Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:35 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:Well, you're right on that, most people throw around the word canon while forgetting about its actual meaning, like it's some sort of seal of approval. But, I think that Super is considered canon because its foundations are born from Toriyama's head, unlike with GT.
Thats usually how I pick up on it, when you mention GT in comparison to Super or Z and people immediately say "its not canon" in terms to discredit it or anything related to it by default in discussion. Like using GT for anything is a fallacy to them. Thats what i mean.

Where as, I honestly think Toei only went to Toriyama for their seal of approval. They know fans take work more seriously if it comes from the creator and has a manga. Its the law of this fandom as well. GT didn't have a manga so the prejudice of it being TV only is why the "its not canon" dismissal comes up. People also believing that Toriyama has more to do with Super than GT is also where the bias comes in. The claims that Toriyama did nothing on GT akin to Evolution but is somehow writing the Super anime (yes there are people who think that). However Super is in that strange case where people don't use the fact it has a manga to legitimize it because the anime comes out first, thus people treat the anime as if it is the base canon, when they bash the manga (or those people that just side with the anime simply because of it having their hype where the manga doesn't).
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dragono » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:37 am

Lord Beerus wrote:It doesn't matter what period you set Dragon Ball after the Majin Boo arc, as long as the cast have two sets of wish granting MacGuffins that negate any consequences brought upon to them by any given conflict, tension will never reach the same level it was prior to the cast going to Namek.
Which is why the shadow dragon arc was stupid. We can always just use the Namek balls or Dende can get off his butt and make new ones.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dragono » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:42 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:Well, you're right on that, most people throw around the word canon while forgetting about its actual meaning, like it's some sort of seal of approval. But, I think that Super is considered canon because its foundations are born from Toriyama's head, unlike with GT.
Thats usually how I pick up on it, when you mention GT in comparison to Super or Z and people immediately say "its not canon" in terms to discredit it or anything related to it by default in discussion. Like using GT for anything is a fallacy to them. Thats what i mean.

Where as, I honestly think Toei only went to Toriyama for their seal of approval
. They know fans take work more seriously if it comes from the creator and has a manga. Its the law of this fandom as well. GT didn't have a manga so the prejudice of it being TV only is why the "its not canon" dismissal comes up. People also believing that Toriyama has more to do with Super than GT is also where the bias comes in. The claims that Toriyama did nothing on GT akin to Evolution but is somehow writing the Super anime (yes there are people who think that). However Super is in that strange case where people don't use the fact it has a manga to legitimize it because the anime comes out first, thus people treat the anime as if it is the base canon, when they bash the manga (or those people that just side with the anime simply because of it having their hype where the manga doesn't).
Toei went to Toriyama because they had 2 failed Dragon ball series under their belt and Toriyma's works were far more successful.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:52 am

Dragono wrote:Toei went to Toriyama because they had 2 failed Dragon ball series under their belt and Toriyma's works were far more successful.
Two? They just had GT and the only reason it failed because they couldn't market it at the time. Super is in a different time. People saying they cried seeing their childhood back on TV and in theaters when BOG came out, so the bias to defend Super regardless and buy its merchandise is there. Super's only success is marketing, it as a product is objectively mediocre.
Dragono wrote:No, people say GT isn't canon because like the movies, it was written by Toei, not Toriyama. It has nothing to do with quality. DRagon ball minus is canon and thats why so many people hate it because its official . Ressurection F is canon and thats why so many hate it because its official.

You could argue that GT is canon to the anime of Z but Super and Toriyama have made it downright impossible for it to exist.
You're talking about the technicality of production credit, I'm referring to the logic of the fandom in casual discussion. Toriyama doesn't have anything to do with the anime, most mangaka if not none of them ever do. GT is an extension of Toei's adaption of the anime with Toriyama setting the premise. Super is no different. Super is only considered canon right now, because it is the presently focused one. They ended GT and let it be. GT lacked the marketing Super has advantage in for various reasons I said influenced it. People have a quality bias from that, when they argue which is more legitimate.

People hate minus because it is far inferior to what people liked from the Bardock Special, and ROF was in retrospect a bland nothing movie like Bio-Broly. It was only recently people could objectively look at DB, then again people in general don't like retcons 20 years after they accept something. Not to mention, you can ignore Minus and change nothing as all Bardock marketing is based on the special and Episode of Bardock. Minus has been pretty irrelevant anyway. ROF has nothing to fanboy over because what little it was; is what people see as not making any sense in it's premise.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dragono » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:04 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Dragono wrote:Toei went to Toriyama because they had 2 failed Dragon ball series under their belt and Toriyma's works were far more successful.
Two? They just had GT and the only reason it failed because they couldn't market it at the time. Super is in a different time. People saying they cried seeing their childhood back on TV and in theaters when BOG came out, so the bias to defend Super regardless and buy its merchandise is there. Super's only success is marketing, it as a product is objectively mediocre.
Dragono wrote:No, people say GT isn't canon because like the movies, it was written by Toei, not Toriyama. It has nothing to do with quality. DRagon ball minus is canon and thats why so many people hate it because its official . Ressurection F is canon and thats why so many hate it because its official.

You could argue that GT is canon to the anime of Z but Super and Toriyama have made it downright impossible for it to exist.
You're talking about the technicality of production credit, I'm referring to the logic of the fandom in casual discussion. Toriyama doesn't have anything to do with the anime, most mangaka if not none of them ever do. GT is an extension of Toei's adaption of the anime with Toriyama setting the premise. Super is no different. Super is only considered canon right now, because it is the presently focused one. They ended GT and let it be. GT lacked the marketing Super has advantage in for various reasons I said influenced it. People have a quality bias from that, when they argue which is more legitimate.

People hate minus because it is far inferior to what people liked from the Bardock Special, and ROF was in retrospect a bland nothing movie like Bio-Broly. It was only recently people could objectively look at DB, then again people in general don't like retcons 20 years after they accept something. Not to mention, you can ignore Minus and change nothing as all Bardock marketing is based on the special and Episode of Bardock. Minus has been pretty irrelevant anyway. ROF has nothing to fanboy over because what little it was; is what people see as not making any sense in it's premise.
Kai also failed and The reason why GT failed was because people were tired of dragon ball and GT brought nothing new to the table to keep them invested. Its why episode 5 onward the ratings started top fall with episode 21 being the lowest. It had nothing to do with quality but don't say Toei didn't market it when the only reason super saiyan 4 became a thing was because people were pissed about Goku being turned into a kid so they were definitely paying attention.

Toriyama does have something to do with the anime, WE HAVE INTERVIEWS THAT SAY SO!!! He does character designs and plot outlines for all of the major arcs. Toriyama only did stuff in the black star arc and those were only setting character designs and he chose the timeframe, he had nothing to do with baby, super 17 or the shadow dragons Which is basically what he did for the movies. He has nothing to do with the transformation of super saiyan 4 or anything specifically because most arcs were based of toei filler and the dude rarely takes that stuff as inspiration.


Oh yeah, those works are not good. But the only get more hate because Toriyama wrote them. People have called minus the worst short story and Ressurection F the worst movie.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Dragono wrote: Kai also failed and The reason why GT failed was because people were tired of dragon ball and GT brought nothing new to the table to keep them invested.
No, Kai failed in Japan because it was redundant to Japanese fans, and that they didn't like the replaced actors. It makes sense if they didn't need a redub just to cut filler. They always had and understood the original manga, and anime. Not to mention, Kai's remastering wasn't considered to be that big. Especially in the earlier parts, then it got ugly in the Buu arc. To them, it was no different to what we would consider a cheap cash-grab. GT failed because people were tired of DB from the Buu Saga including Toriyama. He didn't want to go on anymore. Toei did. It wasn't that it brought nothing new. The first arc of GT was also the worst, but it was no different from the bad movie adaptions of Super. The only difference is timeframe. Super proved DB was still marketable after a decade, but their production still repeats the same dub choices. Both series had shitty opening arcs. Both series took dips in ratings here and there. One sells more.
Dragono wrote: Its why episode 5 onward the ratings started top fall with episode 21 being the lowest. It had nothing to do with quality but don't say Toei didn't market it when the only reason super saiyan 4 became a thing was because people were pissed about Goku being turned into a kid so they were definitely paying attention.
You don't know if direct reception influenced that. SS4 had a lot more plot weight to it than a simple retcon, and Goku only fights as a SS4 in GT. Hes still a kid.
Dragono wrote:Toriyama does have something to do with the anime, WE HAVE INTERVIEWS THAT SAY SO!!! He does character designs and plot outlines and the dude rarely takes that stuff as inspiration.
Big deal, he gave them premise ideas and designs. He did the same thing for the start of GT as well. He doesn't so anything with the actual writing of the anime, which is what I'm referring to. He has generally done that until BOG where he had more creative influence, then ROF he actually did more with the ideas.
Dragono wrote:Oh yeah, those works are not good. But the only get more hate because Toriyama wrote them. People have called minus the worst short story and Ressurection F the worst movie.
People don't hate them because its Toriyama, people usually assume everything bad comes from Toei first. People hate Minus because it changes what people already accepted with a lesser storyline, dumbs down the events and is now identical to Superman, the old special was much more abstract with. Toriyama also didn't do EOB, people dislike that because it overpromotes Bardock past his character significance in the special. Legitimate criticism.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dragono » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:41 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Dragono wrote: Kai also failed and The reason why GT failed was because people were tired of dragon ball and GT brought nothing new to the table to keep them invested.
No, Kai failed in Japan because it was redundant to Japanese fans, and that they didn't like the replaced actors. It makes sense if they didn't need a redub just to cut filler. They always had and understood the original manga, and anime. Not to mention, Kai's remastering wasn't considered to be that big. Especially in the earlier parts, then it got ugly in the Buu arc. To them, it was no different to what we would consider a cheap cash-grab. GT failed because people were tired of DB from the Buu Saga including Toriyama. He didn't want to go on anymore. Toei did. It wasn't that it brought nothing new. The first arc of GT was also the worst, but it was no different from the bad movie adaptions of Super. The only difference is timeframe. Super proved DB was still marketable after a decade, but their production still repeats the same dub choices. Both series had shitty opening arcs. Both series took dips in ratings here and there. One sells more.
Dragono wrote: Its why episode 5 onward the ratings started top fall with episode 21 being the lowest. It had nothing to do with quality but don't say Toei didn't market it when the only reason super saiyan 4 became a thing was because people were pissed about Goku being turned into a kid so they were definitely paying attention.
You don't know if direct reception influenced that. SS4 had a lot more plot weight to it than a simple retcon, and Goku only fights as a SS4 in GT. Hes still a kid.
Dragono wrote:Toriyama does have something to do with the anime, WE HAVE INTERVIEWS THAT SAY SO!!! He does character designs and plot outlines and the dude rarely takes that stuff as inspiration.
Big deal, he gave them premise ideas and designs. He did the same thing for the start of GT as well. He doesn't so anything with the actual writing of the anime, which is what I'm referring to. He has generally done that until BOG where he had more creative influence, then ROF he actually did more with the ideas.
Dragono wrote:Oh yeah, those works are not good. But the only get more hate because Toriyama wrote them. People have called minus the worst short story and Ressurection F the worst movie.
People don't hate them because its Toriyama, people usually assume everything bad comes from Toei first. People hate Minus because it changes what people already accepted with a lesser storyline, dumbs down the events and is now identical to Superman, the old special was much more abstract with. Toriyama also didn't do EOB, people dislike that because it overpromotes Bardock past his character significance in the special. Legitimate criticism.
The black star was not the worst part and you know it. its all super 17.The Black star arc was just the most boring and really lame. I don't remember a single planet in that arc and I doubt many could.

There is a very big difference between giving premise ideas and writing out the outline of the plot.

He tells them yes or no, if toei wants something and toriyama doesn't its not happening, but he is a pretty lax dude..

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Saturnine » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:14 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: Thats usually how I pick up on it, when you mention GT in comparison to Super or Z and people immediately say "its not canon" in terms to discredit it or anything related to it by default in discussion. Like using GT for anything is a fallacy to them. Thats what i mean.
Well then you've got the wrong impression. It's more like "GT sucks, but luckily it's not canon so we don't need to care". GT not being canon makes it easier for those who dislike the show to cope, because in their eyes (and rightly so) they don't need to dwell on their disappointment with a show that needn't count at all.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Saturnine » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:03 am

Dragono wrote: Which is why the shadow dragon arc was stupid. We can always just use the Namek balls or Dende can get off his butt and make new ones.
The Shadow Dragon arc was stupid for more reasons than just this, I particularly felt that Earth's DBs don't justify the dragons being so powerful, considering that Shenron itself got offed by someone as weak as King Piccolo back in the day. The ending didn't make much sense either, with Shenron taking the reins and making a decision for the Dragonballs, while it was Dende's to make (the creator of the damn things).

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by ulisa » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:29 pm

Honestly, I have never understood the aversion to having adventures after the end of Z. From what I understand, Toriyama claims the characters are too old but I never really saw that issue. As a writer, you can pretty much make your characters do whatever you want. Plus, with the concept of the Dragon, giving characters back their youth really isn't a problem (and honestly, if this is a series that has an Immortality Elixir, it really isn't much of a stretch to think there's something else that can turn back the clock.) but I never saw the characters being older a problem. I would love to see a grown Trunks, Goten, Gohan interacting with Goku, Vegeta, Krillin, etc. and Pan as she grows. If anything, I think them being older could open a whole new adventure. When you're restrained by a specific time period, that gives you limitations which is one problem I think Super has.

Personally, I would love to see alternate timelines of the Dragonball series. We know that Trunks' timeline is one and I wouldn't mind seeing others. The movies seem to have been described by most fans as being in alternate timelines (as they don't fit well into canon) and I'd love visiting the timelines where the movies take place and seeing how things pan out.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:18 am

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:
Dragono wrote:Toei went to Toriyama because they had 2 failed Dragon ball series under their belt and Toriyma's works were far more successful.
Two? They just had GT and the only reason it failed because they couldn't market it at the time. Super is in a different time. People saying they cried seeing their childhood back on TV and in theaters when BOG came out, so the bias to defend Super regardless and buy its merchandise is there. Super's only success is marketing, it as a product is objectively mediocre.
It is literally impossible for DBS to be "as a product objectively mediocre" there is no measuring stick for quality, everything about DBS varies from people to people, music, animation, plot etc even the infamous #5 is subjective at the end of the day. Objectives things about DBS are things like "it has 131 episodes, 11 different endings" ie things that cannot be argued.

People love to spout the "it's only success is marketing" well then it is pretty obvious that people like the show otherwise it they wouldn't support it would they? And the use of "only" implies it is not a good thing? Come on now.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Timetraveller » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:45 am

Saturnine wrote:
Dragono wrote: Which is why the shadow dragon arc was stupid. We can always just use the Namek balls or Dende can get off his butt and make new ones.
The Shadow Dragon arc was stupid for more reasons than just this, I particularly felt that Earth's DBs don't justify the dragons being so powerful, considering that Shenron itself got offed by someone as weak as King Piccolo back in the day. The ending didn't make much sense either, with Shenron taking the reins and making a decision for the Dragonballs, while it was Dende's to make (the creator of the damn things).
It's just part of the story. Can't have Goku fighting King Piccolo level villains so villains are introduced stronger than the last and some characters get undeserved unexplained power ups. I still don't understand how 17 got so strong fight poachers or Roshi got stronger than Tien by sitting on his couch all day watching aerobics. Or how Frieza went from below ssj level to ssb level in the span of 3 months. That still makes me laugh to this day (at how little they thought it through)

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Saturnine » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:27 am

Yep, but with these things you can at least suspend your disbelief, and with the shadow dragons the premise itself is flawed. I think they would have worked as villains between Raditz and Vegeta, but that's pretty much it.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:51 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:Super as a product is objectively mediocre.
It is literally impossible for DBS to be "as a product objectively mediocre" there is no measuring stick for quality.
It isn't objective as something you can count but there's always a standard of quality you expect of things (movies, games, anime, appliances, electronics, etc.) and it pains me to say as a huge DB fan that Super hasn't lived up to the standards set since the manga's ending back in 95. I'll go as far as to say it hasn't even lived up to the standards set by its predecessor, the original DB and its anime adaptions.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by totheark » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:17 am

sintzu wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:Super as a product is objectively mediocre.
It is literally impossible for DBS to be "as a product objectively mediocre" there is no measuring stick for quality.
It isn't objective as something you can count but there's always a standard of quality you expect of things (movies, games, anime, appliances, electronics, etc.) and it pains me to say as a huge DB fan that Super hasn't lived up to the standards set since the manga's ending back in 95. I'll go as far as to say it hasn't even lived up to the standards set by its predecessor, the original DB and its anime adaptions.
Okay, but that's still not objectivity, it's subjective.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:25 am

totheark wrote:Okay, but that's still not objectivity, it's subjective.
You can play with words and be technical all you want but that doesn't change the fact that there's a standard people expect from anime today that Super has not lived up to. Whenever something is released it's measured to the standards set at the time so why is Super different ? why can Super be the only thing that doesn't have to live up to standards ?
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:38 am

sintzu wrote:
totheark wrote:Okay, but that's still not objectivity, it's subjective.
It is objective, there is an objective standard people expect from things today that Super has factually not lived up to. Whenever something is released it's measured to the standards set at the time so why is Super different ? why can Super be the only thing that doesn't have to live up to standards ?
You are missing the point, standards people set differ from person to person. Not everyone has the same set of expectations which is why your electronics example is flawed. Electronics have to work and do their job otherwise they're faulty but that's nothing like anime, the standards are up to the person setting them.

Example, some people want blood in DBS and so that didn't live up to their standard... But people like myself don't care about blood so the lack of blood doesn't affect their standards. See the difference? It's not objective at all. It's not like being sent a broken phone in the mail.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dbzk1999 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:01 pm

sintzu wrote:
totheark wrote:Okay, but that's still not objectivity, it's subjective.
You can play with words and be technical all you want but that doesn't change the fact that there's a standard people expect from anime today that Super has not lived up to. Whenever something is released it's measured to the standards set at the time so why is Super different ? why can Super be the only thing that doesn't have to live up to standards ?
You’re saying this as if everybody has the exact same standards for things, which is fr from being the case.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Logania » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:42 pm

A lot of weird examples and analogys going on right now...

General issue of quality in a product can be put as objective. People's expectations and their personal standard of something doesn't really matter.

Whether Super is objectively mediorce, great, bad doesn't really matter to me on this. What does matter is that the quality of a product CAN be objective. You ain't gonna tell me Dragon Ball Evolution isn't a bad movie objectively, and if you DO and think "well, some people still enjoyed it, their standards aren't the same as other people, so it can't truly be objective" or something of the sort is madness.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Exline » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:26 pm

What if we just got a full DBZ reboot?

I would like that. Hopefully it would fix all the problems this series already has. They could add more to the arcs that lack story, like the Saiyan Arc and Frieza Saga.

They could fix so many plot holes and mistakes and maybe all DB fans would appreciate it.

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