Which did it better, GT or Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Lord Frieza
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed May 02, 2018 4:26 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:On the subject of Zamasu's origins, while admittedly he has some passing rebalance to Baby and thats really just his white hair (which all kaioshin have) and his stealing of Goku's body, really Zamasu's arc seems like a reworking of Toyable's AF fan comic.

Zamasu being based on East Kaioshin, who in the story become corrupted after being beaten by Buu and left for dead. She was displeased that Kaioshin did not wield the greatest power in the universe and became obsessed with correcting that. She apparently created Frieza with her own DNA and that of Cold but after his defeat tracked down Goku and used his DNA to make a saiyan/kaioshin hybrid named Xicor.

Xicor was Goku's second son, younger then Gohan and older than Goten. He's basically spent his who life being brainwashed by his mother and came to earth to kill everyone so he could clame the title of strongest and rule the universe.

As you can see the basic plot element for both stories are very similur. Plus Xicor's colour scheme of white, green, red and black are all the colours used one way or another for Zamasu and Black and almost completely for Merged Zamasu.
toriyama really refused this when mention that he created to zamasu / black based on kamen raider black

True but you must agree that the similarites are more then a little convinently cowincidental.

Thats not the only possible inspiration either, the year befor Super aired Cyborg 009 vs Devilman had come out with its primary atangonist being a demon/cyborg fusion who's final form was a white haired, angel like being that used lighning attacks. Since Toriyama has made refrance to Go Nagai's work in the past (Devilman, Rocket Punch etc) he must like the mans work and it would not surprise me that he saw the ovas and got some insperation from them.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed May 02, 2018 4:26 pm

Zamasu is cool and all, but people REALLY debate whether he was right or not?
Yes. Allow me to save you the boredom of reading through my hundreds of well-written and in-depth pages analyzing the complex character that is 'Zamasu', but he brings up fascinating and convincing points, such as:

- Why do the Kais allow mortals to desecrate the beauty of their world?
- Why do the Gods allow mortals to break the sacred laws of the Multiverse instead of enforcing them?
- Why did the Gods give mortals reason, the potential for intelligence, and strength?
- Consequently, why do mortals keep throwing away like garbage those sacred gifts, like the Babarians?

I mean, these guys, Beerus, Shin and co., had the power to save thousands of innocents, yet they just let Frieza and his lackeys cause all that destruction. Or Champa just let the Earthlings of his Universe wage war on each others, thus turning Earth into a toxic wasteland devoid of any life. Clearly, the current hierarchy of the Gods is inherently flawed, with the Gods of Destruction basically following their whims, and the Gods of Creation allowing evil because 'It's not our job to deal with evil'. Zamasu had the right idea: give a more proactive role to the Kais, thus allowing them to withstand evil better. I mean, let's not even go over the fact that Gowasu of all people shows Zamasu a planet of rude and aggressive barbarians and then wonders why Zamasu is disappointed by mortals... what a tragically useless master. Or f*cking Goku who doesn't even know how to properly address a Kai. Zamasu was surrounded by gullible fools.
it's not like Magneto or Doctor Doom for villains where they seek a true utopia of peace through
Zamasu remarks throughout the arc that he desires to reshape the Multiverse into a beautiful, splendid and peaceful utopia devoid of violent mortals and weak-willed Gods.
The dude wanted to commit mutli-universal genocide lol
Just like Zen-Oh would have had the winner of the Tournament of Power made a selfish wish, yet I don't see Goku and co. being angry at him. Or about the genocide he committed upon Universe 13-18 just because he was feeling bored one day? At least Zamasu had an actual reason for committing those actions.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Logania » Wed May 02, 2018 6:08 pm

Yes. Allow me to save you the boredom of reading through my hundreds of well-written and in-depth pages analyzing the complex character that is 'Zamasu', but he brings up fascinating and convincing points, such as:

- Why do the Kais allow mortals to desecrate the beauty of their world?
- Why do the Gods allow mortals to break the sacred laws of the Multiverse instead of enforcing them?
- Why did the Gods give mortals reason, the potential for intelligence, and strength?
- Consequently, why do mortals keep throwing away like garbage those sacred gifts, like the Babarians?
Yet all the points are not addressed or argued by anyone seriously or displayed as actual issues that are a problem for the Universe. They're just empty statements and viewpoints that have little examples for such a grand mindset. One planet of barbaric dinosaur people and Goku being a jackass isn't enough of a valid reason for his extreme plan to eliminate every living mortal in the mutli-verse to me, it's hard to find any actual feeling of his mindset being right.

It's why there's a constant theme of every person in Goku's crew asking him

"Why are you doing this?! Mortal's aren't so black and white! You're not making any sense, you're insane!"

"You can't fathom my ideals and actions, you're a mere mortal! Know your place!"

I'm giving a rough cut because I ain't about to rewatch the whole arc word for word lol, but for me to feel like there's actual solid reasoning and to question the merits of the good guys over his isn't ever highlighted. I want an actual argument of their clashing ideals, which given how big the actual ideals are, there wasn't enough episodes to openly have that detailed of writing.
I mean, these guys, Beerus, Shin and co., had the power to save thousands of innocents, yet they just let Frieza and his lackeys cause all that destruction. Or Champa just let the Earthlings of his Universe wage war on each others, thus turning Earth into a toxic wasteland devoid of any life. Clearly, the current hierarchy of the Gods is inherently flawed, with the Gods of Destruction basically following their whims, and the Gods of Creation allowing evil because 'It's not our job to deal with evil'. Zamasu had the right idea: give a more proactive role to the Kais, thus allowing them to withstand evil better.
Which would actually be a good story element to him if we actually see his ideals being shown. Have Zamasu actually work on a planet or, hell, a galaxy, through his means of justice and way of guidance. Show that through his actions, although severe at times, truly makes a better world. It would make you wonder "dang, maybe his plan does work."
Zamasu remarks throughout the arc that he desires to reshape the Multiverse into a beautiful, splendid and peaceful utopia devoid of violent mortals and weak-willed Gods.
His desires and what actually happens are completely separate from each other through the actions of the arc. Destroying absolutely everything and torturing the Earth isn't a way of showing what his perfect universe can be, it depicts him as a psychopath that only feels he is worthy to be in the universe. It never depicts or shows that some mortals he deemed worthy or Gods that are fulfilling their duty is spared, and that Earth is actually not worth saving.

