Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Timetraveller » Thu May 24, 2018 9:22 am

lancerman wrote:Super made me realize why I always viewed GT as sort of fan servicey. You can tell Toriyama was involved in Super. That charm and that obvious simplicity is missing from GT. Also Super does the characters far better. Goku in Super is far more reminiscent of the Goku from the original series. GT's Goku is just a knock off of every Shonen hero ever.


I couldn't disagree more with the fan-servicey statement. GT barely had any fan service while Super was built around it. Super brought back Frieza (the most popular DBZ villain of all time) and gave him a massive power boost, gave us 2 of the first female super saiyans in the series, brought back Future Trunks (another fan favorite), tried to bring back Master Roshi, Tien and Krillin, had more transformations (mostly recolors), brought back old techniques like the mafuba and brought back Vegito (another fan favorite -- I'm seeing a pattern here). As explained in an interview for the top arc, they came up with the characters first then build the story around them prioritizing fan service over story telling.

What fan service did GT have? Bringing Gogeta back?

GT Goku's definitely more mature than his DB self but that's to be expected after close to 400 episodes (some character development). He's still a kid at heart but is more aware of the consequences of his actions. I thought Piccolo, Videl, Goten, Trunks (even Gohan) were far better represented in GT. They showed some character growth instead of being exact replicas of the DBZ selves or doing a 180 to the point of being unrecognizable in the case of Videl.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Rakurai » Thu May 24, 2018 11:52 am

lancerman wrote:Super made me realize why I always viewed GT as sort of fan servicey. You can tell Toriyama was involved in Super. That charm and that obvious simplicity is missing from GT. Also Super does the characters far better. Goku in Super is far more reminiscent of the Goku from the original series. GT's Goku is just a knock off of every Shonen hero ever.


The complete opposite. Super feels like a complete fanservice show.

Young Pilaf gang & TrunksxMai. Multiverse. Parallel Saiyan planet. Evil Goku. Return of F. Trunks. Super Saiyan rainbow colors. 17 being as strong as he is. Roshi being as important as he is. Goku White. Broly clone. Royal Sparkles transformation Vegeta.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby PFM18 » Thu May 24, 2018 5:10 pm

Now instead of depending on GT as my story after the contents of the Buu saga, I can now depend on Super as my post-Buu content. Now, GT doesn't have to "carry the load" as filling that role anymore, so I can see it as more of a cool little side story rather than being angry at how bad of sequel it was. It fills the role of "cool side story" a lot better than "sequel to DBZ" in my eyes. And now we can have our fun little debates on who is strongest between Super and GT characters. So in a way I see GT in a more positive light now.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby lancerman » Fri May 25, 2018 2:30 am

Timetraveller wrote:
lancerman wrote:Super made me realize why I always viewed GT as sort of fan servicey. You can tell Toriyama was involved in Super. That charm and that obvious simplicity is missing from GT. Also Super does the characters far better. Goku in Super is far more reminiscent of the Goku from the original series. GT's Goku is just a knock off of every Shonen hero ever.


I couldn't disagree more with the fan-servicey statement. GT barely had any fan service while Super was built around it. Super brought back Frieza (the most popular DBZ villain of all time) and gave him a massive power boost, gave us 2 of the first female super saiyans in the series, brought back Future Trunks (another fan favorite), tried to bring back Master Roshi, Tien and Krillin, had more transformations (mostly recolors), brought back old techniques like the mafuba and brought back Vegito (another fan favorite -- I'm seeing a pattern here). As explained in an interview for the top arc, they came up with the characters first then build the story around them prioritizing fan service over story telling.

What fan service did GT have? Bringing Gogeta back?

GT Goku's definitely more mature than his DB self but that's to be expected after close to 400 episodes (some character development). He's still a kid at heart but is more aware of the consequences of his actions. I thought Piccolo, Videl, Goten, Trunks (even Gohan) were far better represented in GT. They showed some character growth instead of being exact replicas of the DBZ selves or doing a 180 to the point of being unrecognizable in the case of Videl.


Super wasn't really fans servicy. It had it's own story. It referenced things from the past but it wasn't trying to be some weird epic thing to impress fanboys.

-First arc, go back to iconic child Goku
-Bring back Pilaf again. (okay Super did this)
-Make a teamup reminiscent of the original Dragonball Duo.
-Have Goku fight the race King Kai mentioned back in that filler episode with the Tuffles.
-Have a new version of Goku (SSJ4) fight a new version of Vegeta (baby Vegeta)
-Bring back the tail
-Bring back the Oozaru only this time he's gold
-Oh look let's take our Dr Gero knockoff that we created in the last arc and team him up with Dr Gero in hell.
-let's bring back 17 and give him this new form in a convoluted non sensical way.
-lets use this as an excuse for Goku and friends to fight all their old villains. Lets do a crappy Cell and Freeza team up while where at it that adds nothing but fan service to the movie (at least Super did something when they brought back Freeza).
-Remember that cool move from the last DBZ movie? We are going to bring it back to beat the villain.
-Oh it's the final arc, let's tie every single villain in it to a wish from the previous series.
-Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in movie 12 only this time SSJ4.
-Lets have him make the same mistake Gotenks made against Boo.
-Let's finish off this villain the same way we finished off Boo.

It was just generic crap that felt like fanfiction to desperately seek an audience. Baby was the most original thing it did and even that involved recycling filler from the Saiyan arc and sort of doing the Black Water Mist thing, and having Goku and Vegeta fight, oh and a Dr. Gero copycat was there.

And as far as Goku, people keep saying he was mature? He wasn't mature. He wasn't naive like Goku was in the last series, but that was more because he had no character at all and was like every other generic shonen character. There was no difference between him and Ash Ketchum when he was in kid form, and when he was an adult as SSJ4 he was just "badass anime Goku who was all serious all the time and looked like he was doing a Batman impression".

Videl was barely in each show. Gohan actually had some meaningful moments in Super, he had none in GT. Goten I'll give you I guess but I don't think one fight in the Baby arc really meant all that much. Piccolo had a bigger moment in the Baby arc, but that was his only major moment in the show. He actually was a far more active character in Super. And Trunks depends on if you are counting Future or not. Because anything Future did in Super was better than anything GT Trunks did by about 100 miles.

And then Vegeta got far more development, Gohan got more development, 17 and Freeza got infinitley more development. Future Trunks got more development than GT Trunks. Kuriren got more character focus and development as did 18. Roshi actually did things even if his development was a gag.

Then new characters. Did GT introduce anyone as notable as Beerus or Whis?

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Timetraveller » Fri May 25, 2018 7:12 am

lancerman wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
lancerman wrote:Super made me realize why I always viewed GT as sort of fan servicey. You can tell Toriyama was involved in Super. That charm and that obvious simplicity is missing from GT. Also Super does the characters far better. Goku in Super is far more reminiscent of the Goku from the original series. GT's Goku is just a knock off of every Shonen hero ever.


