Do you think a guidebook would...

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 12, 2018 11:12 am

Marlowe89 wrote:You're completely missing the point. I'm not saying it invalidates/retcons them, but it does override them. As both movies demonstrate, Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God into his Super Saiyan form and would later be able to utilize that same power "without changing form" at all according to the supplemental materials for Resurrection 'F'. As confirmed by Episode 24's dialogue, the same is obviously true for the anime. Goku remarking on Vegeta's growth is still entirely intact because Vegeta never transformed or absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God during BoG and had a lot of catching up to do as a result.
Yeah this premise that he could utilize SSG in his base was not confirmed in episode 24's incredibly ambiguous dialogue explaining what SSB is. It doesn't explcitly state or even clearly imply at any point that Base ~ SSG. The phrasing that Goku used, like I said before still makes sense if you use the notion that Goku utilizes his old SSG power in his normal SSJ state. That way he still has the SSG power and can find a super saiyan version of it in SSB. Vegeta was stronger than Goku, and he was uncrecognizable from his strength before, but this does not in any way indicate that Vegeta is stronger than SSG in base.
Marlowe89 wrote:The actual Japanese wording isn't vague at all, and those materials for the movie provide further context for Blue's description which is present in both the film and its TV adaptation. Goku's dialogue isn't suddenly going to mean something completely different in Super, nor is that possible in the first place because the phrasing itself is too specific in its intended meaning. That part wasn't overwritten at all within the RoF arc.

I'm not sure how many different ways I can repeat this. I can make definitive statements about it because the statement I'm referring to is definitive in itself.
Yeah you keep linking that translation but it still stands as a very vague statement. All that is noted is that the characters can now have the power of SSG and they have "the Super Saiyan" ability on top of it. The materials for the movie not only don't actually provide any more specific or detailed information, but it is irrelevant in regards to Super. The dialogue doesn't "suddenly mean something completely different in Super", because what you are implying doesn't actually definitively state what you are implying. It is essentially there to establish that Goku and Vegeta learned to harness the power of SSG, without actually using the SSG form, and that they have a new form that is much stronger than that. The fact that normal Super Saiyan can still be used shows that your interpretation is incorrect, and that the idea that their base had power beyond SSG, was not actually the case. Additionally, had this been the case then Goku would have gone SSB against Beerus when obviously he didn't. Goku's transformation of turning into a golden SSJ would have fit your definition of what the SSB transformation is, but it didn't happen that way. As seen in Whis's staff it was a result of being able to utilize ki control properly not being able to go SSJ after having the power of SSG.
Marlowe89 wrote:It's a totally nonsensical assumption given Goku's phrasing, and I can assure you that the intended meaning of Goku's statement wasn't "Wow Vegeta, you're so strong I almost didn't recognize you... but only if we're using the same form!" -- that isn't even remotely colloquially coherent. The base Vegeta in that scene was unrecognizable to him in general, not """unrecognizable""" only on the condition that Goku doesn't transform (whatever that means).
You appear to be missing my point. His ki IS unrecognizable in general and not in a specific form. His current base form power is unrecognizable from his previous power before whether it be in SSJ2 or whatever. It obviously isn't only on the condition that transformations aren't involved. HOWEVER, when Goku refers to Vegeta surpassing him then it means that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. Stronger than Goku's base, or stronger when they are both in SSJ, or whatever the case may be, because the multipliers are the same. The comment does not imply that Vegeta has surpassed SSG in anyway. For that to be established then Goku would need to have been more specific.
People have already addressed the U6 arc and its relation to the retcon in this very thread, so I'm not sure why you would even bring this up unless you're just being deliberately obtuse about it.
Again, you are missing the point. The way that you rationalized it would require a retcon to be the case because it would contradict what you believe to have established. The point is the fact that the very next arc after this establishment of SSG in base, it would have to contradict the events that you thought were established, shows that your interpretation of the events is probably not correct and should be rationalized another way. The fact that the golden haired SSJ form had the SSG power infused within it, and had the power of SSG, fits with the events that followed the ROF arc and with what was established in BoG. How you don't see that as evidence that you have misinterpreted things is beyond me.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:11 pm

PFM18 wrote: It is essentially there to establish that Goku and Vegeta learned to harness the power of SSG, without actually using the SSG form, and that they have a new form that is much stronger than that.
That "new form", as specified by the dialogue's phrasing, is the Super Saiyan version of Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God. There is nothing vague about this statement whatsoever, and the root description couldn't have been referring to Goku's Super Saiyan form because (for the final time) there's already a Super Saiyan modifier for it. The root also makes no reference to Super Saiyan itself and simply calls the state "Saiyan", which is self-explanatory.

