Do you think a guidebook would...

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Meshack » Tue May 08, 2018 1:41 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Meshack wrote:Fans believed Gokou couldn’t become a golden Super Saiyan after achieving Blue but guess what? He did. Absorbing the power of God doesn’t mean he can’t use the form. But believe what you want
I don't get why people struggle with the concept so much. It's the same as GT Goku allegedly being as strong as SS3 Buu Saga Goku. It doesn't stop him from transforming into SS3, he's just that much stronger.
I’m not struggling with the concept.... Beerus literally told Gokou his power was fading but Gokou then unleashed a powerful Kamehameha after telling Beerus that the power of Super Saiyan God told him he only scratched the surface. Yes, Gokou didn’t drop out of God to SS but again, Toyotarou only got 15 pages back then. He couldn’t do everything the movie and show did. The only reason we know Gokou absorbed is due to Beerus explaining it. He didn’t get the chance to explain it in the comic. Toyotarou didn’t have the time

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by BlueBasilisk » Tue May 08, 2018 1:45 pm

Meshack wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Meshack wrote:Fans believed Gokou couldn’t become a golden Super Saiyan after achieving Blue but guess what? He did. Absorbing the power of God doesn’t mean he can’t use the form. But believe what you want
I don't get why people struggle with the concept so much. It's the same as GT Goku allegedly being as strong as SS3 Buu Saga Goku. It doesn't stop him from transforming into SS3, he's just that much stronger.
I’m not struggling with the concept.... Beerus literally told Gokou his power was fading but Gokou then unleashed a powerful Kamehameha after telling Beerus that the power of Super Saiyan God told him he only scratched the surface. Yes, Gokou didn’t drop out of God to SS but again, Toyotarou only got 15 pages back then. He couldn’t do everything the movie and show did. The only reason we know Gokou absorbed is due to Beerus explaining it. He didn’t get the chance to explain it in the comic. Toyotarou didn’t have the time
I wasn't talking about you with that.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Meshack » Tue May 08, 2018 2:25 pm

Oops. I thought it was for me. Just ignore my comment then

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Omniboy » Tue May 08, 2018 3:23 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Yet another example of the manga being trash. Goku could lift 40 tons in base during 7 years before the Buu arc. That implies Goku pre buu arc>Vegeta U6 tournament

The anime sheds no light on how heavy they are or how much Goku/Vegeta can lift

Goku was a super saiyan when he lifted 40 tons and as DevilCorpse below pointed out, the manga has never shown or indicated that goku/vegeta base forms are superior to BoG SSG Goku which i forgot about
He was struggling to carry it but he still could. Once he became a super saiyan it became light as a feather. The manga doesnt have any "infusion of god power scene" but vegeta should still be several fold stronger than pre Buu arc Goku and they showed vegeta to be weaker.
1000/50 = 20 tons
Goku lifted 40 tons

Hence the manga implying Goku pre buu arc> Vegeta U6 arc

How did you get 20 tons? It was 1,000 right? Are you saying that because Vegeta was trying to lift one leg?

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Tue May 08, 2018 4:32 pm

Omniboy wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:

Goku was a super saiyan when he lifted 40 tons and as DevilCorpse below pointed out, the manga has never shown or indicated that goku/vegeta base forms are superior to BoG SSG Goku which i forgot about
He was struggling to carry it but he still could. Once he became a super saiyan it became light as a feather. The manga doesnt have any "infusion of god power scene" but vegeta should still be several fold stronger than pre Buu arc Goku and they showed vegeta to be weaker.
1000/50 = 20 tons
Goku lifted 40 tons

Hence the manga implying Goku pre buu arc> Vegeta U6 arc

How did you get 20 tons? It was 1,000 right? Are you saying that because Vegeta was trying to lift one leg?
20 tons to adjust for the fact that Vegeta was a super saiyan and goku wasnt. SSJ is a 50x multiplier so it would be the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in base.(And goku lifted 40 tons in base) Which at this point for Base Vegeta unable to lift 20 tons is absolutely absurd.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Omniboy » Tue May 08, 2018 5:47 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
He was struggling to carry it but he still could. Once he became a super saiyan it became light as a feather. The manga doesnt have any "infusion of god power scene" but vegeta should still be several fold stronger than pre Buu arc Goku and they showed vegeta to be weaker.
1000/50 = 20 tons
Goku lifted 40 tons

