It wasn’t really ever about technique in the first few placeMKCSTEALTH wrote:I hope so. Id really like to have them bring the focus less on power, but rather technique again. Have him travel to these other universes and learn styles of fighting to combat threats instead of different hair colors
Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
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- Not-So-Newbie
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
No chance. Assuming the story keeps going they'll always come out with something else.
Though I hope they stick with Ultra Instinct for a long time and when they do decide to give him something new then still have it tie in to Ultra Instinct. Perhaps give him additional abilities to further enhance his offense and defense rather than something completely different.
Though I hope they stick with Ultra Instinct for a long time and when they do decide to give him something new then still have it tie in to Ultra Instinct. Perhaps give him additional abilities to further enhance his offense and defense rather than something completely different.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
I don't think they are going to give Goku a new form anytime soon but I could be wrong.Bullza wrote:No chance. Assuming the story keeps going they'll always come out with something else.
Though I hope they stick with Ultra Instinct for a long time and when they do decide to give him something new then still have it tie in to Ultra Instinct. Perhaps give him additional abilities to further enhance his offense and defense rather than something completely different.
Majinwarman
So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
I thought that when Super Saiyan God came out. Then immediately got hit with the Super Cyan form.majinwarman wrote:Bullza wrote: I don't think they are going to give Goku a new form anytime soon but I could be wrong.
Not saying it's a guarantee or anything, but I just have this weird feeling he'll somehow get a variation of Ultra Instinct or combine it with Super Saiyan or something in the new movie (Please don't do this Toriyama)
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.
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Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
I hope not!Logania wrote:I thought that when Super Saiyan God came out. Then immediately got hit with the Super Cyan form.majinwarman wrote:Bullza wrote: I don't think they are going to give Goku a new form anytime soon but I could be wrong.
Not saying it's a guarantee or anything, but I just have this weird feeling he'll somehow get a variation of Ultra Instinct or combine it with Super Saiyan or something in the new movie (Please don't do this Toriyama)
Majinwarman
So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
well for something ... can not do it at will
- ZeroNeonix
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Nah. The longer Dragon Ball runs, the more transformations we'll have. I don't necessarily think there will be a level beyond Ultra Instinct, but I suspect it will be stacked with other transformations. If anything, Goku's final transformation will be Ultra Instinct Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Kaioken x10. By the time Goku is done saying the name, the villain will get bored and walk away.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
I think the series doesn't have to be oversaturated with transformations. From the end of the Frieza saga to the end of the Cell Saga, we only got Super Saiyan 2, and at the time it wasn't even a new Super Saiyan, it was Gohan's Potential. This only started with the Buu arc where we got SS2,SS3,Ultimate Gohan, Fusion Dance, and Potara Fusion.
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DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations
DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Well, to be fair Fusion isn't really a transformation.Bergamo wrote:I think the series doesn't have to be oversaturated with transformations. From the end of the Frieza saga to the end of the Cell Saga, we only got Super Saiyan 2, and at the time it wasn't even a new Super Saiyan, it was Gohan's Potential. This only started with the Buu arc where we got SS2,SS3,Ultimate Gohan, Fusion Dance, and Potara Fusion.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Kinda wish SSJ2 was exclusive to Gohan.Bergamo wrote:I think the series doesn't have to be oversaturated with transformations. From the end of the Frieza saga to the end of the Cell Saga, we only got Super Saiyan 2, and at the time it wasn't even a new Super Saiyan, it was Gohan's Potential. This only started with the Buu arc where we got SS2,SS3,Ultimate Gohan, Fusion Dance, and Potara Fusion.
And that Goku's transformation was a whole separate branch of SSJ transformations like Grades 1 and 2.
The fact that everyone gets the same transformation is what made those popular forms less interesting in the first place.
I personally feel Gotenks ruined the SSJ3 transformation. Goku and Vegeta ruined SSJ2. Caulifla and Cabba are the biggest offenders when it comes to transformations as well. I've somewhat come to terms with this route the transformations have taken, but deep down I wish Toriyama had put more effort into making new forms for these characters.