I couldn't disagree more with the fan-servicey statement. GT barely had any fan service while Super was built around it. Super brought back Frieza (the most popular DBZ villain of all time) and gave him a massive power boost, gave us 2 of the first female super saiyans in the series, brought back Future Trunks (another fan favorite), tried to bring back Master Roshi, Tien and Krillin, had more transformations (mostly recolors), brought back old techniques like the mafuba and brought back Vegito (another fan favorite -- I'm seeing a pattern here). As explained in an interview for the top arc, they came up with the characters first then build the story around them prioritizing fan service over story telling.

What fan service did GT have? Bringing Gogeta back?

GT Goku's definitely more mature than his DB self but that's to be expected after close to 400 episodes (some character development). He's still a kid at heart but is more aware of the consequences of his actions. I thought Piccolo, Videl, Goten, Trunks (even Gohan) were far better represented in GT. They showed some character growth instead of being exact replicas of the DBZ selves or doing a 180 to the point of being unrecognizable in the case of Videl.


Super wasn't really fans servicy. It had it's own story. It referenced things from the past but it wasn't trying to be some weird epic thing to impress fanboys.

-First arc, go back to iconic child Goku
-Bring back Pilaf again. (okay Super did this)
-Make a teamup reminiscent of the original Dragonball Duo.
-Have Goku fight the race King Kai mentioned back in that filler episode with the Tuffles.
-Have a new version of Goku (SSJ4) fight a new version of Vegeta (baby Vegeta)
-Bring back the tail
-Bring back the Oozaru only this time he's gold
-Oh look let's take our Dr Gero knockoff that we created in the last arc and team him up with Dr Gero in hell.
-let's bring back 17 and give him this new form in a convoluted non sensical way.
-lets use this as an excuse for Goku and friends to fight all their old villains. Lets do a crappy Cell and Freeza team up while where at it that adds nothing but fan service to the movie (at least Super did something when they brought back Freeza).
-Remember that cool move from the last DBZ movie? We are going to bring it back to beat the villain.
-Oh it's the final arc, let's tie every single villain in it to a wish from the previous series.
-Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in movie 12 only this time SSJ4.
-Lets have him make the same mistake Gotenks made against Boo.
-Let's finish off this villain the same way we finished off Boo.



Super wasn't really fan service-y? C'mon, dude. Really? The writers would disagree with you on that since a lot of the key decisions were pure fan service.

Very few of those things you listed were real fan service. I'm not saying GT was completely devoid of any fanservice (the Dragonfist and Gogeta were two of them) but there are different tiers of fan service. Can you really compare things like "making a teamup reminiscent of Dragonball Duo" to "bringing back the most popular characters in franchise history and making popular movie characters canon?" Fan service means something added to please fans. How many fans wanted an arc based on an obscure tv special (about the Tuffles) that was never dubbed vs how many fans wanted Future Trunks/Female Super Saiyans/Make Broly canon? There really is no comparison. I'm perfectly fine with fan service if it's executed properly, which wasn't the case with Super. Frieza went from SS1 to SSB in 3 months because he trained. Trunks got an unexplained power up to god level. Caulifla tingly backs. Broly was Broly (not explained). Heck, even Master Roshi became thousands of times stronger offscreen. That's fan service.

Maybe because you've used a completely different definition but I've no idea how you think an arc with villains created from the wishes from the previous series is fanservice. Fans never begged for an arc involving "the shadow dragons". How is Goku finishing off a villain in the same way that he has another villain fan service? You might be confusing story tie-ins with previous plot points as "fan service".

Also, many of what you've listed can be directly applied to Super. Let's bring back 17 but make him even stronger than Super 17 was in GT (even though 17 in GT was a fusion of 2 cyborgs) with no explanation at all.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby coola » Fri May 25, 2018 8:19 am

Yes, i prefer GT Goku to Super Goku as well, and i really disliked they brought Tien and Chiaotsu back to Super, there was no point what so ever (also, sorry to say, but Tien new VA sucks) personally, i view GT as Sonic 06, and Super as Sonic Boom, GT (like 06) had very interesting ideas, but some of tchem were poorly executed, still, you could see there was potential, Super (Boom) on the other hand, is just boring.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby lancerman » Fri May 25, 2018 10:08 am

Timetraveller wrote:
lancerman wrote:
Timetraveller wrote:
I couldn't disagree more with the fan-servicey statement. GT barely had any fan service while Super was built around it. Super brought back Frieza (the most popular DBZ villain of all time) and gave him a massive power boost, gave us 2 of the first female super saiyans in the series, brought back Future Trunks (another fan favorite), tried to bring back Master Roshi, Tien and Krillin, had more transformations (mostly recolors), brought back old techniques like the mafuba and brought back Vegito (another fan favorite -- I'm seeing a pattern here). As explained in an interview for the top arc, they came up with the characters first then build the story around them prioritizing fan service over story telling.

What fan service did GT have? Bringing Gogeta back?

GT Goku's definitely more mature than his DB self but that's to be expected after close to 400 episodes (some character development). He's still a kid at heart but is more aware of the consequences of his actions. I thought Piccolo, Videl, Goten, Trunks (even Gohan) were far better represented in GT. They showed some character growth instead of being exact replicas of the DBZ selves or doing a 180 to the point of being unrecognizable in the case of Videl.


Super wasn't really fans servicy. It had it's own story. It referenced things from the past but it wasn't trying to be some weird epic thing to impress fanboys.

-First arc, go back to iconic child Goku
-Bring back Pilaf again. (okay Super did this)
-Make a teamup reminiscent of the original Dragonball Duo.
-Have Goku fight the race King Kai mentioned back in that filler episode with the Tuffles.
-Have a new version of Goku (SSJ4) fight a new version of Vegeta (baby Vegeta)
-Bring back the tail
-Bring back the Oozaru only this time he's gold
-Oh look let's take our Dr Gero knockoff that we created in the last arc and team him up with Dr Gero in hell.
-let's bring back 17 and give him this new form in a convoluted non sensical way.
-lets use this as an excuse for Goku and friends to fight all their old villains. Lets do a crappy Cell and Freeza team up while where at it that adds nothing but fan service to the movie (at least Super did something when they brought back Freeza).
-Remember that cool move from the last DBZ movie? We are going to bring it back to beat the villain.
-Oh it's the final arc, let's tie every single villain in it to a wish from the previous series.
-Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in movie 12 only this time SSJ4.
-Lets have him make the same mistake Gotenks made against Boo.
-Let's finish off this villain the same way we finished off Boo.



Super wasn't really fan service-y? C'mon, dude. Really? The writers would disagree with you on that since a lot of the key decisions were pure fan service.

