giving him that form he gets to stay relevant in his own arc. Blue Evolution exist to show that Vegeta broke his limits and to keep him a rival to Goku. While evil Goku is a fanfic cliche, Goku Black is still far better developed and written than Cell, Buu and any GT villain.

What are you talking about? The ROF arc happened because of a metal song tributing Freeza. It had nothing to do with Namek. It only referenced where Freeza held his grudge. It started after he died on Earth. Plot-wise it has nothing to do with Namek. The U6 arc happened because Champa was jealous of Beerus' food service.I don't recall it having anything to do with ROF outside of the manga trying to tie it. It didn't. The Black arc does not reference ROF whatsoever, nor has anything to do with the Android arc. The time travel thing against Trunks was a red herring. It was just using something to blame Trunks for. Thats like claiming the Super 17 arc was because of Cell just because they mention him and use 17's body. It wasn't. The TOP is debatable. It was specifically set up because off the black and U6 arc, but the ending was just shoved in. Friendship and Trust BS has nothing to do with the reason Black came to be. It was just give some stupid, climatic happy ending. If that was true 17 had no business being the winner, and the forced rule of him having to wish back everything or else everything dies was a stupid contradiction.

These are the worst arugements I've ever read

1. In-universe wise, If the Namek arc never happened then Freeza wouldn't have any grudge against them in the first place, meaning no RoF arc. Its simple logic (which is apparently too much for you)

2. If it wasn't for Trunks timetraveling (which created those extra timelines in the first place) the Black arc would have never happen in first because none of the events in the franchise after would have happen if Trunks didn't start timetraveling. Black and Zamasu were right in saying its all Trunks' fault. Your Super 17 analogy is ridiculous and nonsensical.

3. Your ToP claims are also dumb. You I meant was that the Grand Priest revealed that the reason why they held the ToP in the first place was because they were beginning to think Zamasu was right all along. So the whole thing was a test to see if Zamasu was right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMXWWrUgV38

[kn83]

Thats not what I said. His intent still has more weight to your preference. Just because you like that Toei scaled him up looks cool to you doesn't mean anything. The intent was under his own power script. Thus using the anime to claim anything against it is rhetorical. It was off script.

I used logic to prove why anime Zamasu was better done, you are being the biased up. You are still assuming Toriyama originally intending something to be a certain way makes it better. It doesn't. Making Merged Zamasu fodder is an all around bad idea because it takes any intimidation factor away from him as a main antagonist.

The 90s Bardock special was a Toei creation and its great. DB Minus was a Toriyama creation and its garbage. See?

Original intentions=/=final product. Toriyama changes his mind at the last minute all the time so that doesn't carry much weight at all. Remember when he intend Gohan to be the new protagonist? Remember when he intended to end the series after the Pilaf arc? Remember when he intended 19 and 20 to be the only Androids?

You mean his editors correcting him or encouraging him to go back to the drawingboard? Something he lacks now? Toei changing something and making it ridiculous is not a good application. You're trying to equate his editors saving the Android saga and SS to Toei just doing whatever they wanted around with Zamasu?

I gave clear and logically evidence of why Anime Zamasu is better done than Manga Zamasu yet you are still in denial.

How is that hypocritical? I know hes in the manga, Toyotaro proposed him and it was appropriate. So? I didn't say anything about Merged Zamasu being around as strog as Blue Vegito (somehow). Most of his nonsense happened before that.

You can't even keep your own arguments straight. The point was that Vegito wasn't in Toriyama's original script, just like how Kale and Caulifla weren't.

Again with the "if there is room for my headcanon, then thats the explanation" claims? That combat "genius/prodigy" nonsense has been thrown around so much in Super it really means nothing but just giving shortcuts now. You can't just claim X is a "genius" for automatic accomplishments.

What headcanon? You are confusing direct statements from the show and Toriyama himself with headcanon and projecting limits that never existed. Characters in Dragonball create new techniques all the time in the throughout the franchise. Vegeta for example created all of his abilities off screen with no explanation in Z like the Final Flash and Big Bang Attack. None of Gotenk's unique techniques (Ghost Kamikaze) ever got an explaination of how he learned to do them. That's no different from what Black and Zamasu do with their abilities.

