Kaioken Blue vs Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. Which is Better?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I just can't agree with the arguments in favour of Complete SSB. There's just something....."off" about the whole idea to me.

It's probably just personal preference muddying the waters, but there's a real lack of spectacle and thematic purpose for the concept for me, at least in comparison to SSB/KK.

SSB/KK is a clear and easy way to quickly power Goku up for the purposes of the narrative at hand, and is something unique to him that only he can do. I'm not one much for power gaps, so Vegeta being left behind due to this doesn't bother me much; I've never been a fan of Vegeta literally being Goku's rival in power, only the characterization behind this rivalry.

Theatrical effect shouldn't be the basis to determine quality of concepts, thats the general issue I personally have with people that like the anime, because they generally base their preferences solely on that, even if that is initially all the anime has to offer. Not to mention Kaioken is what breaks their rivalry entirely. Goku & Vegeta being equals in power and only differing in skill or technique IS what a realistically balanced rivalry should be. Comparable characters, not one-sided superior/inferior parallels. It only makes Vegeta look like the useless version of Goku. Spectacle is brief, comparisons last forever within the depth of the sources.

That's just the thing.

I see no substance in Complete SSB that Kaioken/Blue doesn't have, nor even regular SSB. Like, what can Complete SSB do that regular SSB can't? It has nothing unique that I can see value in, doesn't really mesh with the concept of SSB I've taken a liking too, and just doesn't have any flair or charm to it.

This is actually a problem I have with Toyotaro in general. There's just hardly any personality, heart, and flamboyant charm to the way in which he tells the DBS story compared to the anime. Does the anime play up the fanservice up a bit much at times? Sure. But its expanded medium and need to fill in the gaps for a serialized format has also allowed its writers and animators to add really unique and different twists that help solidify the story being told, and in a way that stays true to what we love about the franchise.

Complete SSB is a small part of the larger issue. It's just.... there. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't even have the spectacle and charm that the anime has to make up for such a shortcoming; it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

[Exline]

I just can't agree with the arguments in favour of Complete SSB. There's just something....."off" about the whole idea to me.

It's probably just personal preference muddying the waters, but there's a real lack of spectacle and thematic purpose for the concept for me, at least in comparison to SSB/KK.

SSB/KK is a clear and easy way to quickly power Goku up for the purposes of the narrative at hand, and is something unique to him that only he can do. I'm not one much for power gaps, so Vegeta being left behind due to this doesn't bother me much; I've never been a fan of Vegeta literally being Goku's rival in power, only the characterization behind this rivalry.

Theatrical effect shouldn't be the basis to determine quality of concepts, thats the general issue I personally have with people that like the anime, because they generally base their preferences solely on that, even if that is initially all the anime has to offer. Not to mention Kaioken is what breaks their rivalry entirely. Goku & Vegeta being equals in power and only differing in skill or technique IS what a realistically balanced rivalry should be. Comparable characters, not one-sided superior/inferior parallels. It only makes Vegeta look like the useless version of Goku. Spectacle is brief, comparisons last forever within the depth of the sources.

That's just the thing.

I see no substance in Complete SSB that Kaioken/Blue doesn't have, nor even regular SSB. Like, what can Complete SSB do that regular SSB can't? It has nothing unique that I can see value in, doesn't really mesh with the concept of SSB I've taken a liking too, and just doesn't have any flair or charm to it.

This is actually a problem I have with Toyotaro in general. There's just hardly any personality, heart, and flamboyant charm to the way in which he tells the DBS story compared to the anime. Does the anime play up the fanservice up a bit much at times? Sure. But its expanded medium and need to fill in the gaps for a serialized format has also allowed its writers and animators to add really unique and different twists that help solidify the story being told, and in a way that stays true to what we love about the franchise.

Complete SSB is a small part of the larger issue. It's just.... there. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't even have the spectacle and charm that the anime has to make up for such a shortcoming; it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

I gotta say you do have a point. It actually didn't accomplish much beyond being on par with Zamasu only to lose afterwards after using it far too long.

I agree that Toyotaro does indeed lack that charm when compared to the anime. His panelling and storyboarding can be boring at times. Like Toyotaro having Krillin and Tenshinhan eliminated with a single punch. Such a boring way to display an elimination. He lacks the ability to make some fights memorable.

I will say that he has been improving, but sometimes he makes a couple awkward scenes imo.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I just can't agree with the arguments in favour of Complete SSB. There's just something....."off" about the whole idea to me.

It's probably just personal preference muddying the waters, but there's a real lack of spectacle and thematic purpose for the concept for me, at least in comparison to SSB/KK.