Hence the manga implying Goku pre buu arc> Vegeta U6 arc

How did you get 20 tons? It was 1,000 right? Are you saying that because Vegeta was trying to lift one leg?
20 tons to adjust for the fact that Vegeta was a super saiyan and goku wasnt. SSJ is a 50x multiplier so it would be the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in base.(And goku lifted 40 tons in base) Which at this point for Base Vegeta unable to lift 20 tons is absolutely absurd.
But Goku didn't lift 40 tons in his base form. It just dragged him down he until became a super saiyan.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Here is the full page but in japanese:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Tue May 08, 2018 7:09 pm

Omniboy wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Omniboy wrote:

How did you get 20 tons? It was 1,000 right? Are you saying that because Vegeta was trying to lift one leg?
20 tons to adjust for the fact that Vegeta was a super saiyan and goku wasnt. SSJ is a 50x multiplier so it would be the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in base.(And goku lifted 40 tons in base) Which at this point for Base Vegeta unable to lift 20 tons is absolutely absurd.
But Goku didn't lift 40 tons in his base form. It just dragged him down he until became a super saiyan.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Here is the full page but in japanese:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Like i said, he was struggling to lift it. At the end of the day he was still flying and holding it. Vegeta completely failed to lift the equivalent of 20 tons in base.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Omniboy » Tue May 08, 2018 8:02 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Omniboy wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
20 tons to adjust for the fact that Vegeta was a super saiyan and goku wasnt. SSJ is a 50x multiplier so it would be the equivalent of not being able to lift 20 tons in base.(And goku lifted 40 tons in base) Which at this point for Base Vegeta unable to lift 20 tons is absolutely absurd.
But Goku didn't lift 40 tons in his base form. It just dragged him down he until became a super saiyan.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Here is the full page but in japanese:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Like i said, he was struggling to lift it. At the end of the day he was still flying and holding it. Vegeta completely failed to lift the equivalent of 20 tons in base.

What do you mean? He was up in the air in at first, but it's obvious that if held for a split second longer he was going to fall straight. I mean it doesn't even look like he held it in his base form for two seconds before turning super saiyan. The big question should be, would Goku be able to pick it up if it was on the ground in his base form?
Last edited by Omniboy on Tue May 08, 2018 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue May 08, 2018 8:32 pm

PFM18 wrote: Like i said, he was struggling to lift it.
The intention of that panel is extremely clear in showing that he couldn't lift it at all. There's no inherent inconsistency between this and Super Saiyan Vegeta being unable to lift 1,000 tons.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Tue May 08, 2018 9:54 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Like i said, he was struggling to lift it.
The intention of that panel is extremely clear in showing that he couldn't lift it at all. There's no inherent inconsistency between this and Super Saiyan Vegeta being unable to lift 1,000 tons.
I don't see it that way. I think the purpose was to scare the guy watching Goku struggle with 40 tons then be completely unable to even notice the difference when he goes SSJ. The scene just showed the power of SSJ. Even so, lifting X amount of weight is much easier than carrying it around on your body, so either way Begeta being unable to lift 1000 tons as a Super Saiyan makes no sense given that the scene where Goku has 40 tons in base weighing him down and can still fly, exists.

Any way you slice it, it is completely ridiculous that SSJ Vegeta this late in the Dragon Ball story can't even lift 1000 tons, given that he should be able to destroy a universe, (or atleast in the anime he can.) I mean in original Dragon ball they were pushing boulders that should weigh several tons.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue May 08, 2018 10:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:so either way Begeta being unable to lift 1000 tons as a Super Saiyan makes no sense given that the scene where Goku has 40 tons in base weighing him down and can still fly, exists.
Goku wasn't still flying. The lines drawn from his entire body (as opposed to just his limbs) visually indicated a downward trajectory the moment they were manifested. Those weights were literally dragging him to the ground because he couldn't handle them in any capacity until he was already in mid-transformation; he just happened to transform before they could pull him that far.

