Does UI Omen/Complete UI Goku have God Ki?

[OLKv3]

Then mere mortals like Tien and Roshi could read on the evolution of Goku when in UI? So they all of a sudden are able to do this, but fail to do it along the whole series' progression? Not only that, but they are able to sense AND accurately predict Goku power increases?

Trunks was able to sense SSB Vegetto's ki. Piccolo and Roshi were able to sense how different Vegeta's ki was when he transformed into Beyond Blue or whatever it's called.
Toei clearly stopped caring about the god ki rule. Like a lot of things in DBS, it depends on who's writing the episode

Which Trunks?
Future Trunks wasn't able to do so in episode 54 when Vegeta showed Trunks Blue. He remarked that he couldn't feel Vegeta's energy any more, just a remarkable pressure, same was true for Piccolo when Goku went Blue in episode 71 and with Kuririn in episode 84.

Future Trunks during the Zamasu vs Vegetto battle in episode 66. He mentions how incredible Vegetto's energy is
Roshi is amazed by Vegeta's energy when he first transforms into his new SSBE form, and Piccolo talks about how different his energy feels

[JazzMazz]

Trunks was able to sense SSB Vegetto's ki. Piccolo and Roshi were able to sense how different Vegeta's ki was when he transformed into Beyond Blue or whatever it's called.
Toei clearly stopped caring about the god ki rule. Like a lot of things in DBS, it depends on who's writing the episode

Which Trunks?
Future Trunks wasn't able to do so in episode 54 when Vegeta showed Trunks Blue. He remarked that he couldn't feel Vegeta's energy any more, just a remarkable pressure, same was true for Piccolo when Goku went Blue in episode 71 and with Kuririn in episode 84.

Future Trunks during the Zamasu vs Vegetto battle in episode 66. He mentions how incredible Vegetto's energy is
Roshi is amazed by Vegeta's energy when he first transforms into his new SSBE form, and Piccolo talks about how different his energy feels

Personally, I don't think they could feel Goku and Vegeta's energy in the typical sense in those forms, but more, by the sort of pressure they emitted in those forms(which is pretty consistent with everything we're told about them).

[Mister_Popo]

That's correct. When Goku was fighting Jiren first round, i thought they were able to sense he was improving while using UI Omen. If he was using God-Ki, normally only divine beings would be able to sense that. God-Ki equals absolute Ki-control. How can you go beyond that? UI might be some different energy source (different type of Ki?) altogether. The fact they could sense the power was rising, could have been something to do with the heat Goku was radiating when he was using UI. In that case it doesn't have to be a reference he was not using God-KI. It's not entirely clear, i think we still have (a lot) more to discover about UI.

Generally, when characters are referring to Goku's use of God Ki, they either mention its immense pressure when they're mortals who can't sense it, or they mention its similarity to the Ki of actual gods by said gods and/or mortals who can sense God Ki.

The only reference to Ultra Instinct Goku in a remotely similar vein is how gods struggle to learn it, as well as how godly it is in its usage; these aren't specific enough to really conclude that the form utilizes the same kind of Ki as a god.

Yes. Non-divine creatures can only sense the immense pressure that is created by Ki not leaking out. They can't estime the exact 'realm of the power', or how it rises. One notable exception was Hit, he was able to sense how Goku was improving in Blue whilst using the Kaioken.

Mortals cannot use real 'Godly Ki'. They can only obtain an absolute form of Ki-control after prolonged training with a deity. But they can't for instance manipulate Ki into objects (Black) or use the Hakai like the true Gods can.

If Goku really acts without thinking when in UI, one could consider he controls his KI differently (on instinct rather than on thought) than Gods who don't have perfected UI.
Perfected UI is a higher state than the Gods, Goku does control his Ki but only on instinct, while the Gods still think (for a part).
This level of control (on instinct) could act differently in Sylver in comparison to Red and Blue (which is just an absolute form of Ki-control used by mortals who are thinking during the fight). So this might explain why it channels differently.

Both Blue Goku Kaioken 20 and the Gods still think during battle, and by doing so they don't open up their full potential. In a sense Goku didn't only break his own limitations, he broke the seeling of the Gods as well. This could explain the phrase 'the work of the Gods ends here'.

[ankokudaishogun]

use the Hakai like the true Gods can.

Manga Completed Blue and Anime GoD Toppo.

Which obviously brings up the question: WHAT is a God?

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Honestly, the concept of god ki in its entirety has become highly questionable because of terrible writing. But I'll bring this up anyway: in episode 54, Trunks noted how he was not able to sense Vegeta's god ki from the latter's Blue form, but he subsequently noted that the transformation let off an exorbitant amount of pressure (Vegeta also noted this tangible pressure from god ki in episode 22). Thus, god ki exudes a ton of pressure. And by what we saw with Trunks, those who do not have god ki can still feel the pressure coming from it, which explains nearly every case of a character without god ki seemingly being able to sense it. They instead felt god ki's pressure. This includes Goku's UI: Omen form. This includes Vegeta's SSGSS Evolution form. They both exude extortionate amounts of pressure.

Except, to poke a hole in my own argument, it doesn't explain how Hit was able to outright read and measure the multiplier of Goku's Blue Kaioken. Because again, bad writing.

It really goes to show that Toei's writers either didn't communicate well enough, chose to drop the concept, or just stopped giving a fuck altogether. These days I try not to think too much of it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Honestly, the concept of god ki in its entirety has become highly questionable because of terrible writing. But I'll bring this up anyway: in episode 54, Trunks noted how he was not able to sense Vegeta's god ki from the latter's Blue form, but he subsequently noted that the transformation let off an exorbitant amount of pressure (Vegeta also noted this tangible pressure from god ki in episode 22). Thus, god ki exudes a ton of pressure. And by what we saw with Trunks, those who do not have god ki can still feel the pressure coming from it, which explains nearly every case of a character without god ki seemingly being able to sense it. They instead felt god ki's pressure. This includes Goku's UI: Omen form. This includes Vegeta's SSGSS Evolution form. They both exude extortionate amounts of pressure.

Except, to poke a hole in my own argument, it doesn't explain how Hit was able to outright read and measure the multiplier of Goku's Blue Kaioken. Because again, bad writing.

It really goes to show that Toei's writers either didn't communicate well enough, chose to drop the concept, or just stopped giving a fuck altogether. These days I try not to think too much of it.

That is because he was using KK it has nothing to do with god ki, once Goku went SSGSSKKx1 Hit obviously could then sense the KK power up (separate from SSGSS) and thus when Goku increased it he could then measure and notice the increase of the KK.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

That is because he was using KK it has nothing to do with god ki, once Goku went SSGSSKKx1 Hit obviously could then sense the KK power up (separate from SSGSS) and thus when Goku increased it he could then measure and notice the increase of the KK.

I... have no idea how or where from what episode you reached that conclusion. In the 109-110 special, Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan were not able to tell which Blue Kaioken multiplier Goku was using against Jiren until Beerus and Whis noted it to be Blue Kaioken x20 to them, so your argument falls flat here.

And then there’s Hit, who doesn’t have any confirmation of possessing god ki, somehow being able to tell several episodes prior. It doesn’t make any sense. Inconsistent writing at its finest.

[Low Tone G]

That is because he was using KK it has nothing to do with god ki, once Goku went SSGSSKKx1 Hit obviously could then sense the KK power up (separate from SSGSS) and thus when Goku increased it he could then measure and notice the increase of the KK.

I... have no idea how or where from what episode you reached that conclusion. In the 109-110 special, Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan were not able to tell which Blue Kaioken multiplier Goku was using against Jiren until Beerus and Whis noted it to be Blue Kaioken x20 to them, so your argument falls flat here.

And then there’ss Hit, who doesn’t have any confirmation of possessing god ki, somehow being able to tell several episodes prior. It doesn’t make any sense. Inconsistent writing at its finest.

Not only Hit, but Freeza isn't anywhere stated to become a God himself, still he directly reads on Blue Goku's power level, and even compares it with his own.

[ankokudaishogun]

Where is stated one HAS to have God Ki to SENSE God Ki? Dende doesn't have God Ki, that's sure!

If anything, the reverse would be more logic: sensing God Ki as first step to use God Ki.
Hit, Freeza and Trunks managing to get a feel on it isn't really that absurd.

[HeroR]

That is because he was using KK it has nothing to do with god ki, once Goku went SSGSSKKx1 Hit obviously could then sense the KK power up (separate from SSGSS) and thus when Goku increased it he could then measure and notice the increase of the KK.

I... have no idea how or where from what episode you reached that conclusion. In the 109-110 special, Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan were not able to tell which Blue Kaioken multiplier Goku was using against Jiren until Beerus and Whis noted it to be Blue Kaioken x20 to them, so your argument falls flat here.

And then there’ss Hit, who doesn’t have any confirmation of possessing god ki, somehow being able to tell several episodes prior. It doesn’t make any sense. Inconsistent writing at its finest.

Not only Hit, but Freeza isn't anywhere stated to become a God himself, still he directly reads on Blue Goku's power level, and even compares it with his own.

Mortals of a certain level can sense god ki. Vegeta was able to sense Whis in just his base form after training for six months in Resurrection ‘F’ and that was before he got Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. In fact, this was referenced by Whis when he stated that Goku and Vegeta can barely sense the realm of the gods and compared them to a small tree.

[Mister_Popo]

I... have no idea how or where from what episode you reached that conclusion. In the 109-110 special, Krillin, Roshi and Tenshinhan were not able to tell which Blue Kaioken multiplier Goku was using against Jiren until Beerus and Whis noted it to be Blue Kaioken x20 to them, so your argument falls flat here.

And then there’ss Hit, who doesn’t have any confirmation of possessing god ki, somehow being able to tell several episodes prior. It doesn’t make any sense. Inconsistent writing at its finest.

Not only Hit, but Freeza isn't anywhere stated to become a God himself, still he directly reads on Blue Goku's power level, and even compares it with his own.

Mortals of a certain level can sense god ki. Vegeta was able to sense Whis in just his base form after training for six months in Resurrection ‘F’ and that was before he got Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. In fact, this was referenced by Whis when he stated that Goku and Vegeta can barely sense the realm of the gods and compared them to a small tree.

That was the aim of Whis training, to learn God-Ki and ulitmately UI. Yes, there are mortals like Dende who can sense it without having it themselves. But in Gokus and Vegetas case it was a sign on the wall they were obtaining God-Ki, wouldn't you think? Being able to sense God-Ki is one of the main features of mastering it.

There is a difference of course between God-Ki and the power of a true God. As we've seen the difference Blue-GOD-UI. So mastering God-Ki is not the ultimate reference point of becoming God of Destruction-tier level.

[HeroR]

That was the aim of Whis training, to learn God-Ki and ulitmately UI. Yes, there are mortals like Dende who can sense it without having it themselves. But in Gokus and Vegetas case it was a sign on the wall they were obtaining God-Ki, wouldn't you think? Being able to sense God-Ki is one of the main features of mastering it.

There is a difference of course between God-Ki and the power of a true God. As we've seen the difference Blue-GOD-UI. So mastering God-Ki is not the ultimate reference point of becoming God of Destruction-tier level.

Except they displayed no god ki for months even after Goku joined Vegeta and Vegeta could still sense a being like Whis. In the same arc, Freeza without even going golden sense Goku's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form, showing us that only a certain level of power is needed.

[Mister_Popo]

That was the aim of Whis training, to learn God-Ki and ulitmately UI. Yes, there are mortals like Dende who can sense it without having it themselves. But in Gokus and Vegetas case it was a sign on the wall they were obtaining God-Ki, wouldn't you think? Being able to sense God-Ki is one of the main features of mastering it.

There is a difference of course between God-Ki and the power of a true God. As we've seen the difference Blue-GOD-UI. So mastering God-Ki is not the ultimate reference point of becoming God of Destruction-tier level.

Except they displayed no god ki for months even after Goku joined Vegeta and Vegeta could still sense a being like Whis. In the same arc, Freeza without even going golden sense Goku's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form, showing us that only a certain level of power is needed.

