Vegeta's incompetent

[PFM18]

Vegeta was being outwardly cocky but he knew he had no chance. The point of the scene was that Vegeta fights to the very end no matter what. Also he was buying tme for the tournament to be over and for Goku to recharge himself.

[OLKv3]

You wanted more? I thought it was bad enough Goku was able to do as much as he did with it. I was glad he had it all beaten out of him so quickly, so he could go UI without any of that taint in him.

I just wanted it to actually mean something. It's Vegeta admitting defeat and putting all his faith in Goku, he's even crying as he gives the energy to him, and then 5 seconds later Goku uses that energy to do absolutely nothing except get destroyed again.

I agree with Asura on this, I think Goku should have at least accomplished something with Vegeta's energy. Maybe not much, maybe he just lands a really solid punch on Jiren, but at least something.

Vegeta's energy is what allowed Goku to use UI. He couldn't even stand before Vegeta gave him energy. With that last bit of energy he was able to finally break his limits and regain UI.

[TBMx]

What about it is satirical, or in any way untrue?

I think you're entirely missing the point of Vegeta's "last stand".

Am I? Vegeta gives Goku the energy first, charges Jiren, loses in a fraction of the time, the audience is spared the melodrama, Jiren doesn't come off nearly as passive and dumb, Vegeta comes off smart, Goku's subsequent SSB transformation is less implausible, and again - Vegeta gets to make his last stand. Just not as long, overdone and nonsensical. A pointless last stand doesn't need to be long. In fact the longer it is, the more it hurts the story. Particularly damages Jiren's credibility.

It's bad writing to make a character act just to fit the "point" of a scene. Some semblence of logic has to come into it.

It's a bad writer that says : "I want this, so the character will do this, regardless of if it makes sense"

Vegeta is supposed to be an adult man.

I feel I need say no more.

[Saturnine]

What about it is satirical, or in any way untrue?

I think you're entirely missing the point of Vegeta's "last stand".

Am I? Vegeta gives Goku the energy first, charges Jiren, loses in a fraction of the time, the audience is spared the melodrama, Jiren doesn't come off nearly as passive and dumb, Vegeta comes off smart, Goku's subsequent SSB transformation is less implausible, and again - Vegeta gets to make his last stand. Just not as long, overdone and nonsensical. A pointless last stand doesn't need to be long. In fact the longer it is, the more it hurts the story. Particularly damages Jiren's credibility.

It's bad writing to make a character act just to fit the "point" of a scene. Some semblence of logic has to come into it.

It's a bad writer that says : "I want this, so the character will do this, regardless of if it makes sense"

Vegeta is supposed to be an adult man.

I feel I need say no more.

So you're saying vegeta should have given up for tactical reasons, his pride be damned, his promise be damned and his responsibility be worth fuck all?

Strong personality traits tend to go in contrast with rational judgment, that's what makes good stories unfold. in this case Vegeta's portrayal was intended to show him in a good light, a superbly determined warrior who fights for his loved ones. This is a logical extension of his character development from the Buu arc and all of Super.

Nobody gives a shit whether it wad tactically sound or not. Nor should it be the focus here.

[TBMx]

I think you're entirely missing the point of Vegeta's "last stand".

Am I? Vegeta gives Goku the energy first, charges Jiren, loses in a fraction of the time, the audience is spared the melodrama, Jiren doesn't come off nearly as passive and dumb, Vegeta comes off smart, Goku's subsequent SSB transformation is less implausible, and again - Vegeta gets to make his last stand. Just not as long, overdone and nonsensical. A pointless last stand doesn't need to be long. In fact the longer it is, the more it hurts the story. Particularly damages Jiren's credibility.

It's bad writing to make a character act just to fit the "point" of a scene. Some semblence of logic has to come into it.

It's a bad writer that says : "I want this, so the character will do this, regardless of if it makes sense"

Vegeta is supposed to be an adult man.

I feel I need say no more.

So you're saying vegeta should have given up for tactical reasons, his pride be damned, his promise be damned and his responsibility be worth fuck all?

Strong personality traits tend to go in contrast with rational judgment, that's what makes good stories unfold. in this case Vegeta's portrayal was intended to show him in a good light, a superbly determined warrior who fights for his loved ones. This is a logical extension of his character development from the Buu arc and all of Super.

Nobody gives a shit whether it wad tactically sound or not. Nor should it be the focus here.

This isn't an either or scenario because taking Jiren on with even less energy is no less "proud" than what he did. He can be proud and have the intelligence of an adult.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Am I? Vegeta gives Goku the energy first, charges Jiren, loses in a fraction of the time, the audience is spared the melodrama, Jiren doesn't come off nearly as passive and dumb, Vegeta comes off smart, Goku's subsequent SSB transformation is less implausible, and again - Vegeta gets to make his last stand. Just not as long, overdone and nonsensical. A pointless last stand doesn't need to be long. In fact the longer it is, the more it hurts the story. Particularly damages Jiren's credibility.

