In defense of 18's hated line from Episode 131...

[Lord Beerus]

Just to preface, the universes taking part in the Tournament Of Power were considered dead weight and unnecessary by the very ruler who oversees them, and everyone taking part in the Tournament Of Power was fully aware of that.

And keep in mind that the story had already stressed that defying Zeno when he has his mind set on something would have severe consequences. So naturally, a wish that would seem to undo what Zeno had planned for from the very beginning would see quite dangerous in nature given how capricious Zeno is, especially when it comes to erasing stuff.

Plus, given how well #17 performed in the Tournament Of Power, and given that he basically saved his universe, is it really too much to ask that #18 encourages #17 to indulge himself and be a little selfish with the reward he very much earned? Especially considering how most of the main cast can be very selfish with their own desires in scenarios where billions of lives are on the line?

[Weejus]

I don't want to seem rude, but I felt the need to address these statements individually.

Just to preface, the universes taking part in the Tournament Of Power were considered dead weight and unnecessary by the very ruler who oversees them, and everyone taking part in the Tournament Of Power was fully aware of that.

That doesn't necessarily devalue any one life or another, nor does it make a boat a more valuable wish option than bringing everyone back.

And keep in mind that the story had already stressed that defying Zeno when he has his mind set on something would have severe consequences. So naturally, a wish that would seem to undo what Zeno had planned for from the very beginning would see quite dangerous in nature given how capricious Zeno is, especially when it comes to erasing stuff.

The protagonist of this series has the uncanny knack of being able to woo Zeno into doing whatever he wants, as long as he acts super goofy and cute about it, so there's no reason they couldn't have pulled it off even if Zeno and/or the Grand Priest objected.

Plus, given how well #17 performed in the Tournament Of Power, and given that he basically saved his universe, is it really too much to ask that #18 encourages #17 to indulge himself and be a little selfish with the reward he very much earned? Especially considering how most of the main cast can be very selfish with their own desires in scenarios where billions of lives are on the line?

There are times and places to treat oneself. Getting a boat when they could have potentially reversed countless unneeded deaths is not justifiable, regardless of how well 17 performed.

[Lord Beerus]

That doesn't necessarily devalue any one life or another, nor does it make a boat a more valuable wish option than bringing everyone back.

As far as everyone in-universe were concerned, the eight universes taking part in the Tournament Of Power were expendable. Hell, getting ride of them, from the perspective of some characters in the story, was doing the multiverse a favor. And the anime pulled no punches with emphasis just how much of shithole some universes can be or how poorly managed they are in general.

The protagonist of this series has the uncanny knack of being able to woo Zeno into doing whatever he wants, as long as he acts super goofy and cute about it, so there's no reason they couldn't have pulled it off even if Zeno and/or the Grand Priest objected.

Goku was far more in the good books with Beerus (a guy that never makes friends with any kind of mortal) than he ever was with Zeno. And even Beerus could only tolerate Goku's insubordinate behavior to a certain limit. He was going to kill Goku on spot just for idea of reminding Zeno about a harmless tournament. Lest we forget Zeno wiped out six universes over getting upset about something trivial. Goku being an acquaintance of Zeno means nothing in the grand scheme given how quickly and unexpectedly Zeno's mood can change.

There are times and places to treat oneself. Getting a boat when they could have potentially reversed countless unneeded deaths is not justifiable, regardless of how well 17 performed.

Again, these erasures of the universe, from the perspective of Zeno, were something that was no skin of his back because there universes were so below the standard required for them be a necessity in the cosmic balance in the multiverse. And consequently, eight universes were seen as expendable. This was Zeno's equivalent of trimming the fat. You may not agree on it, but as far as the story is concerned, the eight universe were doing enough to justify their existence.

And keep in mind that cast are very much more than willing to put their own selfish desires over the lives of billions on many occasions in the story.

[Weejus]

As far as everyone in-universe were concerned, the eight universes taking part in the Tournament Of Power were expendable. Hell, getting ride of them, from the perspective of some characters in the story, was doing the multiverse a favor. And the anime pulled no punches with emphasis just how much of shithole some universes can be or how poorly managed they are in general.

