Is Goku a hero in Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Lord Beerus » Wed May 02, 2018 9:49 am

TekTheNinja wrote:
TBMx wrote:DBS's version is not a hero in any modern understanding of the term. But he can be classed a hero like Achilles from Greek myth. Just a ridiculously OP warrior the story's about who's venerated by his peers.

Even characters like that had motivations and things to fight for. Goku in Super doesn't really care about anything or anyone if it doesn't amuse his battle obsession. He's by no means heroic in Super.

That is patently false. Goku on several occasions in Super has shown empathy to others, or at least understands the concept of empathy.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Cipher » Wed May 02, 2018 9:51 am

He's the same Toriyama protagonist we have in almost all his stories: a largely selfish person who, though their own drive and a basically good-natured outlook toward the world, manages to draw others toward them and provide momentum for some measure of good.

It's the same thing every time (not that it isn't delightful). Are they heroes? Does it matter? Can't the same traits both sometimes lead to altruistic actions, and other times avoidable disaster?

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Baggie_Saiyan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:54 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
TBMx wrote:DBS's version is not a hero in any modern understanding of the term. But he can be classed a hero like Achilles from Greek myth. Just a ridiculously OP warrior the story's about who's venerated by his peers.

Even characters like that had motivations and things to fight for. Goku in Super doesn't really care about anything or anyone if it doesn't amuse his battle obsession. He's by no means heroic in Super.

That is patently false. Goku on several occasions in Super has shown empathy to others, or at least understands the concept of empathy.

He has also shown to care enough to actually work for his family even when he knows Chichi has absolutely no power over him. Heck even just watching one of the recent dubbed episode of the Trunks arc Goku was making sure Trunks ate properly and then also Goku worried for Gowasu when Beerus was waiting for Zamasu to land the killing blow. These are just a few examples too, far from a man who doesn't care about anyone or anything.
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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby snpaa » Wed May 02, 2018 11:26 am

I've noticed that the first like 10 replies aren't even related to the question. You guys are making an argument on whether goku is a morally good person and not an argument on whether he's a hero . Goku himself doesn't see himself as a hero but if you hurt or threaten his family or friends he will fight you for it . Also he just likes to fight , goku was intended to be ambiguous with his reasons on helping people on whether or not he's doing it because he's a good person or he's doing it for his own selfish reasons .

Goku is just goku , he's not gonna go around committing murder and mayhem but at the same time he's not a cape and tight wearing super hero looking to stop crimes all over the world.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby TBMx » Wed May 02, 2018 3:38 pm

The biggest condemnation against DBS Goku is he didn't know what to wish for when Ribrienne asked him at the ToP. "Fighting against a strong guy" or "something for his sons". And his "We just gotta win" non reaction to hearing Universes will die by Zeno's hand, and his "Responsibility!?" response to Beerus, when Beerus asked him to take some. If we define hero as someone who seeks to improve conditions, then DBS Goku isn't.

He does legendary feats of strength in his setting and seeing strong people attack the weak goes against his sense of honour. It's not because he cares about the weak, (if he did, he wouldn't have given Cell a Senzu Bean) it's because of his strong sense of fairness. He doesn't like a mismatch.

A anti hero is defined as:
a central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes.

That's Goku in DBS.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Asura » Wed May 02, 2018 4:14 pm

Goku's little speech in 130 is pretty much him speaking directly on this issue. He says he doesn't consider himself a hero of justice or anything like that, but he won't stand by idly if people threaten his friends (or his world).

So yeah, Goku is a hero, and he's always been a hero. He doesn't try to be a hero intentionally, hell many times it's his own selfishness that puts others at risk, but he'll always be there to save the day and stand up for those who can not, like for the Namekians on Namek. He won't realize that he's doing it, but he is.

...Except for that whole thing at the exhibition matches where Goku essentially tells the other universes to go fuck themselves and doesn't seem to care about the trillions of innocent lives that will be lost because of his actions (before it was revealed that what he did by starting the tournament was actually a good thing). But it was an example of yet another dropped plot point, and the ToP arc was full of those. They made a whole big deal out of it too, even trying to paint Goku as the villain with Toppo calling him evil. But it was a red herring and never went anywhere, and Goku's antagonistic nature disappeared after that.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Lord Beerus » Wed May 02, 2018 5:46 pm

Asura wrote:...Except for that whole thing at the exhibition matches where Goku essentially tells the other universes to go fuck themselves and doesn't seem to care about the trillions of innocent lives that will be lost because of his actions (before it was revealed that what he did by starting the tournament was actually a good thing). But it was an example of yet another dropped plot point, and the ToP arc was full of those. They made a whole big deal out of it too, even trying to paint Goku as the villain with Toppo calling him evil. But it was a red herring and never went anywhere, and Goku's antagonistic nature disappeared after that.