SSB/KK is a clear and easy way to quickly power Goku up for the purposes of the narrative at hand, and is something unique to him that only he can do. I'm not one much for power gaps, so Vegeta being left behind due to this doesn't bother me much; I've never been a fan of Vegeta literally being Goku's rival in power, only the characterization behind this rivalry.

Theatrical effect shouldn't be the basis to determine quality of concepts, thats the general issue I personally have with people that like the anime, because they generally base their preferences solely on that, even if that is initially all the anime has to offer. Not to mention Kaioken is what breaks their rivalry entirely. Goku & Vegeta being equals in power and only differing in skill or technique IS what a realistically balanced rivalry should be. Comparable characters, not one-sided superior/inferior parallels. It only makes Vegeta look like the useless version of Goku. Spectacle is brief, comparisons last forever within the depth of the sources.

That's just the thing.

I see no substance in Complete SSB that Kaioken/Blue doesn't have, nor even regular SSB. Like, what can Complete SSB do that regular SSB can't? It has nothing unique that I can see value in, doesn't really mesh with the concept of SSB I've taken a liking too, and just doesn't have any flair or charm to it.

This is actually a problem I have with Toyotaro in general. There's just hardly any personality, heart, and flamboyant charm to the way in which he tells the DBS story compared to the anime. Does the anime play up the fanservice up a bit much at times? Sure. But its expanded medium and need to fill in the gaps for a serialized format has also allowed its writers and animators to add really unique and different twists that help solidify the story being told, and in a way that stays true to what we love about the franchise.

Complete SSB is a small part of the larger issue. It's just.... there. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't even have the spectacle and charm that the anime has to make up for such a shortcoming; it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

But why should the SSB complete should have different substances compared to the regular SSB? The name itself already suggests that it is only an improvement of transformation.

The CSSB gives Goku and Vegeta a great power up over the regular SSB, and is able to fight much longer in this transformation without a large energy expenditure.
Goku with this transformation also proved to be able to use the Hakai, technique of the Hakaishins.

SSB Kaioken is cool, but makes the regular SSB seem weak and useless, and breaks the power scale. It created an unnecessary power difference between Goku and Vegeta (the last one who only managed to close that gap 3 sagas later, which makes no sense considering he would never have been behind Goku for so long without doing anything).

How does any of that make sense

there were allusions to vegeta doing his own thing he outright says he will surpass jiren in his own way and that goku can keep his ultra instinct for himself, right before he uses his final flash.

And I guess then that God was useless cause it didnt beat beerus, blue kaioken was useless because it didnt beat hit, anger was useless cause it didnt beat zamasu, 3 was useless since it didnt beat buu and of course, goku didnt beat freeza so his super saiyan was useless as well.

And what I asked, getting back to my point, is if it is stronger than mastered or not

The same final flash that happened in the episode before he transforms? That "allusion" happened way too late in the story.

I said it amounted to nothing, not neccesarily that it's useless. It barely does a good job of leaving an impression is what I'm trying to imply.

And lastly, if you meant which is stronger in your question, you didn;t make that clear or enough. You simply said "Mastered or Shinka?" making me assume you were asking which is better.

In DBS, most transformations did not have any 'allusion' before they were presented.

And with that, I mean SSB Kaioken, SSJ Rosé and SSJ Rage.

With SSB Evolution, at least we had EP 122 suggesting that Vegeta would follow a different path from Goku and we knew before EP 123 was released that he would get a new transformation, which the ending revealed as well.

[Marlowe89]

it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

This critique makes absolutely no sense to me. There's no such distinction between "literal" and "narrative" rivals in the story -- the characters are either capable of rivalling each other or they're not, and in the context of Dragon Ball as well as Goku's entire relationship with Vegeta, strength is obviously going to be a major factor in that dynamic. Kaioken Blue seriously undermines the whole thing as it was initially portrayed in Super, despite the anime itself presenting their rivalry as a theme we're supposed to take seriously. Actually, it precedes the serialization in general; the dialogue has promoted and foreshadowed a more equal standing between the two since Resurrection F.

I really do hate to turn this discussion into yet another anime vs. manga debate, especially since I genuinely believe both versions have their own merits and advantages, but the anime is the only medium that's truly "more of the same" in that regard because the idea of Goku always being one step ahead of Vegeta was such a huge ongoing trend in Z. That's not just less nuanced, it's also less fresh and far more repetitive in nature than Toriyama's modern take on these characters first established in the previous movie.

I agree that Toyotaro does indeed lack that charm when compared to the anime.

