Which did it better, GT or Super?

[Rakurai]

Honestly, I'd rather watch a Dragon Ball be all about Goku and give him decent character development than have him star in his own show as a manchild who feels like he's regressed since his Z days.

GT contrary to popular opinion actually gave development to other characters. Like Pan, Uub, 18, Vegeta (he even had an ENTIRE episode dedicated to him!). And not made it feel as if it were fanservice like the ToP did showcasing a Universe 7 member of the week.

Both shows had great ideas, mediocre to poor execution or at least they could've been done better. Although the Baby arc was done just fine imo.

I do like Super for the fact that it introduced a whole slew of characters especially Universe 6. More Saiyans = more entertainment and hype. Saiyans do run the show, after all. But the narrative was absolutely cringeworthy and there was poor consistency to the progression of several characters. It didn't help with the fact that several characters' battle prowess were inconsistent as well. SSB was just a joke being used all the time for no good reason or to very little effect.

Being vague is actually a good thing writing wise, because it doesn't treat the audience like idiots and spoon-feed all the info, letting the audience think for themselves and allow their imagination to run wild.

You can't be serious about this. Not clarifying vague or missing information is a horrible narrative decision and goes against the idea of lore building which is exactly what you just preached. The Goku Black arc time-travelling shenanigans being a convoluted mess is an example of just that.

[blain218]

I mean is Jiren vs Goku not arguably the best fight in the franchise? Whether it be the fights of 109 and 110 or 129-131those are the best of the best. Gohan had his moments vs Dyspo and the U6 Namekians, Vegeta was actually portrayed as being powerful and his most significant victory in the entire franchise against Toppo, the master Roshi episodes, the superb animation, the contrast in motives and ideals between the fighters, not sure how you could consider it to be on the same level as GT

In terms of animation? Probably. In terms of drama and the fight choreography? Not even close.

Gohan was useless throughout the entire tournament and I was questioning myself why he just wouldn't go full power to deal with weaklings. He had a cool moment when he felt a shred of guilt after he defeated Obuni and that could have been used as a good pretext for him (and literally everyone else besides Freeza) to subconsciously hold back, but in typical Super fashion, they did nothing with it; just like they did nothing with Gohan after 20 odd episodes of the recruitment arc hyping him up as an integral part of the team.

Vegeta was terrible throughout the entire tournament. I think the only episode he was good in was #107 because he interacted with a character for the first time (Roshi) and actually showed, in a natural and organic way, his warmer and more tender side following the Boo arc. In the rest of the tournament? He regressed back to Cell arc Vegeta (identified, for instance, by the fact that he went back to using "ore-sama" which Boo arc Vegeta dropped; though we could already see this particular regression back in the Black arc as well) when interacting with Goku or anyone else that wasn't Cabba/his family. When interacting with the latter group of people, they'd just shove the exact same moments down our throats for the entirety of the arc; as if we, the audience, didn't know that Vegeta loved his family.

There was no compelling conflict of "motives and ideals," since everything was extremely superficial and lacking in any kind of depth. How could there be a compelling conflict when the premise of the arc - that is, that billions of innocent people die whenever you eliminate a universe - is seemingly ignored by everyone fighting? How can I take any of the artificial drama in this tournament seriously if they don't even discuss the elephant in the room? The only time there was any kind of "contrast in motives and ideals between the fighters" was in the Toppo vs Vegeta and Goku vs Jiren fights. And, again, they were extremely superficial. Toppo just gets a power-up; the implications of his change and his resolution are dropped, there's nothing internal happening. Vegeta defeats Toppo by literally repeating one of the major moments in the Boo arc (if there is one thing you don't do is defeat a major antagonist by rehashing a previous moment, because that means that fight literally has no identity of its own). Goku vs Jiren was even worse considering how bad Jiren's backstory was and how needlessly melodramatic #130 was; there is no need to verbalize in such an over-the-top way something that was always fine as subtext. Another fight lacking an identity.

The Roshi episodes had their problems (namely 105) but they were good, I agree. But 2 good episodes in a 40-episode arc doesn't mean the arc isn't shit.

I compare it to GT because they both do the same thing: they introduce a very intriguing premise with the potential for very interesting character conflict and that could serve as a way for personal introspection, and they literally do nothing with their concepts. They drop the implications of their premise like a rock. At least GT has an identity of its own following its first 15 or so episodes. Super lacks any identity whatsoever. It just relies on the impact and quality of the previous series to hold it up and on the tropes that modern shows popularized to keep it afloat. If you're entertained with good animation and flashy moments, that's fine, more power to you. But it'll take more than meaningless spectacle, especially when the previous series always had something more under its (better) spectacle, to get something out of me.

This is just objectively false all around.

1. There was nothing really wrong with Vegeta in the ToP. The claims about him regressing to his Cell saga self are complete retarded. At no point does Vegeta do or are say anything in all Super like he does in most of Z. He's not the same asshole who would treat his family and allies like trash, nor the guy who would make things worse for everyone just to wax his ego. Character development is about becoming more fleshed out/3D overtime, not changing from one personality to another (which nobody actually does in real life because personality traits are innate and lifelong.) So to argue that Vegeta got no development or that he "regressed" in Super because he didn't do anything "new" is extremely retarded. So is complaining about Vegeta calling him "ore-sama", that's like complaining about him still calling Goku Kakarot. Doing new things isn't character development, expanding on already existing traits is. And Super for most part does a good job of this Vegeta and many of the others.

2. Goku vs Jiren and Vegeta vs Toppo were the only time there was ever supposed to be contrast in ideals. The point of Vegeta vs Toppo was that you don't have to give up what you believe in to be strong, the point of Goku vs Jiren was that relying on others doesn't make you weak (which fits right in the whole franchise because almost all wins against the main antagonist were do to teamwork). I don't see the problem people have with these, its like Super haters just love to whine and bitch just for its own sake.

To argue that GT had better character development (let alone story) is pure foolishness. No one in GT had any development, we learned nothing new about any of the cast nor did they expanded on the old. Hell, Goku and Pan were the only ones who got any screentime they did nothing memorable with them.

[blain218]

Honestly, I'd rather watch a Dragon Ball be all about Goku and give him decent character development than have him star in his own show as a manchild who feels like he's regressed since his Z days.

GT contrary to popular opinion actually gave development to other characters. Like Pan, Uub, 18, Vegeta (he even had an ENTIRE episode dedicated to him!). And not made it feel as if it were fanservice like the ToP did showcasing a Universe 7 member of the week.

Both shows had great ideas, mediocre to poor execution or at least they could've been done better. Although the Baby arc was done just fine imo.

I do like Super for the fact that it introduced a whole slew of characters especially Universe 6. More Saiyans = more entertainment and hype. Saiyans do run the show, after all. But the narrative was absolutely cringeworthy and there was poor consistency to the progression of several characters. It didn't help with the fact that several characters' battle prowess were inconsistent as well. SSB was just a joke being used all the time for no good reason or to very little effect.

Being vague is actually a good thing writing wise, because it doesn't treat the audience like idiots and spoon-feed all the info, letting the audience think for themselves and allow their imagination to run wild.

You can't be serious about this. Not clarifying vague or missing information is a horrible narrative decision and goes against the idea of lore building which is exactly what you just preached. The Goku Black arc time-travelling shenanigans being a convoluted mess is an example of just that.