We should see that he is actually true to his ideals, instead he becomes a hypocrite that breaks everything that he holds as righteous and becomes the very thing that he seeks to destroy.
Just like Zen-Oh would have had the winner of the Tournament of Power made a selfish wish, yet I don't see Goku and co. being angry at him. Or about the genocide he committed upon Universe 13-18 just because he was feeling bored one day? At least Zamasu had an actual reason for committing those actions.
I think Zeno and Grand Priests methods at the end of the Tournament are beyond stupid and tacked on as a symbolic message that has all sorts of problems. I agree that the way they handled their view of Zeno is plain wrong, because apparently having the ending "everybody is back, so everything you did is ooookay" is good enough for some reason to them when it's not.

I'm going to go into fan fiction mode, so you can skip this if you want, but I honestly feel that if Zamasu's arc was taken after the Tournament of Power, there would be a LOT more valid points he has for his actions and can actually agree with him in some cases.
____________

Goku causing Zeno to hold a tournament that endangers the universes all for his greedy desires to fight, can make Zamasu actually have a real sense of fear that one mortal can destroy everything, as well as having the ability to surpass the Gods with an ability not even they can preform can pose a huge threat as well. A rational fear that is enforced from Goku by not just his power, but his character and his flaws of a mortal.

The tournament being mainly cast because of the Gods and Kais lack of solid work on the universe can bring forth Zamasu's questions of methods that the Kais are doing and is not working for the good of the universe. Perhaps the way to go about things should be changed and we would have actual evidence for such a grand means of change besides...one planet of dinosaurs we see.

We can actually see him enforce his views of justice on planets in the 10th Universe and the mortal ranking can go up! He is doing the very thing the universe needs and can be actually debated on if he's truly in the wrong, he has the results to prove that his methods can work.
____________

Zamasu is a villain in Dragon Ball that is vastly different from the others due to his character driven motives instead of just being the strongest or mindless destruction. There is a motive, however I just feel like his motives given through his actions, lack of good evidence for such a grand plan of eliminating all mortal life and lack of examples and results of his potential methods make me look at a case where I can't see Zamasu as a person that could potentially be right compared to the hero's who just want to stop him from killing people.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 02, 2018 6:23 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:Wikipedia is not the one DOING the critics, it's the one GATHERING them lol
It's not about one person's opinion being more authoritative than another, it's a mass of different opinions giving your rough statistics, feel free to check out IMDB or MyAnimeList or whatever, even in this very kanzenshuu website I bet you will have a majority favoring Super to GT despite all the criticism the former gets lol
Also your speculation about reviewers not watching the sub is just an assumption from your side lol
I didn't mention attack of the fanboy or watchmojo as I don't know what they are BTW lol
You're dismissing arguably reliable sources and use some underground japanese hardcore ones that I had to decipher with google translate with a hundred reviewers in comparison lol
You cited Wikipedia which cites these sources. These sources use nostalgia and extremely subjective claims that makes drastic leaps in conclusion with nothing else to back it up. They might as well cite VegettoEX or Ajay since I trust their judgment more than these random ass sources.

Have you even taken a look at the sources GT page cited? The first three are talking about the Funimation DVD sets. Complaining about the quality of the audio tracks, disappointing re-release of the box set of the "Lost Episodes," etc. The last source, which is actually reviewing the anime itself, has a footnote saying it was reviewed and viewed it in English dub.

So no, it's not just an assumption but a logical deduction based on the things they talk about and the context it is in. Because it makes no sense for English viewers to watch a show that's already dubbed and has been marketed to be watched dubbed.

These are hardly reliable sources and way out of context. There is no proper original comparison of the original run to the original run anywhere in Wikipedia. The fact that you didn't even to bother checking these sources when you cited fucking Wikipedia paragraphs just shows your ignorance and horrible form of argumentation.

Anikore is not some underground Japanese website. It is essentially the equivalent of MAL for English speakers. And I've seen far better MAL reviewers that explain their points much more properly and impartially than the sources from Attack of Fanboy or WatchMojo.com. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it any less credible than the English reviewers who didn't even bother watching the original Japanese.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 02, 2018 6:45 pm

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that literally the first two quotes of 'praise' are literally about the title sequence of the show. Is this supposed to constitute critic reception? What a shady way of pushing in an agenda to praise Super for something so minor and inconsequential to the show.

Actually, the entire first paragraph on the DBS page is literally on just the first episode ffs. It also cited comicbook.com, which is another website that is about as objective as DB YouTubers.

Why doesn't the GT page has this type of treatment? Dan Dan Kokoro is leaps and bounds way better than the first DBS opening, and I can guarantee you that most fans prefer GT's opening over Super's first opening. In addition, the first episode of GT by TV ratings was quite good too.

