Kaioken Blue vs Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. Which is Better?

[Miracles]

MSSB. Can fight a fusion character head up.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I preferred MSSB because they were focusing on the form itself, and the concept of keeping their inside their bodies to then enhance their durability, and physical attacks was a good direction because they were trying to match Beerus' fighting style and why he can be as strong as he is while he can hold back so significantly. I never liked SSB Kaioken because it to me seemed to contradict the path and their training with Whis. From what the Zamasu fight in the manga shown, it looked like MSSB essentially did the same thing Kaioken does in itself anyway buffing themselves briefly. I like the concept of MSSB done that way because it is also accessible to Vegeta as well equally.

[Rebel Instinct]

I wouldn't necessarily say that either concept is inherently "better" than the other. Rather, I'd argue that it's the utilization of the forms that really counts. Back when it made its first debut, I loved the idea of Blue Kaio-ken. It was spectacular and it brought back an old technique in a creative way. It also had a solid line of reasoning for how and why it worked to boot. My gripes with Blue Kaio-ken are that I feel like the writing staff for the anime simply applied the technique inappropriately.

In retrospect, I feel that they introduced the technique too early in the series' lifespan. It raised the power ceiling too high too early on and made it so that the fights coming afterward had to be on an absurdly high level. It also introduced the conundrum of Beerus using 10% of his power against "my Bulma" Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, yet still somehow being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku x 10. The level of Kaio-ken used in its debut was waaaay too high. If anything, it should have just been the basic level of Kaio-ken (a simple 2x multiplier). Super Saiyan Blue Goku multiplied by two is still an insanely high level of power at that point in the series and would've still had the same impact. 10x just felt like overkill.

If it were up to me, I would've either saved Blue Kaio-ken for the Future Trunks arc or at least waited until then to introduce the higher multipliers. In the anime, Goku had no meaningful gains in strength during that arc, while Vegeta gained an apparently significant amount of power from his training in the Time Chamber. If introduced at that point in the series, the gulf in power created between Goku and Vegeta would have felt natural. Instead of a massive gap being created early on and lasting for an extended period of time, the iconic rivalry the two shared would have been more organic and believable. As it stands, Goku had dramatically eclipsed Vegeta in power during the Universe 6 tournament and the illusion of any sort of rivalry between them was gone until near the end of the Tournament of Power.

Completed Super Saiyan Blue is also a very solid concept that, in a vacuum, is no better or worse than Blue Kaio-ken. The thing that makes me personally prefer Completed Super Saiyan Blue was touched on already by @Zephyr. The idea of Super Saiyan Blue being a form that took time to fully master is a great idea. It gives the series a sense of measured progression and gives the protagonists something to continually work toward. This avoids the problem of Super Saiyan Blue losing its luster and feeling weaker than it reasonably should. Needing to use the form sparingly also keeps it from being overused and risking fans becoming bored of the form through overexposure. Having Goku (and later Vegeta) complete the form after a few arcs of training and ingenuity makes the sense of character growth feel palpable. It's a similar sense of progression that was felt throughout the various arcs of Z. It also has the added bonus of keeping the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta feeling natural since Vegeta developed his own unique method of overcoming Blues' drawback and later learned to use the same method as Goku to bridge the gap between them in a reasonable span of time.

[majinwarman]

I like the Mastered Super Saiyan Blue form more but I still enjoy seeing Kaioken Blue.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I guess I'm in the minority, though I figured that given how folks around here tend to be.

I don't know, SSB/KK just has this charm to it that makes me appreciate it more than Complete SSB in the manga. For me, anyways, Complete SSB puts Resurrection of F in a weird place, as Golden Freeza was the one to possess the whole "Ki leaking" problem that ultimately culminated in his defeat.

Kaio-ken/Blue, though? It expanded on what we learned about the SSB form in a manner that allowed Goku to put a unique spin on it that Vegeta himself couldn't replicate due to his lack of knowledge on how to use Kaio-ken himself; I always liked how Goku got creative like that.

[Bergamo]

I guess I'm in the minority, though I figured that given how folks around here tend to be.