1. GT didn't have development. Vegeta's GT episode was just had reminiscing about the past and how he can't catch up to Goku, it was a repeat of his "Vegeta admits Goku is the best" moment in Z. Pan, Uub nor 18 had any special arc or dynamics to them either in GT. Super actually gives the supporting cast moments to shine on their own, which GT never really did.

2. Enough with the complains about power levels. Why is it so hard for people to believe that someone is holding back even when they say they are holding back? Unless shit like Krillin beating Beerus in an all-out fight happens (which never did), you can't seriously complain about powerscaling in Super. Also, the reason Goku keeps using SSB is to master and perfect it, as Whis recommends him to in the RoF arc.

3. Being vague about details that aren't critical to the main plot of an arc (like the status of the other 4 verses in the ToP and the missing 6 afterwards) is a good idea because it keeps the lore open ended and builds speculation and fan interest. If it doesn't break the narrative, it isn't a problem.

[Rakurai]

1. GT didn't have development. Vegeta's GT episode was just had reminiscing about the past and how he can't catch up to Goku, it was a repeat of his "Vegeta admits Goku is the best" moment in Z. Pan, Uub nor 18 had any special arc or dynamics to them either in GT. Super actually gives the supporting cast moments to shine on their own, which GT never really did.

2. Enough with the complains about power levels. Why is it so hard for people to believe that someone is holding back even when they say they are holding back? Unless shit like Krillin beating Beerus in an all-out fight happens (which never did), you can't seriously complain about powerscaling in Super. Also, the reason Goku keeps using SSB is to master and perfect it, as Whis recommends him to in the RoF arc.

3. Being vague about details that aren't critical to the main plot of an arc (like the status of the other 4 verses in the ToP and the missing 6 afterwards) is a good idea because it keeps the lore open ended and builds speculation and fan interest. If it doesn't break the narrative, it isn't a problem.

1. That's still development, because he questioned the enormous power gap relative to Goku this time around until Bulma showed him the way. 18 showed she cared for Krillin deeply and wanted to avenge him; Uub discovered his origins and realized through Buu how important Satan is to the people; Pan grew to respect Goku and even miss him at the end of GT. These are all character developments, however brief some of them might be.

2. Power levels/scaling is only one issue out of many I addressed briefly. But since you fixated on that part. For a show that's supposed to be about battle, it's important to establish consistency in the standings and growth progression of characters. The Super anime doesn't do this very well. You can build your own headcanon and excuse every moment with 'Oh yeah he was holding back even though he looks like he's getting his ass kicked' but the fact that he uses it for almost everything cheapens the transformation. See LSSJ Kale vs. SSB Goku, for example. Might be a matter of preference, but I ended up viewing the form in a very banal manner. The Super manga, however, does it well imo (probably because it's written by only one person) and I hope it continues this trend.

3. I didn't even complain about the lack of exposition on the other universes. Besides, why would the hell would the audience even care about the previously erased six universes just because they were mentioned only once to hype up Zen-chan? It's clear they are about as relevant as Yamcha. Speculation and fan interest don't matter in the grand scheme of telling a coherent, consistent, and engaging story, which Super failed to do in my eyes. Poor retelling of the two films, time-travelling convolution, lack of tension in the ToP, Jiren's generic backstory, and various fanservice moments just makes the Super anime a hard pill for me to swallow as a worthy successor series of Dragon Ball.

[blain218]

1. GT didn't have development. Vegeta's GT episode was just had reminiscing about the past and how he can't catch up to Goku, it was a repeat of his "Vegeta admits Goku is the best" moment in Z. Pan, Uub nor 18 had any special arc or dynamics to them either in GT. Super actually gives the supporting cast moments to shine on their own, which GT never really did.

2. Enough with the complains about power levels. Why is it so hard for people to believe that someone is holding back even when they say they are holding back? Unless shit like Krillin beating Beerus in an all-out fight happens (which never did), you can't seriously complain about powerscaling in Super. Also, the reason Goku keeps using SSB is to master and perfect it, as Whis recommends him to in the RoF arc.

3. Being vague about details that aren't critical to the main plot of an arc (like the status of the other 4 verses in the ToP and the missing 6 afterwards) is a good idea because it keeps the lore open ended and builds speculation and fan interest. If it doesn't break the narrative, it isn't a problem.

1. That's still development, because he questioned the enormous power gap relative to Goku this time around until Bulma showed him the way. 18 showed she cared for Krillin deeply and wanted to avenge him; Uub discovered his origins and realized through Buu how important Satan is to the people; Pan grew to respect Goku and even miss him at the end of GT. These are all character developments, however brief some of them might be.

2. Power levels/scaling is only one issue out of many I addressed briefly. But since you fixated on that part. For a show that's supposed to be about battle, it's important to establish consistency in the standings and growth progression of characters. The Super anime doesn't do this very well. You can build your own headcanon and excuse every moment with 'Oh yeah he was holding back even though he looks like he's getting his ass kicked' but the fact that he uses it for almost everything cheapens the transformation. See LSSJ Kale vs. SSB Goku, for example. Might be a matter of preference, but I ended up viewing the form in a very banal manner. The Super manga, however, does it well imo (probably because it's written by only one person) and I hope it continues this trend.

3. I didn't even complain about the lack of exposition on the other universes. Besides, why would the hell would the audience even care about the previously erased six universes just because they were mentioned only once to hype up Zen-chan? It's clear they are about as relevant as Yamcha. Speculation and fan interest don't matter in the grand scheme of telling a coherent, consistent, and engaging story, which Super failed to do in my eyes. Poor retelling of the two films, time-travelling convolution, lack of tension in the ToP, Jiren's generic backstory, and various fanservice moments just makes the Super anime a hard pill for me to swallow as a worthy successor series of Dragon Ball.

2. What exactly is so inconsistent about the powerlevels in Super? If the show's dialouge itself literally tells you that he is holding back then its not headcanon. Even in early DB an Z, characters would hold back all the time even when using there strongest forms. Why the hell is that so hard for people to get? Its like this fandom is so retarded. LSSJ Kale vs SSB Goku is a bad example because they literally made it clear that he wasn't trying against her, he didn't even take any real damage against her in that episode. It was also explained early on that Goku constantly uses the Blue form to perfect and master it (he does the same thing in the manga), just like how he and Gohan stayed in SSJ1 during the Cell Games while suppressing himself in daily life. The manga's powerscaling is no different, I don't know why people like to pretend it is. And you shouldn't be bitching about transformations being "cheapened" since be your logic every new form gets cheapened the moment someone stronger than it shows up, like how the Androids "cheapened" SSJ1 .

As always, people who whine and bitch about Super's powerscaling are usually idiots how have no idea what powerscaling even is. If A>B and B>C then A>C, that's all powerscaling is and its never been contradicted in Super. What exactly is so inconsistent about stuff like Freeza becoming god-level in 4 months and 17 doing the same in over a decade? What exactly was so inconsistent about ANY major fight in Super scaling wise? They never give a logically answer when I call them out on their whining.

3. None of the main plot points of the ToP and Black arcs were all that confusing or vague in the first place. They already explained how time travel works in the Android arc so there was no reason for them to go over it again in the Black arc. What exactly was so convoluted about the Black arc time travel? Story wise, the Black and ToP arcs are easily objectively better than the Buu saga and all of GT. You'd have to be blinded by nostalgia to disagree lol. Jiren in the last 2 episode surprising showed more development than Buu did in the entire Buu saga lol or any GT villain ever for that matter. The ToP arc had some of the best fights in the whole franchise and and gave more character development to the non-saiyan cast than most of Z and all of GT did.