So yeah, overall Wikipedia is an unreliable and misleading page to cite, as are many of those sources it cites.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 03, 2018 1:28 am

One planet of barbaric dinosaur people and Goku being a jackass isn't enough of a valid reason for his extreme plan to eliminate every living mortal in the mutli-verse to me, it's hard to find any actual feeling of his mindset being right.
Zamasu had also stated that he had witnessed countless examples of mortals acting foolishly and that the Babarians and Goku in particular were just the last straw.
Which would actually be a good story element to him if we actually see his ideals being shown.
See episode 55, his speech with Gowasu. He laments the inability of the Gods to punish evil and questions why should they ignore it when they have the power to stop it.
Have Zamasu actually work on a planet or, hell, a galaxy, through his means of justice and way of guidance. Show that through his actions, although severe at times, truly makes a better world. It would make you wonder "dang, maybe his plan does work."
But it would make a better world. A world with no mortals. Sure, a world with no Goku and co., but also a world with no Frieza, Frost, a world with no criminals, warmongers, thieves, etc.
His desires and what actually happens are completely separate from each other through the actions of the arc. Destroying absolutely everything and torturing the Earth isn't a way of showing what his perfect universe can be, it depicts him as a psychopath that only feels he is worthy to be in the universe
He planned to reshape the empty planets into a beautiful utopia after all mortals we're destroyed. And yes, he enjoyed torturing mortals because he was sadistic, it's part of his duality, but it doesn't take away from the credit of some of his arguments that are still being discussed today as you can clearly see. Probably because he isn't an inherently evil character.
It never depicts or shows that some mortals he deemed worthy or Gods that are fulfilling their duty is spared, and that Earth is actually not worth saving.
Again, if Gowasu had shown Zamasu a civilization like Universe 3 or the Namekians, who are advanced and made good of use of their divine gifts, he might have changed his mindset. But that idiot Gowasu showed him a violent planet of bloodthirsty barbarians who failed to understand their errors even after a thousand years.
We should see that he is actually true to his ideals, instead he becomes a hypocrite that breaks everything that he holds as righteous and becomes the very thing that he seeks to destroy.
It is part of his character cycle. I mean, you can say the same thing about Baby. His sole desire was to destroy the Saiyans, yet to do so, he turned into a Great Ape and started fighting like those barbarians who destroyed Planet Tuffle, ultimately becoming the very thing he had sworn to destroy.
I'm going to go into fan fiction mode, so you can skip this if you want, but I honestly feel that if Zamasu's arc was taken after the Tournament of Power, there would be a LOT more valid points he has for his actions and can actually agree with him in some cases.
Yes, I too think that it would have been much better to have the Zamasu arc after the Tournament of Power arc, but I think Toriyama and co. wanted to estabilish the full power of Zeno before the Tournament, so having him take out a corrupted timeline seemed like a good idea. In fact, ultimately the whole point of the Zamasu arc was to show Zeno's power.
where I can't see Zamasu as a person that could potentially be right compared to the hero's who just want to stop him from killing people.
To be fair, at least Zamasu was driven by divine justice and a desire to respect the laws when he committed genocide upon mortals. Meanwhile fucking Beerus destroys entire planets full of innocents because he didn't like the food they cooked!

I think I have proven my point that Zamasu is much more complex than what meets the eye and is more of a grey character than full-blown evil like Frieza, Cell, Buu, Super 17 and Omega Shenron. Baby was also grey like Zamasu, I didn't deny that, but that obviously doesn't mean that Zamasu was a rip-off of Baby just because they were not saturday moorning villains!

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Logania » Thu May 03, 2018 2:15 am

Zamasu had also stated that he had witnessed countless examples of mortals acting foolishly and that the Babarians and Goku in particular were just the last straw.
Yes, but for feeling the same type of way that Zamasu does and understanding how most mortals are bad I would like for them to show a lot more cases so I could see his viewpoint. The Dragon Ball Universe is very, very bare for a world that contains 12 universes, we've only ever seen Earth, Namek and small sections like Beerus's planet at this point in the series, which for the most part are relatively full of good people. Dinosaur planet being one of the only planets that has some lack of morality and barbaric ways shown and just saying that he's seen more isn't a good way for me to get on board with his mindset on mortals.
See episode 55, his speech with Gowasu. He laments the inability of the Gods to punish evil and questions why should they ignore it when they have the power to stop it.
Yes, a speech. I want to see his methods of justice and guidance that the Gods and Kais he claims doesn't do and see how his effect on planets and beings are different for the better or worse. His thoughts without the actions then immediately goes different with his thoughts he sought out in the first place doesn't let me feel for him and see that his methods can be a right thing.
But it would make a better world. A world with no mortals. Sure, a world with no Goku and co., but also a world with no Frieza, Frost, a world with no criminals, warmongers, thieves, etc.
A world without beings or life isn't even a world anymore, it's an empty space full of rocks and Zamasu. I don't see how an empty world full of nothing can be a better world that people can side with and want Zamasu to succeed in creating. If they DO agree with him and want that to happen in Dragon Ball then I have no idea what they seek in this show lol
He planned to reshape the empty planets into a beautiful utopia after all mortals we're destroyed. And yes, he enjoyed torturing mortals because he was sadistic, it's part of his duality, but it doesn't take away from the credit of some of his arguments that are still being discussed today as you can clearly see. Probably because he isn't an inherently evil character.
Killing your master, innocent people, torture and punishing those for crimes you yourself commit makes him an evil character. A fun character, but an evil one. Only a few arguments can be made like mortals having no respect for God's like Goku, and that Kais need to lead more directly instead of just hang in the sidelines, because everyone agrees Goku's an ass at that time and that they think Kais don't do anything which are valid, but all the actions he has done and world he seeks are things that people watching can't side with. Who can see his point of view and want him to win after all the things he's done?
Again, if Gowasu had shown Zamasu a civilization like Universe 3 or the Namekians, who are advanced and made good of use of their divine gifts, he might have changed his mindset. But that idiot Gowasu showed him a violent planet of bloodthirsty barbarians who failed to understand their errors even after a thousand years.
Yeah Gowasu's a tea loving hippie, but even though he isn't the best teacher, we still see him try to lead Zamasu down a good path and generally cares for his pupil. I'm pretty sure his goal from showing the planet in the past and future wasn't to make Zamasu a bloodthirsty murderer, he was twisted and beyond help before the Zero Mortals Plan had been planned and Zamasu killing Gowasu in cold blood isn't helping people agree with his mindset and views any.