It's bad writing to make a character act just to fit the "point" of a scene. Some semblence of logic has to come into it.

It's a bad writer that says : "I want this, so the character will do this, regardless of if it makes sense"

Vegeta is supposed to be an adult man.

I feel I need say no more.

So you're saying vegeta should have given up for tactical reasons, his pride be damned, his promise be damned and his responsibility be worth fuck all?

Strong personality traits tend to go in contrast with rational judgment, that's what makes good stories unfold. in this case Vegeta's portrayal was intended to show him in a good light, a superbly determined warrior who fights for his loved ones. This is a logical extension of his character development from the Buu arc and all of Super.

Nobody gives a shit whether it wad tactically sound or not. Nor should it be the focus here.

This isn't an either or scenario because taking Jiren on with even less energy is no less "proud" than what he did. He can be proud and have the intelligence of an adult.

I don't think you understand how Vegeta' s character works.

[TBMx]

So you're saying vegeta should have given up for tactical reasons, his pride be damned, his promise be damned and his responsibility be worth fuck all?

Strong personality traits tend to go in contrast with rational judgment, that's what makes good stories unfold. in this case Vegeta's portrayal was intended to show him in a good light, a superbly determined warrior who fights for his loved ones. This is a logical extension of his character development from the Buu arc and all of Super.

Nobody gives a shit whether it wad tactically sound or not. Nor should it be the focus here.

This isn't an either or scenario because taking Jiren on with even less energy is no less "proud" than what he did. He can be proud and have the intelligence of an adult.

I don't think you understand how Vegeta' s character works.

Is Vegeta supposed to be a child or an adult man?

[Saturnine]

If you think adults in real life can overcome their strong personality traits (or "flaws") to act with the best judgment at any given time, then you're woefully naive.

Pride happens to be one of strongest such traits, it really makes people screw up perfectly salvageable situations or refuse to continue potentially viable relationships etc.

[Low Tone G]

If you think adults in real life can overcome their strong personality traits (or "flaws") to act with the best judgment at any given time, then you're woefully naive.

Pride happens to be one of strongest such traits, it really makes people screw up perfectly salvageable situations or refuse to continue potentially viable relationships etc.

Yes! This is a wise answer! I really agreed with Vegeta's behavior and it completely was an in-character moment.

[Kaiosama]

Yeah, Vegeta is an insecure, violent, petty little baby whose character regressed so bad in Super. Incompetent and Vegeta go hand-in-hand.

[TBMx]

If you think adults in real life can overcome their strong personality traits (or "flaws") to act with the best judgment at any given time, then you're woefully naive.

Pride happens to be one of strongest such traits, it really makes people screw up perfectly salvageable situations or refuse to continue potentially viable relationships etc.

Any adult without cognitive disability can tell when they're sorely outclassed and have no chance of winning. Proud or not. Exhausted people don't think they can outrun Usain Bolt unless they have the naive mind of a child who thinks they're Superman. Pride has nothing to do with it. Vegeta is billed as a strategist and a genius. He isn't supposed to be at the mental level of a wailing tantruming child who no matter what, insists they're really Superman. This is why in Dragonball Z, the superior portrayal, he backed down when it was clear that he stood no chance against Frieza. This was when Vegeta was younger, more brash and evil. you're defending a settled down decades older version of the character regressing from that point. You're trying to defend the indefensible. Another example, against Kid Buu, he knew his role was just to buy Goku time. He didn't think he could actually win. This is because he was able to read the scenario and react with a semblence of logic consistent with having an adult brain.

[Low Tone G]

If you think adults in real life can overcome their strong personality traits (or "flaws") to act with the best judgment at any given time, then you're woefully naive.

Pride happens to be one of strongest such traits, it really makes people screw up perfectly salvageable situations or refuse to continue potentially viable relationships etc.

Any adult without cognitive disability can tell when they're sorely outclassed and have no chance of winning. Proud or not. Exhausted people don't think they can outrun Usain Bolt unless they have the naive mind of a child who thinks they're Superman. Pride has nothing to do with it. Vegeta is billed as a strategist and a genius. He isn't supposed to be at the mental level of a wailing tantruming child who no matter what, insists they're really Superman. This is why in Dragonball Z, the superior portrayal, he backed down when it was clear that he stood no chance against Frieza. This was when Vegeta was younger, more brash and evil. you're defending a settled down decades older version of the character regressing from that point. You're trying to defend the indefensible. Another example, against Kid Buu, he knew his role was just to buy Goku time. He didn't think he could actually win. This is because he was able to read the scenario and react with a semblence of logic consistent with having an adult brain.

So it's suggested beyond any reasonable doubt that Vegeta's mindset was only like to beat Jiren all by himself in that moment?