I actually think it's exactly the opposite, not that there's any way of quantifying things like "charm" or "flair" in the first place since they're wholly subjective terms with no real critical meaning on their own.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

That's just the thing. I see no substance in Complete SSB that Kaioken/Blue doesn't have, nor even regular SSB. Like, what can Complete SSB do that regular SSB can't? It has nothing unique that I can see value in, doesn't really mesh with the concept of SSB I've taken a liking too, and just doesn't have any flair or charm to it.

Thats like asking what FPSS is over what the Raw SS form was. It was just about control. Maybe the issue is just that MSSB didn't really emphasize its advantages as clearly as MSSB. All the while they never used it in a serious battle yet apart from its debut. For all it might be, it could just end up being no different in the end, but thats only because the difference isn't as big from when they couldn't control SS to when they could wear SS naturally and use at will. Then again, what did Ultimate Gohan really do? We only know its significantly stronger than his adult SS form because it looks completely different and was shown to make him fight better. MSSB has yet to show this.

This is actually a problem I have with Toyotaro in general. There's just hardly any personality, heart, and flamboyant charm to the way in which he tells the DBS story compared to the anime. Does the anime play up the fanservice up a bit much at times? Sure. But its expanded medium and need to fill in the gaps for a serialized format has also allowed its writers and animators to add really unique and different twists that help solidify the story being told, and in a way that stays true to what we love about the franchise.

Thats a bit of a general statement. Super has a lot of unnecessary filler-like scenes as well.

Complete SSB is a small part of the larger issue. It's just.... there. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't even have the spectacle and charm that the anime has to make up for such a shortcoming; it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

You're not being clear with what charm you're looking for regarding the form though. All SSBKK is, to it is flash if spectacle is what you want but that isn't developmental depth.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For me, Kaioken-Blue represents what makes the anime the superior product to the manga.

It brings back an old idea, puts some new spins on it to fit the new material, and does so with flair and pizzazz. There's a sense of nostalgia and thought put into how it works into the greater narrative, as well as what it means to the characters themselves. I don't want Vegeta to always catch up to Goku; I want him to work with being behind and grow further as a character in spite of this gap.

The contrast between the intensity of the red Kaioken and the calm of the blue Super Saiyan form creates this really neat idea of balancing immense power with stability, and it fits with Goku's character as a whole; he's intense in battle, yet carefree in life.

[Bergamo]

For me, Kaioken-Blue represents what makes the anime the superior product to the manga.

It brings back an old idea, puts some new spins on it to fit the new material, and does so with flair and pizzazz. There's a sense of nostalgia and thought put into how it works into the greater narrative, as well as what it means to the characters themselves. I don't want Vegeta to always catch up to Goku; I want him to work with being behind and grow further as a character in spite of this gap.

The contrast between the intensity of the red Kaioken and the calm of the blue Super Saiyan form creates this really neat idea of balancing immense power with stability, and it fits with Goku's character as a whole; he's intense in battle, yet carefree in life.

What is this greater narrative you speak of? There isn't a logic to the anime's transformations, and if Vegeta was supposed to be a non-compettitive ally to Goku, then why does he surpass Goku in the Black arc and then get his own transformation less than 10 episodes before the end of the Super. You are extrapolating too much meaning from a nostalgia pander.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For me, Kaioken-Blue represents what makes the anime the superior product to the manga.

It brings back an old idea, puts some new spins on it to fit the new material, and does so with flair and pizzazz. There's a sense of nostalgia and thought put into how it works into the greater narrative, as well as what it means to the characters themselves. I don't want Vegeta to always catch up to Goku; I want him to work with being behind and grow further as a character in spite of this gap.

The contrast between the intensity of the red Kaioken and the calm of the blue Super Saiyan form creates this really neat idea of balancing immense power with stability, and it fits with Goku's character as a whole; he's intense in battle, yet carefree in life.

What is this greater narrative you speak of? There isn't a logic to the anime's transformations, and if Vegeta was supposed to be a non-compettitive ally to Goku, then why does he surpass Goku in the Black arc and then get his own transformation less than 10 episodes before the end of the Super. You are extrapolating too much meaning from a nostalgia pander.

And I think people are extrapolating more long-term quality from the manga than I think it deserves.

At the end of the day, this is all up to our own opinions.

People can feel free to disagree with me, just as I can with them.

Like Jiren's strength, I prefer Kaioken-Blue to Complete SSB, plain and simple.

[Exline]

For me, Kaioken-Blue represents what makes the anime the superior product to the manga.

It brings back an old idea, puts some new spins on it to fit the new material, and does so with flair and pizzazz. There's a sense of nostalgia and thought put into how it works into the greater narrative, as well as what it means to the characters themselves. I don't want Vegeta to always catch up to Goku; I want him to work with being behind and grow further as a character in spite of this gap.