Regardless of how shite some universes were portrayed as being, they are still more valuable than a boat.

Goku was far more in the good books with Beerus (a guy that never makes friends with any kind of mortal) than he ever was with Zeno. And even Beerus could only tolerate Goku's insubordinate behavior to a certain limit. He was going to kill Goku on spot just for idea of reminding Zeno about a harmless tournament. Lest we forget Zeno wiped out six universes over getting upset about something trivial. Goku being an acquaintance of Zeno means nothing in the grand scheme given how quickly and unexpectedly Zeno's mood can change.

If Zeno is so childlike (despite his position) that his mood can change over the smallest thing, then there's no way someone he's even remotely friendly with, like Goku (remember, Zeno threatened to erase his guards when they got in Goku's way), couldn't change his mind. We've also seen that Zeno only seems to act affectionately towards Goku and his future counterpart.

Again, these erasures of the universe, from the perspective of Zeno, were something that was no skin of his back because there universes were so below the standard required for them be a necessity in the cosmic balance in the multiverse. And consequently, eight universes were seen as expendable. This was Zeno's equivalent of trimming the fat. You may not agree on it, but as far as the story is concerned, the eight universe were doing enough to justify their existence.

That doesn't really address my point at all. My point was that it was a terrible time to suggest that 17 'treat himself' or 'act selfishly', not whether it seemed that way in the eyes of Zeno.

And keep in mind that cast are very much more than willing to put their own selfish desires over the lives of billions on many occasions in the story.

The stakes have never been this high, and the right option has never been presented so blatantly. The principal cast's amoral tensions worked better early on, but when the choice is between undoing the damage caused and acquiring a material possession, there's no room for it without making the cast seem like gigantic assholes and/or bloodthirsty killers.

[PFM18]

She has always been the materialistic type. Whether it be the Buu saga or in Super she has always been that way. She also loves her brother. These two things are reflected in what she said during that time

[Michsi]

To that degree? I also think 'materialistic' fits her, but there are levels to that, too.

Still say this was a flub from the writers that wanted a heartfelt moment and didn't quite think the implications through. I mean, Krillin being that surprised at the wish was over-dramatization too.

I don't think it was over-dramatized. Who would have thought that 17 out of all people would be the one ro bring back all of the universes? In-universe (sorry for the redundant use of the word) pretty much everybody accepted the fact that the universes were gone forever, so it was quite a shocker.

Right especially when #17 bonded over no one in the ToP. Vegeta already was gonna wish back and Goku definitely would have since he said he wanted to see U6 girls again and Jiren. #17 had no reason to do it hence the surprise by everyone when he did.

It was the humane thing to do? The story went and made 17 into this nature loving, child adopting person and we're supposed to be surprised that he chose this wish? Were we supposed to be surprised at anyone (aside Freeza) for making that wish?

It was so very obvious that this would be the outcome that them trying to paint it as a twist falls painfully flat. I mean, even Goku stating earlier that he didn't know what he would wish for seemed like such a poor attempt at diverting our expectations.

We all get that our main characters aren't the Justice League, but this goes beyond moral grey area. What makes this so frustrating is that this whole boat thing always felt more like a joke and they played it straight at the end with #18's line.

Again, what bothers me here is the writing, since I am absolutely certain "extreme selfishness" wasn't what they were going for when they wrote that line for 18.

[Vegeta_Sama]

As far as everyone in-universe were concerned, the eight universes taking part in the Tournament Of Power were expendable. Hell, getting ride of them, from the perspective of some characters in the story, was doing the multiverse a favor. And the anime pulled no punches with emphasis just how much of shithole some universes can be or how poorly managed they are in general.

Regardless of how shite some universes were portrayed as being, they are still more valuable than a boat.

Just like everything it has to so with perspective. 18 couldn't care less about those other universes, they were the opposition between her, and her survival. Is it really that difficult to imagine that she would have no connection to people she just met 40 minutes ago in a survival battle? Just the fact that there's people debating about this proves that it's a valid and belivable point of view

[BlueBasilisk]

It was the humane thing to do? The story went and made 17 into this nature loving, child adopting person and we're supposed to be surprised that he chose this wish? Were we supposed to be surprised at anyone (aside Freeza) for making that wish?