[JazzMazz]

I just want to get this off my chest since a lot of people are showcasing it as an example of Super being good, or something Super did well in.

Episode 105 is awful.

Its an episode, with literally no real redeeming elements to it. At all.

Its woefully abysmal in every single department. Animation, storyboard, art direction, direction, script, it has nothing going for it in any of them.

In terms of animation, its one of the most lifeless and static episodes of the entire tournament.

In terms of storyboarding, the episode is and action are flatter than a pancake, which is magnified by the terrible art direction.

The general direction doesn't help either, with none of the narrative beats landing in the least due to the horrid music placement that serves like white noise in the background, instead of enhancing it and horrible transitions that make the episode feel choppy in terms of pacing. All attempts to create atmosphere are squashed not only by the aforementioned art direction, but also by the really garrish and poorly implemented colour choices.

It isn't even like the narrative aspect of the episode is any good. We start off the episode in a really dull and cringy fight with a really poor rape joke, have another dull battle against one of the ugliest character designs introduced in the franchise, followed by a poor, extended battle with an opponent sporting another of the ugliest character designs in the franchise, and end the episode on an artificial death fake out scene. That's not even mentioning how the episode feels completely at odds with a lot of the themes and idea's related to Roshi's character that were established in the recruitment arc. The only real "positive" about the narrative of the episode, is that it sort of tries to justify Roshi being there. That's really it.

All these things come together to form a completely lifeless husk of an episode that has no emotional impact what so ever. I wouldn't say its the worst episode of the tournament(thanks 100), buts its definitely up there.

Roshi did get a genuinely fantastic episode in 107, but 105, just isn't it.

So can people please stop using it as an example of a good episode, because it really isn't at all. You might enjoy it the first time you watched it because Roshi was being unexpectedly cool, but once the initial cool factor is out of your system it loses the only I don't think there is very much to come back to since it doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny. So please for the love of God, don't mention it when talking about how good Super is, it only really serves to hurt your point.

Sorry for going off topic, but I just feel extremely strongly about this subject matter in particular.

[Cetra]

Just throwing out guys, using the word "objectively" 100000 times, and then even objectively wrong, does not make it properly used and adds no magical truth to the fan claims you want to state.

[Lord Beerus]

I just want to get this off my chest since a lot of people are showcasing it as an example of Super being good, or something Super did well in.

Episode 105 is awful.

Its an episode, with literally no real redeeming elements to it. At all.

Its woefully abysmal in every single department. Animation, storyboard, art direction, direction, script, it has nothing going for it in any of them.

In terms of animation, its one of the most lifeless and static episodes of the entire tournament.

In terms of storyboarding, the episode is and action are flatter than a pancake, which is magnified by the terrible art direction.

The general direction doesn't help either, with none of the narrative beats landing in the least due to the horrid music placement that serves like white noise in the background, instead of enhancing it and horrible transitions that make the episode feel choppy in terms of pacing. All attempts to create atmosphere are squashed not only by the aforementioned art direction, but also by the really garrish and poorly implemented colour choices.

It isn't even like the narrative aspect of the episode is any good. We start off the episode in a really dull and cringy fight with a really poor rape joke, have another dull battle against one of the ugliest character designs introduced in the franchise, followed by a poor, extended battle with an opponent sporting another of the ugliest character designs in the franchise, and end the episode on an artificial death fake out scene. That's not even mentioning how the episode feels completely at odds with a lot of the themes and idea's related to Roshi's character that were established in the recruitment arc. The only real "positive" about the narrative of the episode, is that it sort of tries to justify Roshi being there. That's really it.

All these things come together to form a completely lifeless husk of an episode that has no emotional impact what so ever. I wouldn't say its the worst episode of the tournament(thanks 100), buts its definitely up there.

Roshi did get a genuinely fantastic episode in 107, but 105, just isn't it.

So can people please stop using it as an example of a good episode, because it really isn't at all. You might enjoy it the first time you watched it because Roshi was being unexpectedly cool, but once the initial cool factor is out of your system it loses the only I don't think there is very much to come back to since it doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny. So please for the love of God, don't mention it when talking about how good Super is, it only really serves to hurt your point.

Sorry for going off topic, but I just feel extremely strongly about this subject matter in particular.

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

But on real note, I LOVE the episode. As does a lot of other fans.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Doctor.]

Christ, who let Youtube in again?

This is just objectively false all around.

The list of stuff that is "objective" about art is very short. My opinion about the execution of certain beats isn't objectively true nor objectively false; it's my opinion, the same as yours. For you to throw around the word "objectively" so loosely makes me think this won't be a very productive discussion.

1. There was nothing really wrong with Vegeta in the ToP. The claims about him regressing to his Cell saga self are complete retarded. At no point does Vegeta do or are say anything in all Super like he does in most of Z. He's not the same asshole who would treat his family and allies like trash, nor the guy who would make things worse for everyone just to wax his ego. Character development is about becoming more fleshed out/3D overtime, not changing from one personality to another (which nobody actually does in real life because personality traits are innate and lifelong.) So to argue that Vegeta got no development or that he "regressed" in Super because he didn't do anything "new" is extremely retarded. So is complaining about Vegeta calling him "ore-sama", that's like complaining about him still calling Goku Kakarot. Doing new things isn't character development, expanding on already existing traits is.

If you want to ignore Vegeta going back to calling himself "ore-sama" and think that's fine, then that's on you, but that's still something that Boo arc Vegeta dropped. Now this is objective; we can verify that Boo arc Vegeta dropped "ore-sama" in favor of "ore" whilst Super Vegeta went back to call himself the more arrogant "ore-sama". Whether it's character regression or not is a matter of opinion, but, in my eyes, it's clear as day that it is, specifically because Boo arc Vegeta dropped the pronoun because it no longer fit with his personality. I'm not being pedantic either, there are other cases of character regression in the series, this is just the most clear of them all. Stuff like Vegeta attacking Goku in the RF arc for no reason and him refusing to give him Ki for the Genkidama stick out like a sore-thumb, especially when such moments are immediately juxtaposed with stuff like him saving Goku from Freeza and saving Roshi and treating him with respect. He's inconsistently written, which is what you would expect when you have such a huge list of scenario writers, each with their own interpretation of Vegeta. The few times he acts like Boo arc Vegeta are, as I said, when he's talking to or reminiscing about his family, but that's not "character development" as you so adamantly claim. It's not because they don't do anything new with it. Vegeta loves his family. Cool. We knew this back in the Boo arc. They're shoehorned moments to make you remember how Vegeta is actually supposed to act like, after 25 other episodes of him acting like a useless, bitter tsundere for no reason.

And Super for most part does a good job of this Vegeta and many of the others.

I agree. I like what Super has done with Freeza, #17 and Trunks (and, to a lesser extent, Vegetto too). I think they're overall improvements over the original versions, even if I still have my gripes with the way they were handled. Super is good at fleshing out characters that came back after a long period of absence. It just isn't good at doing anything good with the characters we see on-screen all the time. And Vegeta is one of them.

2. Goku vs Jiren and Vegeta vs Toppo were the only time there was ever supposed to be contrast in ideals. The point of Vegeta vs Toppo was that you don't have to give up what you believe in to be strong, the point of Goku vs Jiren was that relying on others doesn't make you weak (which fits right in the whole franchise because almost all wins against the main antagonist were do to teamwork). I don't see the problem people have with these, its like Super haters just love to whine and bitch just for its own sake.