I don't know, SSB/KK just has this charm to it that makes me appreciate it more than Complete SSB in the manga. For me, anyways, Complete SSB puts Resurrection of F in a weird place, as Golden Freeza was the one to possess the whole "Ki leaking" problem that ultimately culminated in his defeat.

Kaio-ken/Blue, though? It expanded on what we learned about the SSB form in a manner that allowed Goku to put a unique spin on it that Vegeta himself couldn't replicate due to his lack of knowledge on how to use Kaio-ken himself; I always liked how Goku got creative like that.

Firstly, the movies differ slightly from the continuity of Super, and in the Super Manga continuity Blue being more efficient than Golden Frieza was never stated. Secondly, I think that Kaioken being a Goku-exclusive ability makes his rivalry with Vegeta non-competitive, which isn't very endearing to me.

[Zephyr]

It's possible for both Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Freeza to have drawbacks. And, if we're to assume they both do, remember: Goku and Vegeta didn't go out and pick a fight with a group they have a history of losing against as soon as they reached a new form. Freeza, on the other hand, did rush to pick a fight as soon as he got stronger, because he was too eager to get his revenge. Which is largely what they were giving him shit for in the film.

[Bergamo]

It's possible for both Super Saiyan Blue and Golden Freeza to have drawbacks. And, if we're to assume they both do, remember: Goku and Vegeta didn't go out and pick a fight with a group they have a history of losing against as soon as they reached a new form. Freeza, on the other hand, did rush to pick a fight as soon as he got stronger, because he was too eager to get his revenge. Which is largely what they were giving him shit for in the film.

I'm not saying that the two necessarily contradict eachother, but the movies are set in a separate continuity from the manga.

[Rakurai]

In retrospect, I feel that they introduced the technique too early in the series' lifespan. It raised the power ceiling too high too early on and made it so that the fights coming afterward had to be on an absurdly high level. It also introduced the conundrum of Beerus using 10% of his power against "my Bulma" Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, yet still somehow being stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku x 10. The level of Kaio-ken used in its debut was waaaay too high. If anything, it should have just been the basic level of Kaio-ken (a simple 2x multiplier). Super Saiyan Blue Goku multiplied by two is still an insanely high level of power at that point in the series and would've still had the same impact. 10x just felt like overkill.

If it were up to me, I would've either saved Blue Kaio-ken for the Future Trunks arc or at least waited until then to introduce the higher multipliers. In the anime, Goku had no meaningful gains in strength during that arc, while Vegeta gained an apparently significant amount of power from his training in the Time Chamber. If introduced at that point in the series, the gulf in power created between Goku and Vegeta would have felt natural. Instead of a massive gap being created early on and lasting for an extended period of time, the iconic rivalry the two shared would have been more organic and believable. As it stands, Goku had dramatically eclipsed Vegeta in power during the Universe 6 tournament and the illusion of any sort of rivalry between them was gone until near the end of the Tournament of Power.

Wow, now that I think about it, you have a really good point.

KKx10 was busted and completely unnecessary. Hit was solidly established at SSB Goku's level, maybe slightly even better due to the efficiency of his techniques. There really was no need for an absurdly high multiplier. Hell, Goku in the Saiyan invasion arc used x4 as a last resort only.

SSB-KKx10 could've likely dealt with SSR Goku Black and maybe even Merged Zamasu, but instead Goku was hit with CIS and didn't bother using it for the sake of fake tension.

The ki control aspect was never touched upon again. Hell some would argue it makes no sense with the stamina draining aspect. With Completed Blue, the downside is that it requires a properly functioning body to use it, otherwise the user won't be able to endure its power.

And then we're expected to believe he can handle x20 just fine even though he had gotten so rusty that he was hurt by a gun, even though when he used it against Freeza in Namek he immediately got weaker afterwards.

This is why numerical multipliers don't work in the show, and why Toriyama got rid of them later on during the series. They're too absurd to believe.

[JulieYBM]

I don't like either as concepts, even if they look nice. They're one extra transformation to deal with in fights.

[Bergamo]

I don't like either as concepts, even if they look nice. They're one extra transformation to deal with in fights.

Neither of them are new transformations though. You could argue Kaioken may as well be a transformation as Goku gets red tinted skin and another aura, but Completed Blue is literally Super Saiyan Blue. Did you consider Full Power Super Saiyan from the Cell arc to be a new transformation?