I really wouldn't classify Goku behaviour at the Zen Exhibition Matches or referring to himself "evil" as a red herring. It was just more of an observation some of the characters made in-universe based on what they knew at that time, and Goku deciding to mess around with Toppo.

Goku suggested an option where no lives would need to be erased and it was option that Whis didn't recommend. And when Goku openly asked what he should do, he was just told to focus on performing well in the Zen Exhibition Match and to win the Tournament Of Power, as it was too late to understand the danger he unwillingly got everyone into. Goku accepted the responsibility of making sure Universe 7 wouldn't get erased and expressed the attitude of "No matter who I'm up against, I'll win!". The only thing Goku didn't care about was being seen as as enemy in every universe. That doesn't equate to him not caring about the other universes.

And even when Goku was acting as overconfident as he was after beating Bergamo, the only Hakaishin in the end who seemed to give a shit about his flippant attitude was Sidra and Rumsshi. And Rumsshi was more upset at how casually friendly Goku was with Zeno than anything else.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Asura » Wed May 02, 2018 6:50 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Asura wrote:...Except for that whole thing at the exhibition matches where Goku essentially tells the other universes to go fuck themselves and doesn't seem to care about the trillions of innocent lives that will be lost because of his actions (before it was revealed that what he did by starting the tournament was actually a good thing). But it was an example of yet another dropped plot point, and the ToP arc was full of those. They made a whole big deal out of it too, even trying to paint Goku as the villain with Toppo calling him evil. But it was a red herring and never went anywhere, and Goku's antagonistic nature disappeared after that.

I really wouldn't classify Goku behaviour at the Zen Exhibition Matches or referring to himself "evil" as a red herring. It was just more of an observation some of the characters made in-universe based on what they knew at that time, and Goku deciding to mess around with Toppo.

Goku suggested an option where no lives would need to be erased and it was option that Whis didn't recommend. And when Goku openly asked what he should do, he was just told to focus on performing well in the Zen Exhibition Match and to win the Tournament Of Power, as it was too late to understand the danger he unwillingly got everyone into. Goku accepted the responsibility of making sure Universe 7 wouldn't get erased and expressed the attitude of "No matter who I'm up against, I'll win!". The only thing Goku didn't care about was being seen as as enemy in every universe. That doesn't equate to him not caring about the other universes.

And even when Goku was acting as overconfident as he was after beating Bergamo, the only Hakaishin in the end who seemed to give a shit about his flippant attitude was Sidra and Rumsshi. And Rumsshi was more upset at how casually friendly Goku was with Zeno than anything else.


Goku had no remorse for anything he did. They were purposefully making Goku out to be a villain to contrast with Toppo, the paragon of justice. He acted very antagonistic and never thought even once about how he just doomed multiple universes to their erasure when it otherwise would not have happened (at least, that's what Goku knew at the time).

I can make a big post explaining it all, but this 13 minute video by MasakoX pretty much sums up my views exactly if you care to watch it.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Lord Beerus » Wed May 02, 2018 8:04 pm

Asura wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Asura wrote:...Except for that whole thing at the exhibition matches where Goku essentially tells the other universes to go fuck themselves and doesn't seem to care about the trillions of innocent lives that will be lost because of his actions (before it was revealed that what he did by starting the tournament was actually a good thing). But it was an example of yet another dropped plot point, and the ToP arc was full of those. They made a whole big deal out of it too, even trying to paint Goku as the villain with Toppo calling him evil. But it was a red herring and never went anywhere, and Goku's antagonistic nature disappeared after that.

I really wouldn't classify Goku behaviour at the Zen Exhibition Matches or referring to himself "evil" as a red herring. It was just more of an observation some of the characters made in-universe based on what they knew at that time, and Goku deciding to mess around with Toppo.