I didn't claim the conflicts weren't there, I'm not sure where you got that from. I said they were poorly executed. Vegeta vs Toppo because: there was no point of transition in Toppo's change; there was no introspection in regards to the implications of his newfound resolve; Toppo had already made the whole "justice is useless" speech beforehand in the tournament (only to go back screaming about JUSTEESE the next episode), so for him to change this time is completely arbitrary; and the entire episode was poorly written since it was a poor rehash of a previous, better moment (giving it no identity of its own) and contradicted everything that the previous one had established in regards to Toppo's abilities. As for Jiren vs Goku, it was bad because: it was needlessly melodramatic and poorly executed because of how it vocalizes into an actual theme something that has been subtext for the entirety of the series beforehand; it lacks an identity of its own too since the dialogue might as well have been pulled straight out of another poor Shounen; and the theme being pushed contradicts what had been established in #129 about how UI functioned.

I see the conflicts there, they're just bad. An example of a much better conflict in modern DB can be found in BoG (both the film version and Super, though they go about it in different ways; BoG gives Goku a character arc whilst Super gives Beerus one). It's subtle, nuanced and original, all of which the ToP lacks.

To argue that GT had better character development (let alone story) is pure foolishness. No one in GT had any development, we learned nothing new about any of the cast nor did they expanded on the old. Hell, Goku and Pan were the only ones who got any screentime they did nothing memorable with them.

I never argued that GT had better character development than Super, and for you to claim that makes me wonder if you're actually arguing against me, or some kind of projection about what those darn Super haters are like. What I actually said was that both GT and Super are shit shows, but Super is at least entertaining, so "I'll still hold Super above GT." On the other hand, GT isn't enough of a pussy to back away from its premise and it still has its own identity, so it has that going for it. Nowhere did I say GT had better character development, and I don't even understand why you're acting as if character development is the holy grail of what a good story should have.

The claims about him regressing to his Cell saga self are complete retarded. [...] in Super because he didn't do anything "new" is extremely retarded. [...] its like Super haters just love to whine and bitch just for its own sake. [...] As always, people who whine and bitch about Super's powerscaling are usually idiots how have no idea what powerscaling even is. [...] They never give a logically answer when I call them out on their whining.

And lastly, I'd tone down the attitude if I were you because you're not on Youtube or wherever you come from anymore, you're on a forum with rules. You'll just get banned at this rate for breaking rule 4.

[Rakurai]

2. What exactly is so inconsistent about the powerlevels in Super? If the show's dialouge itself literally tells you that he is holding back then its not headcanon. Even in early DB an Z, characters would hold back all the time even when using there strongest forms. Why the hell is that so hard for people to get? Its like this fandom is so retarded. LSSJ Kale vs SSB Goku is a bad example because they literally made it clear that he wasn't trying against her, he didn't even take any real damage against her in that episode. It was also explained early on that Goku constantly uses the Blue form to perfect and master it (he does the same thing in the manga), just like how he and Gohan stayed in SSJ1 during the Cell Games while suppressing himself in daily life. The manga's powerscaling is no different, I don't know why people like to pretend it is. And you shouldn't be bitching about transformations being "cheapened" since be your logic every new form gets cheapened the moment someone stronger than it shows up, like how the Androids "cheapened" SSJ1 .

As always, people who whine and bitch about Super's powerscaling are usually idiots how have no idea what powerscaling even is. If A>B and B>C then A>C, that's all powerscaling is and its never been contradicted in Super. What exactly is so inconsistent about stuff like Freeza becoming god-level in 4 months and 17 doing the same in over a decade? What exactly was so inconsistent about ANY major fight in Super scaling wise? They never give a logically answer when I call them out on their whining.

3. None of the main plot points of the ToP and Black arcs were all that confusing or vague in the first place. They already explained how time travel works in the Android arc so there was no reason for them to go over it again in the Black arc. What exactly was so convoluted about the Black arc time travel? Story wise, the Black and ToP arcs are easily objectively better than the Buu saga and all of GT. You'd have to be blinded by nostalgia to disagree lol. Jiren in the last 2 episode surprising showed more development than Buu did in the entire Buu saga lol or any GT villain ever for that matter. The ToP arc had some of the best fights in the whole franchise and and gave more character development to the non-saiyan cast than most of Z and all of GT did.

You seem to be triggered, so I'll try to keep this brief.

No, they did not make it clear in LSSJ Kale vs. SSB Goku. You go back and watch that scene, and tell me where did Goku imply he was holding back, from the time he launched that Kamehameha, up until when Kale grabbed him like a toy and tossed him aside like an afterthought.

If you read the Super manga, the way it portrays and uses SSG/SSB compared to the anime is as clear as night and day.

I don't care about Freeza becoming god level in four months. 17 doing it over a decade makes no sense because we know that in F. Trunks' future, he was still weak af. There was precedence. But for the sake of plot convenience, let's say he did get that strong, his power standing is still all over the place based on his battles in the ToP.

For the sake of this thread, I don't want to turn this into a strength/powerscaling debate. I think we already have another thread for that. We can debate there more if you like.

The timeline situation was a clusterfuck and this is evident on many levels. Just look up the theories surrounding how the timelines affect one another. The fact that we have this just demonstrates that the show did not explain things very well. The fact that Toei had to create a chart, which still confuses people to this day, implies that they (or Toriyama) made things needlessly complicated.

Jiren is a character that was horribly handled in the anime. His backstory was anticlimatic and his motivations as generic as they could come. His personality change made him into another big bad buy just to glorify Goku's friendship power for some ludicrous reason. And it's not Toei's fault entirely, it's Toriyama's for not giving them enough material to work with Jiren at the beginning of production. The manga handled his motivations and character introduction much better.

The ToP had some great fights, no doubt about that. But they don't make up for the poor execution of the story and handle on some characters. What did Piccolo do besides serve as a kid-friendly tool for gore by having his arms ripped out left and right? Roshi's development went against the original idea of the manga, that he retired and left things up to the new generation. He was just pure fanservice, and should have no place in a tournament with the strongest. Tien, we can all agree, was a joke. Gohan's role as a leader was empty and also a joke. 17 received no character development whatsoever since he remained nihilistic throughout the entire arc.

Calling other people who acknowledge Super's inconsistency flaws as idiots is one way to make yourself even less credible. And as someone said, saying something is 'objectively better' does not give more credit to your argument, because opinions aren't objective at all and indicates you are trying to compensate for something that's not there. I don't care about nostalgia because I think both GT and Super were poorly handled, but if one was more structurally, narratively, and thematically consistent with its predecessor, then it would be GT. Please grow up and realize that not everyone shares the same rose-tinted views as you on Super.

[VegettoEX]

Just throwing out guys, using the word "objectively" 100000 times, and then even objectively wrong, does not make it properly used and adds no magical truth to the fan claims you want to state.

From an administrative perspective, I basically just want to highlight this big time in light of some of the reports we have coming in.

You seem to be triggered

Considering how much time and effort you're clearly willing to take with your contributions, I'm sure you can find more appropriate ways to kick-off some posts.

With regard to each of the above, it's about setting an example and living up to our community guidelines. We love getting and entertaining your in-depth, reasonable takes on the franchise. Don't devalue them with rubbish along the way.