This exact piece of dialogue was also presented word-for-word in the film, which the supplemental materials provided additional context for by showing/stating that Goku and Vegeta are able to utilize this power in their base forms and then change into SSGSS by becoming Super Saiyan. This means those materials directly tie into Goku's stated definition for the form, which was completely unchanged for Super, which means you would need to suppose that it somehow meant something arbitrarily different for the TV adaptation despite using the same phrasing. Of course such an assumption is complete nonsense and definitely wasn't the intention of the writing staff.

Honestly, it's amazing that you continue to actively ignore how specific this phrasing actually is without being able to explain what supposedly makes it vague. Last time I'm repeating/explaining how this works, otherwise I'm just going to assume that the basic rules of linguistics are apparently over your head.
PFM18 wrote: HOWEVER, when Goku refers to Vegeta surpassing him then it means that Vegeta is stronger than Goku.
Colloquially speaking, that's exactly why Goku couldn't have been comparing just their base forms. Like every other character in the series making remarks of this kind, he's not qualifying that with any kind of arbitrary power-up condition. He's calling BASE Vegeta's power unrecognizable; he's saying that BASE Vegeta might have surpassed him, and that's without regard to form since Goku has (as far as he knows) access to higher transformations like Super Saiyan 3. If Goku wasn't taking his own best power into account and still had access to his golden Super Saiyan stages, it would have potentially made the statement redundant or false.
PFM18 wrote: Again, you are missing the point. The way that you rationalized it would require a retcon to be the case because it would contradict what you believe to have established.
This doesn't show that I'm missing the point, it shows that you're completely failing to comprehend the scope of the argument. Our chain of replies started in the first place because I was backing up Saturnine's point, which was that a retcon would have needed to occur between the RoF and U6 arcs.

Yes, it would have required a retcon to be the case. That retcon happened within Super, not at any point before.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:35 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:that "new form", as specified by the dialogue's phrasing, is the Super Saiyan version of Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God. There is nothing vague about this statement whatsoever, and the root description couldn't have been referring to Goku's Super Saiyan form because (for the final time) there's already a Super Saiyan modifier for it. The root also makes no reference to Super Saiyan itself and simply calls the state "Saiyan", which is self-explanatory.

This exact piece of dialogue was also presented word-for-word in the film, which the supplemental materials provided additional context for by showing/stating that Goku and Vegeta are able to utilize this power in their base forms and then change into SSGSS by becoming Super Saiyan. This means those materials directly tie into Goku's stated definition for the form, which was completely unchanged for Super, which means you would need to suppose that it somehow meant something arbitrarily different for the TV adaptation despite using the same phrasing. Of course such an assumption is complete nonsense and definitely wasn't the intention of the writing staff.