The difference between them in the anime wasn't that big either. For the most part Vegito was beating him in both instances. The anime again was more cinematic, it wasn't stated Zamasu gave him an actual challenge.

Anyone with eyes can see that in the anime Vegito still needed to go all out to beat Merged Zamasu (who was able to get some hits on Vegito) while in the manga Vegito just fodderizes M.Zamasu with zero effort. They are not the same.

No, you are inflating them with baseless hypothetical insinuations around the fact that Super has no real training arcs and just throws power ups out for the sake of catch up. None of this would be an issue if Goku did not use blue against 17 like he didn't in the manga, and just giving a better plot for Freeza to get power instead of cutting corners. Thats all it is. Your inflation to rationalize that is apart of the hype-bias which leads your defence of it.

Dude, you don't need a whole arc to level people up. Character get stronger offscreen do to training all the time throughout the whole series. Hell, Goku unlocked SSJ3 by just training ofscreen, same with Vegeta getting SSJ2. Goku using SSJ3 on 17 still makes him god-level by scaling (because of the whole base> BoG SSG thing, which only the most delusional fans deny at this point) so that's still an extreme power boost from training in the manga for him.

You seem to have a problem with the real life fact (and one acknowledged by DB since day one) that some people are just naturally better than others and are capable of achieving more with less. There is nothing objectively wrong with some character getting stronger faster than others, especially if it has a biological explanation to it.

It already didn't make sense for that already, why would it make sense for Freeza to do the same thing? If Freeza was able to do that it makes te whole SS fear thing ridiculous. Saiyans would be dust to him before and after the training. If the scaling ruins the story its bad scaling. I couldn't care less about how cool you think it would be.

Freeza neither knew nor believed that he couild get any better with training and thought that his birth power level was the best it gonna get for him. This was stated in the RoF arc itself. I've said nothing about it being cool, you are putting words in my mouth again.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Piccolo also got more focus and development in Super than in GT.

No he didn't. Their roles were different between the series. Piccolo made a sacrifice choosing to remain dead to protect the earth, regardless of if the reasoning for it makes sense to you, in context that was a conclusive turn to his character and he said farewell to Gohan and took the Earth exploding to initiate his death. In Super he didn't do much of anything beyond stand around, babysit, train Gohan again and fight with him once in a significant match up. I don't see how that is "more" focused development. Piccolo has always been a tool since the Buu arc. That logic is no different than saying Tenshinhan developed just being on screen. Nothing was solely focused on Piccolo but one scene of him seeing the fused Nameks of U6 in his head. Call that a character moment if you will but its no more than what GT did.

I said Super had more substance because it has more character development, that's my logic, which you can't seem to process.

That was not the only thing you said. You said that Super had better story, better animation, etc. etc. Over GT you told me was a fact. Your definition of development is also one squarely subjective as you claim usage equals development, despite that the GT humans were retired along with 18, and 17 had no setting given to him from Toriyama at the time. So its a false comparison of unequal presentations of the characters.

Name one episode in GT that was better directed than even ep. 57 of Super. You can't, and that's not even the best of Super.

Thats the most biased proposition I've read.

Black arc is clearly better than the Buu saga and any GT arc, even with its flaws. The Super 17 arc was just a rehash of Fusion Reborn.

Again, your opinion that generalizes each arc you compare with your own favored one. Clearly better? I need elaboration. Not affirmative adjectives. Also, who said the Super 17 arc was good?

Mr. Satan likely got the money before the wish to erase Earth's memory of Buu. Remember that it takes a year to use the DBs each time, so its no big deal since it has no bearing on any of Super's plots. That's nothing compared to serious plotholes like the Black Star DBs in GT.

There are more plotholes in Super than just that. Like the contrivances of time travel, or how now they can somehow program Cell's time machine to go in between timelines? GT's plotholes just lack the details to explain the plausibility of the concepts. Super just changes whatever it needs to fit a plot device.