[blain218]

You seem to be triggered, so I'll try to keep this brief.

No, they did not make it clear in LSSJ Kale vs. SSB Goku. You go back and watch that scene, and tell me where did Goku imply he was holding back, from the time he launched that Kamehameha, up until when Kale grabbed him like a toy and tossed him aside like an afterthought.

The fact that Goku took zero damage after the Kale situation, loss no stamina, his clothes weren't damage, he said he was fine, etc. all point to the fact that he was holding back. Its common sense. Plus, Goku would later fight a stronger Kale in just SSJ2, proving he wasn't going all out on Kale before.

If you read the Super manga, the way it portrays and uses SSG/SSB compared to the anime is as clear as night and day.

Examples please? otherwise you are just spewing bs lol.

I don't care about Freeza becoming god level in four months. 17 doing it over a decade makes no sense because we know that in F. Trunks' future, he was still weak af. There was precedence. But for the sake of plot convenience, let's say he did get that strong, his power standing is still all over the place based on his battles in the ToP.

17 was never said to have trained in the future timeline, but he did in the present one. That's the explanation. Toriyama himself even said that 17 and 18 can improve with training. Plus, if Freeza can become god-level with 4 months of training, why can't 17 (who is naturally better) do it in over a decade?

The timeline situation was a clusterfuck and this is evident on many levels. Just look up the theories surrounding how the timelines affect one another. The fact that we have this just demonstrates that the show did not explain things very well. The fact that Toei had to create a chart, which still confuses people to this day, implies that they (or Toriyama) made things needlessly complicated.

They made a chart because many people are too stupid to get it even when the show explains it. They also made a chart for the android timelines in the Daizenshuu too for that same reason. Its not the series fault that other people are stupid.

Jiren is a character that was horribly handled in the anime. His backstory was anticlimatic and his motivations as generic as they could come. His personality change made him into another big bad buy just to glorify Goku's friendship power for some ludicrous reason. And it's not Toei's fault entirely, it's Toriyama's for not giving them enough material to work with Jiren at the beginning of production. The manga handled his motivations and character introduction much better.

Jiren has the exact same personality and motivations in the manga lmao, the cognitive dissonance in this fandom is embarrassing. Storytelling wise, the manga is generally worse than the anime, especially when it comes the Goku Black arc. It takes away much of the spotlight and development that the supporting cast got in the anime just to make it more of a Goku and Vegeta show. But that's another topic.

The ToP had some great fights, no doubt about that. But they don't make up for the poor execution of the story and handle on some characters. What did Piccolo do besides serve as a kid-friendly tool for gore by having his arms ripped out left and right? Roshi's development went against the original idea of the manga, that he retired and left things up to the new generation. He was just pure fanservice, and should have no place in a tournament with the strongest. Tien, we can all agree, was a joke. Gohan's role as a leader was empty and also a joke. 17 received no character development whatsoever since he remained nihilistic throughout the entire arc.

Again, this is mostly bullshit lmao. Roshi never said to have retired in Z and even if did, people come out of retirement all the time so you have nothing to whine about there. Claiming 17 got no development in the ToP is the most bullshit argument I've ever heard lmao. Its just a dumb as saying Vegeta got no development in Z. Throughtout this entire arc, we've seen new sides to his character and interesting interactions with others that we haven't seen in Z, and since when was 17 ever a nihilist? You're not making any sense. Gohan's performance in the ToP was decent, you're right about Tien and Piccolo though, but at least Tien actually got to eliminate someone in the anime version unlike the manga where he and Krillin get knocked out before accomplishing anything.

Calling other people who acknowledge Super's inconsistency flaws as idiots is one way to make yourself even less credible. And as someone said, saying something is 'objectively better' does not give more credit to your argument, because opinions aren't objective at all and indicates you are trying to compensate for something that's not there. I don't care about nostalgia because I think both GT and Super were poorly handled, but if one was more structurally, narratively, and thematically consistent with its predecessor, then it would be GT. Please grow up and realize that not everyone shares the same rose-tinted views as you on Super.

What rose-tinted view? How is using logic and evidence based arguments having a "rose-tinted view"? I'm being objective because I'm refer to literal facts on what the show says and does, your arguments basically boil down to "muh feelings" lmao. You are the one that compensating for something bro. Also, you give zero proof and examples of how GT is more "structurally, narratively, and thematically consistent" than Super, so I can dismiss that as nonsense.

You are the one how needs to grow up.

[VegettoEX]

It's frustrating and makes little sense for you to directly follow an administrator's request for civil, thoughtful conversation with comments about "spewing bs" and "grow up".

This is a final freebie, and subsequent posts will be issued strikes accordingly by the moderation staff. Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website. Please strive for something more and re-evaluate what you are looking to get out of your time here.

[blain218]

The list of stuff that is "objective" about art is very short. My opinion about the execution of certain beats isn't objectively true nor objectively false; it's my opinion, the same as yours. For you to throw around the word "objectively" so loosely makes me think this won't be a very productive discussion.

This is relativist nonsense.

If you want to ignore Vegeta going back to calling himself "ore-sama" and think that's fine, then that's on you, but that's still something that Boo arc Vegeta dropped. Now this is objective; we can verify that Boo arc Vegeta dropped "ore-sama" in favor of "ore" whilst Super Vegeta went back to call himself the more arrogant "ore-sama". Whether it's character regression or not is a matter of opinion, but, in my eyes, it's clear as day that it is, specifically because Boo arc Vegeta dropped the pronoun because it no longer fit with his personality. I'm not being pedantic either, there are other cases of character regression in the series, this is just the most clear of them all. Stuff like Vegeta attacking Goku in the RF arc for no reason and him refusing to give him Ki for the Genkidama stick out like a sore-thumb, especially when such moments are immediately juxtaposed with stuff like him saving Goku from Freeza and saving Roshi and treating him with respect. He's inconsistently written, which is what you would expect when you have such a huge list of scenario writers, each with their own interpretation of Vegeta. The few times he acts like Boo arc Vegeta are, as I said, when he's talking to or reminiscing about his family, but that's not "character development" as you so adamantly claim. It's not because they don't do anything new with it. Vegeta loves his family. Cool. We knew this back in the Boo arc. They're shoehorned moments to make you remember how Vegeta is actually supposed to act like, after 25 other episodes of him acting like a useless, bitter tsundere for no reason.

Those are extremely petty complaints and it sounds like you are digging for dirt lol. You must have very autistic, 1D view of how personalities work if you think Vegeta is written inconsistently in Super. What you and other complainers who falsely believe that he got no development in Super don't get is that core personality traits like arrogance and pride are innate to a person's nature, last a lifetime and are not a subject to chance with experience. Claiming Vegeta "regressed" because he shows familiar personality traits reveal your aspergish ignorance of how personalities actually work.

Like many, you falsely assume that character development means changing into a different personality over time (which no one truly does in real life). Character development is when character becomes more fleshed-out by elaborating on their existing core traits( which is exactly what Super does with Vegeta by elaborating on his ideals as a man, relationships with other characters and how they connect), not giving them new ones. For example no character in Game of Thrones (or any HBO drama) or any Shakespeare play actually changes from beginning to end, would you claim those stories have no character development? Of course not because that would be retarded. So claiming that Vegeta still acting like a tsundere is him "regressing" is really dumb. A psychopath turning into a nice guy is not character development, that's just unnatural and unrealistic.