The contrast between the intensity of the red Kaioken and the calm of the blue Super Saiyan form creates this really neat idea of balancing immense power with stability, and it fits with Goku's character as a whole; he's intense in battle, yet carefree in life.

What is this greater narrative you speak of? There isn't a logic to the anime's transformations, and if Vegeta was supposed to be a non-compettitive ally to Goku, then why does he surpass Goku in the Black arc and then get his own transformation less than 10 episodes before the end of the Super. You are extrapolating too much meaning from a nostalgia pander.

Well said Bergamo.

I think he's trying to explain that Toyotaro doesn't exactly excel much in expressing these scenes compared to the anime. Kaioken's reveal felt really intense and exciting whilst CSSB's Reveal wasn't as much of a spectacle. I do agree that he is looking way too deep into the Kaioken transformation, but I feel this is what PerhapsTheOtherOne is probably trying to explain. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Toyotaro sometimes lacks the ability to properly project surprise, intensity, excitement, fear, and other emotions in his panels that Toriyama and Toei sometimes could fulfill. If you were reading Chapter 24 when Goku first goes CSSB, there is little to no emotion conveyed in it's introduction. All Toyotaro gives us is Goku standing before Zamasu and focusing on keeping his energy inside of his body. It's pretty boring to watch. Unlike what we've seen done with Super Saiyan with the ground shaking and lightning appearing. Or with Cell transforming to Perfect Cell where he is covered in blinding lightand a forcefield, keeping us from seeing what his transformation will be. I'm not trying to imply that their should be a physical change to the characters appearance, but trying to explain how these scenarios portray how intense these transformations are.

Toyotaro did well with Rose and Vegito but imo failed with introducing CSSB in a memorable way.

(I'm for CSSB btw, just trying to somewhat defend PerhapsTheOtherOne.)

[EGonzo]

That's just the thing.

I see no substance in Complete SSB that Kaioken/Blue doesn't have, nor even regular SSB. Like, what can Complete SSB do that regular SSB can't? It has nothing unique that I can see value in, doesn't really mesh with the concept of SSB I've taken a liking too, and just doesn't have any flair or charm to it.

This is actually a problem I have with Toyotaro in general. There's just hardly any personality, heart, and flamboyant charm to the way in which he tells the DBS story compared to the anime. Does the anime play up the fanservice up a bit much at times? Sure. But its expanded medium and need to fill in the gaps for a serialized format has also allowed its writers and animators to add really unique and different twists that help solidify the story being told, and in a way that stays true to what we love about the franchise.

Complete SSB is a small part of the larger issue. It's just.... there. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't even have the spectacle and charm that the anime has to make up for such a shortcoming; it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

I've always had a problem with Toyo's take on DBS, but I could never put it into words. Thanks for this comment. Manga might be more logical and whatever people say about power levels, but it's so unmemorable. There really isn't anything that stands out in the manga, there's no "moments" like in the original manga or even some anime episodes.

[Marlowe89]

If you were reading Chapter 24 when Goku first goes CSSB, there is little to no emotion conveyed in it's introduction.

Fused Zamasu's reaction to that ("You were merely trying to buy some time after all!") indicates that it was completely intentional on Toyotaro's part though. Similarly to how Black scoffed at the notion of Vegeta going down a form, the idea is to represent a subversion of the reader's expectations -- like Zamasu, you're initially reeled in by your curiosity of that trump card but it doesn't turn out to be nearly as grandiose as you pictured it, instead carrying much of its impact through its actions, mechanics, and overall role in the plot. That's incredibly reminiscent of Toriyama's own often-used approach in the original Dragon Ball manga as well as his other content.

On the other hand, Kaioken Blue plays its introduction straight and opts for a flashy entrance. That's not necessarily an inferior approach, and it's really up to personal preference, but the manga's method correlates much more with the spirit of the original series for me.

[Exline]

If you were reading Chapter 24 when Goku first goes CSSB, there is little to no emotion conveyed in it's introduction.

Fused Zamasu's reaction to that ("You were merely trying to buy some time after all!") indicates that it was completely intentional on Toyotaro's part though. Similarly to how Black freaked out at the notion of Vegeta going down a form, the idea is to represent a subversion of the reader's expectations -- like Zamasu, you're initially reeled in by your curiosity of that trump card but it doesn't turn out to be nearly as grandiose as you pictured it, instead carrying much of its impact through its actions, mechanics, and overall role in the plot. That's incredibly reminiscent of Toriyama's own approach to the original Dragon Ball manga as well as his other content.

On the other hand, Kaioken Blue plays its introduction straight and opts for a flashy entrance. That's not necessarily an inferior approach, and it's really up to personal preference, but the manga's method correlates much more with the spirit of the original series for me.