Very few of those things you listed were real fan service. I'm not saying GT was completely devoid of any fanservice (the Dragonfist and Gogeta were two of them) but there are different tiers of fan service. Can you really compare things like "making a teamup reminiscent of Dragonball Duo" to "bringing back the most popular characters in franchise history and making popular movie characters canon?" Fan service means something added to please fans. How many fans wanted an arc based on an obscure tv special (about the Tuffles) that was never dubbed vs how many fans wanted Future Trunks/Female Super Saiyans/Make Broly canon? There really is no comparison. I'm perfectly fine with fan service if it's executed properly, which wasn't the case with Super. Frieza went from SS1 to SSB in 3 months because he trained. Trunks got an unexplained power up to god level. Caulifla tingly backs. Broly was Broly (not explained). Heck, even Master Roshi became thousands of times stronger offscreen. That's fan service.

Maybe because you've used a completely different definition but I've no idea how you think an arc with villains created from the wishes from the previous series is fanservice. Fans never begged for an arc involving "the shadow dragons". How is Goku finishing off a villain in the same way that he has another villain fan service? You might be confusing story tie-ins with previous plot points as "fan service".

Also, many of what you've listed can be directly applied to Super. Let's bring back 17 but make him even stronger than Super 17 was in GT (even though 17 in GT was a fusion of 2 cyborgs) with no explanation at all.


Every arc of GT was ripping off something.

-Arc one, lets bring back kid Goku and redo the original DragonBall hunt in space
-let’s give Goku and Vegeta new forms and let them fight with the backdrop of the Garlic JR arc and the villains motivation based off a filler story that was already explored in an OVA
-let’s bring back Androids and have them merge to create a Super Android, where did I see that before.
-every villain of the last arc is associated with an event from the series and the entire final battle rips off all the key moments from the Boo arc.

At least Trunks had a unique arc in his one story in Super. Dude was a main character in GT and did nothing. Yes both brought 17 back. One had an arc devoted to him, one had a couple episodes worth of content for him. Which handled him better?

GT felt like the worst kind of fan fiction. I’m shocked it wasn’t called DragonBall Extreme.

Also what had more original content that was actually quality?

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby PFM18 » Fri May 25, 2018 10:57 am

coola wrote:Yes, i prefer GT Goku to Super Goku as well, and i really disliked they brought Tien and Chiaotsu back to Super, there was no point what so ever (also, sorry to say, but Tien new VA sucks) personally, i view GT as Sonic 06, and Super as Sonic Boom, GT (like 06) had very interesting ideas, but some of tchem were poorly executed, still, you could see there was potential, Super (Boom) on the other hand, is just boring.


.....wait you think the ToP was "just boring"? It included atleast two of the best fights in the entire franchise.

GT, on the other hand, is an achievement to even eatch without falling asleep

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby coola » Fri May 25, 2018 11:20 am

PFM18 wrote:
coola wrote:Yes, i prefer GT Goku to Super Goku as well, and i really disliked they brought Tien and Chiaotsu back to Super, there was no point what so ever (also, sorry to say, but Tien new VA sucks) personally, i view GT as Sonic 06, and Super as Sonic Boom, GT (like 06) had very interesting ideas, but some of tchem were poorly executed, still, you could see there was potential, Super (Boom) on the other hand, is just boring.


.....wait you think the ToP was "just boring"? It included atleast two of the best fights in the entire franchise.

GT, on the other hand, is an achievement to even eatch without falling asleep

ToP was roller coaster, i admit some episodes were great, but there were more episodes that are so bad i never want watch them ever again (Unless I'm payed :) ) And i hated when character was supposed to be out of steam, yet was perfectly fine next episode.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Robo4900 » Fri May 25, 2018 11:40 am

PFM18 wrote:.....wait you think the ToP was "just boring"? It included atleast two of the best fights in the entire franchise.

Maybe, just maybe, kinda cool-looking fights aren't the only metric by which to judge a piece of media. COUGHandroid 13, both coola movies, resurrection fCOUGH

Seriously, I'm actually starting to outright hate this mentality; if the central fight in Batman V Superman had been the best fight scene ever put on film, it would still be a lame, terrible, boring slog of a movie.

Like most media involving fights that isn't wrestling, Dragon Ball has never just been about the fights, they're just the icing on the cake, a cake made of characterisation, humour, creative designs, fun stories, and in the anime only, a highly-varied soundtrack, including some of the most catchy opening/ending themes and insert songs you'll ever hear. The only one of these Super actually does well is the opening/ending themes, it fails on every other conceivable level. And once you fall that far, it doesn't matter how flashy your fights are; if your characters have become cardboard cutouts, your humour has died, your designs have become lazy, and your music has become repetitive drivel, you're not doing a good show anymore.

lancerman wrote:Every arc of GT was ripping off something.

To save space, I'm not going to encase your point-by-point breakdowns in quotes. And I'm gonna need to; the level to which you're wrong requires some in-depth answers, so strap yourself in for a long post here.

  • Arc one, lets bring back kid Goku and redo the original DragonBall hunt in space
    That isn't a ripoff, it's an homage to the setup and formula of the first couple of arcs. But, it plays with it to a heavy degree; all three of them are highly-competent fighters, and instead of it simply being "Let's get those Dragon Balls so Bulma can wish for a boyfriend", it's a high-stakes search for the balls which the continued existence of the earth depends on.
  • let’s give Goku and Vegeta new forms and let them fight with the backdrop of the Garlic JR arc and the villains motivation based off a filler story that was already explored in an OVA
    I'll go into this in more detail below, but the Garlic Jr. comparison doesn't work in the slighest. The OVA comparison doesn't work either, it's just a surface-level similarity of the setup.
    If you want to criticise Goku and Vegeta getting new forms, GT isn't the one to criticise, GT only introduced one new form, while Super has introduced about 5 or 6(It's quite telling that I've actually lost track at this point).
  • let’s bring back Androids and have them merge to create a Super Android, where did I see that before.
    You have a point there, but one small part of the arc's plot doesn't make the arc a wholesale ripoff of something else.
  • every villain of the last arc is associated with an event from the series and the entire final battle rips off all the key moments from the Boo arc.
    Oh yeah, because having nods to the history of the franchise in the final arc in an 11-year run is a crime that makes the entire thing not worthwhile, and turns what was otherwise a highly original premise into a pure ripoff of something else... :lolno:

And now, your previous post, where the meat of my arguments lie:

  • First arc, go back to iconic child Goku
    Meanwhile, Super switched to a flanderised, childish portrayal of Goku.
  • Bring back Pilaf again.
    GT brought him back for a one-episode spot, pretty much just as a little in-joke thing. Super has consistently had him back, and... The Pilaf crew really haven't done anything. Unlike in GT, where they just showed up, did a quick thing, then left, we're kind of stuck with them hanging around, not doing anything of any importance in Super. Aside from what Future Mai has got up to(Which completely ignores all her previous characterisation...), the Pilaf crew actually have done even less than they did in GT...
  • Have Goku fight the race King Kai mentioned back in that filler episode with the Tuffles.
    Super brought in three Saiyans from a parallel universe.
  • Have a new version of Goku (SSJ4) fight a new version of Vegeta (baby Vegeta)
    Goku Blue vs Jelly Vegeta Blue
  • Bring back the Oozaru only this time he's gold
    Bring back Freeza twice, only this time he's gold.
    Bring back Super Saiyan, only this time it's red, blue, green, white, or "Rosé".
    Bring back Trunks, only this time his hair is blue, but otherwise, he's exactly the same as he was in the Cell arc.
    Bring back the Mafuba, only this time it's lame.
    Bring back mystic Gohan, only this time, it doesn't really mean anything.
  • Oh look let's take our Dr Gero knockoff that we created in the last arc and team him up with Dr Gero in hell.
    Oh look let's take our Freeza knockoff that we created two arcs ago, and team him up with Freeza in the TOP. I realise he betrays him. Same goes for Myuu and Gero. Super does a surprising amount of ripping off GT.
  • let's bring back 17 and give him this new form in a convoluted non sensical way.
    Let's bring back 17, and make him strong enough to fight alongside Goku and co. for literally no reason at all.
  • lets use this as an excuse for Goku and friends to fight all their old villains.
    Let's use Goku's idiocy as an excuse for Goku to fight alongside all his old friends who have already long-since retired and become irrelevant as far as fighting goes.
  • Lets do a crappy Cell and Freeza team up while where at it that adds nothing but fan service to the movie
    Let's do a crappy return of Future Trunks in a way that adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Let's do a crappy re-return of Freeza in a way that adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Let's do a crappy return of #17 in a way that adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Crappy return of Roshi adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Crappy return of Tenshinhan adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Crappy return Kuririn nothing but fan service.
    Crap Gohan return fan service.
    Crap Piccolo fan service.
  • Remember that cool move from the last DBZ movie? We are going to bring it back to beat the villain.
    Remember those last two DBZ movies? Let's literally do those all over again. (Though, let's be real -- how is reusing a technique from a movie that had just recently come out a case of unnecessary fanservice? Much as I am countering each of these with Super doing something that I consider worse, with basically all of these, you do have a point, but here, you're just getting nonsensical)
  • Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in movie 12 only this time SSJ4.
    Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in the Boo arc only this time it's SS Blue.
  • Lets have him make the same mistake Gotenks made against Boo.
    This is also how Vegetto Blue vs Zamasu Black ended, so...

lancerman wrote:Oh it's the final arc, let's tie every single villain in it to a wish from the previous series.

How is that a criticism, like at all? It's the final arc, so what better way to finish off the franchise than to have the objects the entire franchise has revolved around turn against them, and use that as a method of harkening back to the show's history? It's not like they're bringing one classic villain back twice, or having a ton of characters who shouldn't be anywhere near Goku's level start fighting alongside him with no explanation...
Hell, half of the wishes don't tie to the villains at all; Liu Xing Long's wish was Oolong's wish for panties, Liang Xing Long's was the revival of Bora, Wu Xing Long was Goku's revival in the Saiyan arc.
And of the remaining four, three of them came from mass revivals(Qi, Yi, and San), leaving Si Xing Long as the only one whose wish directly ties to any villains, the rest being rather tangential.

The Evil Dragons' wishes aren't cheap ways to tie them to past villains, they're a neat way of tying them into the history of the franchise, that's built into the very premise of the arc. The whole point of the Evil Dragons arc is that the protagonists have to pay for their abuse of these sacred objects; they've taken them far too lightly over the years, and now they have to pay for the massive "Get out of jail free card" the balls consistently acted as. So it's only fitting that each dragon would tie into a specific wish to get this point across more strongly.

Besides, one point you've missed all throughout this is the big, damning thing that actually, fanservice in itself isn't a bad thing. Sure, too much of it can be a little off-putting, but the only time it's a real problem is when the fanservice gets in the way of the rest of the show. The Evil Dragons arc does fanservice to take advantage of its premise, while in Super, the premises are entirely built around fanservice.

lancerman wrote:It was just generic crap that felt like fanfiction to desperately seek an audience.

Well done, you've perfectly described how I feel about Super.

lancerman wrote:Baby was the most original thing it did and even that involved recycling filler from the Saiyan arc

So, GT having a third set of Dragon Balls that scatter over the universe, and blow up the planet they're used on is unoriginal, but Super having a third set of Dragon Balls that scatter over two universes, and are the size of planets isn't?
So, GT can have a highly original villain, but because it harkens back to something mentioned in the past, it's bad, but Super retelling the first two movies on a lower budget, and doing a rehashed tournament arc, and taking the plot and structure of the Piccolo Daimao arc and retrofitting it to the setup of the Cell arc isn't?
And, with these unoriginal plots of Super in mind, how is GT having the Dragon Balls turn evil and spawn seven monsters formed as a consequence to the overuse of the Dragon Balls over the run not original?

lancerman wrote:1 and sort of doing the Black Water Mist thing 2 and having Goku and Vegeta fight 3 oh and a Dr. Gero copycat was there.

1. That isn't what happened in the slightest. The Black Water Mist turned everyone and everything feral, causing all the people and animals affected to go mad and attack each-other. Baby possessed everyone, making them go along with his plans, and generally bend to his will.

2. Which Super did, except without building up any real stakes or weight for it, and the fight itself sucked.

3. He looks kinda like him, but their characters are entirely different, and their plans are entirely different -- one is a bitter old man out for revenge who goes too far, and his creations end up turning on him, the other is a maniac who thinks he's the ultimate mastermind of his plans of conquest, when he's actually just a pawn created by Baby to allow him to reach his fullest potential; one wants to make something strong enough to kill Goku, the other wants to conquer the universe, and give life to Baby.
Meanwhile, Super had a Freeza copycat(Frost), two Baby copycats(Watagash, the jelly thing), and a Ginyu Force copycat(IIRC, the pride troopers), none of which were remotely interesting. Even if you're one of the "fights are all tht matter" fans, the fights with most of these guys in Super sucked.

lancerman wrote:And as far as Goku, people keep saying he was mature? He wasn't mature. He wasn't naive like Goku was in the last series, but that was more because he had no character at all and was like every other generic shonen character. There was no difference between him and Ash Ketchum when he was in kid form, and when he was an adult as SSJ4 he was just "badass anime Goku who was all serious all the time and looked like he was doing a Batman impression".

Maybe if all you ever saw was the Funimation dub, or you went in deliberately looking for that perception, but honestly, I don't see how anyone can say he's any more immature than he was in the "End of Z" epilogue thing, or the Boo arc in general. If anything, I'd say he's more mature.
If Super Goku was turned into a kid, he'd spend the entire time complaining about it, and how it's getting in the way of his training, fighting, etc., because that's all Super Goku does; he complains and whines until he can get a strong fight, and even when he gets his way, he's the ultimate bearer of the idiot ball in Super, so he'll do something stupid and only barely scrape through, while causing problems for everyone else along the way. Beerus told Goku that if he bothered the Omni-King, bad things would happen, and yet Goku did it anyway, and endagered everyone and everything he knows and cares about.