You need a very high level of Ki-control, Godly Ki or perfected Ki-control for mortals to sense true Godly Ki or a mortal who possesses a comparable ability. Freeza has a similar level of control in his Golden form, but he is no true God as well. Goku, Vegeta and Freeza are exceptions in a sense they are no real Gods, but in a sense they aren't because the level of control is comparable. They all had to work they way up to that level to experience that though.
If Golden Freeza can feel that kind of power, why would't Hit for instance be capable of doing that? He has timeskip, but he's Blue-tier-comparable level in TOP. It doesn't need to be bad writing.

Freeza is not the best exception story telling-wise, because he is comparable to Goku, but Dende in a sense is: he has no God-tier power level as a mortal, he can sense it because he is guardian of the earth.

[HeroR]

[


You need a very high level of Ki-control, Godly Ki or perfected Ki-control for mortals to sense true Godly Ki or a mortal who possesses a comparable ability. Freeza has a similar level of control in his Golden form, but he is no true God as well. Goku, Vegeta and Freeza are exceptions in a sense they are no real Gods, but in a sense they aren't because the level of control is comparable. They all had to work they way up to that level to experience that though.
If Golden Freeza can feel that kind of power, why would't Hit for instance be capable of doing that? He has timeskip, but he's Blue-tier-comparable level in TOP. It doesn't need to be bad writing.

Freeza is not the best exception story telling-wise, because he is comparable to Goku, but Dende in a sense is: he has no God-tier power level as a mortal, he can sense it because he is guardian of the earth.

No offense, but this is really headcanon since nothing like that was said within the anime. The best we got is that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has great ki control, nothing about god ki itself needing or having perfect ki control. For example, no such thing was said about Super Saiyan God outside of it being less draining that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, Freeza sense god ki in his true form, not just his golden form when he was talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Denda sensed god ki because he's officially a god and King Kai even said that a god can feel another god.

[Mister_Popo]

[


You need a very high level of Ki-control, Godly Ki or perfected Ki-control for mortals to sense true Godly Ki or a mortal who possesses a comparable ability. Freeza has a similar level of control in his Golden form, but he is no true God as well. Goku, Vegeta and Freeza are exceptions in a sense they are no real Gods, but in a sense they aren't because the level of control is comparable. They all had to work they way up to that level to experience that though.
If Golden Freeza can feel that kind of power, why would't Hit for instance be capable of doing that? He has timeskip, but he's Blue-tier-comparable level in TOP. It doesn't need to be bad writing.

Freeza is not the best exception story telling-wise, because he is comparable to Goku, but Dende in a sense is: he has no God-tier power level as a mortal, he can sense it because he is guardian of the earth.

No offense, but this is really headcanon since nothing like that was said within the anime. The best we got is that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has great ki control, nothing about god ki itself needing or having perfect ki control. For example, no such thing was said about Super Saiyan God outside of it being less draining that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, Freeza sense god ki in his true form, not just his golden form when he was talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Denda sensed god ki because he's officially a god and King Kai even said that a god can feel another god.

I don't think it was ever stated Goku or Vegeta really possess Godly Ki. They only have obtained a level of Ki-management that is comparable to divine beings, after prolonged training with a deity such as Whis (acquiring more strength and learning to control it without leakage, learning to sense other divine beings ...) but they don't actually possess the ability to tap into a reservoir of other Ki (Godly Ki like Black has because he is a real God).

You stated, if if read you correctly, that being able to sense divine beings is only about a certain level of power, but it doesn't need to be the case, as Dende is able to sense divine beings without having the power of Goku, Vegeta or a God of Destruction. That's what i meant. Normally it's accompanied with a lot more power. But it doesn't need to be the case.

[HeroR]

You're probably right about True form Freeza.
I don't think it was ever stated Goku or Vegeta really possess Godly Ki. They only have obtained a level of Ki-management that is comparable to divine beings, after prolonged training with a deity such as Whis (acquiring more strength and learning to control it without leakage, learning to sense other divine beings ...) but they don't actually possess the ability to tap into a reservoir of other Ki (Godly Ki), like for instance the Kais can.