I didn't claim the conflicts weren't there, I'm not sure where you got that from. I said they were poorly executed. Vegeta vs Toppo because: there was no point of transition in Toppo's change; there was no introspection in regards to the implications of his newfound resolve; Toppo had already made the whole "justice is useless" speech beforehand in the tournament (only to go back screaming about JUSTEESE the next episode), so for him to change this time is completely arbitrary; and the entire episode was poorly written since it was a poor rehash of a previous, better moment (giving it no identity of its own) and contradicted everything that the previous one had established in regards to Toppo's abilities. As for Jiren vs Goku, it was bad because: it was needlessly melodramatic and poorly executed because of how it vocalizes into an actual theme something that has been subtext for the entirety of the series beforehand; it lacks an identity of its own too since the dialogue might as well have been pulled straight out of another poor Shounen; and the theme being pushed contradicts what had been established in #129 about how UI functioned.

You mean like how the entire cast vocalized their relationships with Goku and Gohan at the climax of the Cell Games? You mean like how Goku vocalized to Freeza his relationship with Krillin in the middle of the fight on Namek? Or like how he vocalize his to King Piccolo his relationship with Krillin? Dragonball from day one was always written this way, it is very origin of many modern Shonen tropes and ideals. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... peCodifier It IS its identity, and Goku vs Jiren doesn't contradict a thing. Only an extreme amount of self-delusion and dishonesty would convince you otherwise lmao. Vocalizing its themes is something Dragonball has always done, especially when it comes to Vegeta and his pride in Z.

And no, the fight with Jiren doesn't contradict anything about UI. It was never said to be a state free of emotions and thoughts, as the Angels themselves have UI 24/7 yet are full of thoughts and emotions. Being able to move your body without thought doesn't mean actually being thoughtless lmao. Its not rocket science.

[Doctor.]

This is relativist nonsense.

It's centuries worth of advancement in literary criticism you're throwing away. Claiming something is 'objectively false' doesn't actually lay any credence to your argument if you don't explain what the objective standard we're judging stuff on is.

Like many, you falsely assume that character development means changing into a different personality over time (which no one truly does in real life).

Oh? But isn't that what Vegeta did in the original series? And Piccolo? Are they not completely different characters now in comparison to how they started? Complete 180s in fact. Are you really trying to equate real life with Dragon Ball right now?

Character development is when character becomes more fleshed-out by elaborating on their existing core traits( which is exactly what Super does with Vegeta by elaborating on his ideals as a man, relationships with other characters and how they connect), not giving them new ones. For example no character in Game of Thrones (or any HBO drama) or any Shakespeare play actually changes from beginning to end, would you claim those stories have no character development? Of course not because that would be retarded. So claiming that Vegeta still acting like a tsundere is him "regressing" is really dumb. A psychopath turning into a nice guy is not character development, that's just unnatural and unrealistic.

Yes, character development can be subtle and nuanced, and it doesn't need to be a big change in personality in order to be meaningful. But Vegeta doesn't progress in Super. You keep saying he does, but have yet to provide any examples. He's a) either exactly the same kind of softer and mellow Vegeta of the Boo arc or b) showcasing sprinkles of Cell arc Vegeta arrogance and recklessness, alternating between the two depending on who's writing the episode. At best, he's static, at worst, he has regressed. Either one you pick, it's not good for his character. He, and many other characters, is limited by his end of Z portrayal. We know already how he's gonna end up.

any Shakespeare play

Curious of you to name-drop Shakespeare when his plays are a great example of characters making almost complete 180s. Macbeth is a great example; his good qualities at the start make way for exclusively negative ones until he gets some shred of honor back in the end.

Name-dropping good authors (for no good reason) won't help your argument.

You mean like how the entire cast vocalized their relationships with Goku and Gohan at the climax of the Cell Games? You mean like how Goku vocalized to Freeza his relationship with Krillin in the middle of the fight on Namek? Or like how he vocalize his to King Piccolo his relationship with Krillin? Dragonball from day one was always written this way, it is very origin of many modern Shonen tropes and ideals. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... peCodifier It IS its identity, and Goku vs Jiren doesn't contradict a thing. Only an extreme amount of self-delusion and dishonesty would convince you otherwise lmao. Vocalizing its themes is something Dragonball has always done, especially when it comes to Vegeta and his pride in Z.

The difference lies in execution. Those scenes have their own identity, they fit in the context of the series and the drama being presented is unique to the scenario that had been written. Pluck Jiren and Goku's dialogue out of #130 and place it in Naruto or One Piece and you'll be find that it wouldn't feel out of place there.

And no, the fight with Jiren doesn't contradict anything about UI. It was never said to be a state free of emotions and thoughts, as the Angels themselves have UI 24/7 yet are full of thoughts and emotions. Being able to move your body without thought doesn't mean actually being thoughtless lmao. Its not rocket science.

Except Whis literally says the previous episode that Goku is ignoring "fear, hesitation and panic" and focusing only on himself and his opponent. What would Jiren trying to kill his friends provoke other than "fear, hesitation and panic"? They're external factors irrelevant to the fight.

[Cetra]

This is relativist nonsense.

No, it is - hold your breath - objectively true. We work by mainly contextualising things and only in context x those things have some certain truth, which does not necessarily mean that the next person does to live under the same standard. No one can take it away to have some value of truth in this context but that's it. If that person does not care about that context there is nothing to get from an argument; really the only thing worth arguing - if at anytime - would be if that person would claim that in exactly this context (so not another context that this person actually considers) it is something different. Only rarely, especially in such discussions there is something that can be considered universally true.

Those are extremely petty complaints and it sounds like you are digging for dirt lol. You must have very autistic, 1D view of how personalities work if you think Vegeta is written inconsistently in Super. What you and other complainers who falsely believe that he got no development in Super don't get is that core personality traits like arrogance and pride are innate to a person's nature, last a lifetime and are not a subject to chance with experience. Claiming Vegeta "regressed" because he shows familiar personality traits reveal your aspergish ignorance of how personalities actually work.

Like many, you falsely assume that character development means changing into a different personality over time (which no one truly does in real life). Character development is when character becomes more fleshed-out by elaborating on their existing core traits( which is exactly what Super does with Vegeta by elaborating on his ideals as a man, relationships with other characters and how they connect), not giving them new ones. For example no character in Game of Thrones (or any HBO drama) or any Shakespeare play actually changes from beginning to end, would you claim those stories have no character development? Of course not because that would be retarded. So claiming that Vegeta still acting like a tsundere is him "regressing" is really dumb. A psychopath turning into a nice guy is not character development, that's just unnatural and unrealistic.

The first line alone shows me you have no intention of reading what VegettoEX has written for you which was very merciful anyway, you have no idea what autism means but only parrot words that are popular all over the internet while using them psychologically wrong just so you can hopefully insult someone. And from a psychological perspective you have also no actual idea what a person is able to accomplish when it comes to their self-concept. And as inflexible as yours is I am quite sure you will have overstayed your welcome very soon with your condescending schoolyard bully ... or simply youtube-esque behaviour.

[Rakurai]

Considering how much time and effort you're clearly willing to take with your contributions, I'm sure you can find more appropriate ways to kick-off some posts.

With regard to each of the above, it's about setting an example and living up to our community guidelines. We love getting and entertaining your in-depth, reasonable takes on the franchise. Don't devalue them with rubbish along the way.

Sorry about that. I'll try to be more civil.

...