In the Saiyan arc, Roshi thought Goku's power might have diminished once he'd settled down with Gohan and Chichi, which isn't hard to imagine, given what we see of his private family life. Super Goku would never be like this, he'd be complaining every step of the way that being Gohan's father and Chichi's husband is getting in the way of his training, and this family life stuff doesn't involve him fighting powerful opponents. Hell, Super Goku hired Hit to take a hit out on his life so they could fight, which very nearly got Goku killed, and would have been dreadful for his family, friends, etc.
Super Goku is such a petulent child, he'll risk absolutely anything to get a decent fight, to the point where he'll put the entirety of existence on the line against Beerus's warnings. Super Goku is a horrible person, and a shallow caricature of who Goku had always been previously.

GT Goku goes with the flow, takes it easy, and even outright accepts "Y'know, this Evil Dragons thing probably is my fault. So, I'm going to go deal with all this myself." This is exactly the character we'd always seen in Goku's shoes up to this point. Sure, fighting is ultimately what he loves, but it's not like he's an incomplete wreck without it, like some kind of horrible addict... He's a pretty chill guy, and he's perfectly willing to accept the consequences of his actions, whatever they may be, partially because he doesn't think there's a challenge out there he can't overcome. Until Super, this is exactly how Goku had always been portrayed.

lancerman wrote:Videl was barely in each show. Gohan actually had some meaningful moments in Super, he had none in GT. Goten I'll give you I guess but I don't think one fight in the Baby arc really meant all that much. Piccolo had a bigger moment in the Baby arc, but that was his only major moment in the show. He actually was a far more active character in Super. And Trunks depends on if you are counting Future or not. Because anything Future did in Super was better than anything GT Trunks did by about 100 miles. [...] Gohan got more development, 17 and Freeza got infinitley more development. Future Trunks got more development than GT Trunks. Kuriren got more character focus and development as did 18. Roshi actually did things even if his development was a gag.

Here's how Super gets so many people on board; it gives the illusion that it's doing things with all these characters, but it's not in fact doing anything. Character involvement isn't a volume thing -- more isn't better, it's all about the actual quality of it, and what they actually do.

What does Gohan do in GT? Well, while it's never centre-stage, it's pretty evident from what he does in the show that he mainly concentrates on his family life and his career these days, but if he ever needs to, he's open to donning his gi, and getting his hands dirty. This shows that in the years since the Boo arc, he's finally struck the balance that he'd always struggled to find, implying a lot of personal growth.
What does Gohan do in Super? Well, somehow he's completely lost all his power in the few months since kid Boo's defeat, and even after vowing to do something about this in the RF arc, he doesn't actually start training under Piccolo again until the TOP, which had been so long since the RF arc, they had to put a filler episode before it to actually remind people what Gohan considers important in his life. Granted, it was a pretty decent filler episode, but despite him getting a couple of episodes to himself, a couple of big moments in the RF arc, and a massive amount of screentime around the TOP, his character development doesn't take him any further than his really limited screentime in GT took him.
So, GT told Gohan's story without having to take up tons of screentime that would be better served on characters who need some focus to get their character arcs done. It's yet another example of Super failing the "Show don't tell" principle; GT implies character growth by showing you everything you need to know, while Super shoves it in your face and has everyone constantly talking about how they feel, and what they feel motivated by... It just artificially drags things out, and gives a lot of faux-big moments that really don't mean anything.

More examples in here:


lancerman wrote:And then Vegeta got far more development

As I said in a previous post, GT Vegeta actually had quite a bit of development. Meanwhile, Super Vegeta regressed massively, and completely ignored the events of the kid Boo fight.

Here's the full quote:


This post is long enough as it is without me writing up a whole new character analysis on Vegeta in GT and Super, so you'll have to just deal with me quoting myself on this.

lancerman wrote:Then new characters. Did GT introduce anyone as notable as Beerus or Whis?

Well, actually BOG introduced Beerus and Whis.
This is the problem with Super's retelling arcs; it takes all the same criticisms as those two movies got(Even moreso, in fact, since they didn't fix any of those two movies' narrative issues), but none of the cool stuff it does is really carried over, since most of that came from it being fresh, which is very much not the case for the rehash versions.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby 8000 Saiyan » Fri May 25, 2018 12:10 pm

Yeah, it has made me hate GT even more for how dull and boring it is. Honestly, I don't get the love for GT that people have. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to like it, but I have a hard time liking GT due to how underused most of the characters are and how overpowered Goku is. And besides, do I even need to mention that fucking ending that is so schmaltzy? I don't think Toriyama would have ever written an ending like this.

Super might have bad writing at times, but at least it doesn't bore me like GT. I'd rather have a show that doesn't underuse the supporting characters. Tien, Krillin and Piccolo actually get to do shit in Super, while in GT, they basically do nothing. Even fucking Master Roshi got to be a badass in this show.

I'll give GT credit for having great music and great voice acting on the Japanese side. And I actually do love the scene where Android 17 kills Krillin. Not so much for Krillin getting killed because it was already getting tiresome by the time of the Buu saga, because we actually see Android 18 showing emotions (she's angry at 17 for killing him and we see her crying over the loss of her husband).

And as for someone who is a big fan of Ocean, I don't think I would have loved to have seen great talents such as Brian Drummond, Kirby Morrow and Scott McNeil working with terrible material.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Timetraveller » Fri May 25, 2018 12:50 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote: I have a hard time liking GT due to how underused most of the characters are and how overpowered Goku is. And besides, do I even need to mention that fucking ending that is so schmaltzy? I don't think Toriyama would have ever written an ending like this.

Super might have bad writing at times, but at least it doesn't bore me like GT. I'd rather have a show that doesn't underuse the supporting characters. Tien, Krillin and Piccolo actually get to do shit in Super, while in GT, they basically do nothing. Even fucking Master Roshi got to be a badass in this show.


You said it yourself. The other characters aren't as involved because of how overpowered Goku is. Super furthers the gap by introducing "God" forms that are even stronger than SSJ4 and it's only going to get worse from here. Do you wonder why DB characters like Master Roshi and Yajirobe (and eventually Krillin, Tien, Chiatzu and Yamcha) stopped being useful in DBZ? GT tried to keep this consistency. Bringing back those characters for one final hurrah in the top arc was fan service meant to appease those nostalgic fans. Roshi got an unexplained power boost (and risked breaking the rules) and those other guys did little to nothing in the tournament (especially in the manga). Tien jumped off the stage for apparently no reason. Krillin had a nice little scene with 18 showcasing teamwork but nothing as impactful as his death at the hands of 17 in front of 18. Keep in mind GT was only 64 episodes with no filler.