You stated, if if read you correctly, being able to sense divine beings is about a certain level of power, but it doesn't need to be the case, as Dende is able to sense divine beings without having the power of Goku, Vegeta or a deity. That's what i meant. Normally it's accompanied with a lot more power. Yes. But it doesn't need to be the case.

They have god ki in their god forms, which is made clear several times. Even Black stated that the aura around Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is god ki and it's confirmed by Zamasu when he saw Goku fight on Godtube. There's nothing stating that there's different levels of god ki or different types of god ki. Only that the Saiyans cloak themselves in god ki and are not actual gods.

Denda is a god, which allows him to sense god ki. The same holds true with all the god characters. However, it was made a clear point in Battle of Gods that Goku couldn't sense Beerus despite his current power, yet after some training with Whis Vegeta could despite not having a god form at that time. We then have Freeza in his true form able to sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and make a comparison about their power. We had Hit who did the same thing and was able to count the multiple of Blue Kaioken. Future Trunks specifically couldn't sense god ki in 54, yet once he got his Super Saiyan Rage form, he sensed Vegito Blue's ki.

So using all this, it shows that mortals can sense divine ki if their have a certain level of power, but a god character can always sense divine ki regardless of their individual power.

[Mister_Popo]

You're probably right about True form Freeza.
I don't think it was ever stated Goku or Vegeta really possess Godly Ki. They only have obtained a level of Ki-management that is comparable to divine beings, after prolonged training with a deity such as Whis (acquiring more strength and learning to control it without leakage, learning to sense other divine beings ...) but they don't actually possess the ability to tap into a reservoir of other Ki (Godly Ki), like for instance the Kais can.

You stated, if if read you correctly, being able to sense divine beings is about a certain level of power, but it doesn't need to be the case, as Dende is able to sense divine beings without having the power of Goku, Vegeta or a deity. That's what i meant. Normally it's accompanied with a lot more power. Yes. But it doesn't need to be the case.

They have god ki in their god forms, which is made clear several times. Even Black stated that the aura around Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is god ki and it's confirmed by Zamasu when he saw Goku fight on Godtube. There's nothing stating that there's different levels of god ki or different types of god ki. Only that the Saiyans cloak themselves in god ki and are not actual gods.

Denda is a god, which allows him to sense god ki. The same holds true with all the god characters. However, it was made a clear point in Battle of Gods that Goku couldn't sense Beerus despite his current power, yet after some training with Whis Vegeta could despite not having a god form at that time. We then have Freeza in his true form able to sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and make a comparison about their power. We had Hit who did the same thing and was able to count the multiple of Blue Kaioken. Future Trunks specifically couldn't sense god ki in 54, yet once he got his Super Saiyan Rage form, he sensed Vegito Blue's ki.

So using all this, it shows that mortals can sense divine ki if their have a certain level of power, but a god character can always sense divine ki regardless of their individual power.

That's the reason why Black has a different aura, because he has true Godly Ki, he is a deity. The only thing Goku and Vegeta learned during Whis training apart from more strength, is more control. They first increased their strength massively, after that they learned to keep it all their Ki inside, which is way more efficient in battle. This technique combined with a SSJ-level-transformation, gives a massive increase involding into Blue, not Rose. Rose is a SSJ-transformation combined with true Godly Ki.

The reason why Gokus and Vegetas Blue state is called 'God-Ki' is metaphorical, it's to indicate they have a level of control / power that's comparable with the Gods in that state.

I personally don't think Goku nor Vegeta, mortals as they are at the end, have two pools of Ki (normal Ki and God-Ki) to their disposal. I only think they use their highest form of Ki-management, which is more draining, in Blue. But: this still happens with the mind. UI does not, so probably taps from a different more instinctly driven energy source.

[HeroR]

That's the reason why Black has a different aura, because he has true Godly Ki, he is a deity. The only thing Goku and Vegeta learned during Whis training apart from more strength, is more control. They first increased their strength massively, after that they learned to keep it all their Ki inside, which is way more efficient in battle. This technique combined with a SSJ-level-transformation, gives a massive increase involding into Blue, not Rose. Rose is a SSJ-transformation combined with true Godly Ki.