What was the point of that subversion if it didn't lead to much of a surprise after CSSB's reveal? Goku should have at least landed an unexpected attack on him in his first few moments of transformation. Sure it was great to see Goku take on a Potara Fusion by himself, but Toyotaro did not really make much of an effort to make CSSB look incredible at all. The fight started off too even. It's far more grounded compared to the anime, but it's a bit boring. Not every fight needs to be one-sided, but sometimes a fight needs to dwindle between one-sided and evenly matched to make us believe these characters are both capable and incapable of winning the battle. It makes us question who will win and who won't better than just a simply even match with no character having an upper hand over the other at any point of the fight.

I feel it definitely would've left more of an impact if CSSB Goku had done more things worthy of remembering besides his Hakai Attack. That's about the only thing I can recall from CSSB Goku vs Merged Zamasu. Toyotaro's story-boarding is sometimes lackluster compared to the very few professional and experienced writers the anime has at their disposal. Most of Toyotaro's fights are just punches and jabs and ki blasts, a typical DBZ fight. His fights occassionally lack creativity and energy that most mangakas can convey.

I'm not against Toyotaro, I enjoy the manga much more than the anime, but I think his weak story boarding is noticeable throughout that and the U6 Arc. He has definitely improved it based on what he has shown us in these last few chapters.

[Marlowe89]

Goku should have at least landed an unexpected attack on him in his first few moments of transformation.

I mean, he did. Right after the transformation, there's a short exchange of punches between the two followed by Goku contorting Zamasu's face with a heavy blow. The really big panels (Goku's Hakai technique) tend to be the most memorable, but I don't think that reflects on Toyotaro's art.

I don't really agree with the notion that he didn't make it "look incredible" or that there was a lack of storyboarding involved in the form's usage. There's a ton of dynamic angles and poses illustrated throughout the whole fight, especially in Chapter 25, which is impressive considering that the entire point was to show that neither character could overwhelm the other; a visual that a lot of manga artists struggle with. A panel doesn't need to portray something one-sided to look impactful.

[Rebel Instinct]

I see no substance in Complete SSB that Kaioken/Blue doesn't have, nor even regular SSB. Like, what can Complete SSB do that regular SSB can't? It has nothing unique that I can see value in, doesn't really mesh with the concept of SSB I've taken a liking too, and just doesn't have any flair or charm to it.

What can Completed SSB do that regular SSB can't? Well, Hakai for one. It also gives the user a power boost comparable to a Potara fusion. It even greatly expands on the concept of SSB and the necessity of proper ki control. Here's a better question, what can Blue Kaio-ken do that regular SSB can't? It's literally just a power multiplier for SSB. Full stop. It doesn't let Goku do anything of particular note. No new moves or abilities, it's just Blue with a flat power increase. It has a neat visual effect, but that's all it really has going for it. If you're all about spectacle over substance, I guess I can see the appeal. At least you admit that Completed SSB doesn't mesh with the concept of SSB that you personally prefer. I think it meshes well with the manga's take on SSB and I feel like Blue Kaio-ken is the one that actually clashes with the anime's later interpretation of SSB being a stamina intensive form. Stacking a physically straining technique on top of a stamina draining form doesn't really make that much sense to me.

This is actually a problem I have with Toyotaro in general. There's just hardly any personality, heart, and flamboyant charm to the way in which he tells the DBS story compared to the anime. Does the anime play up the fanservice up a bit much at times? Sure. But its expanded medium and need to fill in the gaps for a serialized format has also allowed its writers and animators to add really unique and different twists that help solidify the story being told, and in a way that stays true to what we love about the franchise.

I see plenty of personality, heart and charm in Toyotaro's work (particularly the humor), so that's a purely subjective issue. Which is fine by the way. My point is that it's not really an objective flaw and it's more of a personal thing. Aside from that, the manga has lots of its own unique twists and turns that give it its own flair - like giving characters new moves and transformations that the anime didn't and changing the rules for various abilities/plot devices. I have to ask though, what style does the anime adhere to that the manga doesn't? Also, who is "we" and what aspects of the series does this "we" collectively love about Dragon Ball? Can you expand on this?

Complete SSB is a small part of the larger issue. It's just.... there. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't even have the spectacle and charm that the anime has to make up for such a shortcoming; it also doesn't really make the dynamic between Goku and Vegeta any better or nuanced, just more of the same of the two being literal rivals rather than narrative ones.