It was so very obvious that this would be the outcome that them trying to paint it as a twist falls painfully flat. I mean, even Goku stating earlier that he didn't know what he would wish for seemed like such a poor attempt at diverting our expectations.

We all get that our main characters aren't the Justice League, but this goes beyond moral grey area. What makes this so frustrating is that this whole boat thing always felt more like a joke and they played it straight at the end with #18's line.

Again, what bothers me here is the writing, since I am absolutely certain "extreme selfishness" wasn't what they were going for when they wrote that line for 18.

What really gets me is that plenty of people in this fandom were more than willing to defend Universe 7 for not wishing everyone back at the end of the tournament before it actually happened, and I distinctly recall getting into arguments with people over it both here and on the dbz subreddit because the characters being just hunky dory with it would kill any sympathy factor for me. It was always "they don't owe anything to these people they barely know," or "it's against Zeno's will so they have to stay dead," or "muh serious stakes," or the boat or Frieza crawling up his own ass and becoming a god or whatever. But when 18 chimes in and gives voice to that, she's the selfish bitch for even contemplating not wishing everyone back.

[Weejus]

As far as everyone in-universe were concerned, the eight universes taking part in the Tournament Of Power were expendable. Hell, getting ride of them, from the perspective of some characters in the story, was doing the multiverse a favor. And the anime pulled no punches with emphasis just how much of shithole some universes can be or how poorly managed they are in general.

Regardless of how shite some universes were portrayed as being, they are still more valuable than a boat.

Just like everything it has to so with perspective. 18 couldn't care less about those other universes, they were the opposition between her, and her survival. Is it really that difficult to imagine that she would have no connection to people she just met 40 minutes ago in a survival battle? Just the fact that there's people debating about this proves that it's a valid and belivable point of view

Do you really need to form a connection to someone to feel that they didn't need to die? Is general, uniform compassion totally extinct within the Dragon Ball multiverse?

(Don't say 'yes' to that last question just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower.)

[Vegeta_Sama]

Regardless of how shite some universes were portrayed as being, they are still more valuable than a boat.

Just like everything it has to so with perspective. 18 couldn't care less about those other universes, they were the opposition between her, and her survival. Is it really that difficult to imagine that she would have no connection to people she just met 40 minutes ago in a survival battle? Just the fact that there's people debating about this proves that it's a valid and belivable point of view

Do you really need to form a connection to someone to feel that they didn't need to die? Is general, uniform compassion totally extinct within the Dragon Ball multiverse?

(Don't say 'yes' to that last question just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower.)

You're basically asking me a question and then saying "btw, don't give me the right answer!" just what do you want to hear ,dude? No, compassion isn't dead in DB, that's why 17 just wished all of the universes back. And what do you mean with "don't say yes just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower"? So I just have to ignore a trait of the character in question? Nowhere was it ever stated that she was a completely different person from back then, so I don't see why she would have to go through a personality shift right now. Also, give me 1 good reason to explain why 18 (that's right ,her, not you) should give two shits about the other universes.

[Weejus]

Just like everything it has to so with perspective. 18 couldn't care less about those other universes, they were the opposition between her, and her survival. Is it really that difficult to imagine that she would have no connection to people she just met 40 minutes ago in a survival battle? Just the fact that there's people debating about this proves that it's a valid and belivable point of view

Do you really need to form a connection to someone to feel that they didn't need to die? Is general, uniform compassion totally extinct within the Dragon Ball multiverse?

(Don't say 'yes' to that last question just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower.)

You're basically asking me a question and then saying "btw, don't give me the right answer!" just what do you want to hear ,dude? No, compassion isn't dead in DB, that's why 17 just wished all of the universes back. And what do you mean with "don't say yes just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower"? So I just have to ignore a trait of the character in question? Nowhere was it ever stated that she was a completely different person from back then, so I don't see why she would have to go through a personality shift right now. Also, give me 1 good reason to explain why 18 (that's right ,her, not you) should give two shits about the other universes.