Goku suggested an option where no lives would need to be erased and it was option that Whis didn't recommend. And when Goku openly asked what he should do, he was just told to focus on performing well in the Zen Exhibition Match and to win the Tournament Of Power, as it was too late to understand the danger he unwillingly got everyone into. Goku accepted the responsibility of making sure Universe 7 wouldn't get erased and expressed the attitude of "No matter who I'm up against, I'll win!". The only thing Goku didn't care about was being seen as as enemy in every universe. That doesn't equate to him not caring about the other universes.

And even when Goku was acting as overconfident as he was after beating Bergamo, the only Hakaishin in the end who seemed to give a shit about his flippant attitude was Sidra and Rumsshi. And Rumsshi was more upset at how casually friendly Goku was with Zeno than anything else.


Goku had no remorse for anything he did. They were purposefully making Goku out to be a villain to contrast with Toppo, the paragon of justice. He acted very antagonistic and never thought even once about how he just doomed multiple universes to their erasure when it otherwise would not have happened (at least, that's what Goku knew at the time).

I can make a big post explaining it all, but this 13 minute video by MasakoX pretty much sums up my views exactly if you care to watch it.

I've watched the video before. MasakoX make some decent points. But I feel as though he doesn't take into the the fact that the story itself in the past has flat out stated that Goku is the kind of guy that is more concerned about fighting people who offer him a challenge above anything else.

I wouldn't paint Goku as an Anti-Hero at all. The spectrum of heroism is extremely broad and very complicated, that attributing Goku, or at least some traits of him, with a title like that feels quite disingenuous to his character and is, in my opinion, an assessment of his personality that is to black-and-white for my liking.

I've already stated that I believe Goku is Accidental Hero. But if you want another interepation, you could view Goku as Classical Hero, much like Hercules. He is more than willing to protect his friends and family and save the day, should the time call of it, but the fashion of which he will go about it at times is questionable at best (Majin Boo arc) and very morally skewered at worst (Android arc).

Goku was fully aware of what the ramifications were for the Tournament Of Power as he proposed suggestion to get rid of the Universe erasing stipulation, and him questioning what he should do after that suggestion was not advised does show that Goku has some level guilt over what has happened.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Zen Yabuki » Wed May 02, 2018 8:12 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
TBMx wrote:DBS's version is not a hero in any modern understanding of the term. But he can be classed a hero like Achilles from Greek myth. Just a ridiculously OP warrior the story's about who's venerated by his peers.

Even characters like that had motivations and things to fight for. Goku in Super doesn't really care about anything or anyone if it doesn't amuse his battle obsession. He's by no means heroic in Super.

That is patently false. Goku on several occasions in Super has shown empathy to others, or at least understands the concept of empathy.

Of course it's false. Some though think he's just a sociopath that cares about little to nothing when that's blatantly false and we see him show care for others throughout the course of the show. There are plenty of examples. Some really just like to ignore them.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby ulisa » Thu May 03, 2018 12:07 pm

Well, honestly, that depends on what kind of hero you’re talking about. I think when people hear the word “hero” they automatically jump to the Classical Hero but there’s a bunch of different types of heroes—Byronic, Romantic, Anti-Hero, Classical, Folk, etc and that’s just within Western literature. I’m sure the Asian literature has their own archetypes.

Having said that though, most people seem to think “Classical” but a more modern version aka Superman-esque and I’d say that Goku fits that to some degree but by a more traditional definition. The original “Classical “ heroes are usually considered to be heroes of Greek/Roman mythology in that they had divine or unusual birth, performed feats of great strength or courage, and usually endured some type of suffering.

The “almost perfect” traits we associate with characters like Superman is really more of a modern phenomenon. Most of the Greek/Roman heroes had glaring character traits (bad tempers/violent outbursts being most common) and usually performed their acts for either fame/glory or for a form of redemption. The 12 Labors of Heracles is a good example of this. It’s only in more modern incarnations that the acts shift from egocentric to selfless.

I’d consider Goku a version of the Classical hero with some modern flavoring—he has an unusual birth (alien origin) performs outrageous feats for his own self-improvement/pride, and endures some suffering/bad consequences for it—how much this is acknowledged depends on the writer. However, I would not call him entirely selfish as he does care for his friends and family and we see that reflected in some of his actions. So while self improvement and growing stronger is his primary concern, he will use these abilities to help those that he cares about. He’s just not going to wake up in the morning asking what wrong he can right.

I’d argue Gohan has that trait in that he wants to use his abilities to help people as the primary goal and if he has to get stronger to do so then so be it whereas Goku’s is the opposite—I’m gonna grow stronger and if I end up helping people along the way, that’s a nice perk.