Completed SSB does cap off a milestone in the development of Goku and Vegeta's godly training under Whis and it grants Goku (and possibly even Vegeta) the ability to use Hakai. That's quite a game changer going forward. What did Blue Kaio-ken accomplish that Completed SSB didn't? Blue Kaio-ken didn't beat any opponent it was used on either, so that's kind of a moot point.

Completed SSB absolutely adds more nuance to Goku and Vegeta's rivalry in the manga. I'd even venture to say objectively so. SSB had a major drawback that needed to be overcome and Vegeta is the first to display a unique and creative solution to circumventing that drawback. It was actually a technique totally unlike anything we had seen before in the entire franchise up until that point and gave Vegeta something unique to call his own. Then Goku shows his method of overcoming the drawback in his own way with Completed SSB and outdoes Vegeta once again. After seeing the efficiency of Goku's method, Vegeta adopts this method too through intense training and closes the gap between he and Goku again.

There are multiple layers involved in their rivalry surrounding the concept of Completed SSB. There's literally no denying it. Whether or not it does anything for you is another matter entirely and comes down to individual preference. It seems like you don't care if Goku and Vegeta maintain an actual tangible rivalry with one another and actually seem to prefer Vegeta staying permanently behind. We're on two very different wavelengths on this one, since I'd prefer their rivalry actually physically exist and I don't see any downside to having Goku and Vegeta be "literal" rivals. I get the idea of Vegeta "chasing the impossible dream" so to speak, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of physical back and forth competition every now and then for the rivalry to have any real impact.

It's probably just personal preference muddying the waters

i think this part is exactly the case here regarding Completed/Kaoi-ken. I wouldn't dream of undermining a person's personal preferences, but a lot of the criticisms that you brought up against Completed SSB are either entirely subjective or, in some cases, actually inaccurate. You don't have to like it or anything, but Completed SSB does have a lot more merit to it than you're giving it credit for.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Like I said, I can't bring myself to agree with these arguments brought up in favour of it.

Where's the martial arts philosophy? Where's the visual clues to showcase how different it is? Where's the character and soul?

With Kaioken/Blue, we have a dichotomy of intensity and calm that fits perfectly with the character, a way to signify a clear increase in power that's unique to Goku, and a good way of establishing just why Vegeta will always be behind Goku.

I don't care that it didn't get a win, or that it creates a gulf. Because that's not why I like DB. I like DB for the way in which it showcases how its characters have progressed, and what the events of the narrative will do for them. This is why I like the anime so much more. We see our favourite characters change and grow, becoming better people and learning to deal with their flaws and become stronger for it.

You don't get to see stuff like Goku having a serious spar with Krillin to showcase why they're best friends in the manga, nor do you get Gohan's journey to find his inner warrior again after becoming a family man; there are many other examples that the anime has that the manga doesn't.

With Kaioken/Blue, the writers went to the trouble of establishing it as a "Goku thing", a by-product of his natural talent, martial arts experience, and unique background that has seen him combine what he's learned from a multitude of masters; Kaioken/Blue brought all of this training together full circle, combining King Kai's teachings with that of Whis for the strongest Goku has ever been up until Ultra Instinct.

And Vegeta learning to deal with this fact and eventually not caring about the gap it creates when it becomes clear that he has other priorities like his loved ones and being strong enough to protect them no matter what.

[Exline]

I think it meshes well with the manga's take on SSB and I feel like Blue Kaio-ken is the one that actually clashes with the anime's later interpretation of SSB being a stamina intensive form. Stacking a physically straining technique on top of a stamina draining form doesn't really make that much sense to me.

Completed SSB does cap off a milestone in the development of Goku and Vegeta's godly training under Whis and it grants Goku (and possibly even Vegeta) the ability to use Hakai. That's quite a game changer going forward. What did Blue Kaio-ken accomplish that Completed SSB didn't? Blue Kaio-ken didn't beat any opponent it was used on either, so that's kind of a moot point.

I see plenty of personality, heart and charm in Toyotaro's work (particularly the humor), so that's a purely subjective issue. Which is fine by the way. My point is that it's not really an objective flaw and it's more of a personal thing. Aside from that, the manga has lots of its own unique twists and turns that give it its own flair - like giving characters new moves and transformations that the anime didn't and changing the rules for various abilities/plot devices. I have to ask though, what style does the anime adhere to that the manga doesn't? Also, who is "we" and what aspects of the series does this "we" collectively love about Dragon Ball? Can you expand on this?