It is part of his character cycle. I mean, you can say the same thing about Baby. His sole desire was to destroy the Saiyans, yet to do so, he turned into a Great Ape and started fighting like those barbarians who destroyed Planet Tuffle, ultimately becoming the very thing he had sworn to destroy.
Yes, but how can we see his views on justice and agree to his ideals when he immediately goes back on everything that laid the groundwork as a character? I'm sure Baby wasn't made to be a villain we can see has a point we agree to and root for alongside the heroes like you say Zamasu does?
I think I have proven my point that Zamasu is much more complex than what meets the eye and is more of a grey character than full-blown evil like Frieza, Cell, Buu, Super 17 and Omega Shenron. Baby was also grey like Zamasu, I didn't deny that, but that obviously doesn't mean that Zamasu was a rip-off of Baby just because they were not saturday moorning villains!
I've never said that he's not a deep or complex character, I enjoy him a lot and is a great villain to watch, but I think our discussion was dealing with 2 separate issues.

My main point I was addressing is how people, the audience, can't take Zamasu's side in the arc and want him to succeed. You stated that good writing for a villain is one that has it to where you can agree with both sides and understand both sides dilemmas which i was mainly going against as I feel Zamasu cannot be agreed to morally or ethically compared to the heroes, not that he's a bad character or a Baby clone which he isn't on both accounts.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu May 03, 2018 4:31 am

Rakurai wrote: Why doesn't the GT page has this type of treatment?
Geee I wonder why, GT had such an overwhelming positive reception and is so universally loved, let's dismiss 90% of internet websites and keep my own truth...

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Rakurai » Thu May 03, 2018 7:52 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Rakurai wrote: Why doesn't the GT page has this type of treatment?
Geee I wonder why, GT had such an overwhelming positive reception and is so universally loved, let's dismiss 90% of internet websites and keep my own truth...
Let's keep pretending as if Super is a glorious masterpiece compared to GT and that it doesn't have any of the same flaws and more that GT possessed. Let's pretend that popularity = quality and by that regard Fairy Tail is also a high-quality anime just like DBS. Let's keep pretending as if GT is hated in Japan because you don't know how to speak their language and have only ever watched the dubs that say "I am the hope of the universe! "

Yeah, you keep using Wikipedia entries to back up your empty, weak claims even though I teared apart those biased receptions. Because I'm sure that's how anybody who thinks Super > GT also operates, by citing Wikipedia as an act of desperation.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Timetraveller » Thu May 03, 2018 7:57 am

PFM18 wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Wikipedia is an entirely reliable source. There's actually everything stopping you from changing those articles. You would have to file a request with evidence and cite your sources like they do. They are not simply giving their opinion they are just recording the results of these critics observing how well received each series is. I don't think it is groundbreaking news when they say that GT wasn't as well received/not as popular as Super. Qaaman had a poll asking people which series they liked better and 90% of the votes went to DBS. Ultimately it is up to your opinion but IMO Super does almost everything better than GT did.
No, Wikipedia is not a reliable source and anyone can make changes. Colleges will not accept Wikipedia as a reference for anything. This is common knowledge.

Regarding popularity, I don't know the numbers but GT didn't do poorly when it aired. Besides, popularity does not equal quality. There were a number of things that most likely affected fan perception such as the"not-canon" hate from the DBZ purists who disregard anything not written by Toriyama and Dragonball fatigue. Dragonball Super had a two decade long gap and years of Toei testing the market. Many fans were just happy that it came back.

lol,those polls are skewed because the only people that vote on them are the fans who are still watching the show. Most people who dropped Super early on aren't going to be spend their time watching "Qaaman". Random youtube polls aren't credible sources either
No anybody cannot just change Wikipedia the changes have to be approved and reviewed by somebody else and you need to give reasons/sources as to why you are changing it. That is just false.

This logic makes no sense. Wikipedia cannot be used as a scholarly source within the context of an academic research paper. It is not scholarly by nature so obviously it is not used in a college work. But that means absolutely nothing in this context. There's no need to be a scholar to deduce when Wikipedia observes that Super is more popular than GT. Super is more well received than GT, obviously. Wikipedia is just reflecting this obvious notion. in the DB community I'm sure there's plenty of evidence that Super is more popular and we don't need a scholarly journal to verify that. You just conveniently dismiss the credibility of anything that doesn't support your opinion.

You say "Qaaman" as though he isn't immensely popular in the DB community and his fanbase is all DB fans regardless of whether they liked Super. He has plenty of content discussing things other than DBS so I don't see why his subscribers would be a biased sample.
No, Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. lol

I'm well aware of how Wikipedia works. I've made many changes to articles over the years. In fact, half of the wiki page for a famous historical figure was written by me (and still up today) :lol: Unless things have changed in the last few years, anyone can make an edit but you can also revert changes done by someone else and dispute it if you disagree with it and have the evidence to back it up. Legitimate colleges will not accept Wikipedia as a reference for anything, no matter how small the assignment or work. This doesn't just apply to academic research papers from scholars. If your college does accept wikipedia, I'd seriously question the legitimacy of your course and university. If it isn't acceptable for colleges, what makes you think you can cite it as evidence to back up your point? I don't think it meets kanzenshuu standards either.