The reason why Gokus and Vegetas Blue state is called 'God-Ki' is metaphorical, it's to indicate they have a level of control / power that's comparable with the Gods in that state.

I personally don't think Goku nor Vegeta, mortals as they are at the end, have two pools of Ki (normal Ki and God-Ki) to their disposal. I only think they use their highest form of Ki-management, which is more draining, in Blue. But: this still happens with the mind. UI does not, so probably taps from a different more instinctly driven energy source.

Such a thing was only said in the Super manga, not anime, and even then base form Black didn't have god ki. What Goku and Vegeta got from training with Whis was not only more control, but also their god forms.

That is again headcanon that "Gokus and Vegetas Blue state is called 'God-Ki' is metaphorical". Present Zamasu stated in 57 that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has god ki, which really pissed him off and Black in 56 called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 'Saiyans cloaking themselves in divine ki'.

Control is important for all god and it was never stated that god ki atomically had more control than normal ki anyway.

[Mister_Popo]

That's the reason why Black has a different aura, because he has true Godly Ki, he is a deity. The only thing Goku and Vegeta learned during Whis training apart from more strength, is more control. They first increased their strength massively, after that they learned to keep it all their Ki inside, which is way more efficient in battle. This technique combined with a SSJ-level-transformation, gives a massive increase involding into Blue, not Rose. Rose is a SSJ-transformation combined with true Godly Ki.

The reason why Gokus and Vegetas Blue state is called 'God-Ki' is metaphorical, it's to indicate they have a level of control / power that's comparable with the Gods in that state.

I personally don't think Goku nor Vegeta, mortals as they are at the end, have two pools of Ki (normal Ki and God-Ki) to their disposal. I only think they use their highest form of Ki-management, which is more draining, in Blue. But: this still happens with the mind. UI does not, so probably taps from a different more instinctly driven energy source.

Such a thing was only said in the Super manga, not anime, and even then base form Black didn't have god ki. What Goku and Vegeta got from training with Whis was not only more control, but also their god forms.

That is again headcanon that "Gokus and Vegetas Blue state is called 'God-Ki' is metaphorical". Present Zamasu stated in 57 that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan has god ki, which really pissed him off and Black in 56 called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 'Saiyans cloaking themselves in divine ki'.

Control is important for all god and it was never stated that god ki atomically had more control than normal ki anyway.

It has nothing to do with headcanon. It's a matter of putting things in their perspective. If you like to call it 'God-Ki' for the ease of discussion or comparison, i have no problems with that. For that reason i can even understand why it's called that way. But i personally don't think it's exactly the same.

Btw Black was clearin' Blue Vegeta at one point in the anime in base, would have been from Zenkai-boosts alone? I don't think so. It was right before he went Rose.

[Low Tone G]

I personally think(it may be headcanon, of course) that Whis gave Goku and Vegeta the same kind of training which he has given to Beerus... Aka a God of Destruction training. Being that Goku and Vegeta are Saiyans, they got other "color" for their Devine Ki than the standard purple one, cuz' you know, Saiyans are special in every way.

Whis intentionally wants Beerus to master UI, so Beerus' training is not complete yet, like he himself mentions it to Goku and Vegeta when he first spoke about the UI in the Resurrection "F" arc.

So Whis'(and presumably all angels') G.O.D. training schedule is like:
1. Train to reach a certain power level which allows a mortal to sense Godly Ki
2. Train to attain Godly Ki
3. The mortal needs to make his mind to embrace destruction and the job of Hakaishin
4. Train to master complete UI to defeat every obstacles which might threaten himself and thus the balance of the Universe.

Please consider that Goku and Vegeta currently are in the second grade of training, Beerus is yet to complete the final, fourth stage, but Goku might have skipped the third one by having completed UI. And also, we already got evidence that a Saiyan with Blue can be on Destroyer level(at least on a beginner one) as Vegeta managed overpower Toppo with his SSBE.