Completed SSB absolutely adds more nuance to Goku and Vegeta's rivalry in the manga. I'd even venture to say objectively so. SSB had a major drawback that needed to be overcome and Vegeta is the first to display a unique and creative solution to circumventing that drawback. It was actually a technique totally unlike anything we had seen before in the entire franchise up until that point and gave Vegeta something unique to call his own. Then Goku shows his method of overcoming the drawback in his own way with Completed SSB and outdoes Vegeta once again. After seeing the efficiency of Goku's method, Vegeta adopts this method too through intense training and closes the gap between he and Goku again.

i think this part is exactly the case here regarding Completed/Kaoi-ken. I wouldn't dream of undermining a person's personal preferences, but a lot of the criticisms that you brought up against Completed SSB are either entirely subjective or, in some cases, actually inaccurate. You don't have to like it or anything, but Completed SSB does have a lot more merit to it than you're giving it credit for.

I agree with all your points Rebel Instinct. You're a great defense when it comes to supporting the manga adaptation.

I enjoy Toyotaro's humor as well. Team U6 appearing with a crying Magetta because Cauifla insulted him was incredibly funny. As well as Champa calling out Beerus once Krillin was knocked out, only to have Dr. Rota appear before him afterwards immediately.

But is it really just me where I feel some panels do feel a bit flat? Right? Especially fights such as SSG Goku vs. Beerus and Frost vs. Goku/Vegeta. Those fights lack that Dragon Ball feel and are incredibly boring to me. I also feel Toyotaro spends too many panels on just punches and kicks, small attacks that lack such ferocity compared to Toriyama's original manga.

I may be wrong for constantly wanting Toyotaro to make the manga more like Toriyama's.

Like I said, I can't bring myself to agree with these arguments brought up in favour of it.

Where's the martial arts philosophy? Where's the visual clues to showcase how different it is? Where's the character and soul?

With Kaioken/Blue, we have a dichotomy of intensity and calm that fits perfectly with the character, a way to signify a clear increase in power that's unique to Goku, and a good way of establishing just why Vegeta will always be behind Goku.

I don't care that it didn't get a win, or that it creates a gulf. Because that's not why I like DB. I like DB for the way in which it showcases how its characters have progressed, and what the events of the narrative will do for them. This is why I like the anime so much more. We see our favourite characters change and grow, becoming better people and learning to deal with their flaws and become stronger for it.

You don't get to see stuff like Goku having a serious spar with Krillin to showcase why they're best friends in the manga, nor do you get Gohan's journey to find his inner warrior again after becoming a family man; there are many other examples that the anime has that the manga doesn't.

With Kaioken/Blue, the writers went to the trouble of establishing it as a "Goku thing", a by-product of his natural talent, martial arts experience, and unique background that has seen him combine what he's learned from a multitude of masters; Kaioken/Blue brought all of this training together full circle, combining King Kai's teachings with that of Whis for the strongest Goku has ever been up until Ultra Instinct.

And Vegeta learning to deal with this fact and eventually not caring about the gap it creates when it becomes clear that he has other priorities like his loved ones and being strong enough to protect them no matter what.

I still cannot see Kaioken Blue beyond the fact that it's more of a cash-grab marketing ploy that Toei exploited. Especially due it's overuse. I can't percieve clearly what you take away from Kaioken Blue. I think you're adding own values to it than was originally intended.

[Rebel Instinct]

I agree with all your points Rebel Instinct. You're a great defense when it comes to supporting the manga adaptation.

Shucks, I appreciate that! I think the manga is really enjoyable and does a lot of cool things that don't always get the proper credit they deserve. When I feel like an aspect of it is unfairly criticized or misrepresented, I try to speak for its merits or more accurately clarify what actually happened. I try to get my ideas across as clearly and respectfully as possible (even though it often leads me to make a gigantic rambling post) so people will really think about what I have to say and hopefully take some of it into consideration. I'm not necessarily here to change opinions, but I hope to provide a little more perspective.

I enjoy Toyotaro's humor as well. Team U6 appearing with a crying Magetta because Cauifla insulted him was incredibly funny. As well as Champa calling out Beerus once Krillin was knocked out, only to have Dr. Rota appear before him afterwards immediately.

Those were pretty great! A couple of my favorites are Goku biting his tongue from saying "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" too much, prompting Whis to shorten the name to Super Saiyan Blue and Beerus spitting beer in Shin's face when he hears that Zeno wants to talk to Goku. The way Shin thinks of Kibito when he tries to recall if he knows about a god who hates mortals is pretty great too. It's the little things that make me chuckle.

But is it really just me where I feel some panels do feel a bit flat? Right? Especially fights such as SSG Goku vs. Beerus and Frost vs. Goku/Vegeta. Those fights lack that Dragon Ball feel and are incredibly boring to me. I also feel Toyotaro spends too many panels on just punches and kicks, small attacks that lack such ferocity compared to Toriyama's original manga.

I may be wrong for constantly wanting Toyotaro to make the manga more like Toriyama's.