Plus, the complaints in the Super page are mostly petty and shallow like Trunks hair color. . While nearly all of the complaints in the GT page are plot related.

Oh, is that a strawman of the Super criticism you constructed? People complaining about Trunks' hair are just overreacting and not well informed.

It was no different from today and you are delusional for thinking so. GT didn't have the hype that DB(Z) had because the Japanese were largely apathetic of it.

The Japanese fandom and western fandom don't share the same views nor get the same content. The western fans for example love Kai because its a better dub to their standard than Z, the Japanese fans don't like Kai because they never needed it. Japanese fans have always had DB content around them more culturally presented than Western fans where DB is very niche and near irrelevance outside of familiarity with Toonami. Japan series fatigue along with Toriyama. The western fans don't get series fatigue with DB. Never had. Again, the reason for different attitudes has been explained, its not because of GT's quality like you're still trying to shove in.

BS again. There is no evidence of Toriyama protesting anything in the development of GT. All he did was come up with the shows premise and did some character designs. He let Toei handle the rest, and there is nothing about Toriyama saying he didn't want to turn Goku into a kid again in GT. Him wanting to make Goku an adult in the original manga (because he felt it was easier to draw him fighting that way according to an interview) was a different thing from Toei making Goku a kid in GT (which he never commented on).

Toei making Goku into a kid was a clear return to their marketing plan when they got control over the creative production, they wanted Goku to remain a kid. Toriyama didn't. There is evidence of that for DB, but GT trying to capitalize off DB by turning Goku into a kid is clearly comparable reasoning on Toei's intent. They wanted Goku to remain a kid because they thought that was how the character sold.

Fanservice is by definition anything designed to please the audience regardless of any other function. The fact that the writers of GT admitted that they made Goku a kid to appeal to Early DB fans (and had no real importance to the plot) means that it was undeniably fanservice.

Err no. Unless you choose to ignore the fact they used Goku's kid body as a plot point on how he couldn't sustain SS3, why fighting Baby was difficult for him and why Pan initially didn't respect him at all while he was a kid; then you say it had no real importance. GT didn't just throw in nods for the sake of it. Unlike Super where it featured nonsense like Vegeta using the Final Explosion to destroy a Hakai ball only because "he is much stronger now" so that, he can not only do that but survive a suicide move at the last second. Completely unnecessary. Or Goku Black being the long overdone fan-character evil Goku expy? You act as if Super never did its own fanservice but claim GT did its own solely for nothing relevant.

GT is filled with blatant call backs and fanservice that serves no function to the story, you can keep your head in the sand and deny it all you want.

Blatantly False. I guess Baby's conceptual call back didn't have any plot relevance right? Or 18 bluffing 17 about her chest-bomb had no relevance either right? Or Goku's Dragonfist through 17 meant nothing too despite them stating exactly the set up? Or the wishes the Shadow Dragons were made from had no plot connection either?

SSJ Rage Trunks was there to give Trunks a more role in his own story.

Now thats a clear grasp at straws there, to claim that. He didn't need it. Toei did it because they thought it was cool just like SSBE for Vegeta that both serviced no plot purpose and only implies the other factoid that Transformations make more Toys. It literally came in at the last end of the arc invented by a bad writer, if the names do not already hint this.

In Dragonball how strong you are determines how important to the plot you are (unless you are Bulma).

Thats more recent. Toriyama said he inserts characters based on if he thinks they can be useful to a scene, scenario or a plot device on the spot. His method gave more room for character rotation. Toei is the source that just uses characters based on marketing or obvious plot necessity. Future Timeline story? Requires Trunks, Dragonball story requires Bulma. Who do people want to see fight that can transform too? Goku and Vegeta. ROF set this in motion.

By giving him that form he gets to stay relevant in his own arc. Blue Evolution exist to show that Vegeta broke his limits and to keep him a rival to Goku. While evil Goku is a fanfic cliche, Goku Black is still far better developed and written than Cell, Buu and any GT villain.