Again, Goku being unable to lift 40 tons in base prior to the Buu arc is entirely compatible with the idea of Vegeta currently being unable to lift 1,000 tons as a Super Saiyan. Absolutely nothing in the source material contradicts it.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Saturnine » Wed May 09, 2018 11:07 am

There have indeed been retcons.

At first, Goku and Vegeta were supposed to have absorbed the godly power into base. When a Saiyan in such a state goes SSj, the result is SSj Blue. This portrayal was shown in the BoG and Potaufeu arcs, as well as some odd "filler" episodes, like Goku vs Beerus in Monaka's disguise.

But soon afterwards, like in the U6 tournament, this approach appeared to have been abandoned, and the regular SSj forms made a comeback. By that point it was clear that Goku and Vegeta aren't being portrayed as having SSj God power in base. Unless you find it believable that base Cabba, who'd never even heard of regular SSj, was stronger than SSj God - a tier of power considered by Goku to be not achievable through regular means.

Same goes for Future Trunks. The old SSj forms were brought back for marketing reasons as well as to create a more engaging show. The writers probably realized that replacing like 5 power tiers marked by transformations with just the base form where Goku just modifies his PL wouldn't make for a very exciting watch. And then even SSj God itself was brought back, to me the final nail in the coffin to the notion of the god power remaining absorbed into base.

Unless you really think SSj God first merges into your base, and then gives you the same multiplier over that new base. In that case, heavens have mercy on you

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed May 09, 2018 11:54 am

Rakurai wrote:
Meshack wrote:Toyotarou only had a certain amount of pages at the time, far less than he has now. There’s no way he could have concluded that battle and teased Freeza’s return with less than 20 pages. He already skipped tons of stuff that was in the movie and TV animated version. Toyotarou had tons to juggle with and didn’t have time to explain it. Everything is the comic basically goes with the movie and animated version just not seen. Just because he didn’t get to explain it means it didn’t happen?
SSG is an active transformation. Absorbing SSG is either fan canon or has been retconned.

Toei did it and guess what, they ignored SSG for almost 100 episodes, and only started using it after Toyotaro's usage of the form was already in existence. Toei backtracked and retconned it cause they probably realized they could sell more toys by shoehorning it in for whatever random reason.

There's a very obvious reason why Toyo didn't include that scene. It was done intentionally and deliberately. He wanted to keep SSG relevant by making it an active form and planned ahead. Goku didn't absorb SSG's power in the manga, period. Anything else is headcanon.

As for the guidebook. Super's guidebook would prob not include a lot of powerscaling details. And if it did, it would prob just contradict itself with the show and cause more shitstorm towards fans.
Except that is is completely false. SSG still remained pretty much dead in terms of merchandise with the brunt of most DBS merch still going to SSGSS. SSG hasn't even made the Son Goku FEStival line yet for god's sake yet this July SSGSS will have made that line 3 times...

You people really love to blame merchandise on everything but don't ever check your facts.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by The Monkey King » Wed May 09, 2018 2:31 pm

PFM18 wrote:Do you think that an upcoming DBS guidebook or any supplementary material would ever reveal how much the weights Goku and Vegeta were using when they trained with Whis were? Or the weight of their weighted suits that they used when training with Whis? I think it would be a fun power-scaling type piece of information.
Knowing Dragon Ball the numbers would be stupidly low :lol:
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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Meshack » Wed May 09, 2018 2:38 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
Meshack wrote:Toyotarou only had a certain amount of pages at the time, far less than he has now. There’s no way he could have concluded that battle and teased Freeza’s return with less than 20 pages. He already skipped tons of stuff that was in the movie and TV animated version. Toyotarou had tons to juggle with and didn’t have time to explain it. Everything is the comic basically goes with the movie and animated version just not seen. Just because he didn’t get to explain it means it didn’t happen?
SSG is an active transformation. Absorbing SSG is either fan canon or has been retconned.