Honestly, it's amazing that you continue to actively ignore how specific this phrasing actually is without being able to explain what supposedly makes it vague. Last time I'm repeating/explaining how this works, otherwise I'm just going to assume that the basic rules of linguistics are apparently over your head.
There is, at the very least something that is unclear about the statement because this "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" was established during BoG to be the normal SSJ form. Beerus said it, Goku said it, that is what was established in the story. This phrase Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God is vague because of what was established in BoG. You could interpret it as to mean the Golden haired form where they had the SSG power or, because there already is a SSJ modifier in the phrasing Goku used you could theorize that this means the base form even though that wasn't established previously. It is vague because during this time either of the two ideas would have made sense. But the latter premise can be dismissed as soon as you see the U6 arc. It would no longer make sense with the following events so the first "theory" I mentioned needs to be adopted. Basically the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" was never clearly defined so the phrase itself is vague. The phrase or idea of being able to access the power of a SSG without transforming was not established in DBS. This may have been the case in the movies but DBS never establishes it and the supplemental material to the movie does not apply to the DBS anime retelling where they have an entire series in mind. Therefore, you could assume that the idea of "a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" is still the normal SSJ form like Beerus and Goku established in episode 14.
Marlowe89 wrote:This doesn't show that I'm missing the point, it shows that you're completely failing to comprehend the scope of the argument. Our chain of replies started in the first place because I was backing up Saturnine's point, which was that a retcon would have needed to occur between the RoF and U6 arcs.
I am well aware of the scope of this argument. You are convinced that there must be a retcon between ROF and U6 based on your interpretation of the events rather than considering that maybe you misinterpreted the events and the story doesn't actually contradict itself at all. I am saying that based on what what was established in BoG and ROF, there is no reason why normal SSJ should be a problem to be accessed or why the Base Saiyans would be stronger than SSG from BoG.

I am just going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 12, 2018 1:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:You are convinced that there must be a retcon between ROF and U6 based on your interpretation of the events rather than considering that maybe you misinterpreted the events and the story doesn't actually contradict itself at all.
I'm not convinced that there was a retcon based on subjective interpretation; I'm convinced that there was a retcon based on dialogue that was worded specifically enough to effectively rule out any possible reference to Goku's yellow Super Saiyan form.

The reason I keep bringing up the movie's supplemental materials is precisely because those instances were made to complement Goku's phrasing in the movie, and if that same sufficiently-explicit phrasing is later repeated in the anime, the only logical conclusion is that they apply to Super as well. The simple fact of the matter is that you can't arbitrarily pick and choose what you think was "overwritten" between the film and the show just because there are some differences, especially when there are also several core consistencies between the two. This just happens to be one of them.

We can certainly agree to disagree, but I'm definitely not convinced that something like this is open to interpretation or otherwise unclear at all. The only alternative is that you assume it was a mistake for the writers to leave this description in the show without changing its wording.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 12, 2018 1:39 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:You are convinced that there must be a retcon between ROF and U6 based on your interpretation of the events rather than considering that maybe you misinterpreted the events and the story doesn't actually contradict itself at all.
I'm not convinced that there was a retcon based on subjective interpretation; I'm convinced that there was a retcon based on dialogue that was worded specifically enough to effectively rule out any possible reference to Goku's yellow Super Saiyan form.

The reason I keep bringing up the movie's supplemental materials is precisely because those instances were made to complement Goku's phrasing in the movie, and if that same sufficiently-explicit phrasing is later repeated in the anime, the only logical conclusion is that they apply to Super as well. The simple fact of the matter is that you can't arbitrarily pick and choose what you think was "overwritten" between the film and the show just because there are some differences, especially when there are also several core consistencies between the two. This just happens to be one of them.

We can certainly agree to disagree, but I'm definitely not convinced that something like this is open to interpretation or otherwise unclear at all. The only alternative is that you assume it was a mistake for the writers to leave this description in the show without changing its wording.
They left the same wording in the show that doesn't definitively state anything. It is very vague as I established earlier. Like I explained earlier, there is plenty of reason to believe the yellow haired SSJ form was being referred to as the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" because that was established in BoG and nothing during ROF implies that not to be the case. But to interpret it differently isn't necessarily inherently wrong until you realize the events that follow contradict that interpretation. The retellings are there to do just that: retell the story,a new, slightly differerent story that built the framework for the follwing 100 episodes. Considering supplementary material for a movie and applying them to DBS is irrational. The DBS anime establishes SSJ ~ SSG during BoG and that explanation is carrried into ROF unless for some reason you decide to apply supplementary material to it for some reason.

Honestly I am not even reallly convinced that you read my whole post before you respond based on your responses.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 12, 2018 1:57 pm

PFM18 wrote: Honestly I am not even reallly convinced that you read my whole post before you respond based on your responses.
I only respond to the most pertinent parts in your posts, since you tend to bring up points I've either already addressed or simply aren't relevant to the argument.