Nonsense. Thats not what kept him relevant in the Android and Cell arc. The transformation was forced in for a ridiculous ending they thought was cool.
SSBE was still a bad way to go about that character point for Vegeta because it again was just a forced out trivial transformation. Not actual development. You can throw on a transformation on anyone for any reason and to the logic of the fandom thats thus development. Also, evil Goku being Goku black is what it is, regardless if they ended up creating a far better concept with it. Its still fanservice as you claim GT was invalidated for, except Super did more based on Marketing, not simple nods or ideas. Goku black being the most developed villain you say though is where the bias again starts. If I missed something Goku black is no different than Cell when it comes to just elaborate boasting about themselves endlessly. Cell had context for it. Goku black just thought he was the best thing ever created. Based on his own opinion. Fleshed out fine, not "more developed". Super 17 at the least developed through 18 reminding him he did not want to be controlled in exchange for power, and Baby's character was entirely around his own Revenge Before Reason characterization. Just generally claiming Goku black is the best ever as well as you still referencing the arc being better than everything else again, shows your clear bias within your argument's judgment.

These are the worst arugements I've ever read

Here we go...

1. In-universe wise, If the Namek arc never happened then Freeza wouldn't have any grudge against them in the first place, meaning no RoF arc. Its simple logic (which is apparently too much for you)

Well obviously thats where his encounter with them started but him coming to Earth with King cold was essentially his attempt at revenge for that defeat. ROF was a poorly written retread long after his series irrelevancy.

[quote="kn83" If it wasn't for Trunks timetraveling (which created those extra timelines in the first place) the Black arc would have never happen in first place[/quote]
That wasn't even the original reasoning for Zamasu hating mortals. He said he hated how barbaric they are to him and how they were just let free to be so. Trunks would clearly agree about some mortals but he tried to fix it. This was inserted to now be against metaphysical law? The whole thing was just Zamasu being a contradictory hypocrite. He wants to break rules to fix what he doesn't like. Its considered divine justice. Trunks does it and hes a sinner. He tells Trunks its illegal to time travel backward to mess with stuff. He himself does it when Gowasu says Supreme Kai cant do it either. And before you claim its brilliant as if that was intended, it wasmn't. It was never brought up as the flaw. It was concluded that mortals can be good when they work together. Period. Just like the BS of the TOP's conclusion.

because none of the events in the franchise after would have happen if Trunks didn't start timetraveling.

Then why would Goku Black attack Trunks' own timeline (even though nothing he did affected it anyway which defeats the reasoning to why this is a sin if all he did was create a parallel timeline as if none others exist, right?) if nothing he did benefited him and not attack the timeline he created from his travel? Because logic? Because Toei just wanted to use Future Trunks?

Black and Zamasu were right in saying its all Trunks' fault. Your Super 17 analogy is ridiculous and nonsensical

Fault for what? Nothing Trunks did had any after effects on anything, let alone relating to them. It was never established why creating new time-rings was an issue, or why only U10 has them. Let alone why U10 has them in direct response to U7, or why this was never deemed an issue by Elder kai? Ridiculous huh?

Your ToP claims are also dumb. You I meant was that the Grand Priest revealed that the reason why they held the ToP in the first place was because they were beginning to think Zamasu was right all along. So the whole thing was a test to see if Zamasu was right.

Headcanon. Zamasu was not once brought up for that reasoning, the whole time prior everyone blamed Goku for them all being there and the Grand Priest came up with some arbitrary BS about mortal level ratios and whatever. Nothing was stated to be a direct consequence to Zamasu. That is your correlation. I recall the Grand Priest saying that their only choice was to bring back all the universes or else everyone is deleted for no reason but just some dumb chain yanking. How would they get that wishing for a boat is equal to evil acts when they were just told that it was Zeno's judgement saying there were too many universes as his reason? Let alone risking deleting themselves just questioning this? How is this not contrived?

[Exline]

Ngl I feel really bad for users when they get banned ;( no matter the way they act. RIP kn83

Super definitely cause of new characters introduced, and some solid storytelling on some occassions.

