Kaioken Blue vs Mastered Super Saiyan Blue. Which is Better?

[The Patrolman]

The two forms have one thing in common they both take a toll on the body (which makes no sense for MASTERED version of a form). So I ask which is better?

[Vegeta_Sama]

Visually, I prefer SSB Kaioken, since I really like tyr blue-red contrast, but story-wise I think it kind of breaks powerscaling since it amplifies his power too much. Mastered Blue makes more sense, I like the explenation that the Blue aura is power leaking out of the body, and that keeping it in, makes the user able to use SSB to the maximum extent of its power.

[Exline]

Visually, I prefer SSB Kaioken, since I really like tyr blue-red contrast, but story-wise I think it kind of breaks powerscaling since it amplifies his power too much. Mastered Blue makes more sense, I like the explenation that the Blue aura is power leaking out of the body, and that keeping it in, makes the user able to use SSB to the maximum extent of its power.

I agree, Kaioken Blue looks great but it messes an already imbalanced power scale. I stated in another thread that it's no longer as great as it was the first time we saw it due to it being spammed throughout super. I hope that, SSB Evolution, and Ultra Instinct do not return in the movie. I'd rather have Ultra Instinct stay as a dormant power we don't see for a while to build it's hype back up again.

I have no problem with Mastered SSB. It's a great way of making regular Super Saiyan Blue even better and stronger by trying to keep in all the leaked energy. It doesn't really make sense like OP said that a MASTERED form takes a toll on the body, but it's interesting to see how risky of a technique it is. We haven't dealt with that tension since SSJ 3 in the Buu Arc. They failed at making Kaioken Blue look like that.

Full-Powered Super Saiyan 1 made no sense to me as to why there is no stamina drain when activating. The names should be reversed imo haha.
Mastered Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan Blue.

[ToshioWrites]

Because the FP ssj or ssj grade 4 is about getting used to the form and not having to waste energy having to transform whereas the Completed ssb form requires you to seal a lot of energy inside your body which naturally causes your body to break down

[Lord Beerus]

Both forms fit the story well enough to justify their existence. Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken had an awesome debut in the anime, and while the introduction of "Mastered" Super Saiyan Blue seemed quite out of left field, I like the mechanics behind it.

[dbgtFO]

They fit their respective mediums; Kaioken is suitably over the top and a visual monster, while the sublety of Mastered Blue fits in the manga where there isn't much space for a big cool aura anyways.
Mastered Blue wouldn't work in the anime, because they would need to have the aura on for normal Blue all the time, which they already don't, because of a few things, I imagine.
Furthermore they clearly want to give everyone a big cool aura for the hell of it(even Androids have ones now), so it just would completely go against their stance on the subject.

I personally think they are both great in their own way, Kaioken hype moment, Mastered Blue satisfying conclusion to the Blue problem.

[Rebel Instinct]

The two forms have one thing in common they both take a toll on the body (which makes no sense for MASTERED version of a form). So I ask which is better?

It doesn't really make sense like OP said that a MASTERED form takes a toll on the body, but it's interesting to see how risky of a technique it is.

The confusion here stems from the inaccurate fan label given to the "mastered" Super Saiyan Blue form. In fact, it was never referred to in the manga as mastered at all. The form isn't "mastered", as Vegeta himself stated on page 36 of chapter 24, it's completed. That distinction makes a huge difference. As of the Future Trunks arc, Goku hadn't mastered Super Saiyan Blue, he just "completed" it. In essence, he had only just achieved the "true" form of Super Saiyan Blue. In fact, it wouldn't even be accurate to think of Completed Super Saiyan Blue as a distinct form, it's just Super Saiyan Blue - the real Super Saiyan Blue.

To help understand the difference, think of the form of Super Saiyan Blue that Goku and Vegeta had been using up until that point as Ultra Instinct Omen. It was "incomplete", but they could tap into a portion of the form's power. Completed Super Saiyan Blue is to Super Saiyan Blue like the silver haired form of Ultra Instinct is to Ultra Instinct Omen - they aren't separate forms, just complete and incomplete versions of the same form. Fans mislabeled the silver haired form of Ultra Instinct as "mastered" as well, but it wasn't true there either. The silver haired form is just Ultra Instinct, Omen was just the incomplete version of it. Plus, if it were mastered, he would be able to use it at will and it wouldn't have backfired on Goku like it did, damaging his body. If Completed Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct were mastered, Goku would be able to use the forms whenever he wanted with little to no drawbacks, much like Full Power Super Saiyan back in the Cell arc.

Like Kaio-ken Blue was once a life threatening technique to use, but was mastered over time to mitigate the strain on the body, Completed Super Saiyan Blue (and likely Ultra Instinct as well) will be mastered over time and the drawbacks will disappear. We may even see a truly "mastered" Super Saiyan Blue with no significant drawbacks during the Tournament of Power.