[batistabus]

For me, anyways, Complete SSB puts Resurrection of F in a weird place, as Golden Freeza was the one to possess the whole "Ki leaking" problem that ultimately culminated in his defeat.

This is the only issue I have with Toyotaro's development of Super Saiyan Blue. If it has such a power drain even after 3 years of training in the RoSaT, how the hell were they able to outlast Golden Freeza? Without a manga telling of RoF, we're left with nothing but the film to fill in the blanks.

On the other hand, without a telling of RoF in the manga, there are still some plausible outs. All we know for sure is that Vegeta and Goku were SSB at the end of the fight (as shown in Freeza's hell flashback). Based on how transformations have been handled in what we've seen from the manga, I think it's entirely likely that Goku would've fought Freeza in Super Saiyan God up until the drawback of Golden Freeza had revealed itself.

[JulieYBM]

I don't like either as concepts, even if they look nice. They're one extra transformation to deal with in fights.

Neither of them are new transformations though. You could argue Kaioken may as well be a transformation as Goku gets red tinted skin and another aura, but Completed Blue is literally Super Saiyan Blue. Did you consider Full Power Super Saiyan from the Cell arc to be a new transformation?

Oh, I thought we were talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution for some reason. Nevermind, I love how Toyo-tarou has handled the completed take on Blue. I don't like Kaiou-Ken because it clearly defined that Gokuu was stronger than Vegeta and that just ruins what makes their relationship work so much since Kami to Kami: being on equal footing keeps the viewer constantly guessing as to who would win if they fought. With the completed Super Saiyan you keep them both on the same footing.

I prefer just having their bases contain Super Saiyan God-level power like was the case during the Golden Freeza arc. I really wish that had been kept because it lent the transformations more weight and placement in the story when they were risky one-shots.

[Marlowe89]

For me, anyways, Complete SSB puts Resurrection of F in a weird place, as Golden Freeza was the one to possess the whole "Ki leaking" problem that ultimately culminated in his defeat.

I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Goku was the one to infer Frieza's ki leaking issue based on his own experience, which could suggest that the stamina problem with Blue is still prevalent at the time of Resurrection F -- just not to the same degree as Frieza's new form, given that Goku and Vegeta dedicated a bit more time to training with theirs.

In my opinion, it's the anime especially that puts the percentages in Battle of Gods in an odd place, although I guess that's to be expected. Overall I think both films generally leave enough room for both mediums to mesh relatively well if you ignore some of the numerical discrepancies.

[ToshioWrites]

I don't like either as concepts, even if they look nice. They're one extra transformation to deal with in fights.

Neither of them are new transformations though. You could argue Kaioken may as well be a transformation as Goku gets red tinted skin and another aura, but Completed Blue is literally Super Saiyan Blue. Did you consider Full Power Super Saiyan from the Cell arc to be a new transformation?

Oh, I thought we were talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution for some reason. Nevermind, I love how Toyo-tarou has handled the completed take on Blue. I don't like Kaiou-Ken because it clearly defined that Gokuu was stronger than Vegeta and that just ruins what makes their relationship work so much since Kami to Kami: being on equal footing keeps the viewer constantly guessing as to who would win if they fought. With the completed Super Saiyan you keep them both on the same footing.

I prefer just having their bases contain Super Saiyan God-level power like was the case during the Golden Freeza arc. I really wish that had been kept because it lent the transformations more weight and placement in the story when they were risky one-shots.

By this do you mean only base and then blue form? As in the normal ss forms would be gone?

[Bullza]

Mastered Super Saiyan Blue I can see being one of the most forgettable forms ever.

[JazzMazz]

Neither of them are new transformations though. You could argue Kaioken may as well be a transformation as Goku gets red tinted skin and another aura, but Completed Blue is literally Super Saiyan Blue. Did you consider Full Power Super Saiyan from the Cell arc to be a new transformation?

Oh, I thought we were talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution for some reason. Nevermind, I love how Toyo-tarou has handled the completed take on Blue. I don't like Kaiou-Ken because it clearly defined that Gokuu was stronger than Vegeta and that just ruins what makes their relationship work so much since Kami to Kami: being on equal footing keeps the viewer constantly guessing as to who would win if they fought. With the completed Super Saiyan you keep them both on the same footing.