I felt GT had some great ideas for their Sagas, but horribly executed. As well as the fights being incredibly boring.

[Rakurai]

That shouldn't have happened either to be honest. Toriyama shouldn't shove things in like that just to give them relevance. If it were up to me SSG would have been brand new, and original as the result of Goku & Vegeta's peak on their path. Freeza in his personality would get jealous and just want to become a god himself after he is told Goku fought Beerus. Simple. No need for the "I was told to never fight but, but I'm the strongest in the universe" stuff. No need for convoluted legends.

Well I agree with your sentiment, the entire reason why Freeza was afraid of Saiyans was because they could potentially overthrow him based on the original SSJ legend. By making it so that his gains from training are so enormously ridiculous really undermines the lore from the Namek saga. Hence why RoF was a bad idea and Freeza should have never been brought back (not to mention his golden form is really redundant).

Ngl I feel really bad for users when they get banned ;( no matter the way they act. RIP kn83

Super definitely cause of new characters introduced, and some solid storytelling on some occassions.

I felt GT had some great ideas for their Sagas, but horribly executed. As well as the fights being incredibly boring.

Honestly, Super is in the same boat for 'great ideas, horrible execution' shtick. At least when it comes to the arcs that really matter, i.e. the Future Trunks arc and the ToP arc.

[Timetraveller]

Ngl I feel really bad for users when they get banned ;( no matter the way they act. RIP kn83

Super definitely cause of new characters introduced, and some solid storytelling on some occassions.

I felt GT had some great ideas for their Sagas, but horribly executed. As well as the fights being incredibly boring.

In terms of story telling, the only arc that really had a story to tell was the Zamasu arc and even that was executed poorly. The frequent use of Deus ex machina and the controversial ending were what ruined it for me. The other arcs had very thin movie-like plots like Beerus appearing out of nowhere and wanting to fight someone or tournament arcs which are basically excuses for non-stop fighting without the need for an actual plot. They're bad ideas, poorly executed. It introduced a whole bunch of characters (a good thing) but never developed them properly (maybe besides Whis and Beerus who was almost always in the background fawning over food).

GT may have had poor execution but the ideas were at least refreshing and the storytelling much better executed at least more often than Super. Planet exploration, ideas surrounding saiyan history and the overuse of the dragonballs were fantastic. It achieved much more in its run than Super did in the same number of episodes. In the first 60 episodes, the only fights from Super that stood out to me were the Goku vs Hit fight and the Goku/Trunks vs Zamasu/Black. The number of poorly animated or drawn fights outnumbered the good fights.

[Bergamo]

The Dragonball series started when a girl wanted to use the power of an eternal dragon to wish for a boyfriend. Since then The Dragon's power has been sought out by people looking for trivial things like panties or height, and people with malicious intentions that desire world domination. Separate from these people was a boy who only wanted to see the world and use the Dragonballs to help his friends.


After Shenron is killed, his creator, Kami, says that he pondered wether or not it would be better to leave Shenron dead, but he decides that as long as there exists a few individuals who use the power of The Dragon to right their wrongs and help others than the Dragonballs have a right to exist. I guess Kami was wrong about his own creation though, because apparently using Shenron's wish to revive millions of innocent people still causes negative energy to build in the Dragonballs. What? You would think a series that reverted Goku into a kid again would know the first thing about the original Dragonball.


In conclusion, Super wins.

[Cetra]

The Dragonball series started when a girl wanted to use the power of an eternal dragon to wish for a boyfriend. Since then The Dragon's power has been sought out by people looking for trivial things like panties or height, and people with malicious intentions that desire world domination. Separate from these people was a boy who only wanted to see the world and use the Dragonballs to help his friends.


After Shenron is killed, his creator, Kami, says that he pondered wether or not it would be better to leave Shenron dead, but he decides that as long as there exists a few individuals who use the power of The Dragon to right their wrongs and help others than the Dragonballs have a right to exist. I guess Kami was wrong about his own creation though, because apparently using Shenron's wish to revive millions of innocent people still causes negative energy to build in the Dragonballs. What? You would think a series that reverted Goku into a kid again would know the first thing about the original Dragonball.


In conclusion, Super wins.

It knew about Kaioushin's warning about the Dragon Balls.

[JazzMazz]

How do people feel GT and Super stack up to each other visually, in terms of animation.

I think GT was not particularly well animated. Though its true it did have a decent level of visual consistency to it, with exception of the ever terrible and frequent Last House episode, I also believe that it was more consistently mediocre than anything else. Its mostly inoffensive, but when the highest praise I can give it is that it was mostly inoffensive, I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good thing.

As for Super, despite being really bad in a lot of places, especially in the earlier arcs, at the very least delivered a considerable amount more noteworthy scenes animation wise than GT did. I think this became especially true in the TOP. Although the TOP was falling apart in places, it still delivered some of the best animated, as well as the best animated episode of the franchise in episode 130.


In conclusion, while both series' didn't really progress the franchise visually, or had positive reputations for outstanding visuals, I think Super overall wins in terms of being the generally more animated show, despite its noticeable short comings.

[Saturnine]

The Dragonball series started when a girl wanted to use the power of an eternal dragon to wish for a boyfriend. Since then The Dragon's power has been sought out by people looking for trivial things like panties or height, and people with malicious intentions that desire world domination. Separate from these people was a boy who only wanted to see the world and use the Dragonballs to help his friends.


After Shenron is killed, his creator, Kami, says that he pondered wether or not it would be better to leave Shenron dead, but he decides that as long as there exists a few individuals who use the power of The Dragon to right their wrongs and help others than the Dragonballs have a right to exist. I guess Kami was wrong about his own creation though, because apparently using Shenron's wish to revive millions of innocent people still causes negative energy to build in the Dragonballs. What? You would think a series that reverted Goku into a kid again would know the first thing about the original Dragonball.


In conclusion, Super wins.

Very beautifully put. GT's arc premises contain more examples of this exact kind of how the writers didn't really know the original universe inside-out. The mentality behind writing GT appeared to be that of writing a serialized Toei theatrical movie, really, complete with all the references to filler and theatricals. Those may have been fun in their own right, but they never had Toriyama's spirit, and neither did GT.

[Tai Lung]

I would say that super is to say with 131 episodes had more time to offer more things than gt that was canceled in 64

Participation of characters:
[spoiler]Goku in super and gt
In both being the protagonist was highly participatory but in Gt theft too much camera does not matter as it always won the villain when that was not like that before in super had 2 victories against frieza and jiren but they were better deserved
Piccolo in Super
- Piccolo returned to the fights since he was moved from the arc of cell
- I confront the soldiers of frieza and sacrificed for gohan in the fight which made gohan go back to the fights
- I fight against frost which allowed me to discover the trap of this
- In the zamasu bow, although I do not participate as such his somewhat humorous contribution with the mafuba, which allowed trunks to learn it, it did not work in the end but it was a bit of his contribution
- Piccolo increased his power to the point of facing gohan in ssj2 which also allowed him to train him which would be fundamental for the tournament apart from that he had his eliminations and fought against the manekians of U11
Piccolo in GT
- in gt he really did little or nothing in his first appearance was defeated by baby gohan and then died in the explosion of the planet because they forgot the ...
- I help goku out of hell with magical ability that you do not know where he learned it

Gohan in super
-Although retired I do not hesitate to go to battle against the soldiers of frieza
-It was during all the time he was away training, I allow him to give a big fight in the exhibition tournament
-in the tournament of power had its eliminations and its moments faced the namekians, the U10 and U3 and finally his battle with dyspo
Gohan in GT
- Like piccolo did very little and could barely face to rildo
Of vegeta not even say in super has been almost co-protagonist in gt only participate a bit in the last 2 arcs
Androids, humans even buu had their moment few or many there was a great participation in super thing that in gt had very little[/spoiler]