Again, as far as I know, GT's numbers weren't bad (Kanzenshuu should have actual TV ratings). Just not up to par with what DBZ's numbers. And again, popularity isn't a measure of the quality of a show. 'Transformers: Dark side of the moon" made over 1.124 billion dollars despite the reaction of critics. Batman vs Superman's another great example, making close to 900 million dollars and was widely criticized. Fans will flock to see those movies because of their attachment to the franchise in general, not because they're artistic masterpieces. Even the most hardcore fan will admit that the first two arcs of Super were objectively bad, dragging out the movies for 28 episodes with painfully bad animation and recolors (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Ana7tXLMQ), and the very next arc after that was a tournament started over a bet over food with fights like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_auzXjSO9Y. Yet, people still tuned in every week. That should tell you enough about the main factor in Dragonball Super's popularity

Qaaman is immensely popular in the DB community. Not every fan is active in the community, and the majority of those that are, follow Super. Everyone else has moved on with their lives

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Rakurai » Thu May 03, 2018 8:08 am

Not to mention, Dragon Ball franchise has a much wider fanbase than it did in 1996. If it were entirely up to Japan only, the outcome would've certainly been different. Saying GT killed the franchise is not false but its also a painfully ignorant approach that ignores a lot of factors and advantages that Super enjoys today like an international fanbase, online streaming access, and (this is my biggest pet peeve) a script from Toriyama or canonicity as a lot of fans like to put out. Because canon means superiority to a lot of people and no matter how shitty it gets they'll keep watching because it's canon. If Super were written the exact same way but it didn't have the Toriyama sticker attached, fans would not be so keen to continue watching it.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Rakurai » Thu May 03, 2018 8:13 am

Anybody who cites Wikipedia to try and argue Super > GT is a troll and deserves to be called out for it.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu May 03, 2018 10:54 am

Rakurai wrote:Let's keep pretending as if Super is a glorious masterpiece compared to GT and that it doesn't have any of the same flaws and more that GT possessed.
There is nothing to pretend, GT bombed and Super is a success, after twice the amount of episodes the next part comes in form of a movie before the anime returns, and there is also the manga on the side, that’s your cold fact,
I am far from denying Super has its own share of flaws but I wouldn’t say it’s the same flaws, Super has mostly power level issues, failed new characters and at times ooc moments, GT is just boring lol #Myopinionlol
Yeah, you keep using Wikipedia entries to back up your empty, weak claims even though I teared apart those biased receptions
I cited that once as well as other sources and it is your right to reject them,
even though all you said was ‘muh biased muh subjective’,
find me only one DB fan who isn’t biased or subjective starting with yourself lol
Anybody who cites Wikipedia to try and argue Super > GT is a troll and deserves to be called out for it.
Ok man, it has been a pleasure speaking with you but I think we should end it as nothing fruitful seems to come out of it, in some situations maybe it is just best to take a deep breath and go for a walk cheers lol

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu May 03, 2018 5:16 pm

Yes, but for feeling the same type of way that Zamasu does and understanding how most mortals are bad I would like for them to show a lot more cases so I could see his viewpoint. The Dragon Ball Universe is very, very bare for a world that contains 12 universes, we've only ever seen Earth, Namek and small sections like Beerus's planet at this point in the series, which for the most part are relatively full of good people. Dinosaur planet being one of the only planets that has some lack of morality and barbaric ways shown and just saying that he's seen more isn't a good way for me to get on board with his mindset on mortals.
That planet was completely rotten. Even after a thousand years those beasts kept fighting each others mindlessly. They had no excuse, the Gods gave them wisdom and intellect and they chose to use them to continue their vicious cycle of violence. Yeah, they brought all of that upon themselves. If your creation is flawed, you don't just stand there and do nothing, you fix it or get rid of it.
Yes, a speech. I want to see his methods of justice and guidance that the Gods and Kais he claims doesn't do and see how his effect on planets and beings are different for the better or worse. His thoughts without the actions then immediately goes different with his thoughts he sought out in the first place doesn't let me feel for him and see that his methods can be a right thing.
You would have witnessed the beautiful paradise he would have created had those damned time-travelling mortals not messed with his plans.
A world without beings or life isn't even a world anymore, it's an empty space full of rocks and Zamasu. I don't see how an empty world full of nothing can be a better world that people can side with and want Zamasu to succeed in creating. If they DO agree with him and want that to happen in Dragon Ball then I have no idea what they seek in this show lol
Zamasu was the most powerful Supreme Kai in existence, it is clear that he would have used his powers as a God of Creation to shape new life (like Fused Zamasu did when he created that sentient bird-shaped creature as part of the Lightning of Absolution technique), thereofore it wouldn't just be a massive Multiverse inhabited only by Zamasu, but rather Zamasu would use his powers as a Kai to create a new type of God/mortal bound solely to his will and he can finally realize his long-sought dream of becoming the sole master of the Multiverse and a God praised by everyone.
Killing your master, innocent people, torture and punishing those for crimes you yourself commit makes him an evil character. A fun character, but an evil one.
Just like destroying half a planet, and the thousands of innocents in it, just because they didn't cook a good meal makes Beerus evil. A fun character, I may give you that, but an evil one nonetheless, yet I don't see Goku or co. ever mentioning that! I mean, yeah, ok, Zamasu was bad, how about the thousands of innocent families who lost their lives because Beerus didn't like the cake they baked on that planet?
like mortals having no respect for God's like Goku
And mortals directly threatening Gods (Goku and Babarian), wasting/abusing the gifts of the Gods (Babarians, and countless other examples), and mortals breaking the sacred laws of the Gods (The Time Machine). From Zamasu's, and any sensible God's, perspective, mortals are just criminals who keep repeating the same mistakes again, and again, and again, all the while breaking the laws of their creators with no remorse or thought given.
Yeah Gowasu's a tea loving hippie, but even though he isn't the best teacher, we still see him try to lead Zamasu down a good path and generally cares for his pupil.
He was a tragically sad teacher, he should be ashamed of myself. He failed Zamasu, Zamasu is his sin alone. I am glad that he wil bear the shame of failure to the very end of his long life.
I'm pretty sure his goal from showing the planet in the past and future wasn't to make Zamasu a bloodthirsty murderer,
Gowasu's brilliant logic:

"My apprentice is disgusted by the violence of mortals who do not learn from their mistakes and throw away the gifts granted to them by the Gods, so to resolve his doubts, I'm going to show him a planet full of bloodthirsty and frenzied beasts who, even after a thousand years, can't get over their cruelty and madness and make good use of the gifts of the Gods'.

I am at a loss for words. Gowasu is the worst teacher. Someone replace him, quickly! Anyone? Oh, right, who fucking cares about having actual good and competent people leading the Universes. Certainly not that naive kid Zeno.
he was twisted and beyond help before the Zero Mortals Plan had been planned and Zamasu killing Gowasu in cold blood isn't helping people agree with his mindset and views any.

No he wasn't. Zamasu had a pure heart before the last straw, even Gowasu aknowledged that, and he would have noticed if Zamasu's heart had been pure evil.
Yes, but how can we see his views on justice and agree to his ideals when he immediately goes back on everything that laid the groundwork as a character?
Because he gathered the Super Dragon Balls twice, subsequently killed all Gods in the entire Multiverse (it's not like they were useful anyway, that bunch of lazy fools), and destroyed several mortal civilizations, so obviously he was seriously convinced that he was acting in the best interests of the Multiverse; he even cried for his ideals and for the world.
My main point I was addressing is how people, the audience, can't take Zamasu's side in the arc and want him to succeed
Considering that Zamasu's mindset is often debated on social medias (especially now that the Dub is in his arc), it would seem that viewers can and do indeed sympathize with Zamasu's cause. Zamasu was not inherently evil, in fact he even had a pure heart once, and he stated upon becoming Gowasu's apprentice that he would devote himself to universal peace. A terrible teacher, a regrettably foolish guest, and a people of rabid barbarians sadly twisted the young and promising Kai.

I can assure you: if Zamasu had witnessed Universe 3 or New Namek instead of the Babarians, had he met a respectable and mature opponent like Gohan instead of Goku, and had had a cunning teacher, things would have gone much differently. And this is the tragedy of Zamasu, he didn't necessarily want to do those evil things, but he was misguided beyond repair, and the one who was supposed to teach him about the true meaning of justice, failed miserably.

After all, there is a reason why Gowasu ultimately says that 'Zamasu is his sin'. He realizes that he is partly guilty for Zamasu's actions. If he had been a good teacher, chances are that Zamasu would have changed for the better, since he was never inherently evil like Frieza or Buu.
You stated that good writing for a villain is one that has it to where you can agree with both sides and understand both sides dilemmas which i was mainly going against as I feel Zamasu cannot be agreed to morally or ethically compared to the heroes, not that he's a bad character or a Baby clone which he isn't on both accounts.

The problem is that the heroes are not that good are either. At least not Beerus. See the above example of him destroying thousands upon thousands of innocent life because he didn't like the food they cooked on that planet. For some reason, Goku and his friends were appalled by Zamasu's actios, but Beerus' gratuitous violence or Zeno's apathetic and disgustingly violent nature are so much different and better.

I hope I have proved that Zamasu is not full-blown evil. Actually, to elaborate on that, his intentions were good (universal peace), but his methods were questionable. Zamasu's philosophy is the classic 'the end justifies the means', and personally, I can understand very well Zamasu's point of view: if eliminating all mortals means that the Multiverse will finally be a beautiful and peaceful utopia, then why should he, a God, have mercy over those creatures who, from his point of view (after witnessing several examples too) do nothing but waste the divine gifts and cause violence amongst the Multiverse. Obviously, there are exceptions, not all mortals are evil. But then again, not all mortals are virtuous either, so it's not like Zeno and the Grand Priest accomplished that much with the Tournament of Power in the end.

Anyway, as much as I adore discussing Zamasu, perhaps it is better to stop this oddly specific Zamasu discussion since this thread is about the 'confrontation' between Super and GT.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Thu May 03, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Rakurai » Thu May 03, 2018 5:17 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Rakurai wrote:Let's keep pretending as if Super is a glorious masterpiece compared to GT and that it doesn't have any of the same flaws and more that GT possessed.
There is nothing to pretend, GT bombed and Super is a success, after twice the amount of episodes the next part comes in form of a movie before the anime returns, and there is also the manga on the side, that’s your cold fact,
I am far from denying Super has its own share of flaws but I wouldn’t say it’s the same flaws, Super has mostly power level issues, failed new characters and at times ooc moments, GT is just boring lol #Myopinionlol
Yeah, you keep using Wikipedia entries to back up your empty, weak claims even though I teared apart those biased receptions
I cited that once as well as other sources and it is your right to reject them,
even though all you said was ‘muh biased muh subjective’,
find me only one DB fan who isn’t biased or subjective starting with yourself lol
Anybody who cites Wikipedia to try and argue Super > GT is a troll and deserves to be called out for it.
Ok man, it has been a pleasure speaking with you but I think we should end it as nothing fruitful seems to come out of it, in some situations maybe it is just best to take a deep breath and go for a walk cheers lol
You dont read anything here, do you? Again, different circumstances.