Toei did it and guess what, they ignored SSG for almost 100 episodes, and only started using it after Toyotaro's usage of the form was already in existence. Toei backtracked and retconned it cause they probably realized they could sell more toys by shoehorning it in for whatever random reason.

There's a very obvious reason why Toyo didn't include that scene. It was done intentionally and deliberately. He wanted to keep SSG relevant by making it an active form and planned ahead. Goku didn't absorb SSG's power in the manga, period. Anything else is headcanon.

As for the guidebook. Super's guidebook would prob not include a lot of powerscaling details. And if it did, it would prob just contradict itself with the show and cause more shitstorm towards fans.
Except that is is completely false. SSG still remained pretty much dead in terms of merchandise with the brunt of most DBS merch still going to SSGSS. SSG hasn't even made the Son Goku FEStival line yet for god's sake yet this July SSGSS will have made that line 3 times...

You people really love to blame merchandise on everything but don't ever check your facts.
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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 09, 2018 2:56 pm

Saturnine wrote:There have indeed been retcons.

At first, Goku and Vegeta were supposed to have absorbed the godly power into base. When a Saiyan in such a state goes SSj, the result is SSj Blue. This portrayal was shown in the BoG and Potaufeu arcs, as well as some odd "filler" episodes, like Goku vs Beerus in Monaka's disguise.

But soon afterwards, like in the U6 tournament, this approach appeared to have been abandoned, and the regular SSj forms made a comeback. By that point it was clear that Goku and Vegeta aren't being portrayed as having SSj God power in base. Unless you find it believable that base Cabba, who'd never even heard of regular SSj, was stronger than SSj God - a tier of power considered by Goku to be not achievable through regular means.

Same goes for Future Trunks. The old SSj forms were brought back for marketing reasons as well as to create a more engaging show. The writers probably realized that replacing like 5 power tiers marked by transformations with just the base form where Goku just modifies his PL wouldn't make for a very exciting watch. And then even SSj God itself was brought back, to me the final nail in the coffin to the notion of the god power remaining absorbed into base.

Unless you really think SSj God first merges into your base, and then gives you the same multiplier over that new base. In that case, heavens have mercy on you
SSG is the manifestation of using God Ki as a pseudo base form. Hence the hair being the same as Base.

SSGSS is the manifestation of a godly Super Saiyan form. Hence the hair being the SSJ style.

There was never anything contradicted by this at all. Goku's power infused the power he experienced in such a way that his SSJ form was equivalent to his SSG form after BoG. hence all of his forms gained an astronomically large boost. No such retcon exists because Goku's base was never supposed to be stronger than SSG. That would undermine the entire plot of BoG wanted to find a SSG to be his rival if any of Cabba, Frost, or Magetta would all be as strong as stronger than SSG. All of the 3 aforementioned fighters are stronger than base but weaker than SSJ.(Prior to Cabba reaching SSJ himself) So all of them are weaker than SSG. Goku said he didn't feel any weaker once he dropped into SSJ there was that whole scene where this happened. There was never any mention of his base having the same strength as SSG. If Goku had absorbed the power into his base, then his SSJ form against Beerus would have been 50x stronger than SSG, btu that wasn't the case. Goku's base went from being weaker than Freeza and then it was far far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. His base still got a sizable boost but it was never as strong as SSG.

to quantify this let me give you an idea of what I am saying by my estimations.

Beerus Arc:
SSJ3 Goku: 1
SSG Goku: 20,000

SSJ Goku(post-SSG): 22,000
Base Goku: 440


SSG ~ SSJ(post BoG)
NOT SSG ~ Base(post BoG)

The only way Goku's base could be stronger than SSG is if he got more than 50x stronger since BoG. So yeah there was never a retcon because Goku in base being stronger than SSG was never actually established in the first place.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 09, 2018 5:51 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Rakurai wrote:
Meshack wrote:Toyotarou only had a certain amount of pages at the time, far less than he has now. There’s no way he could have concluded that battle and teased Freeza’s return with less than 20 pages. He already skipped tons of stuff that was in the movie and TV animated version. Toyotarou had tons to juggle with and didn’t have time to explain it. Everything is the comic basically goes with the movie and animated version just not seen. Just because he didn’t get to explain it means it didn’t happen?
SSG is an active transformation. Absorbing SSG is either fan canon or has been retconned.