I'm completely convinced that you don't read (or at least don't bother to comprehend) the points in my replies, though. I've repeatedly demonstrated how the wording of Blue's definition is specific enough to completely eliminate the possibility of any reference to Super Saiyan Goku, and I've also repeatedly explained how the aforementioned materials do nothing more than supplement the description in the film that was repeated word-for-word in Episode 24. The statement's meaning isn't suddenly going to be changed for no reason for the movie's TV adaptation -- that doesn't make even the slightest amount of sense.

We're just going around in circles at this point, and I think I've already said what I needed to. Anyone who actually understands how linguistic structure and colloquialism works will understand my posts, and that's good enough for me.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 12, 2018 2:10 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Honestly I am not even reallly convinced that you read my whole post before you respond based on your responses.
I only respond to the most pertinent parts in your posts, since you tend to bring up points I've either already addressed or simply aren't relevant to the argument.

I'm completely convinced that you don't read (or at least don't bother to comprehend) the points in my replies, though. I've repeatedly demonstrated how the wording of Blue's definition is specific enough to completely eliminate the possibility of any reference to Super Saiyan Goku, and I've also repeatedly explained how the aforementioned materials do nothing more than supplement the description in the film that was repeated word-for-word in Episode 24. The statement's meaning isn't suddenly going to be changed for no reason for the movie's TV adaptation -- that doesn't make even the slightest amount of sense.

We're just going around in circles at this point, and I think I've already said what I needed to. Anyone who actually understands how linguistic structure and colloquialism works will understand my posts, and that's good enough for me.
I have specifically addressed all of your points so I have no idea how you could conclude I don't read or comprehend what you say. You just for some reason have some sort of weird bias towards there being a retcon in the series when the show gives you absolutely no reason to believe that is the case.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Saturnine » Mon May 14, 2018 1:43 am

Oh but it does give you reasons to believe there was a retcon. You just refuse to see them.

Unfortunately, all of these reasons appear to be out-of-universe, so you have to be willing to think in these categories to understand it.

The paradigm shift of there being only a base with the full power of SSj God and its SSj state (Blue) worked for a single movie, but it wouldn't have been exciting to watch long term. The writers may also have thought that kids would lose track of how powerful Goku currently was if there was no transformation to indicate it (though in the end they made a mess of that too, particularly in the ToP).

Guys like Cabba, Frost etc couldn't have been as powerful as a SSj God. You or part of you realizes this, so you came up with this cop-out where base is only 1/50 of SSj God, and the power is equalled in SSj . But again - the new base was clearly stated to have all the power of SSj God, and Blue was the SSj state of that. You can't have an arbitrarily high base that gets boosted once again when SSj God is accessed.

For all we know,SSj God may not even have been multiplicative, but incremental - an increment that just happened to be so huge that it rendered "the rest" of the non-godly power inconsequential.

And no - there is no way Cabba is leagues beyond SSj3 Goku from the Buu arc, simply because there is no reason for there to be such a huge leap in power. Goku, Vegeta and Cabba may have been at 10x their Buu arc selves and no one would accuse you of lowballing them. That is provided they accept the "saiyan beyond god" concept was meant to be retired.

The Potaufeu arc is an example of what happens when the writers don't get the memo in time.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Tue May 15, 2018 5:42 pm

Saturnine wrote:Oh but it does give you reasons to believe there was a retcon. You just refuse to see them.

Unfortunately, all of these reasons appear to be out-of-universe, so you have to be willing to think in these categories to understand it.

The paradigm shift of there being only a base with the full power of SSj God and its SSj state (Blue) worked for a single movie, but it wouldn't have been exciting to watch long term. The writers may also have thought that kids would lose track of how powerful Goku currently was if there was no transformation to indicate it (though in the end they made a mess of that too, particularly in the ToP).

For all we know,SSj God may not even have been multiplicative, but incremental - an increment that just happened to be so huge that it rendered "the rest" of the non-godly power inconsequential.