No, you're definitely not wrong about that. There are a few fights and scenes that are a little too flat in their execution. Toyotaro does like his flurry attacks too and sometimes they come off a little awkward. It's a quirk of his that I've gotten used to, but it's very hit or miss. Sometimes the choreography is a little bland too, but sometimes it's really good. i know he's talented, so I'm not sure why it peaks and lulls like that. He's also done some really fantastic panels and the angles he uses can be really neat. Trunks' first battle with Goku Black, for example, is a real treat with all the unique moves Trunks pulls with his sword and the part where Gowasu's body falls toward the "screen" after Black impales him and it hard-cuts to Vegeta kicking the door off of the Time Chamber just as iGowasu would've made impact is a fantastic scene transition. I wish more of his fights could be like that, but I'm not too torn up about it. He's definitely been improving in that regard over time.

[ZeroNeonix]

You're talking about the form in the manga during the Zamasu arc, right? When Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue Evolution first showed up, I originally thought it was taking that idea from the manga. Now it's like both the manga and the anime have their own versions of the level beyond Blue, and it's kinda confusing. While I haven't read the manga, as best as I can tell, Mastered Super Saiyan Blue looks exactly the same as regular Super Saiyan Blue. So that's kinda boring. Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken might look like a rocket popsicle, but it at least looks unique.

[Bergamo]

You're talking about the form in the manga during the Zamasu arc, right? When Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue Evolution first showed up, I originally thought it was taking that idea from the manga. Now it's like both the manga and the anime have their own versions of the level beyond Blue, and it's kinda confusing. While I haven't read the manga, as best as I can tell, Mastered Super Saiyan Blue looks exactly the same as regular Super Saiyan Blue. So that's kinda boring. Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken might look like a rocket popsicle, but it at least looks unique.

It's not really a new form, but a completion of the already obtained Blue form. In the anime they had stated that on the pathway to the power of the gods, Goku and Vegeta will need to learn to keep their ki contained within their body. Despite the anime developing this goal for its characters, Goku now has 2 auras, and Vegeta has an extremely thick and sparkly aura.

[Exline]

Goku should have at least landed an unexpected attack on him in his first few moments of transformation.

I mean, he did. Right after the transformation, there's a short exchange of punches between the two followed by Goku contorting Zamasu's face with a heavy blow. The really big panels (Goku's Hakai technique) tend to be the most memorable, but I don't think that reflects on Toyotaro's art.

I don't really agree with the notion that he didn't make it "look incredible" or that there was a lack of storyboarding involved in the form's usage. There's a ton of dynamic angles and poses illustrated throughout the whole fight, especially in Chapter 25, which is impressive considering that the entire point was to show that neither character could overwhelm the other; a visual that a lot of manga artists struggle with. A panel doesn't need to portray something one-sided to look impactful.

It doesn't need to, but I think it most certainly helps in leaving an impression. Why do we find villains like Piccolo Daimao, Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu amazing? I think it's because they have such great introductions that make them seem a force to be reckoned with.

Same applies to transformations such as Super Saiyan Grade 2. Pretty sure everyone remembers Vegeta's fantastic gut punch on Semi-Perfect Cell.

Sure what I'm saying may be based purely on opinion, but I believe that storyboards similar to the character and situation above is what leaves behind such memorable scenes that make us enjoy this series and the new techniques it brings forth.

In Chapter 24, CSSB's first introduction, we don't really get to see much of what this form brings that SSB already didn't. Toyotaro provides us with just punches and kicks. I agree that some of those panels have great angles and contain great choreography (Such as the moment where zamasu and goku's punches connect, where zamasu's fist goes through a portal.) but that's something we expect to see and did see after the form's introduction. Toyotaro could have the made the form's introduction seem more interesting by allowing Goku to make Zamasu be in awe of CSSB's power for only it's introduction.

It could be for the sake of the moment, like Piccolo and Android 17's fight (DB Chapter 367) . The fight ends up being evenly matched at the end of the fight in later chapters. However, this chapter begins with Piccolo getting the upperhand immediately because of 17 underestimating him. It gives Piccolo the spotlight for a while and makes us more interested in him. It would be quite boring if it begins with both of them evenly matched with neither of them getting an upperhand against each other at any point of the fight.

I'm pretty sure CSSB's introduction would be much more memorable if that chapter had better storyboarding surrounding it's introduction because it definitely could have left much more of an impact than it did. I believe this is why most people favor Kaioken Blue. When it was introduced, it broke Hit's Timeskip and left us with an impression of how powerful it truly is. Toyotaro did this well with just regular SSB. However, I feel he did not do the same with CSSB.