The only way I see those supporting characters being used in the future is if Goku's off in Space or another universe fighting the real threats while the fighters back on Earth fight some fodder characters like Goten and Trunks fighting poachers. Barring some unexplained power boost that somehow makes all the side characters relevant again. Maybe Yajirobe will eat a jar of senzu beans and unlock Ultra Instinct..

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby PFM18 » Fri May 25, 2018 1:50 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:.....wait you think the ToP was "just boring"? It included atleast two of the best fights in the entire franchise.

Maybe, just maybe, kinda cool-looking fights aren't the only metric by which to judge a piece of media. COUGHandroid 13, both coola movies, resurrection fCOUGH

Seriously, I'm actually starting to outright hate this mentality; if the central fight in Batman V Superman had been the best fight scene ever put on film, it would still be a lame, terrible, boring slog of a movie.

Like most media involving fights that isn't wrestling, Dragon Ball has never just been about the fights, they're just the icing on the cake, a cake made of characterisation, humour, creative designs, fun stories, and in the anime only, a highly-varied soundtrack, including some of the most catchy opening/ending themes and insert songs you'll ever hear. The only one of these Super actually does well is the opening/ending themes, it fails on every other conceivable level. And once you fall that far, it doesn't matter how flashy your fights are; if your characters have become cardboard cutouts, your humour has died, your designs have become lazy, and your music has become repetitive drivel, you're not doing a good show anymore.

lancerman wrote:Every arc of GT was ripping off something.

To save space, I'm not going to encase your point-by-point breakdowns in quotes. And I'm gonna need to; the level to which you're wrong requires some in-depth answers, so strap yourself in for a long post here.

  • Arc one, lets bring back kid Goku and redo the original DragonBall hunt in space
    That isn't a ripoff, it's an homage to the setup and formula of the first couple of arcs. But, it plays with it to a heavy degree; all three of them are highly-competent fighters, and instead of it simply being "Let's get those Dragon Balls so Bulma can wish for a boyfriend", it's a high-stakes search for the balls which the continued existence of the earth depends on.
  • let’s give Goku and Vegeta new forms and let them fight with the backdrop of the Garlic JR arc and the villains motivation based off a filler story that was already explored in an OVA
    I'll go into this in more detail below, but the Garlic Jr. comparison doesn't work in the slighest. The OVA comparison doesn't work either, it's just a surface-level similarity of the setup.
    If you want to criticise Goku and Vegeta getting new forms, GT isn't the one to criticise, GT only introduced one new form, while Super has introduced about 5 or 6(It's quite telling that I've actually lost track at this point).
  • let’s bring back Androids and have them merge to create a Super Android, where did I see that before.
    You have a point there, but one small part of the arc's plot doesn't make the arc a wholesale ripoff of something else.
  • every villain of the last arc is associated with an event from the series and the entire final battle rips off all the key moments from the Boo arc.
    Oh yeah, because having nods to the history of the franchise in the final arc in an 11-year run is a crime that makes the entire thing not worthwhile, and turns what was otherwise a highly original premise into a pure ripoff of something else... :lolno:

And now, your previous post, where the meat of my arguments lie:

  • First arc, go back to iconic child Goku
    Meanwhile, Super switched to a flanderised, childish portrayal of Goku.
  • Bring back Pilaf again.
    GT brought him back for a one-episode spot, pretty much just as a little in-joke thing. Super has consistently had him back, and... The Pilaf crew really haven't done anything. Unlike in GT, where they just showed up, did a quick thing, then left, we're kind of stuck with them hanging around, not doing anything of any importance in Super. Aside from what Future Mai has got up to(Which completely ignores all her previous characterisation...), the Pilaf crew actually have done even less than they did in GT...
  • Have Goku fight the race King Kai mentioned back in that filler episode with the Tuffles.
    Super brought in three Saiyans from a parallel universe.
  • Have a new version of Goku (SSJ4) fight a new version of Vegeta (baby Vegeta)
    Goku Blue vs Jelly Vegeta Blue
  • Bring back the Oozaru only this time he's gold
    Bring back Freeza twice, only this time he's gold.
    Bring back Super Saiyan, only this time it's red, blue, green, white, or "Rosé".
    Bring back Trunks, only this time his hair is blue, but otherwise, he's exactly the same as he was in the Cell arc.
    Bring back the Mafuba, only this time it's lame.
    Bring back mystic Gohan, only this time, it doesn't really mean anything.
  • Oh look let's take our Dr Gero knockoff that we created in the last arc and team him up with Dr Gero in hell.
    Oh look let's take our Freeza knockoff that we created two arcs ago, and team him up with Freeza in the TOP. I realise he betrays him. Same goes for Myuu and Gero. Super does a surprising amount of ripping off GT.
  • let's bring back 17 and give him this new form in a convoluted non sensical way.
    Let's bring back 17, and make him strong enough to fight alongside Goku and co. for literally no reason at all.
  • lets use this as an excuse for Goku and friends to fight all their old villains.
    Let's use Goku's idiocy as an excuse for Goku to fight alongside all his old friends who have already long-since retired and become irrelevant as far as fighting goes.
  • Lets do a crappy Cell and Freeza team up while where at it that adds nothing but fan service to the movie
    Let's do a crappy return of Future Trunks in a way that adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Let's do a crappy re-return of Freeza in a way that adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Let's do a crappy return of #17 in a way that adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Crappy return of Roshi adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Crappy return of Tenshinhan adds nothing but fan service to the arc.
    Crappy return Kuririn nothing but fan service.
    Crap Gohan return fan service.
    Crap Piccolo fan service.
  • Remember that cool move from the last DBZ movie? We are going to bring it back to beat the villain.
    Remember those last two DBZ movies? Let's literally do those all over again. (Though, let's be real -- how is reusing a technique from a movie that had just recently come out a case of unnecessary fanservice? Much as I am countering each of these with Super doing something that I consider worse, with basically all of these, you do have a point, but here, you're just getting nonsensical)
  • Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in movie 12 only this time SSJ4.
    Let's fuse Goku and Vegeta like in the Boo arc only this time it's SS Blue.
  • Lets have him make the same mistake Gotenks made against Boo.
    This is also how Vegetto Blue vs Zamasu Black ended, so...

lancerman wrote:Oh it's the final arc, let's tie every single villain in it to a wish from the previous series.

How is that a criticism, like at all? It's the final arc, so what better way to finish off the franchise than to have the objects the entire franchise has revolved around turn against them, and use that as a method of harkening back to the show's history? It's not like they're bringing one classic villain back twice, or having a ton of characters who shouldn't be anywhere near Goku's level start fighting alongside him with no explanation...
Hell, half of the wishes don't tie to the villains at all; Liu Xing Long's wish was Oolong's wish for panties, Liang Xing Long's was the revival of Bora, Wu Xing Long was Goku's revival in the Saiyan arc.
And of the remaining four, three of them came from mass revivals(Qi, Yi, and San), leaving Si Xing Long as the only one whose wish directly ties to any villains, the rest being rather tangential.