The fact that SSB Goku couldn't do anything worth his jack against LSSJ Kale yet SSG Goku is able to handle LSSJ v.2 Kale is the inconsistency. Like, was there any reason to go SSB if he was supposedly holding back if he could just go SSG? There is no sensible excuse to this and I am not going to play mental gymnastics to wrap my head around it.

FP-SSB overwhelming Hit who's only able to overcome 1/10th power of SSB. SSB Vegetto overwhelming Merged Zamasu. Completed SSB fighting on even terms against Merged Zamasu. Completed SSB Vegeta pushing Beerus to get serious, implied to be a potential GoD candidate. SSG Goku being more than a match for Toppo. Not using his god forms against 17. Goku not spamming SSG/SSB like an idiot throughout the manga ToP. Lastly, the fact that SSB had a downside which Goku and Vegeta both had to overcome to use the form efficiently. In the anime, I had no sense that SSG/SSB was any more special than other SSJ transformations.

Great, so as long as you're a cyborg, by having a full-time job catching poachers you can achieve the same results as you get from special training from the GoD and Angels themselves. Toriyama saying it so doesn't excuse such a poor narrative decision.

Calling other people stupid doesn't add credible substance to your argument. You do know that the primary target audience for DBS is a shonen audience? And likely a lot of younger kids also watch it. So I suppose if they don't get it it's because they're also too stupid. Way to go man.

Storytelling-wise, the manga does a far better job than the anime imo. It keeps the plot concise and simple, explaining things like the timelines in a coherent manner, gives the characters interesting dynamics like the strained relationship between Zamasu and Black, and doesn't primarily rely on fanservice to entertain its audience. You are being presumptuous to say that Jiren has the same personality as that in the anime. One will not kill at any cost, the other tries to kill Goku's friends just because of some petty reason. It's clear that character personalities can and do diverge between the two medium, as with Black, Toppo, and Kale.

Did you not read/watch the original Dragon Ball? He literally retired himself once he realized he was no match for Tien. He entrusted the task of defeating the evil King Piccolo to his students because he couldn't get the job done himself. Hell he didn't even participate in the 23rd Budokai tournament because he knew he'd be no match for his students. Where was Roshi in Namek? When the Cell Games started? Where was he when the Z fighters were trying to prevent Buu's resurrection? Maybe I don't care for Roshi much, but even the amount of spotlight he received relative to more relevant characters like Krillin and Tien was baffling. The fact that he was made to look better than his students goes against the original message in DB. His inclusion was just pure fanservice and not well-placed.

GT follows the same themes as DBZ, often a clash between an evil force vs. good. It uses lore from its previous shows such as the history between the Tsufurijins and Saiyans, innate power of the Oozaru transformation, and consequences of overusing the Dragon Balls. It had potential but it flanked. Super gets its fuel from fan-driven nostalgia and overused shonen tropes. The atmosphere of GT also felt more tense and difficult. I felt more sadness seeing Gohan, Goten, and Trunks follow Vegeta to his death match against Syn Shenron than I did at Vegeta's last stand against Toppo.

You throw around the word 'objective' like your argument is an end-all be-all. It's not and it doesn't contribute to anything except making you look arrogant and inflated. Criteria to what makes a show good aren't set in stone, nor are they wholly objective. All of our opinions are inherently subjective, which is why there's always discussion. Giving spotlight to long-time irrelevant characters or adding more lore like you claim does not inherently make a show better, especially the narrative or plot of the series.

[Pantalones]

17 doing it over a decade makes no sense because we know that in F. Trunks' future, he was still weak af.

#17 in Trunks' timeline was unrivaled in power. He had no reason to train because he was already the strongest being on the planet the moment he was released from his pod, with #18 being just a bit behind and everyone else he ever met falling far short. The two of them spent most of their time holding back just to draw things out longer when they went around destroying things and beating up Gohan and Trunks for fun.

#17 in the main timeline thought he was unrivaled in power... and then he saw Piccolo match him, then Cell show up and reveal that he'd grown even more powerful than Piccolo, then #16 reveal that he was about equal to Cell. And then Cell got stronger, the Saiyans got stronger, Cell got stronger again, Piccolo got stronger, the Saiyans got stronger again, Gohan unleashed his full power, Cell revealed his full power, Cell got stronger again... our #17 was confident in his power at first, but then repeatedly ran into (or saw through Cell's eyes) beings so much stronger than him that he couldn't do a thing against them in a fight. Just like Vegeta seeing how powerful Goku got leading up to the Freeza fight, or both of the adult Saiyans seeing how strong Gohan got during the Cell Games, this pushed #17 to train and get stronger. And since he'd never really trained before, he would've had plenty of untapped potential... which Dr. Gero's enhancements would then amplify even more as it was brought out.

#17's power increase makes a lot more sense than Freeza's.

(Though Freeza's boost does bring up the possibility of "what if the Ginyu Force had trained?", since we know they're also described as "mutants" with naturally high power levels and even Ginyu doesn't have enough ki training/experience to fully comprehend how to control ki the way Goku and company do, as seen when he takes Goku's body and can't output more than a measly 23,000 PL. Would've been interesting to see some alternate universe scenario where the Ginyus, for whatever reason, lost their loyalty to Freeza and ended up training to surpass him!)

[blain218]

The fact that SSB Goku couldn't do anything worth his jack against LSSJ Kale yet SSG Goku is able to handle LSSJ v.2 Kale is the inconsistency. Like, was there any reason to go SSB if he was supposedly holding back if he could just go SSG? There is no sensible excuse to this and I am not going to play mental gymnastics to wrap my head around it.

Wrong again lol. Its been explain numerous times already that since RoF, Goku and Vegeta frequently use the SSB form to train and master it. This was even outright suggested by Whis in the RoF arc.

FP-SSB overwhelming Hit who's only able to overcome 1/10th power of SSB. SSB Vegetto overwhelming Merged Zamasu. Completed SSB fighting on even terms against Merged Zamasu. Completed SSB Vegeta pushing Beerus to get serious, implied to be a potential GoD candidate. SSG Goku being more than a match for Toppo. Not using his god forms against 17. Goku not spamming SSG/SSB like an idiot throughout the manga ToP. Lastly, the fact that SSB had a downside which Goku and Vegeta both had to overcome to use the form efficiently. In the anime, I had no sense that SSG/SSB was any more special than other SSJ transformations.

Nerfing all of Goku and Vegeta's opponents compared to their anime versions doesn't make SSG and SSB look any more impressive, it only makes the villains look worse. The manga did a terrible job with Hit and Black as threats, SSB Vegetto fodderizing Merged Zamasu was simply a bad change made by Toyotaro, and I don't see how nerfing Toppo to SSG level makes for better writing. Its obvious like other fanboys who defend the manga, you just like seeing Goku and Vegeta dominate everyone without any regard with how it makes the other characters seem. You can't take an antagonist seriously in a battle series if he is portrayed to be so weak compared to the heroes, it kills all appeal for the character.

compared this with Z, how even with the latest forms the villains are still shown to be legit challenges. SSJ vs 100% Freeza, SSJ2 vs Super Perfect Cell, SSJ3 vs Kid Buu.

Beside multiplying a person's power by a certain number, NONE of the SSJ forms are all that special. They are just power boosters with no special traits.

Great, so as long as you're a cyborg, by having a full-time job catching poachers you can achieve the same results as you get from special training from the GoD and Angels themselves. Toriyama saying it so doesn't excuse such a poor narrative decision.