Creation of own characters

[spoiler]Here super wins by quite beerus, whis, hit, zamasu, cabba, fords, champa, caulifla, jiren, trio of dangers, toppo, dyspo, anilaza etc etc are characters that I found interesting and many if I found them great
Many had time to show some development especially when we started to know the universes
In gt I really only liked Nouva shenron and ledgic[/spoiler]

The battles

[spoiler]Super was more revolutionary in his combats especially with hit that did not use energy attacks and still could face the strongest, hey that in dragon ball is a great avanced
techniques and strategies were used, other characters showed other skills such as black and the oz, lavender and the poison, bergamo and pain adsorption, maggeta and the lava and the super speed of dyspo
In gt although they were limited to the attacks of ki although they showed some new skill ones in the arc of the dragons, they did not get much profit either.[/spoiler]

Villains

[spoiler]Really the villains of gt became very flat and not very nice super 17 only had a good design but the only one that I think was remarkable was Baby especially for the fact that it started as a strange parasite but in itself it is only a guy that seek revenge to then restore your race (sasuke uchiha are you?)

Zamasu / black despite its stumbles in itself a good villain apart from being more complex Zamasu always suffered superiority complex with respect to what surrounded him, observing as the "ningen" (which in context did not refer only to humans but to any creature that is considered itself "person") wasted the wisdom given by the gods for different purposes such as destruction and killing without meaning. However, he raised more genuine ideas such as the role of the gods in punishing mortals for their roles instead of taking a passive role, just observation, which led to the conclusion that it is a sin of the gods not to do nothing.
I think, Zamasu was more ambitious because his Plan Cero Mortales carried out for the entire multiverse, and not only the Universe 10, getting rid of all the kaioshins and hakaishins so as not to have problems in eradicating all mortals, preserving the beauty in the universe. On the other hand the concepts developed using the character of Zamasu they turned out to be more striking and ambitious, coming to give a different point of view to the rigid cosmology of DB.
Other than that, he's the most successful villain in DB, mostly achieving his goals[/spoiler]

Animation and Soundtracks

[spoiler]Here ironically, GT started much better in general, although avanced the sagas the animation of super improved notably, especially in the power tournament looking much better than the chapters of the gt animation would say that they are more or less the same and it depends on the opinion I would say that gt just by little

In the Soundtracks likewise gt was better but from the saga of black begin to improve a lot and at least for me with the theme of "ultimate battle", super > gt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH9u4eZQGk8[/spoiler]

errors and ideas

[spoiler]that it is clear a lot of the baby arc was recycled from Dr. Lychee and the OVA Dragon Ball Z: Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans.
The saga of super 17 a mixture between the movie of janemba and the android arc (very badly executed)
I only consider the saga of the evil dragons a good idea (badly executed)
go back to small goku is a bad idea also to explore a universe where it is supposed that there should be no stronger beings than frieza

with super we have trunks and spirit sword but in gt we have the deus ex machina de goku and the spirit bomb that could defeat omega even though this one attacked and did not hurt a goku (base) without energy and wounded etc etc

at that point they both have errors but they compete with other things[/spoiler]

Well, in general I prefer dragon ball super as I said had more time to offer more things in my opinion

[PsionicWarrior]

I would say that super is to say with 131 episodes had more time to offer more things than gt that was canceled in 64

I say that alone speaks volume lol
Also Super did not end, we have an upcoming movie then the anime will be back at some point, that's no doubt. Marketing move likely.

[sintzu]

I would say that super is to say with 131 episodes had more time to offer more things than gt that was canceled in 64.

Apart from the Baby arc (16-40), the rest of GT was very badly handled so it wouldn't have mattered if they had 200 episodes to work with as the same problems would've most likely accured.

Super did not end, we have an upcoming movie then the anime will be back at some point, that's no doubt. Marketing move likely.

The most likely reason it stopped was to get as many high quality staff members on the movie and to prevent the anime's quality from going downhill due to the lack of quality staff being available to work on it. I think once super returns it'll be better than ever as they'll have pre-production time and a better idea about where things stand.