The Evil Dragons' wishes aren't cheap ways to tie them to past villains, they're a neat way of tying them into the history of the franchise, that's built into the very premise of the arc. The whole point of the Evil Dragons arc is that the protagonists have to pay for their abuse of these sacred objects; they've taken them far too lightly over the years, and now they have to pay for the massive "Get out of jail free card" the balls consistently acted as. So it's only fitting that each dragon would tie into a specific wish to get this point across more strongly.

Besides, one point you've missed all throughout this is the big, damning thing that actually, fanservice in itself isn't a bad thing. Sure, too much of it can be a little off-putting, but the only time it's a real problem is when the fanservice gets in the way of the rest of the show. The Evil Dragons arc does fanservice to take advantage of its premise, while in Super, the premises are entirely built around fanservice.

lancerman wrote:It was just generic crap that felt like fanfiction to desperately seek an audience.

Well done, you've perfectly described how I feel about Super.

lancerman wrote:Baby was the most original thing it did and even that involved recycling filler from the Saiyan arc

So, GT having a third set of Dragon Balls that scatter over the universe, and blow up the planet they're used on is unoriginal, but Super having a third set of Dragon Balls that scatter over two universes, and are the size of planets isn't?
So, GT can have a highly original villain, but because it harkens back to something mentioned in the past, it's bad, but Super retelling the first two movies on a lower budget, and doing a rehashed tournament arc, and taking the plot and structure of the Piccolo Daimao arc and retrofitting it to the setup of the Cell arc isn't?
And, with these unoriginal plots of Super in mind, how is GT having the Dragon Balls turn evil and spawn seven monsters formed as a consequence to the overuse of the Dragon Balls over the run not original?

lancerman wrote:1 and sort of doing the Black Water Mist thing 2 and having Goku and Vegeta fight 3 oh and a Dr. Gero copycat was there.

1. That isn't what happened in the slightest. The Black Water Mist turned everyone and everything feral, causing all the people and animals affected to go mad and attack each-other. Baby possessed everyone, making them go along with his plans, and generally bend to his will.

2. Which Super did, except without building up any real stakes or weight for it, and the fight itself sucked.

3. He looks kinda like him, but their characters are entirely different, and their plans are entirely different -- one is a bitter old man out for revenge who goes too far, and his creations end up turning on him, the other is a maniac who thinks he's the ultimate mastermind of his plans of conquest, when he's actually just a pawn created by Baby to allow him to reach his fullest potential; one wants to make something strong enough to kill Goku, the other wants to conquer the universe, and give life to Baby.
Meanwhile, Super had a Freeza copycat(Frost), two Baby copycats(Watagash, the jelly thing), and a Ginyu Force copycat(IIRC, the pride troopers), none of which were remotely interesting. Even if you're one of the "fights are all tht matter" fans, the fights with most of these guys in Super sucked.

lancerman wrote:And as far as Goku, people keep saying he was mature? He wasn't mature. He wasn't naive like Goku was in the last series, but that was more because he had no character at all and was like every other generic shonen character. There was no difference between him and Ash Ketchum when he was in kid form, and when he was an adult as SSJ4 he was just "badass anime Goku who was all serious all the time and looked like he was doing a Batman impression".

Maybe if all you ever saw was the Funimation dub, or you went in deliberately looking for that perception, but honestly, I don't see how anyone can say he's any more immature than he was in the "End of Z" epilogue thing, or the Boo arc in general. If anything, I'd say he's more mature.
If Super Goku was turned into a kid, he'd spend the entire time complaining about it, and how it's getting in the way of his training, fighting, etc., because that's all Super Goku does; he complains and whines until he can get a strong fight, and even when he gets his way, he's the ultimate bearer of the idiot ball in Super, so he'll do something stupid and only barely scrape through, while causing problems for everyone else along the way. Beerus told Goku that if he bothered the Omni-King, bad things would happen, and yet Goku did it anyway, and endagered everyone and everything he knows and cares about.

In the Saiyan arc, Roshi thought Goku's power might have diminished once he'd settled down with Gohan and Chichi, which isn't hard to imagine, given what we see of his private family life. Super Goku would never be like this, he'd be complaining every step of the way that being Gohan's father and Chichi's husband is getting in the way of his training, and this family life stuff doesn't involve him fighting powerful opponents. Hell, Super Goku hired Hit to take a hit out on his life so they could fight, which very nearly got Goku killed, and would have been dreadful for his family, friends, etc.
Super Goku is such a petulent child, he'll risk absolutely anything to get a decent fight, to the point where he'll put the entirety of existence on the line against Beerus's warnings. Super Goku is a horrible person, and a shallow caricature of who Goku had always been previously.

GT Goku goes with the flow, takes it easy, and even outright accepts "Y'know, this Evil Dragons thing probably is my fault. So, I'm going to go deal with all this myself." This is exactly the character we'd always seen in Goku's shoes up to this point. Sure, fighting is ultimately what he loves, but it's not like he's an incomplete wreck without it, like some kind of horrible addict... He's a pretty chill guy, and he's perfectly willing to accept the consequences of his actions, whatever they may be, partially because he doesn't think there's a challenge out there he can't overcome. Until Super, this is exactly how Goku had always been portrayed.

lancerman wrote:Videl was barely in each show. Gohan actually had some meaningful moments in Super, he had none in GT. Goten I'll give you I guess but I don't think one fight in the Baby arc really meant all that much. Piccolo had a bigger moment in the Baby arc, but that was his only major moment in the show. He actually was a far more active character in Super. And Trunks depends on if you are counting Future or not. Because anything Future did in Super was better than anything GT Trunks did by about 100 miles. [...] Gohan got more development, 17 and Freeza got infinitley more development. Future Trunks got more development than GT Trunks. Kuriren got more character focus and development as did 18. Roshi actually did things even if his development was a gag.

Here's how Super gets so many people on board; it gives the illusion that it's doing things with all these characters, but it's not in fact doing anything. Character involvement isn't a volume thing -- more isn't better, it's all about the actual quality of it, and what they actually do.

What does Gohan do in GT? Well, while it's never centre-stage, it's pretty evident from what he does in the show that he mainly concentrates on his family life and his career these days, but if he ever needs to, he's open to donning his gi, and getting his hands dirty. This shows that in the years since the Boo arc, he's finally struck the balance that he'd always struggled to find, implying a lot of personal growth.
What does Gohan do in Super? Well, somehow he's completely lost all his power in the few months since kid Boo's defeat, and even after vowing to do something about this in the RF arc, he doesn't actually start training under Piccolo again until the TOP, which had been so long since the RF arc, they had to put a filler episode before it to actually remind people what Gohan considers important in his life. Granted, it was a pretty decent filler episode, but despite him getting a couple of episodes to himself, a couple of big moments in the RF arc, and a massive amount of screentime around the TOP, his character development doesn't take him any further than his really limited screentime in GT took him.
So, GT told Gohan's story without having to take up tons of screentime that would be better served on characters who need some focus to get their character arcs done. It's yet another example of Super failing the "Show don't tell" principle; GT implies character growth by showing you everything you need to know, while Super shoves it in your face and has everyone constantly talking about how they feel, and what they feel motivated by... It just artificially drags things out, and gives a lot of faux-big moments that really don't mean anything.