Toei did it and guess what, they ignored SSG for almost 100 episodes, and only started using it after Toyotaro's usage of the form was already in existence. Toei backtracked and retconned it cause they probably realized they could sell more toys by shoehorning it in for whatever random reason.

There's a very obvious reason why Toyo didn't include that scene. It was done intentionally and deliberately. He wanted to keep SSG relevant by making it an active form and planned ahead. Goku didn't absorb SSG's power in the manga, period. Anything else is headcanon.

As for the guidebook. Super's guidebook would prob not include a lot of powerscaling details. And if it did, it would prob just contradict itself with the show and cause more shitstorm towards fans.
Except that is is completely false. SSG still remained pretty much dead in terms of merchandise with the brunt of most DBS merch still going to SSGSS. SSG hasn't even made the Son Goku FEStival line yet for god's sake yet this July SSGSS will have made that line 3 times...

You people really love to blame merchandise on everything but don't ever check your facts.
I gave a conditional statement that they probably reintroduced it to sell more toys. I don't 100% know. If there's no evidence to support it, then I will admit I'm wrong. But can you blame me, with all of these new transformations and the randomness of it.

That doesn't change the fact that Toei still shoehorned it in after being absent for almost 100 episodes without so much as a surprise from the cast. It literally did nothing to move the plot forward and any other existing transformation would've fulfilled the same role. It's a retcon since it goes against what was established from the BoG arc.
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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by GigaDrill » Wed May 09, 2018 6:45 pm

I think it would sell quite a bit of money when it comes out, and the people writing it might think to include some trivia such as those facts

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed May 09, 2018 11:06 pm

PFM18 wrote:So yeah there was never a retcon because Goku in base being stronger than SSG was never actually established in the first place.
This is patently untrue. Dragon Ball Volume 'F', Dokkan Battle, and Toyotaro's Resurrection 'F' tie-in manga are all very explicit about showing that Goku learned to obtain the power of a Super Saiyan God in just his ordinary base form, additionally establishing that transforming into a Super Saiyan while using that power results in a "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" (or Super Saiyan Blue). Those materials further corroborate the correct translation of Goku's stated definition for Blue, which was also present in Super and not just the film.

This means one of two things -- either Goku has two base states, which is highly unlikely, or retroactive continuity was applied somewhere along the line, which goes along with what Saturnine was saying. Both the Super manga's more streamlined approach and some supplementary materials for the anime lend support for the retcon interpretation.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 09, 2018 11:47 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:So yeah there was never a retcon because Goku in base being stronger than SSG was never actually established in the first place.
This is patently untrue. Dragon Ball Volume 'F', Dokkan Battle, and Toyotaro's Resurrection 'F' tie-in manga are all very explicit about showing that Goku learned to obtain the power of a Super Saiyan God in just his ordinary base form, additionally establishing that transforming into a Super Saiyan while using that power results in a "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" (or Super Saiyan Blue). Those materials further corroborate the correct translation of Goku's stated definition for Blue, which was also present in Super and not just the film.

This means one of two things -- either Goku has two base states, which is highly unlikely, or retroactive continuity was applied somewhere along the line, which goes along with what Saturnine was saying. Both the Super manga's more streamlined approach and some supplementary materials for the anime lend support for the retcon interpretation.
So you are referencing a game and a manga that was meant for the movie? That means absolutely nothing. The movies are their own thing and OBVIOUSLY they were retconned because they were literally overwritten by the respective arcs in DBS. The DBS anime never established that SSG<Base so it showing things that may imply otherwise does not contradict anything because it was never established in the first place.

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