I see where you're going with this, but let me explain a couple things.

1: Reread that last sentence. Reread the second half. 'Where the stakes were lower.' That's the important bit. Back in the first arc, when people wanted to wish for their own desires, the deaths of trillions were not the context for the wish, unlike now.

2: As such, said 'trait' is mostly rendered moot in this scenario as long as the writers want to keep these characters as the marketable good guys that keep kids watching.

3: You mean to tell me 18 never changed? You honestly mean to tell me that the mass-murdering robot death machine dynamic duo from the early Cell arc are the same 17 and 18 that have jobs and families and live peacefully now?

4: As I said, based on basic, universal morality, 18 doesn't necessarily have to 'give a shit' about the other universes, but it should be expected that she'd value the lives of all those people over a boat.

[Michsi]

It was the humane thing to do? The story went and made 17 into this nature loving, child adopting person and we're supposed to be surprised that he chose this wish? Were we supposed to be surprised at anyone (aside Freeza) for making that wish?

It was so very obvious that this would be the outcome that them trying to paint it as a twist falls painfully flat. I mean, even Goku stating earlier that he didn't know what he would wish for seemed like such a poor attempt at diverting our expectations.

We all get that our main characters aren't the Justice League, but this goes beyond moral grey area. What makes this so frustrating is that this whole boat thing always felt more like a joke and they played it straight at the end with #18's line.

Again, what bothers me here is the writing, since I am absolutely certain "extreme selfishness" wasn't what they were going for when they wrote that line for 18.

What really gets me is that plenty of people in this fandom were more than willing to defend Universe 7 for not wishing everyone back at the end of the tournament before it actually happened, and I distinctly recall getting into arguments with people over it both here and on the dbz subreddit because the characters being just hunky dory with it would kill any sympathy factor for me. It was always "they don't owe anything to these people they barely know," or "it's against Zeno's will so they have to stay dead," or "muh serious stakes," or the boat or Frieza crawling up his own ass and becoming a god or whatever. But when 18 chimes in and gives voice to that, she's the selfish bitch for even contemplating not wishing everyone back.

Defending as in seriously defending the characters or simply defending the possibility of this outcome and the characters being written that way. If it's the latter, I can't really blame them - some characterizations in Super have put fans on edge. But that being how these characters are genuienly supposed to be? None of them, with the exception of Freeza, should at this point in time be the sort of people that would wish for anything other saving the lives that were lost.

I mean, for crying out loud, they wish back innocent bystanders that get killed all the time, why would this be any different?

[nato25]

Do you really need to form a connection to someone to feel that they didn't need to die? Is general, uniform compassion totally extinct within the Dragon Ball multiverse?

(Don't say 'yes' to that last question just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower.)

You're basically asking me a question and then saying "btw, don't give me the right answer!" just what do you want to hear ,dude? No, compassion isn't dead in DB, that's why 17 just wished all of the universes back. And what do you mean with "don't say yes just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower"? So I just have to ignore a trait of the character in question? Nowhere was it ever stated that she was a completely different person from back then, so I don't see why she would have to go through a personality shift right now. Also, give me 1 good reason to explain why 18 (that's right ,her, not you) should give two shits about the other universes.

I see where you're going with this, but let me explain a couple things.

1: Reread that last sentence. Reread the second half. 'Where the stakes were lower.' That's the important bit. Back in the first arc, when people wanted to wish for their own desires, the deaths of trillions were not the context for the wish, unlike now.

2: As such, said 'trait' is mostly rendered moot in this scenario as long as the writers want to keep these characters as the marketable good guys that keep kids watching.

3: You mean to tell me 18 never changed? You honestly mean to tell me that the mass-murdering robot death machine dynamic duo from the early Cell arc are the same 17 and 18 that have jobs and families and live peacefully now?

4: As I said, based on basic, universal morality, 18 doesn't necessarily have to 'give a shit' about the other universes, but it should be expected that she'd value the lives of all those people over a boat.

18 has changed but only to care about people beyond herself in a very small bubble, she needs time to get to know you, i cant imagine it was easy for krillin to even get a date with her but thats conjecture.