Super premiered at the time of heavy DB demand not just in Japan, but internationally as well. Modern DB has a FAR greater fanbase than it did 20+ years ago. GT premiered in Japan when DB was almost nonexistent to the outside world and had been running for almost 10 years, basically franchise fatigue. Marketing it as being adapted from Toriyama's script led to more attraction because ppl apparently care that it HAS to come from the word of Toriyama otherwise it's "not canon." Smh. Again, popularity =/= quality

You find GT boring, that's fine. Everybody has their own tastes, I have no beef with that. Just as I found Super painful and cringy to watch especially the first two arcs and would not give it another re-run.

Its when you bring up Wikipedia as "facts" to see which did it better that bothers me. When you think that "Super is making my childhood self happy" is valid proof that Super > GT. When using comparisons b/w Funimation GT dogshit to original Toei Super anime constitutes valid criticism for GT as a whole. I thought this was supposed to be a place for good discussion, not intellectual dishonesty and grade-A bullshit.

I'm glad to end this conversation if all you're gonna be doing is using critic opinions as "fact" to justify your claims. I might as well bring in YouTubers and YouTube comments and cite them as fact if thats the case.
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Logania » Thu May 03, 2018 7:56 pm

Just like destroying half a planet, and the thousands of innocents in it, just because they didn't cook a good meal makes Beerus evil. A fun character, I may give you that, but an evil one nonetheless, yet I don't see Goku or co. ever mentioning that! I mean, yeah, ok, Zamasu was bad, how about the thousands of innocent families who lost their lives because Beerus didn't like the cake they baked on that planet?
Beerus ain't a character we can see is doing good things. He gets scolded and told he does a terrible job. We discussing Zamasu's righteous actions people can get behind not the lazy dumb cat lol
And mortals directly threatening Gods (Goku and Babarian), wasting/abusing the gifts of the Gods (Babarians, and countless other examples)
Threatening Shin one time and Barbarians attack us? How disgusting, they should all be eliminated, they should respect the Gods!

*kills all Gods, including ones that have a good mortal ranking and place in the universe*
and mortals breaking the sacred laws of the Gods (The Time Machine).
Trunks! You used your time machine for the good of the Earth! You have broken the sacred rule of the Gods!

*breaks sacred rule of the Gods to kill and torture innocents*

Real good methods and ideals that I can get behind!
From Zamasu's, and any sensible God's, perspective, mortals are just criminals who keep repeating the same mistakes again, and again, and again, all the while breaking the laws of their creators with no remorse or thought given.
But when he does the same thing, it's not really a good point to act righteous and we feel he's doing the right thing.
No he wasn't. Zamasu had a pure heart before the last straw, even Gowasu aknowledged that, and he would have noticed if Zamasu's heart had been pure evil.
Turning so quickly and getting off on killing people can't make us believe he was good at some point. We never see him as a good person, even though he can say he was good, how can we care when the actual things that happens in the arc basically make the line moot.
Because he gathered the Super Dragon Balls twice, subsequently killed all Gods in the entire Multiverse (it's not like they were useful anyway, that bunch of lazy fools), and destroyed several mortal civilizations, so obviously he was seriously convinced that he was acting in the best interests of the Multiverse.
He was convinced, and I know what he was doing, but the actions he did doesnt dictate a solution that is right. At the arc we didn't know any of the Gods or how the problem with their duties were, we just know that he killed all the powers of each universe and tortures innocent people and children instead of focusing on his plan because he's a narcissist who hates mortals. Hell, it'd be more convincing to torture the dinosaur people, but not Earthlings, you can't see his moral righteousness with that.
Considering that Zamasu's mindset is often debated on social medias (especially now that the Dub is in his arc), it would seem that viewers can and do indeed sympathize with Zamasu's cause. Zamasu was not inherently evil, in fact he even had a pure heart once, and he stated upon becoming Gowasu's apprentice that he would devote himself to universal peace. A terrible teacher, a regrettably foolish guest, and a people of rabid barbarians sadly twisted the young and promising Kai.

I can assure you: if Zamasu had witnessed Universe 3 or New Namek instead of the Babarians, had he met a respectable and mature opponent like Gohan instead of Goku, and had had a cunning teacher, things would have gone much differently. And this is the tragedy of Zamasu, he didn't necessarily want to do those evil things, but he was misguided beyond repair, and the one who was supposed to teach him about the true meaning of justice, failed miserably.
Bending coincidence and the world entirely for Zamasu to not become evil doesn't make it to where it becomes everyone's fault and not his. Anyone can become good or different if the entire world is shaped to his convenience. How you act when faced with adversity and problems dictates your character.

He is young and impulsive, not wanting to accept the world because it's not the way he likes it. He doesn't consider other options to create a better world, try to work better with the God of Destruction or even attempt to try a method that doesn't result in mass genocide. He asks Gowasu a question about other means that are extreme and when he gets an answer he doesn't like, he begins to delve into darkness.