[z_cherub]

I don't know why it's surprising for him to charge at the enemy head on with "Muh Saiyan Pride." Battle strategy isn't Vegeta's strong suit he's never depicted as a battle genius. He's charged in head on at the enemy in every single fight he's in.

I think in a way that's sort of the problem. The series tells us Vegeta is this "battle genius and master tactician" but in Z, and in both manga and anime versions of Super so far, he's rarely ever portrayed as a genius combatant, contradictory to what it wants us to believe.

He started out as a master tactician, though. His cat & mouse games in ateempting to get the DBs before Freeza, Zarbon, Dodoria, Kuririn & Gohan during the Namek arc were fantastic when he knew he was outclassed by the first 3. He had an ace up his sleeve in the Saiyan arc, too. Ever since the Cell arc, though, he's apparently intellectually devolved into being incapable of understanding/employing any strategy beyond "charge the other guy head-on".

I wish AT had given him a few moments to show off his tactical abilities instead of regurgitating the whole "pride" thing over & over.

[Zen Yabuki]

I don't know why it's surprising for him to charge at the enemy head on with "Muh Saiyan Pride." Battle strategy isn't Vegeta's strong suit he's never depicted as a battle genius. He's charged in head on at the enemy in every single fight he's in.

I think in a way that's sort of the problem. The series tells us Vegeta is this "battle genius and master tactician" but in Z, and in both manga and anime versions of Super so far, he's rarely ever portrayed as a genius combatant, contradictory to what it wants us to believe.

He started out as a master tactician, though. His cat & mouse games in ateempting to get the DBs before Freeza, Zarbon, Dodoria, Kuririn & Gohan during the Namek arc were fantastic when he knew he was outclassed by the first 3. He had an ace up his sleeve in the Saiyan arc, too. Ever since the Cell arc, though, he's apparently intellectually devolved into being incapable of understanding/employing any strategy beyond "charge the other guy head-on".

I wish AT had given him a few moments to show off his tactical abilities instead of regurgitating the whole "pride" thing over & over.

That's really the big issue. He was shown to be pretty cunning early on but as the series progressed, we saw his battle genius and Master tactician side of him less often than we should have. He's showed moments of being a fighting genius in his fight with Black in the manga, his fight with Jiren in 122, and discovering Freeza's weakness in the RoF Saga from watching Goku fighting Freeza. But the problem is that it's usually few and far between. Because we're told Vegeta is very smart as a fighter, but we mostly see him as a brute. I'd really like for them to portray Vegeta appropriately.

[Lionel]

Vegeta, like all would-be tacticians of the show, have a habit of telling moreso than showing. Whatever accomplishments related to this mental aptitude fail to meet up to the high expectations that are befitting for such a designation. At best, it shows that they're capable of expressing a moderate degree of clever unpredictability and resourcefulness every now and then. However, with the nature of Dragon Ball's format, it makes demonstrating this talent difficult.

[Zen Yabuki]

Vegeta, like all would-be tacticians of the show, have a habit of telling moreso than showing. Whatever accomplishments related to this mental aptitude fail to meet up to the high expectations that are befitting for such a designation. At best, it shows that they're capable of expressing a moderate degree of clever unpredictability and resourcefulness every now and then. However, with the nature of Dragon Ball's format, it makes demonstrating this talent difficult.

I agree though I think DB’s done a great job showing Goku, Kuririn, Roshi, and now 17 and Hit as tactical fighters are among the most tactical. The show does less to tell us and shows us. Like the show doesn’t tell us that Goku’s this tactical genius, we however can tell he is from watching several of his fights

[Tai Lung]

although goku will save it from falling, vegeta equal remains without energies
the difference is that goku would still have the UI to fight and vegeta not
it would be more nuisance than help

[Miracles]

It was obvious Vegeta stood no chance against Jiren after he could no longer go Super Saiyan.

Yet he said "This form is more than enough for you!" And charged him anyway.

What's he basing that on? Because even a child could see that's not the case. Vegeta's supposed to be a genius isn't he? A combat genius thinks - even under pressure.

Here's something a "genius" should know:

At any point while Jiren was just standing there waiting for Vegeta to recover over and over, he could have easily blasted an immobile Goku off the stage.

So it makes a lot more sense to give Goku the energy first, and then attack.
1)Goku receives more energy.
2) Isn't a sitting duck if Jiren decides to blast him.
3) Could potentially defend Vegeta or teleport them out of that corner. Give how ridiculously fast these two recover, and how little was left of the clock, it makes sense to do that.

Vegeta was right. He is a fool. He should be crying. Cos he blew it by employing no strategy whatsoever.

Vegeta's pride, you know, the trait that makes him...Vegeta; it would not allow him to waiver with another option. He made a promise to Cabba that HE would win and resurrect U6.
So no matter what, regardless of how hopeless the situation is, Vegeta wouldn't seek another way but try to win alone like he boasted about earlier.