[Logania]

Kaioken SSJB by far. Its a visual marvel and is really the only transformation in the series (to my knowledge) that is formed by combining 2 transformations into 1. Mastered SSJB makes sense mechanically, but visually and hype-wise it's quite lacking.

[Rakurai]

@Rebel Instinct nailed it. The so-called "Mastered" SSB isn't a mastered form, it's "Completed." OP saying it makes no sense isn't due to Toyo messing up, it's due to how readers misunderstanding what's being demonstrated.

Anyways. Completed SSB takes the cake for me. SSB-KK was too flashy for me and I don't like the red-color aura clash (matter of personal preference). In addition, this whole ki control business was never brought again as a detriment which could've been used for enhancement of other techniques (for Vegeta as well).

[EGonzo]

I prefer Kaioken Blue. I don't mind Mastered/Completed Blue, but I do dislike how inconsistent it became from one chapter to another. It supposedly lets you use Blue's full power for longer (because in normal Blue the full power only lasts a few minutes before you get weaker) but by the ToP it apparently gives a power up now.

[Bergamo]

I prefer Kaioken Blue. I don't mind Mastered/Completed Blue, but I do dislike how inconsistent it became from one chapter to another. It supposedly lets you use Blue's full power for longer (because in normal Blue the full power only lasts a few minutes before you get weaker) but by the ToP it apparently gives a power up now.

It increases power in the same way that Goku in Full Power Super Saiyan is stronger than he was in regular SS, because he is able to increase his ki output and focus his energy more now that his ki isn't being consumed.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I honestly liked SSB/KK more.

The form brought the Kaio-ken back into prominence, they didn't try and use the weird weakness of SSB leaking its Ki when that was Golden Freeza's weakness to begin with, and indeed actually utilized the conceptual basis behind the form to back the combination up; that being a calm heart and enhanced control over Ki to control one of the wildest power-ups in the series.

Not that Complete SSBis bad, mind you.

I just feel that SSB/KK was more appropriate for what we've learned about SSB.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I really like both the same. I love the way the kaiken aura clashes with blue of ssb, and i like the idea of goku keeping all ki inside his body to far increase his power and performance.
Vissually, mastered SSB is the same as SSB, so its not the same in visual department.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I like both forms, but I prefer the Mastered (or completed) SSB.

This was a way to really explore the SSB transformation in depth, since from its first appearance, all we knew about the form was vague. The concept is interesting and had been worked out since the Champa tournament arc, plus it showed what the Super Saiyan Blue really should be, a grandiose and powerful transformation (proving to be able to rival Merged Zamasu).

In the anime we also had some moments like that, but the Kaioken simply overshadowed this. Goku, constantly using Kaioken against opponents, made it appear that the SSB was not as powerful.
The concept is also cool, but it seems that after the Champa tournament, this was simply ignored. Goku is able to use the Kaioken without any wear and the SSB's "calm heart" (quoted in EP 39) did not work on EP 109, Goku needing to return to his base form to form Genki Dama (who could not be done by anyone who had malicionousness creeps inside him)

I prefer Kaioken Blue. I don't mind Mastered/Completed Blue, but I do dislike how inconsistent it became from one chapter to another. It supposedly lets you use Blue's full power for longer (because in normal Blue the full power only lasts a few minutes before you get weaker) but by the ToP it apparently gives a power up now.

Since its introduction, the MSSB has actually seemed to be kind of power up over normal SSB, but it's just the true power of transformation.

When Goku uses normal SSB, he is not using the full potential of this transformation because of the overflowing Ki that spends a lot of energy, but when he uses the Mastered SSB (or contains the aura into his body), he gets much stronger, but at the same time is only using the true power of SSB.
It is not inconsistency

[Marlowe89]

Given how much I've expressed my displeasure with Kaioken Blue previously here, my answer should be obvious -- I prefer "Completed" Blue no question. Neither of them are mechanically unsound on the surface, but as I've mentioned before, I just don't feel like Kaioken works within some of the broader character themes that the series as a whole tries its damnedest to convey at times.

With that said, Kaioken Blue is certainly an "exciting" transformation/variation for lack of a better term. I'm not a fan of its concept or even how it was implemented in fights, but I think it's great at accumulating the kind of hype that Fuji TV's Sunday morning programming needed to instill in its target audience.

[EGonzo]

I prefer Kaioken Blue. I don't mind Mastered/Completed Blue, but I do dislike how inconsistent it became from one chapter to another. It supposedly lets you use Blue's full power for longer (because in normal Blue the full power only lasts a few minutes before you get weaker) but by the ToP it apparently gives a power up now.