And no - there is no way Cabba is leagues beyond SSj3 Goku from the Buu arc, simply because there is no reason for there to be such a huge leap in power. Goku, Vegeta and Cabba may have been at 10x their Buu arc selves and no one would accuse you of lowballing them. That is provided they accept the "saiyan beyond god" concept was meant to be retired.

The Potaufeu arc is an example of what happens when the writers don't get the memo in time.
So you have given no In-Universe explanations and only speculation of what you think should or shouldn't be the case?
Guys like Cabba, Frost etc couldn't have been as powerful as a SSj God. You or part of you realizes this, so you came up with this cop-out where base is only 1/50 of SSj God, and the power is equalled in SSj . But again - the new base was clearly stated to have all the power of SSj God, and Blue was the SSj state of that. You can't have an arbitrarily high base that gets boosted once again when SSj God is accessed.
I agree with you here as I specifically mentioned something similar in my previous posts. Cabba, Frost and Magetta are not as strong as a SSG because it would invalidate the entire plot of the BoG arc where Beerus is interested in fighting somebody as strong as a SSG because it would be a fun fight for him. Why would he be so excited if he could just go to Universe 6 and fight any of Cabba, Frost, or Magetta that were in the tournament? I did not make up some "cop-out" because I realized that. That makes no sense. The fact of the matter is that Goku and Beerus had their conversation and Goku said that he wasn't any weaker when he was in his SSJ form. and not in his base form. Beerus said he had infused the power of his SSG form into himself and it became a part of him when Goku was in his SSJ form. If Goku's base form had been the same as SSG, Goku would have gone SSJ and become 50x stronger, and he certainly would have noticed. But he didn't notice because at the time his power was the same as a SSJ as it was before as a SSJG. He surpassed SSG, as shown by his performance and in the episode title, in his SSJ form. Then Vegeta surpasses this Goku that had his SSJ slightly stronger than SSG, and the plot continues with no indication that this had been changed. Hence why Goku and Vegeta's base were shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, Suppressed Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Fit Buu. None of which would have been possible had Goku and Vegeta not gained a tremendous boost.

Really your only way to rationalize Cabba not being that strong is that you don't like it. You say there is no reason for an increase in power, but by the time of the Universe 6 Arc, SSJ3 Goku from the Buu Arc was rendered completely irrelevant and it wouldn't even represent a large leap in power from before. Goku and Vegeta were extremely powerful and Cabba and Frost could compete with them so that logically means that they are far beyond Buu Arc levels of strength. They were antagonists that appeared much later, and in Dragon Ball the next antagonist is always stronger than the last that is just how that works. The only exception is Beerus and the stories that followed. Everybody gets progressively stronger very fast especially in DBS. It would make no sense if their opponents were so weak that they couldn't fodderize the now irrelevant Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku.

"the new base was clearly stated to have all the power of SSj God" Yeah actually it wasn't. In Dragon Ball Super there was no such mention that this was the case at any point in the story and some people argue that it was shown but the only time that it was explicitly stated was in promotional material for the ROF movie, which like you said, that worked for a single movie, but then it was switched so that all the other forms could still be used. The promotional material for the movie is not relevant to the DBS series. The retellings made a few power scaling decisions and this is one of them.(Beerus wasn't using 70% of his power this time he was using an undesignated amount that was probably less than 1%) But Goku and Vegeta are still ridiculously extremely strong compared to what they were in the Buu arc. (By my estimations their normal SSJ forms got over 100,000x stronger from their Buu Arc counterparts during ROF, thanks to Whis's training and what not.


The Potaufeu arc is an example of the writers being consistent with what was established previously in the story. No idea how you came to another conclusion.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:26 pm

PFM18 wrote:Yeah actually it wasn't.
But it objectively was. I have no idea why you're so adamant in denying that the wording of Goku's definition for Blue in itself rules out the possibility of referencing his Super Saiyan form for the simple reason that you can't have a Super Saiyan version of something that's already Super Saiyan. "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" is exactly what it implies -- a Saiyan (not a Super Saiyan) with the power of SSG.