Idk if Majin Vegeta counts as a separate transformation, but I felt it would've been better if he kept that form with the M on his head. That's the only interesting concept to come out Young Jijii's fan manga. Substituting that form for SSJ2 was such a waste.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
You're forgetting all the Super Saiyan forms that we got inbetween the Freeza and the end of the Cell saga.Bergamo wrote:I think the series doesn't have to be oversaturated with transformations. From the end of the Frieza saga to the end of the Cell Saga, we only got Super Saiyan 2, and at the time it wasn't even a new Super Saiyan, it was Gohan's Potential. This only started with the Buu arc where we got SS2,SS3,Ultimate Gohan, Fusion Dance, and Potara Fusion.
Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Grade 2 (Super Vegeta)
Super Saiyan Grade 3 (Trunks)
Super Saiyan Grade 4 (Goku & Gohan, otherwise known as FPSSJ)
Super Saiyan 2
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Ultra Instinct is definitely not Gokou’s last transformation. Ultra Instinct from now on is a situational transformation that will be used at the last moments. Unless they keep giving Gokou more martial arts uniforms to profit from then we’re getting more transformations.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
For now it is.
- PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
THERE'S AN IDEA!Meshack wrote:Ultra Instinct is definitely not Gokou’s last transformation. Ultra Instinct from now on is a situational transformation that will be used at the last moments. Unless they keep giving Gokou more martial arts uniforms to profit from then we’re getting more transformations.
Using Goku's CLOTHES as the transformations!
Thanks to experiencing the Ultra Instinct, it doesn't immediately rip his clothes off when Goku ascends to this power anymore. When he goes to Ultra Instinct Omen, he loses no shirt. When he has to take it up to the completed Ultra Instinct, he loses his orange shirt. And when he must break his limits once again somehow, he'll lose even his blue shirt for whatever lies beyond complete Ultra Instinct!
It's genius! Though I'm sure fans will try to figure out what form Goku would utilize to be able to blow off his pants
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Well he still hasn't mastered it yet so I sure hope this one sticks around for a bit before there's a new one lol
But yeah, logically, there could be UI2 etc
But then writers would need to go Infinite War style to break the game lol
But yeah, logically, there could be UI2 etc
But then writers would need to go Infinite War style to break the game lol
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
i Bet the Next Transformation (or a upcoming one) for Goku maybe something Like Super Saiyan: Ultra Instinct that will probably lead to SSJ God: Ultra Instinct then SSJ Blue: Ultra Instinct.
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
If Dragon Ball was all about producing a good story, Super Saiyan God would have likely been Goku's final transformation. Possibly not even that.
But, with Toei and Shueisha at the wheel, the franchise is all about merchandising these days.
So, no. I imagine the new film will introduce one, and we'll get at least one sometime after Super comes back for its second run(Though, I'd guess at least two).
But, with Toei and Shueisha at the wheel, the franchise is all about merchandising these days.
So, no. I imagine the new film will introduce one, and we'll get at least one sometime after Super comes back for its second run(Though, I'd guess at least two).
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
The most iconic thing about DBZ was the transformations and the sequel is no different. Having transformations does not restrict you from having a good a story. It really is that simple.Robo4900 wrote:If Dragon Ball was all about producing a good story, Super Saiyan God would have likely been Goku's final transformation. Possibly not even that.
But, with Toei and Shueisha at the wheel, the franchise is all about merchandising these days.
So, no. I imagine the new film will introduce one, and we'll get at least one sometime after Super comes back for its second run(Though, I'd guess at least two).
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Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
The original Super Saiyan form, yes, to a certain extent. The rest, not really that much at all.PFM18 wrote:The most iconic thing about DBZ was the transformations
Still, just because something's iconic, doesn't mean you should do it constantly. One of the iconic lines from Avengers was "Puny god", and you don't see them repeating that line every movie. One of the most iconic things about the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films was the train scene from #2. Would doing the exact same thing in any future Spider-Man movie make those movies better? No, they'd just be imitating something that was already great, and not breaking their own new ground.
One of the most iconic things in Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel is sudden, unexpected character deaths. But they don't do it very frequently at all. Otherwise, you'd be expecting people to be dropping dead left and right, and while it would certainly give the shows an added sense of tension and stakes, each death would have the tiniest fraction as much impact as the deaths that were actually in the series had. And... Dragon Ball had kind of already fallen victim to lessened impact of transformations to an extent with its original 3 or 4 main Super Saiyan transformations that were introduced over the original 508 episodes.