Shin had to deal with no mentor or guidance, and was faced with the death of all of his fellow Kais to the evil of a mortal and his creation, but he never decides that it's time to get rid of mortals and perhaps a different way of dealing with things. He is inexperienced but has his heart and ideals in the right place, yet Zamasu has a mentor and peaceful times to learn the ways of the world, but refuses for any method besides the evil way.
After all, there is a reason why Gowasu ultimately says that 'Zamasu is his sin'. He realizes that he is partly guilty for Zamasu's actions. If he had been a good teacher, chances are that Zamasu would have changed for the better, since he was never inherently evil like Frieza or Buu.
Partially, but him not being a perfect teacher can't result in Zamasu's path to his desire to eliminate mortals totally. He is there to guide him in the role of a Kai, and only claims him as his sin because he is his pupil, a mentor can only do so much.
The problem is that the heroes are not that good are either. At least not Beerus.
All the heroes in the main cast are good people. They have some stupid moments, but overall are people that save innocents and world's, like Namek, the planet you feel that Zamasu would seem as good. Beerus is an ass, yes, but gets his due comeuppance when the results of his laziness and lack of good work gets him almost erased.
For some reason, Goku and his friends were appalled by Zamasu's actios, but Beerus' gratuitous violence or Zeno's apathetic and disgustingly violent nature are so much different and better.
For Beerus, they never really see him destroying planets filled with people, and when they do, like on Earth potentially getting erased, they're not keen on it and even try to fight him to save the planet, just like Goku being okay with Zamasu until they see the damage he's done to Trunks's world. Zeno is just flip flopped and done horribly, I agree.
I hope I have proved that Zamasu is not full-blown evil. Actually, to elaborate on that, his intentions were good (universal peace), but his methods were questionable. Zamasu's philosophy is the classic 'the end justifies the means', and personally, I can understand very well Zamasu's point of view: if eliminating all mortals means that the Multiverse will finally be a beautiful and peaceful utopia, then why should he, a God, have mercy over those creatures who, from his point of view (after witnessing several examples too) do nothing but waste the divine gifts and cause violence amongst the Multiverse. Obviously, there are exceptions, not all mortals are evil. But then again, not all mortals are virtuous either, so it's not like Zeno and the Grand Priest accomplished that much with the Tournament of Power in the end.

Anyway, as much as I adore discussing Zamasu, perhaps it is better to stop this oddly specific Zamasu discussion since this thread is about the 'confrontation' between Super and GT
Agreed, my good man. Its probably not a thing we'll agree on, but it was fun discussing it with you! :thumbup:
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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu May 03, 2018 8:34 pm

Rakurai wrote: Why doesn't the GT page has this type of treatment? Dan Dan Kokoro is leaps and bounds way better than the first DBS opening, and I can guarantee you that most fans prefer GT's opening over Super's first opening. In addition, the first episode of GT by TV ratings was quite good too.
It is a very cute song but it does not have to do anything with a series like DB as an ending .. it can be
had a good start to be the return of dragon ball but then had problems with the rating
Rakurai wrote: Not to mention, Dragon Ball franchise has a much wider fanbase than it did in 1996. If it were entirely up to Japan only, the outcome would've certainly been different. Saying GT killed the franchise is not false but its also a painfully ignorant approach that ignores a lot of factors and advantages that Super enjoys today like an international fanbase, online streaming access, and (this is my biggest pet peeve) a script from Toriyama or canonicity as a lot of fans like to put out. Because canon means superiority to a lot of people and no matter how shitty it gets they'll keep watching because it's canon. If Super were written the exact same way but it didn't have the Toriyama sticker attached, fans would not be so keen to continue watching it.
assuming that all the fans think alike, it's not really an advantage
that is also false the majority did not know if it was canon or not when it came out GT or the movies of Z so to say that help really is not a reason there is the case DB minus that not many know and ignore and it is the canon

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri May 04, 2018 4:21 am

Rakurai wrote:I thought this was supposed to be a place for good discussion, not intellectual dishonesty and grade-A bullshit.
Come on now, no need to trash talk the whole place because of one discussion with a loser like me lol

All I’m saying is if you look up for global reception over various websites (planet-anime, myanimelest, imbd…) you will see there is more positives about Super than GT OVERALL, that’s your fact here,
you can as well hardly turn a blind eye on the content -64 eps vs 131 and ongoing + movies + the manga,
all wikipedia does is relate that, the fact you don’t care for the examples it uses is irrelevant, any review is subjective a way or another,
so it’s popularity indicator, in terms of giving a new life to DB, Toei did succeed more with Super because of the actual reception it got,
you say popularity does not matter, you say reviews do not matter, you say context does not matter, so basically what matters exactly aside what you think yourself lol
SupremeKai25 wrote:Anyway, as much as I adore discussing Zamasu, perhaps it is better to stop this oddly specific Zamasu discussion since this thread is about the 'confrontation' between Super and GT
Too lazy to read what you guys said but again I feel it’s just natural folks will argue about one of the best villains in the franchise cheers mates lol

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri May 04, 2018 9:42 am

Too lazy to read what you guys said but again I feel it’s just natural folks will argue about one of the best villains in the franchise cheers mates lol
Indeed, but we agreed to disagree since, as you said earlier, Zamasu is such a complex villain that it is normla that some people would have radically different interpretations of him.

I initially joined this thread because there were a few people (just a tiny minority though) saying that Zamasu was a complete rip-off of Baby. Suffice to say that is not the case. Yes, Zamasu and Baby might be similiar in theory (i.e. twisted individual who is driven by a strong sense of justice), but ultimately they were much different from an execution standpoint. One was a fallen Kai apprentice, the other was an android overlord who infected people, how is Zamasu a rip-off of Baby??

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Re: Which did it better, GT or Super?

Post by Torturephile » Fri May 04, 2018 10:08 am

I never saw any similarity between Baby and Zamasu until it was brought up in this thread, and even then, I still don't see it unless I look too hard into it. To me, the only thing they share is being my favorite villains of their respective series. That's all, folks.
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hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.
namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
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