The supplemental materials for the movie actually didn't add anything new to the table, they just provided additional context for a statement that was already present in the film. Since that statement was repeated in the TV anime, the materials would have to apply to that as well. Again, the only alternative is that you argue the scriptwriters made a mistake by leaving that piece of dialogue in the show unchanged.

You are either deliberately ignoring all of this or (for some reason) the dialogue's sentence structure escapes you even when it's explained to you in painstaking detail. I'm guessing it's the former in your case, since you keep appealing to other arcs and scenes even though that doesn't have anything to do with the way a particular statement is worded.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 16, 2018 1:06 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Yeah actually it wasn't.
But it objectively was. I have no idea why you're so adamant in denying that the wording of Goku's definition for Blue in itself rules out the possibility of referencing his Super Saiyan form for the simple reason that you can't have a Super Saiyan version of something that's already Super Saiyan. "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" is exactly what it implies -- a Saiyan (not a Super Saiyan) with the power of SSG.

The supplemental materials for the movie actually didn't add anything new to the table, they just provided additional context for a statement that was already present in the film. Since that statement was repeated in the TV anime, the materials would have to apply to that as well. Again, the only alternative is that you argue the scriptwriters made a mistake by leaving that piece of dialogue in the show unchanged.

You are either deliberately ignoring all of this or (for some reason) the dialogue's sentence structure escapes you even when it's explained to you in painstaking detail. I'm guessing it's the former in your case, since you keep appealing to other arcs and scenes even though that doesn't have anything to do with the way a particular statement is worded.
You are literally basing your entire argument around one singular sentence quote. The entire series following this quote contradicts it but you would rather blame the series and say that there was a retcon rather than admitting that you interpreted it wrong. In BoG the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" was established to be golden SSJ. that is the new state that has the power of a SSG, Beerus, Goku, and the narrator made this abundantly clear. Since this interpretation isn't backed up by much of anything in the series, it is more rational to conclude that there is a "Super Saiyan version of something that is already Super Saiyan." I mean there's no reason why this shouldn't be possible. The official name "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" even has the name "Super Saiyan" in it appearing twice. And you say "A Saiyan (not a Super Saiyan" as though these two conditions are mutually exclusive. As though you can't be a Super Saiyan and a Saiyan at the same time. This reasoning makes 0 sense.

The retellings set the groundwork with an entire series following it in mind rather than the movies that were supposed to be standalone. Adjustments had to made and they were. The way that the supplemental material portrayed it, normal SSJ would have never appeared again in the series. That would have been stupid and so they changed this to accomodate the fact that ROF was part of an 131 episode series and not just an hour long film.

I am not "ignoring all of this". You say "all of this" as though you have more than one piece of evidence. You don't. You literally only reference one quote and that is your entire argument. If there was actually a retcon then Goku's base being shown to be as strong or stronger than: Final Form Freeza, Suppressed Beerus, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Fit Buu would not have been possible. If this "absorbed base" interpretation was the case then it would invalidate U6 and contradict the scene where Beerus and Goku talk about the power infused in Goku's SSJ form.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed May 16, 2018 5:44 pm

PFM18 wrote:In BoG the "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" was established to be golden SSJ. that is the new state that has the power of a SSG, Beerus, Goku, and the narrator made this abundantly clear.
Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God into his yellow Super Saiyan form is established in the movie as well, so that doesn't change anything. The only thing within Resurrection 'F' (the film) that contradicts it is the description Goku attributed to Super Saiyan Blue, which is also present in Super.

Therefore, there's no confirmed difference between the BoG/RoF movies and their TV adaptations in that regard. You'll probably claim that the supplemental materials are the difference, but since they exist outside of the films and were only contextualizing a piece of dialogue that was later repeated in the show, your assertion would be unlikely by default.
PFM18 wrote: I mean there's no reason why this shouldn't be possible.
It's impossible because it's semantically redundant. It makes no sense to have a Super Saiyan version of something already a Super Saiyan, but it makes perfect sense to have a Super Saiyan version of a (base) Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God, as the film initially states and as other materials clearly corroborate.