I prefer just having their bases contain Super Saiyan God-level power like was the case during the Golden Freeza arc. I really wish that had been kept because it lent the transformations more weight and placement in the story when they were risky one-shots.

By this do you mean only base and then blue form? As in the normal ss forms would be gone?

Yes, that's what Jacob means. The general reason is to limit the number of power-ups the characters have access to, in order to make the writing for fights less cluttered.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

For me, anyways, Complete SSB puts Resurrection of F in a weird place, as Golden Freeza was the one to possess the whole "Ki leaking" problem that ultimately culminated in his defeat.

This is the only issue I have with Toyotaro's development of Super Saiyan Blue. If it has such a power drain even after 3 years of training in the RoSaT, how the hell were they able to outlast Golden Freeza? Without a manga telling of RoF, we're left with nothing but the film to fill in the blanks.

On the other hand, without a telling of RoF in the manga, there are still some plausible outs. All we know for sure is that Vegeta and Goku were SSB at the end of the fight (as shown in Freeza's hell flashback). Based on how transformations have been handled in what we've seen from the manga, I think it's entirely likely that Goku would've fought Freeza in Super Saiyan God up until the drawback of Golden Freeza had revealed itself.

Thats one addition I didn't like added to SSB just to give it plot nerfing. Though the anime rationalized it as a form they couldn't use over and over again in a fight because of the strain, but I'm not sure if I even like that, because it then makes SS1 seem like just the most efficient form to have. It turned SSB into SS3 which ended up circular to their progression. Though the issue for me is them not establishing the difference between stamina drain and ki drain. They've both always paralleled. I just really dislike the concept added just so Toyotaro can give SSG relevance, it forced back in causes this contrivance. I always just say SSG as just raw god ki over their base forms and SSB just the mutation after they converted it.

[JulieYBM]

Neither of them are new transformations though. You could argue Kaioken may as well be a transformation as Goku gets red tinted skin and another aura, but Completed Blue is literally Super Saiyan Blue. Did you consider Full Power Super Saiyan from the Cell arc to be a new transformation?

Oh, I thought we were talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Evolution for some reason. Nevermind, I love how Toyo-tarou has handled the completed take on Blue. I don't like Kaiou-Ken because it clearly defined that Gokuu was stronger than Vegeta and that just ruins what makes their relationship work so much since Kami to Kami: being on equal footing keeps the viewer constantly guessing as to who would win if they fought. With the completed Super Saiyan you keep them both on the same footing.

I prefer just having their bases contain Super Saiyan God-level power like was the case during the Golden Freeza arc. I really wish that had been kept because it lent the transformations more weight and placement in the story when they were risky one-shots.

By this do you mean only base and then blue form? As in the normal ss forms would be gone?

Yup, like Jazz said, there only needs to be one transformation. The fights are less cluttered that way and the viewer doesn't have to constantly go through the same motion over-and-over during fights or wonder why one form is being skipped. The flow of the fights should be that Gokuu and Vegeta fight initially in their base form when fighting new opponents so as to avoid wasting their stamina with Blue or not keeping their foes in the dark with regards to their true power. This way when they can actually get a hang of their enemies or have to absolutely transform to survive they'll be backed into another corner that they will have to fight out of.

[ankokudaishogun]

Mastered Blue is far more efficient on long-term, but Blue Kaiohken gives Goku a greater power-up earlier.

Story-wise, I believe the main issue has been the anime going straight to Kaiohken x10. They should have used only x1, using x10 against Fused Zamasu's power ball.
If they felt just doubling Goku's power wasn't enough, they could have easily played the "Blue is all about Ki Control" and saying Blue Kaiohken gave a greater power-up than normal Kaiohken.


It's intersting how Mastered Blue is the reverse of Ultra Instinct: Mastered Blue is all about keeping one's ki in himself, Ultra Instinct is all about expand one's Cosmo beyond the Sixth Sen... wait, wrong series.

(then there is the fact I do believe Manga Zamasu being much weaker than both Halo Zamasu and Grotesque Zamasu, but that's for another topic)