Lmao, you are assuming 17 did no serious training since the Cell games, which is a false, baseless assumption. Goku and Vegeta get stronger all the time by punching the air all day lol, how is 17 and Freeza any different? Also, Freeza, Hit and even Jiren were also never stated to have gotten any special training from Gods and Angels either yet they are also at that level. There is no in-universe reason why 17 can't become SSB level in 10 years if Freeza (who is naturally weaker) could do the same thing without help from the gods in 4 months.

Also, you forgot to realize that even lowering 17 to current SSJ3 level like in the manga would still make 17 massively stronger than all of Z scaling wise (because of Goku and Vegeta absorbing SSG into their base and all that). So it really petty to complain about 17 being SSB level.

Calling other people stupid doesn't add credible substance to your argument. You do know that the primary target audience for DBS is a shonen audience? And likely a lot of younger kids also watch it. So I suppose if they don't get it it's because they're also too stupid. Way to go man.

What kind of argument is this? Being younger doesn't mean you are dumber, that's not an excuse.

Storytelling-wise, the manga does a far better job than the anime imo. It keeps the plot concise and simple, explaining things like the timelines in a coherent manner, gives the characters interesting dynamics like the strained relationship between Zamasu and Black, and doesn't primarily rely on fanservice to entertain its audience. You are being presumptuous to say that Jiren has the same personality as that in the anime. One will not kill at any cost, the other tries to kill Goku's friends just because of some petty reason. It's clear that character personalities can and do diverge between the two medium, as with Black, Toppo, and Kale.

This is so completely false. The storytelling in the manga is generally rushed in every arc. The timeline explain in the manga is exactly the same as the anime so what the hell are you complaining about? With the exceptions of Kale and Jiren, virtually everyone has less character development in the manga compared to the anime, especially the supporting cast. The way Toyotaro wrote Goku Black in the manga is particularly horrible. He has none of the claim charisma nor dominance that his anime counterpart had, in the manga he's just a generic brute who loses his shit anytime he gets pushed. Also, your complaint about fan-service is extremely hypocritical because the Super manga is filled with constant fanservice. I've lost count the numerous copied scenes and blatant references to the original manga found in the Super manga. You can make a whole blog post listing them all lmao.

Also, we have yet to reach Goku vs Jiren in the manga, so you have no guarantee that Jiren won't do the same thing.

Did you not read/watch the original Dragon Ball? He literally retired himself once he realized he was no match for Tien. He entrusted the task of defeating the evil King Piccolo to his students because he couldn't get the job done himself. Hell he didn't even participate in the 23rd Budokai tournament because he knew he'd be no match for his students. Where was Roshi in Namek? When the Cell Games started? Where was he when the Z fighters were trying to prevent Buu's resurrection? Maybe I don't care for Roshi much, but even the amount of spotlight he received relative to more relevant characters like Krillin and Tien was baffling. The fact that he was made to look better than his students goes against the original message in DB. His inclusion was just pure fanservice and not well-placed.

They never said a thing about Roshi retiring in early DB. They never said a thing about Roshi ever having stopped training. In fact, Roshi actually offered to compete in the Cell Games but was turned down. And even if he did retire, people come in and out of retirement all the time.

GT follows the same themes as DBZ, often a clash between an evil force vs. good. It uses lore from its previous shows such as the history between the Tsufurijins and Saiyans, innate power of the Oozaru transformation, and consequences of overusing the Dragon Balls. It had potential but it flanked. Super gets its fuel from fan-driven nostalgia and overused shonen tropes. The atmosphere of GT also felt more tense and difficult. I felt more sadness seeing Gohan, Goten, and Trunks follow Vegeta to his death match against Syn Shenron than I did at Vegeta's last stand against Toppo.

The entire Dragonball franchise is filled with the Shonen tropes that you are complaining about. In fact, Dragonball (along with Fist of the North Star, Saint Seiya and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure) are considered the very origin of those tropes we see throughout Shonen anime/manga. You just made another hypocritical argument lmao.
The clash between good vs evil is extremely generic and can be applied to millions of other fiction so that's not a good argument either.

A major reason why the franchise died after GT was because GT did absolutely nothing to enrich and expand the lore of the series (despite having some good ideas though). Also, GT had many failed attempts at fanservice and forced callbacks to the early days like turning Goku into a kid again. Super on the hand has sparked new life in the franchise both in-universe and out, due to not only its success but also how each new arc expanded the lore of Dragonball.

Vegeta vs Toppo wasn't even mean't to make you sad in the first place so you just made a false analogy.

You throw around the word 'objective' like your argument is an end-all be-all. It's not and it doesn't contribute to anything except making you look arrogant and inflated. Criteria to what makes a show good aren't set in stone, nor are they wholly objective. All of our opinions are inherently subjective, which is why there's always discussion. Giving spotlight to long-time irrelevant characters or adding more lore like you claim does not inherently make a show better, especially the narrative or plot of the series.

Appeal to Subjectivity fallacy. When you deny the existence of objective standards of what makes a good work of fiction (regardless of genre of medium) you forfeit any chance of your views being taken seriously.

[HeroR]

I just want to get this off my chest since a lot of people are showcasing it as an example of Super being good, or something Super did well in.

Episode 105 is awful.

Its an episode, with literally no real redeeming elements to it. At all.

Its woefully abysmal in every single department. Animation, storyboard, art direction, direction, script, it has nothing going for it in any of them.

In terms of animation, its one of the most lifeless and static episodes of the entire tournament.

In terms of storyboarding, the episode is and action are flatter than a pancake, which is magnified by the terrible art direction.

The general direction doesn't help either, with none of the narrative beats landing in the least due to the horrid music placement that serves like white noise in the background, instead of enhancing it and horrible transitions that make the episode feel choppy in terms of pacing. All attempts to create atmosphere are squashed not only by the aforementioned art direction, but also by the really garrish and poorly implemented colour choices.

It isn't even like the narrative aspect of the episode is any good. We start off the episode in a really dull and cringy fight with a really poor rape joke, have another dull battle against one of the ugliest character designs introduced in the franchise, followed by a poor, extended battle with an opponent sporting another of the ugliest character designs in the franchise, and end the episode on an artificial death fake out scene. That's not even mentioning how the episode feels completely at odds with a lot of the themes and idea's related to Roshi's character that were established in the recruitment arc. The only real "positive" about the narrative of the episode, is that it sort of tries to justify Roshi being there. That's really it.

All these things come together to form a completely lifeless husk of an episode that has no emotional impact what so ever. I wouldn't say its the worst episode of the tournament(thanks 100), buts its definitely up there.

Roshi did get a genuinely fantastic episode in 107, but 105, just isn't it.

So can people please stop using it as an example of a good episode, because it really isn't at all. You might enjoy it the first time you watched it because Roshi was being unexpectedly cool, but once the initial cool factor is out of your system it loses the only I don't think there is very much to come back to since it doesn't hold up under any kind of scrutiny. So please for the love of God, don't mention it when talking about how good Super is, it only really serves to hurt your point.

Sorry for going off topic, but I just feel extremely strongly about this subject matter in particular.

I love you Jazz, but I couldn’t disagree more. I loved 105 and it’s one of my favorite epsoides in the franchise and it deserves the praise it got. And have seen it more than once.

You’re free to hate it, but this entire post reads as a giant ‘stop liking what I don’t like’.