More examples in here:


lancerman wrote:And then Vegeta got far more development

As I said in a previous post, GT Vegeta actually had quite a bit of development. Meanwhile, Super Vegeta regressed massively, and completely ignored the events of the kid Boo fight.

Here's the full quote:


This post is long enough as it is without me writing up a whole new character analysis on Vegeta in GT and Super, so you'll have to just deal with me quoting myself on this.

lancerman wrote:Then new characters. Did GT introduce anyone as notable as Beerus or Whis?

Well, actually BOG introduced Beerus and Whis.
This is the problem with Super's retelling arcs; it takes all the same criticisms as those two movies got(Even moreso, in fact, since they didn't fix any of those two movies' narrative issues), but none of the cool stuff it does is really carried over, since most of that came from it being fresh, which is very much not the case for the rehash versions.


Yeah you completely missed my point. He said the ToP was boring, and I was responding strictly in terms of it's entertainment value and the fights are a big part of that.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Robo4900 » Fri May 25, 2018 7:56 pm

PFM18 wrote:Yeah you completely missed my point. He said the ToP was boring, and I was responding strictly in terms of it's entertainment value and the fights are a big part of that.

You probably didn't need to quote my entire post there. :lol:

Anyway, I still completely stand by what I said before. Even the most well-choreographed fight can be boring if there are no stakes, and if the story just fundamentally doesn't work, and you don't purely watch Dragon Ball for the spectacle of the fights, you'll get bored quickly. And I would know.
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Timetraveller » Sat May 26, 2018 12:36 am

lancerman wrote:
Every arc of GT was ripping off something.

-Arc one, lets bring back kid Goku and redo the original DragonBall hunt in space
-let’s give Goku and Vegeta new forms and let them fight with the backdrop of the Garlic JR arc and the villains motivation based off a filler story that was already explored in an OVA
-let’s bring back Androids and have them merge to create a Super Android, where did I see that before.
-every villain of the last arc is associated with an event from the series and the entire final battle rips off all the key moments from the Boo arc.

At least Trunks had a unique arc in his one story in Super. Dude was a main character in GT and did nothing. Yes both brought 17 back. One had an arc devoted to him, one had a couple episodes worth of content for him. Which handled him better?

GT felt like the worst kind of fan fiction. I’m shocked it wasn’t called DragonBall Extreme.

Also what had more original content that was actually quality?


Robo's already responded to most of your points better than I ever could. There really should be the ability to save your favorite comments on Kanzenshuu. The only thing I'll add is that Future Trunks and GT Trunks are completely different characters. GT Trunks is the older version of the main timeline Trunks. In GT Trunks spent many episodes as a protagonist and fought against the main threats. In Super main timeline Trunks is relegated to that sideline cheerleader role and has very few appearances. Sure GT could've brought back Future Trunks like Super did but that's unnecessary fan service imo. I hated how the Future Trunks ended or how they randomly changed his appearance after decades of depicting him with purple hair. Wasn't a fan of the random powerups they gave him either like his god form that makes him almost as strong as SSB or him unknowingly creating a spirit bomb (never seeing the technique before) and creating a magic sword out of it. It wasn't in Toriyama's script as was another example of poorly executed Toei fanservice. Zamasu before Goku Black was a unique villain though.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby MKCSTEALTH » Sat May 26, 2018 12:51 am

Honestly no. GT still feels to me a sequel, albeit a poor one. Super felt like a midquel. At time, it does feel like the "true sequel" to Z, but only at points.

I feel the designs of the transformations lazy to that of GT. I love SSJ4 over Blue honestly. But I absolutely adore Ultra Instinct Omen over both of them. I felt GT had better ideas with some of it's villains and stories, but it's execution was lackluster. Super rehashed two movies, had a decent tournament, the awesomeness that was the Goku Black arc, and a bigger, epicer tournament.

Honestly, I'm interested to see where Dragonball goes in the future regarding both properties. I still consider GT valid, though should they choose to go a different route I wouldn't complain. Super to me, though, is the superior series. Though not without it's problems.

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PsionicWarrior
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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby PsionicWarrior » Sun May 27, 2018 7:56 am

Super has not impacted my opinion on GT, I thought it was crap then and I still think it is crap now lol

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby Tai Lung » Tue May 29, 2018 9:55 pm

Asura wrote:Has it made you appreciate GT more? Hate it more? I think Super suffered from some of the same problems GT did so I'm curious as to how people feel about some of the mistakes GT has made now that Super has also made some of them, such as good ideas, bad execution, focusing on Goku too much, bad comic relief characters (Pilaf Gang, Para Para Brothers), the final villain not being very interesting aside from being very powerful, etc. etc.

Do GT's sins become more forgivable? Does it make you hate it even more? Or are you just neutral and feel the same way as you did before watching Super?


not really everyone is on their side having their good and bad things in which you can notice more likely but does not change my opinion that I had before perhaps only reinforces it more although there are times when one had what the other was missing

in super goku it will have had more prominence than in z but at least many characters had more participation
piccolo and gohan returned to the fights and acquires a reason to be a warrior
krillin, tien and roshi returned to the fights, Overcomes your fears and abandons retirement
vegeta has more participation and manages to reach goku in its own way but through training
17 show more of their humanity etc etc
personally I liked more the fights, the story and the development of characters that had super
and although gt I do not like how z or super does not make me hate it but only makes me see more what I miss and I think it could be fixed if they continue to continue the series after the epilogue

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby NthNewbie » Wed May 30, 2018 2:54 pm

Nothing will ever change my opinion on GT. The first time I tried to watch it I could barely manage to get past 2 episodes, it's just so bland and.. boring. There's not a single episode that I've fully watched without fast-forwarding a few scenes, especially the fights. I started last year, and I've still not finished watching it yet. Super's writing may not be very good but at least it fulfilled its purpose as an entertainment.

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Re: Has Super impacted your opinion on GT at all?

Postby PFM18 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:07 pm

NthNewbie wrote:Nothing will ever change my opinion on GT. The first time I tried to watch it I could barely manage to get past 2 episodes, it's just so bland and.. boring. There's not a single episode that I've fully watched without fast-forwarding a few scenes, especially the fights. I started last year, and I've still not finished watching it yet. Super's writing may not be very good but at least it fulfilled its purpose as an entertainment.


Yeah GT is a hard watch. quite the achievement to be able to finish it without falling asleep.

that said, Super's writing isn't perfect but I think it is still good.


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