Ultimately, Dragon Ball does not need new transformations to tell good stories. It dealt without any transformations at all until the Freeza arc, which was the ninth arc of the series, appearing about a third of the way into the run. Throughought the entire remaining two thirds of the anime, comprising about 9 arcs, they only introduced 2 or 3 more transformations. Super introduced a new one in its first, its second, and essentially two in its fourth arc. There's an average of one form introduced every 32 episodes. To me, that doesn't say "Continuing a running theme in the franchise", it says "How about, instead of spending time introducing new, deep, memorable characters, we instead just make Goku's hair yet another colour?"
(For reference, the original run had an average of one new form every 127 episodes, which is only about 26 fewer episodes than the original Dragon Ball series had in total. Counting just Z, it's 97, which is one fewer than the total number of episodes Kai 1.0 had. Kai averages to 55, though Kai 1.0 on its own averages to 49. I remind you that Kai 1.0 is 33 episodes shorter than Super)
You're right.PFM18 wrote:and the sequel is no different. Having transformations does not restrict you from having a good a story.
The Freeza and Cell arcs did a great job about introducing transformations, and the Boo arc subverted it all rather cleverly with the actually pretty useless Super Saiyan 3, but I don't think they're just introducing new transformations to aid the story in Super. I'm pretty certain they're just cramming in as many new transformations as they can, story be damned. And even if this wasn't the case, it's really lazy writing:
"How do we make this guy stronger for the first two thirds of the arc, then have the goodguys beat him at the end?"
"Just do a new transformation."
"Didn't we do that like 5 times already?"
"Eh, no one will notice."
"Alright... What kind of design should we do?"
"Just do it like the last three; make them glow a new colour, and change their hair to match."
Honestly, even if it is purely lazy writing, I don't think Super's writing staff is going to suddenly get less lazy after the movie.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.
Re: Is Ultra Instinct Goku’s final transformation?
Yeah this is very intellectually dishonest. Not sure why you do this but you lumped Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball z together when you make these calculations and statements about not introducing a transformation until the ninth arc. You and I both know this is a conversation about DBZ and DBS not DB and you are just for some reason trying to lie to further your argument. Obviously DB didn't have transformations. Freeza was not the ninth arc it was the second. Of the four arcs in Dragon Ball Z two of their plots literally boiled down to just achieving new transformations. The Namek Arc was all about achieving Super Saiyan and then the Cell arc essentially was a repetition of all the Saiyans talking about "finding a level beyond a Super Saiyan" in which there were several transformations introduced in just that one arc.Robo4900 wrote:Ultimately, Dragon Ball does not need new transformations to tell good stories. It dealt without any transformations at all until the Freeza arc, which was the ninth arc of the series, appearing about a third of the way into the run. Throughought the entire remaining two thirds of the anime, comprising about 9 arcs, they only introduced 2 or 3 more transformations. Super introduced a new one in its first, its second, and essentially two in its fourth arc. There's an average of one form introduced every 32 episodes. To me, that doesn't say "Continuing a running theme in the franchise", it says "How about, instead of spending time introducing new, deep, memorable characters, we instead just make Goku's hair yet another colour?"
(For reference, the original run had an average of one new form every 127 episodes, which is only about 26 fewer episodes than the original Dragon Ball series had in total. Counting just Z, it's 97, which is one fewer than the total number of episodes Kai 1.0 had. Kai averages to 55, though Kai 1.0 on its own averages to 49. I remind you that Kai 1.0 is 33 episodes shorter than Super)
DBS literally introduced far fewer transformations than DBZ and it isn't really even close. Before Super even started the two DBZ movies introduced two transformations and Super adapted them and literally Goku and Vegeta were using the same form that was introduced in the movie until the final episode of the entire series. Almsot the entire series consisted of SSB being the top form among the main cast. DBZ had SSJ, SSJ Grade 2, MSSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 among the main cast. they had 4 arcs and 3 of the 4 introduced atleast one new form to the cast. DBS essentially used SSB throughout the entire story with the exception of UI and SSBE that were given at the end but were really not even truly permanent forms so it hardly counts. The Zamasu and Universe 6 arcs introduced exactly 0 new forms to the main cast and you cant say that about DBZ.
If any of the series can be criticized for "too many transformations" it is DBZ and not DBS. Dragon Ball Z's transformations were a big part of it and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" applies here when it comes to DBS
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