You keep pointing out that I'm bringing up just one quote, but that's all I really need. It suffices for establishing what it intended to convey.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:It's impossible because it's semantically redundant. It makes no sense to have a Super Saiyan version of something already a Super Saiyan, but it makes perfect sense to have a Super Saiyan version of a (base) Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God, as the film initially states and as other materials clearly corroborate.

You keep pointing out that I'm bringing up just one quote, but that's all I really need. It suffices for establishing what it intended to convey.
Ok great it may be redundant but so is the very name of the form "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" so I don't see how redundancy is particularly important in this case. It may not make sense to have a Super Saiyan version of something that is already a Super Saiyan, but I mean it still aligns with the actual name of the form and it also doesn't make sense to have this SSG power to be absorbed into your base form because that means that not only is there a 50x larger gap between Beerus and Goku that was portrayed to not be a tremendous difference, but it also implies that Beerus is a complete idiot and could have gone and fought any of Cabba, Frost or Magetta and gotten a better fight out of them. And it makes more sense than it being established that apparently if these godly base type characters go Super Saiyan then they go SSB when they go normal SSJ throughout the story.

Besides, the actual form of SSB was gone into more detail when God ki and this realm in Whis's staff was established. This harnessing of God ki both throughout the training and in Whis's staff was how they achieved the new form not by some arbitrary absorption of SSG into their base and then going SSJ.

The only real fault within this is that the supplementary material contradicts it when it describes this form that fans started calling "Saiyan Beyond God." The problem is this only appears in the supplementary material for the movie and not in DBS.(I know you already said I was going to say this but still)

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Marlowe89
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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed May 16, 2018 8:06 pm

PFM18 wrote: Ok great it may be redundant but so is the very name of the form "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" so I don't see how redundancy is particularly important in this case.
The meaning behind "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" was actually explained in Dokkan Battle -- after Whis instructed Goku to try going Super Saiyan, Goku said that by doing so he would become the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, to which Whis replied that was a mouthful and suggested Goku call it "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" instead as a shortened version of Goku's description. The name itself might sound redundant, but isn't semantically redundant as long as you understand the origin behind it.

This was further shortened to Super Saiyan Blue, as explained in a scene within the Super manga.
PFM18 wrote: The only real fault within this is that the supplementary material contradicts it when it describes this form that fans started calling "Saiyan Beyond God." The problem is this only appears in the supplementary material for the movie and not in DBS.(I know you already said I was going to say this but still)
Yes, but regardless of whether it was meant for the film, it was still merely supplementing the definition that was already available within the movie and later repeated in the show. It's hard to call it "vague" if both the sentence structure and subsequent materials don't allow for more than one interpretation.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 16, 2018 8:25 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Ok great it may be redundant but so is the very name of the form "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" so I don't see how redundancy is particularly important in this case.
The meaning behind "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" was actually explained in Dokkan Battle -- after Whis instructed Goku to try going Super Saiyan, Goku said that by doing so he would become the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, to which Whis replied that was a mouthful and suggested Goku call it "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" instead as a shortened version of Goku's description. The name itself might sound redundant, but isn't semantically redundant as long as you understand the origin behind it.

This was further shortened to Super Saiyan Blue, as explained in a scene within the Super manga.
PFM18 wrote: The only real fault within this is that the supplementary material contradicts it when it describes this form that fans started calling "Saiyan Beyond God." The problem is this only appears in the supplementary material for the movie and not in DBS.(I know you already said I was going to say this but still)
Yes, but regardless of whether it was meant for the film, it was still merely supplementing the definition that was already available within the movie and later repeated in the show. It's hard to call it "vague" if both the sentence structure and subsequent materials don't allow for more than one interpretation.
The name "Super Saiyan" appearing twice within the name of the form kind of lends to my explanation I believe.

But it is vague since it does allow for more than one interpretation based on what had been explained previously in BoG.

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Re: Do you think a guidebook would...

Post by batistabus » Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm

If a guide did provide the weight, it would almost certainly be something made up from someone at Shueisha that wasn't Toriyama, thus making it a questionable piece of information for power-scalers.

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