I truly dont believe 18 possesses the morale compass to put a trillion randoms before her and her family's desires.

Id pose the question another way, if 18 wins the tournament do you think she makes the same wish?

17 has changed a lot more than 18 and I think the tournament brought that out even more. While he was kind of apathetic towards the beginning he really grew to believe all life was precious and worth saving and I think that was well reflected in the TOP.

[BlueBasilisk]

Defending as in seriously defending the characters or simply defending the possibility of this outcome and the characters being written that way. If it's the latter, I can't really blame them - some characterizations in Super have put fans on edge. But that being how these characters are genuienly supposed to be? None of them, with the exception of Freeza, should at this point in time be the sort of people that would wish for anything other saving the lives that were lost.

I mean, for crying out loud, they wish back innocent bystanders that get killed all the time, why would this be any different?

Both. I saw the former pop up more and more after Goku told Ribrianne he didn't know what he'd wish for.

[nato25]

It was the humane thing to do? The story went and made 17 into this nature loving, child adopting person and we're supposed to be surprised that he chose this wish? Were we supposed to be surprised at anyone (aside Freeza) for making that wish?

It was so very obvious that this would be the outcome that them trying to paint it as a twist falls painfully flat. I mean, even Goku stating earlier that he didn't know what he would wish for seemed like such a poor attempt at diverting our expectations.

We all get that our main characters aren't the Justice League, but this goes beyond moral grey area. What makes this so frustrating is that this whole boat thing always felt more like a joke and they played it straight at the end with #18's line.

Again, what bothers me here is the writing, since I am absolutely certain "extreme selfishness" wasn't what they were going for when they wrote that line for 18.

What really gets me is that plenty of people in this fandom were more than willing to defend Universe 7 for not wishing everyone back at the end of the tournament before it actually happened, and I distinctly recall getting into arguments with people over it both here and on the dbz subreddit because the characters being just hunky dory with it would kill any sympathy factor for me. It was always "they don't owe anything to these people they barely know," or "it's against Zeno's will so they have to stay dead," or "muh serious stakes," or the boat or Frieza crawling up his own ass and becoming a god or whatever. But when 18 chimes in and gives voice to that, she's the selfish bitch for even contemplating not wishing everyone back.

Defending as in seriously defending the characters or simply defending the possibility of this outcome and the characters being written that way. If it's the latter, I can't really blame them - some characterizations in Super have put fans on edge. But that being how these characters are genuienly supposed to be? None of them, with the exception of Freeza, should at this point in time be the sort of people that would wish for anything other saving the lives that were lost.

I mean, for crying out loud, they wish back innocent bystanders that get killed all the time, why would this be any different?

In the context of would I have made the same comment as 18, probably not, so I'm not defending her decision in that regars.

My main point is its in character for her to say something like this. Most people probably would have been more cool with it if she just quietly said something like "What about your cruise ship?"

[Michsi]

Defending as in seriously defending the characters or simply defending the possibility of this outcome and the characters being written that way. If it's the latter, I can't really blame them - some characterizations in Super have put fans on edge. But that being how these characters are genuienly supposed to be? None of them, with the exception of Freeza, should at this point in time be the sort of people that would wish for anything other saving the lives that were lost.

I mean, for crying out loud, they wish back innocent bystanders that get killed all the time, why would this be any different?

Both. I saw the former pop up more and more after Goku told Ribrianne he didn't know what he'd wish for.

That moment always felt so insincere to me. As I said, it seemed like an attempt at diversion with the intention of making that actual wish feel like a twist. Sure, DBS went all out with "Goku ain't no hero" , but that was ridiculous.
With 18 though it's a little worse than that because her characterization has suffered throughout the entire arc.

In the context of would I have made the same comment as 18, probably not, so I'm not defending her decision in that regars.

My main point is its in character for her to say something like this. Most people probably would have been more cool with it if she just quietly said something like "What about your cruise ship?"

I don't think it's in character, though, simply because of scale of what was at stake. I have no problem of her being depicted as materialistic, but I was never under the impression she would choose money or possession over someone's life.

As I said, they specifically mentioned how kind she had gotten due to her reaction at seeing U9 being erased.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Do you really need to form a connection to someone to feel that they didn't need to die? Is general, uniform compassion totally extinct within the Dragon Ball multiverse?

(Don't say 'yes' to that last question just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower.)

You're basically asking me a question and then saying "btw, don't give me the right answer!" just what do you want to hear ,dude? No, compassion isn't dead in DB, that's why 17 just wished all of the universes back. And what do you mean with "don't say yes just because of the principal cast's past demonstrations of selfish attitudes during times where the stakes were lower"? So I just have to ignore a trait of the character in question? Nowhere was it ever stated that she was a completely different person from back then, so I don't see why she would have to go through a personality shift right now. Also, give me 1 good reason to explain why 18 (that's right ,her, not you) should give two shits about the other universes.

I see where you're going with this, but let me explain a couple things.

1: Reread that last sentence. Reread the second half. 'Where the stakes were lower.' That's the important bit. Back in the first arc, when people wanted to wish for their own desires, the deaths of trillions were not the context for the wish, unlike now.

2: As such, said 'trait' is mostly rendered moot in this scenario as long as the writers want to keep these characters as the marketable good guys that keep kids watching.

3: You mean to tell me 18 never changed? You honestly mean to tell me that the mass-murdering robot death machine dynamic duo from the early Cell arc are the same 17 and 18 that have jobs and families and live peacefully now?

4: As I said, based on basic, universal morality, 18 doesn't necessarily have to 'give a shit' about the other universes, but it should be expected that she'd value the lives of all those people over a boat.

1. The stakes were high, yes, but if all of those universes were never brought back, it's not like her life would be different. I could argue that the high stakes made her outlook change into an even more selfish one, since that's the human characteristic that comes out the most when one's life is threatened.

2. I don't feel the need to get into this one since it doesn't add anything meaningful to this conversation

3. To be fair, 18 never killed anyone in the main timeline, and she never intended to hurt anyone besides Goku, since that's what she was programmed to do. She changed yes, but it was nothing radical since this timeline's version was already a seriously toned down 18 compared to Trunks's future. And, she never gave the impression of someone who cares for something other than herself, her family, and money, even after she settle down with Krillin.

4. You don't get the point. She doesn't value the boat itself over the other universes, it's something much more than that. She values her brother's needs, cause it's actually something that she cares about, and that way more meaningful for her than a bunch of no names she's never gonna see again in her entire life. Wheather or not the universes were brought back , she won't get anything out of it, while on the other hand, if her brother wished for a boat, she would be happy for him, and that's definitely a better outcome for her

[wolflonnie]

Again this crap? Online people surely feeds on everything and anything these days lol.
It's just one poor line which serves to emphatize 17's decision, as we don't already know he changed. Nothing more nothing less. No need to hate 18.

[FortuneSSJ]

There's nothing wrong with that line, if you the know the character.

You already gave the right answer - That's how she is.
She doesn't even care about the boat itself. She cares about her brother.

The problem once again comes from the fanbase.

Those people are failing to realize that only because a character belongs to the main cast, he/she doesn't always have to be morally correct. Not even the main character behaviour of this franchise is morally correct. That's part of their charm and what makes them interesting to me. I guess it's easier to complain and make memes about it.

If that line came out from someone like Gohan or FT Trunks, now that would be weird.

[wolflonnie]

There's nothing wrong with that line, if you the know the character.

You already gave the right answer - That's how she is.
She doesn't even care about the boat itself. She cares about her brother.

The problem once again comes from the fanbase.

Those people are failing to realize that only because a character belongs to the main cast, he/she doesn't always have to be morally correct. Not even the main character behaviour of this franchise is morally correct. That's part of their charm and what makes them interesting to me. I guess it's easier to complain and make memes about it.

If that line came out from someone like Gohan or FT Trunks, now that would be weird.

Well, the thing is, if taken seriously, that lines means that A18 is (still) a sociopath at the very least. Which she clearly isn't. She's cold and reserved but not a sociopath.
Now if everybody could jump off their high horses and see things as they honestly are, it's just one poorly written line and that's it.