It increases power in the same way that Goku in Full Power Super Saiyan is stronger than he was in regular SS, because he is able to increase his ki output and focus his energy more now that his ki isn't being consumed.

That makes a bit more sense, thanks.

[superfan2024]

Visually, I prefer SSB Kaioken, since I really like tyr blue-red contrast, but story-wise I think it kind of breaks powerscaling since it amplifies his power too much. Mastered Blue makes more sense, I like the explenation that the Blue aura is power leaking out of the body, and that keeping it in, makes the user able to use SSB to the maximum extent of its power.

I agree, Kaioken Blue looks great but it messes an already imbalanced power scale. I stated in another thread that it's no longer as great as it was the first time we saw it due to it being spammed throughout super. I hope that, SSB Evolution, and Ultra Instinct do not return in the movie. I'd rather have Ultra Instinct stay as a dormant power we don't see for a while to build it's hype back up again.

I have no problem with Mastered SSB. It's a great way of making regular Super Saiyan Blue even better and stronger by trying to keep in all the leaked energy. It doesn't really make sense like OP said that a MASTERED form takes a toll on the body, but it's interesting to see how risky of a technique it is. We haven't dealt with that tension since SSJ 3 in the Buu Arc. They failed at making Kaioken Blue look like that.

Full-Powered Super Saiyan 1 made no sense to me as to why there is no stamina drain when activating. The names should be reversed imo haha.
Mastered Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan Blue.

I hope that those forms don't appear in the movie too. Anyways, there's already a high chance that those forms won't appear in the movie given how Toriyama didn't really create those forms (at least for Kaioken), and/or how does forms are anime/Toei only.

[Bergamo]

Visually, I prefer SSB Kaioken, since I really like tyr blue-red contrast, but story-wise I think it kind of breaks powerscaling since it amplifies his power too much. Mastered Blue makes more sense, I like the explenation that the Blue aura is power leaking out of the body, and that keeping it in, makes the user able to use SSB to the maximum extent of its power.

I agree, Kaioken Blue looks great but it messes an already imbalanced power scale. I stated in another thread that it's no longer as great as it was the first time we saw it due to it being spammed throughout super. I hope that, SSB Evolution, and Ultra Instinct do not return in the movie. I'd rather have Ultra Instinct stay as a dormant power we don't see for a while to build it's hype back up again.

I have no problem with Mastered SSB. It's a great way of making regular Super Saiyan Blue even better and stronger by trying to keep in all the leaked energy. It doesn't really make sense like OP said that a MASTERED form takes a toll on the body, but it's interesting to see how risky of a technique it is. We haven't dealt with that tension since SSJ 3 in the Buu Arc. They failed at making Kaioken Blue look like that.

Full-Powered Super Saiyan 1 made no sense to me as to why there is no stamina drain when activating. The names should be reversed imo haha.
Mastered Super Saiyan and Full-Power Super Saiyan Blue.

I hope that those forms don't appear in the movie too. Anyways, there's already a high chance that those forms won't appear in the movie given how Toriyama didn't really create those forms (at least for Kaioken), and/or how does forms are anime/Toei only.

Mastered Blue probably won't be in the movie, but is almost 100% guaranteed to be in the manga adaptation of the movie.

[batistabus]

I loved SSBKK when it was first introduced. It was very well explained in that it was made possible because of SSB's "calm" ki, and it had such a big drawback that it seemed like it wasn't going to make future appearances. Of course, all of that was thrown out the window when Goku started doing it constantly. I think it looks awesome, but it really overstayed its welcome.

I understand that completed SSB isn't as flashy, but that's what I like about it. Auras are cool and all, but they sometimes clutter up a scene. Without an aura, you're able to focus on how striking Goku's poses are. Aesthetics aside, it works much better as a story beat. It feeds into Goku's training under Whis, and the fact that Vegeta is also able to do it helps maintain their rivalry.

If I had to choose one or the other, I'd go with completed SSB. That being said, SSBKK's first appearance will always be one of my from moments from DBS anime.

[Zephyr]

I prefer the completed Super Saiyan Blue. The Champa arc revealed that Blue had a major drawback, and the following arcs saw Goku and Vegeta get past that. It was a nice thing to see progress over time. With Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, we get to see it, and then afterwards learn that Blue was the solution to a problem we didn't know existed: stacking Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan. There's an episode or so of inter-arc filler where Goku suffers some drawbacks from it and then gets over, but outside of that, there's no progression to the thing; we pretty much just see it as the solution to a problem that gets retroactively created. The episode where he busts it out was pretty hype, though.

Kaioken SSJB by far. Its a visual marvel and is really the only transformation in the series (to my knowledge) that is formed by combining 2 transformations into 1.

GT had Golden Ozaru and/or Super Saiyan 4. And Super Saiyan Blue itself is the combination of Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan.