Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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sintzu
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by sintzu » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:29 pm

Exline wrote:What if we just got a full DBZ reboot ?
The closest thing I want to a reboot is the anime getting a seasonal remake that covers the original manga form start to finish.
Dbzk1999 wrote:You’re saying this as if everybody has the exact same standards for things, which is for from being the case.
Like I said before, you can play with words and try to twist things all you want but that doesn't change the fact that Super hasn't lived up to what's been set in these last 20 years.
Logania wrote:What does matter is that the quality of a product CAN be objective. You ain't gonna tell me Dragon Ball Evolution isn't a bad movie objectively, and if you DO and think "well, some people still enjoyed it, their standards aren't the same as other people, so it can't truly be objective" or something of the sort is madness.
The whoe "everything is subjective" is just to not offend people who like things that aren't that good so instead of saying "you may like it but it's still bad" you see things like "there's no such thing as good or bad, everything is up to the individual".
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dbzk1999 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:19 am

Mate, that’s not playing with words

Here’s what I ask, why don’t you tell us what these “standards” are? Please, tell us what these “objective” standards are that doesn’t come down to being opinion based.

Technical-based is understandable though

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:50 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:Why don’t you tell us what these “standards” are? Please, tell us what these “objective” standards are ?
Haven't you seen anything Shonen related other than DB ? If you have then you know what I'm talking about and are just trying to cover up Super's shortcomings with the whole "everything is subjective" nonsense and if not then go watch something like 2011's HunterXHunter as that was a weekly shonen with nearly the same amount of episodes super had (146). You've also got the original Naruto which is 135 episodes (the rest up till 220 are filler).
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Dbzk1999 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:10 am

sintzu wrote:Haven't you seen anything Shonen related other than DB ? If you have then you know what I'm talking about and are just trying to cover up Super's shortcomings with the whole "everything is subjective" nonsense and if not then go watch something like 2011's HunterXHunter as that was a weekly shonen with nearly the same amount of episodes super had (146). You've also got the original Naruto which is 135 episodes (the rest up till 220 are filler).
So, are you going to actually answer my question? Cause all you’re doing is constant deflection right now. And no dip I’ve seen shonen other than dragon ball, so why don’t you stop with the stupid assumptions and actually answer my question.

And stop assuming I’m trying to “cover up super’s shortcomings”, that’s asinine

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by sintzu » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:54 am

Dbzk1999 wrote:All you’re doing is constant deflection right now.

Stop assuming I’m trying to “cover up super’s shortcomings”, that’s asinine.
Isn't that what you and others do when Super is called out on something ? trying to pretend there's no standards for qaulity ? When you say there's no standard for quality, does that mean a movie like Superman 4 : the quest for peace (I think that's what it's called) would be a good movie if made today with the exact same issues despite there being movies like the avengers setting the bar so high ? can you honestly say that based on what the comic movie genre is today, that that's a good movie ?

What are you doing then ? saying there's no measure of quality when something's issues are called out pretty much implies you're trying to cover them up.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:36 pm

Super in general is a mistake. :P
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:24 pm

Timetraveller wrote:
Saturnine wrote:
Dragono wrote: Which is why the shadow dragon arc was stupid. We can always just use the Namek balls or Dende can get off his butt and make new ones.
The Shadow Dragon arc was stupid for more reasons than just this, I particularly felt that Earth's DBs don't justify the dragons being so powerful, considering that Shenron itself got offed by someone as weak as King Piccolo back in the day. The ending didn't make much sense either, with Shenron taking the reins and making a decision for the Dragonballs, while it was Dende's to make (the creator of the damn things).
It's just part of the story. Can't have Goku fighting King Piccolo level villains so villains are introduced stronger than the last and some characters get undeserved unexplained power ups. I still don't understand how 17 got so strong fight poachers or Roshi got stronger than Tien by sitting on his couch all day watching aerobics Or how Frieza went from below ssj level to ssb level in the span of 3 months.That still makes me laugh to this day (at how little they thought it through)
I agree :lol: But it's a classic Toriyama ass-grab kind of thing, way I see it. Like when you had Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan as little 8 year old kids. Also Toriyama never bothered much with explanations.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Saturnine » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:59 am

Well I can't put my finger on why, but the shadow dragons bother me more stikl. I just can't roll with how they were portrayed and how Toei tried to make us believe they are the ultimate enemy, stronger than any that came before, and an universal threat above Buu. Their origins simply don't justify such power.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Logania » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:45 am

I think the only problem I have with the Shadow Dragons is the concept of the balls collecting dark energy.

In Dragon Ball, Kami was deciding whether or not humanity should be deemed worthy to use them as they all seek to wish for selfish desires like immortality, rule the earth...teenage panties, which makes sense as to why that would give the Dragon Ball some dark energy because of the impure wishes that would be cast with them. Yet he decided to let the Dragon Balls stay due to Goku's purehearted uses he did with them, but those wishes STILL cause dark energy to be stored in the Dragon Balls??

It just doesn't make sense for me why that would be the case. Didn't know wanting to save people and restore the Earth for the better would be putting some darkness in them balls. Why would Kami even keep them around if ANYTHING you wish with them will eventually cause the darkness to be cast on the Earth? He should've known about it, he made the damn things.

I know basically everything I'm saying is headcanon and just blind ranting, but it's just a weird concept for the Dragon Balls to me.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Saturnine » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:16 am

Logania wrote:I think the only problem I have with the Shadow Dragons is the concept of the balls collecting dark energy.

In Dragon Ball, Kami was deciding whether or not humanity should be deemed worthy to use them as they all seek to wish for selfish desires like immortality, rule the earth...teenage panties, which makes sense as to why that would give the Dragon Ball some dark energy because of the impure wishes that would be cast with them. Yet he decided to let the Dragon Balls stay due to Goku's purehearted uses he did with them, but those wishes STILL cause dark energy to be stored in the Dragon Balls??

It just doesn't make sense for me why that would be the case. Didn't know wanting to save people and restore the Earth for the better would be putting some darkness in them balls. Why would Kami even keep them around if ANYTHING you wish with them will eventually cause the darkness to be cast on the Earth? He should've known about it, he made the damn things.

I know basically everything I'm saying is headcanon and just blind ranting, but it's just a weird concept for the Dragon Balls to me.
I think this premise was a follow-up of the warning by Old Kaioshin that was issued in Z. I don't remember whether that was filler or canon though. Given Toei's as-of-then penchant of developing and referencing their original ideas (ie. non-Toriyama ones), I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was a filler quote.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Exline » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:07 am

What do you guys think of could have been done with the cast of EoZ?

As much as I would enjoy the idea of it, it sounds harder to deal with because by that point, everyone has become so old, barring Piccolo's Eternal Youth and the Saiyan's impressive longevity to fight longer.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Meshack » Fri May 11, 2018 6:38 pm

Having tension doesn't really matter. It's what actually happens is what makes it great. If the Majin-Boo Arc was created today, there would be no tension because we know in the Hakaishin Beerus Arc that everyone is okay. It's also like a new Dragon Ball fan starts watching from the beginning but they know there's Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball Super. It doesn't take away the impact of what happens in Super.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sat May 12, 2018 7:59 pm

Exline wrote:What do you guys think of could have been done with the cast of EoZ?

As much as I would enjoy the idea of it, it sounds harder to deal with because by that point, everyone has become so old, barring Piccolo's Eternal Youth and the Saiyan's impressive longevity to fight longer.

You could have inserted just battle of gods. Then skip to EOZ and explain Vegeta and Goku are still young because God Ki does that in this scenario and they had been training with Beerus/Whis.

Needs some minor changes to EOZ to work maybe but eh.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by ZeroNeonix » Tue May 15, 2018 9:31 am

Was there ever really any doubt that things would turn out alright in Dragon Ball? This isn't Game of Thrones where your favorite characters can permanently die without warning. You know the good guys are always going to win, and whoever dies is going to be revived with the Dragon Balls. You don't need EoZ to tell you that.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by JulieYBM » Tue May 15, 2018 1:17 pm

I think the real mistake is placing too much stock in the idea of consequence being the main form of entertainment for Dragon Ball Super. Ultimately, even the original comic was rarely heavy in favor of consequence, so in that respect Dragon Ball Super feels very much like Dragon Ball.
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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by HeroR » Tue May 15, 2018 3:00 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote:Was there ever really any doubt that things would turn out alright in Dragon Ball? This isn't Game of Thrones where your favorite characters can permanently die without warning. You know the good guys are always going to win, and whoever dies is going to be revived with the Dragon Balls. You don't need EoZ to tell you that.
Unless you're Future Trunks who lost his entire timeline.
JulieYBM wrote:I think the real mistake is placing too much stock in the idea of consequence being the main form of entertainment for Dragon Ball Super. Ultimately, even the original comic was rarely heavy in favor of consequence, so in that respect Dragon Ball Super feels very much like Dragon Ball.

That is my feeling as well. Consequences, at least long-term consequences, have never been a thing in Dragon Ball. Like, did you really believe back in Z that everyone who died during the Saiyan Saga wouldn't return or Krillin was Killed For Real on Namek? I mean, for all the talk about Super being a midquel with no consequences, it has the only arc in the franchise where things weren't fixed by the end and you can argued that many characters were worst off when it was all said and done.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Staging DBS as a midquel was a big mistake

Post by Meshack » Wed May 16, 2018 2:30 am

HeroR wrote:
ZeroNeonix wrote:Was there ever really any doubt that things would turn out alright in Dragon Ball? This isn't Game of Thrones where your favorite characters can permanently die without warning. You know the good guys are always going to win, and whoever dies is going to be revived with the Dragon Balls. You don't need EoZ to tell you that.
Unless you're Future Trunks who lost his entire timeline.
JulieYBM wrote:I think the real mistake is placing too much stock in the idea of consequence being the main form of entertainment for Dragon Ball Super. Ultimately, even the original comic was rarely heavy in favor of consequence, so in that respect Dragon Ball Super feels very much like Dragon Ball.

That is my feeling as well. Consequences, at least long-term consequences, have never been a thing in Dragon Ball. Like, did you really believe back in Z that everyone who died during the Saiyan Saga wouldn't return or Krillin was Killed For Real on Namek? I mean, for all the talk about Super being a midquel with no consequences, it has the only arc in the franchise where things weren't fixed by the end and you can argued that many characters were worst off when it was all said and done.
Why do people keep using the word “timeline”? A timeline is a sequence of events. Trunks lost his entire world.

I could say there wasn’t really any consequences at all since the original comic was just one story - not separated into DB and DBZ. You always knew the Dragon Balls were gonna come in play. In the last chapter, the narrator even says that (Toriyama later changed it) everything was gonna be okay because of the Dragon Balls. (paraphrased, obviously)

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