Honestly, that might be why I like to see Goku and Gohan work off one another so much. Their goals are so different but there are enough similarities in their paths that they can connect. I’d also argue they have the strongest connection out of Goku’s family members but that’s another topic entirely.
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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Asura » Thu May 03, 2018 4:22 pm

ulisa wrote:I’d also argue they have the strongest connection out of Goku’s family members but that’s another topic entirely.


Is it even a contest though?

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby ulisa » Thu May 03, 2018 4:43 pm

Asura wrote:
ulisa wrote:I’d also argue they have the strongest connection out of Goku’s family members but that’s another topic entirely.


Is it even a contest though?


Depends on who you ask. I’ve heard arguments for his connection to every member of his family.
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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby TekTheNinja » Fri May 04, 2018 3:12 pm

Zen Yabuki wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:Even characters like that had motivations and things to fight for. Goku in Super doesn't really care about anything or anyone if it doesn't amuse his battle obsession. He's by no means heroic in Super.

That is patently false. Goku on several occasions in Super has shown empathy to others, or at least understands the concept of empathy.

Of course it's false. Some though think he's just a sociopath that cares about little to nothing when that's blatantly false and we see him show care for others throughout the course of the show. There are plenty of examples. Some really just like to ignore them.

But compared to any past series he clearly cares less. Doesn't matter that sometimes he doesn't act like a totally garbage unlikable character, when he's still a much worse person than before.
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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Lord Beerus » Fri May 04, 2018 5:12 pm

TekTheNinja wrote:
Zen Yabuki wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:That is patently false. Goku on several occasions in Super has shown empathy to others, or at least understands the concept of empathy.

Of course it's false. Some though think he's just a sociopath that cares about little to nothing when that's blatantly false and we see him show care for others throughout the course of the show. There are plenty of examples. Some really just like to ignore them.

But compared to any past series he clearly cares less. Doesn't matter that sometimes he doesn't act like a totally garbage unlikable character, when he's still a much worse person than before.

That is, again, patently false. Goku has displayed throughout Super that he cares greatly for his friends and friends in the same fashion as before.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby SirTorra » Sat May 05, 2018 10:24 am

Goku has always been a hero. From DB to Z to GT and even Super. Goku will always be portrayed as a hero.

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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby Low Tone G » Sat May 05, 2018 2:12 pm

As I view:
1. Like he admits it himself, he is not an intentional hero.
2. He still instinctually recognizes real dangers and acts like a hero without even realazing what is the true meaning of his deeds.
3. He has a very simple world view, but he still has a really strict moral code and he'd never really endanger others just for the sake of it, so basically he has no evil intents towards people.
4. Yes, he is very selfish, but just because he doesn't consider potential dangers which could arise because of his behaviour, he is just reckless(due his Saiyan nature).
5. He is very optimistic, so he doesn't avoid pontential losses.
6. He views life as a great adventure which serves him to heighten himself at each and every opportunity.(He is basically a grown up child)
7- He is the main character, so that's why his deeds turn out to serve some greater good, even though he lives for himself. (So he is the chosen one who can not prevent himself to do great things, whatever he does. - This reality is kind of ridiculous and might be the matter of lazy writing of his character, but that's exactly why we love him.)

So he is a born hero, but not one who consciously embraced his true nature of this kind.

But all these doesn't mean he is perfect, is just means that he is likable just like that way he is and has ever been.
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Re: Is Goku a hero in Super?

Postby HeroR » Sun May 06, 2018 2:41 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Goku is an Accidental Hero. He says this himself in Episode 87 where he states that he's never been fully aware of saving the world, and has only gotten as far as he has in life from fighting strong guys. But that doesn't mean he lack ethics or morals as he also goes on to state that he can't stand innocent and animals getting erased.

It's reiterated in Episode 130 when Jiren tries to attack Goku's friends and family in the stands of the Tournament Of Power, and Goku gets angry, while also stating that while he's not a hero of justice or anything like that, he won't forgive anybody who hurts his friends.


That isn't the proper used of Accidental Hero. Accidental Hero on TV Tropes is someone who saves someone by accident with no intention of helping. Goku will internally help the person in front of him, he just won't go out of his way to find people to held via Superman.

You can be a hero and view yourself as one. Like most police man don't see themselves as heroes despite risking their lives everyday.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.

Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.


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