1. He only fared better because he got an easy power up with the God ritual (which even Goku himself was unsatisfied with). You fail here.Nickolaidas wrote:1. It doesn't matter if he fared better than SSJ3 Goku - did he fare better than GOKU in the movie? Who was the one who fought Beerus for tens of minutes? Who was the one who fought for mere seconds? Goku. Fared. Better. Against. Beerus.ricky84 wrote: 1. The point was that he did better than SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan against Beerus, which debunks yours.
2. The entire film was full of bad writing twist like Goku getting owned by a laser.
3. Vegeta only lost because of bad luck. He had no idea about Time skip and Goku himself said to Jaco that he would have lost just as badly as Vegeta if he fought first. And he never got a rematch either.
4. You are clearly wrong here and being biased. After Vegeta beat down Black (which the real Goku never did), all Black did was surround him and Goku with clones. Black never directly fought anyone again before fusing with Future Zamasu, meaning Vegeta did significantly better than Goku in that arc.
5. Again, the point was that he managed to do way better with just SSB against Jiren than Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit did in episode 122. Debunking your complaints again.
The only thing you made clear is how you're unwilling to see facts that go against your biases.
2. Riiight. Goku being caught off-guard by a laser is bad writing. SSJ3 Goku faring worse than SSJ2MYBULMA Vegeta isn't bad writing, it's a fact. And you have the gall to talk to me about bias?
3. Bad luck? Hit was clearly the superior fighter. And while I admit that Goku was informed of the Time Skip, again, the fact remains that he fared better than Vegeta. As for the 'I would've fared no better than Vegeta' line, that's just the writers throwing Vegeta fanboys a bone - Goku did the same thing back in the Buu saga concerning fat Buu and what happens when he DOES fight him? Yup, turns SSJ3 and gives Vegeta a run for his money.
4. Vegeta tells Black that he miscalculated and beats the living snot out of him. Black figures out about the power of rage, uses it and regains the upper hand. How did Vegeta defeat Black exactly? Black was losing and figured out how to halt Vegeta's advance. Vegeta didn't win. (Unless you're talking about Manga Vegeta? In that case, I haven't read the issues, I'm talking about the anime)
5. AGAIN, Goku fared better against Jiren and acquired a power Vegeta has yet to possess - you are claiming that Vegeta is stronger than Goku by using terms like 'bad luck' or 'bad writing' whenever it's clear he's the worse fighter, and you use scenes of temporary rage boosts, epiphanies and shameless fan service as evidence that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. You're basically telling me that Namek Saga Gohan is stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta because he pummeled 2nd Frieza due to rage while Vegeta couldn't even make a dent on the tyrant. Guess what? That's just plain wrong.
Ask yourself this (and this is the last time I get involved in this conversation since we're both too stubborn to agree to disagree): If Vegeta is stronger than Goku in the ToP why is he 'desperately trying to catch up' in the beginning of the Broly movie?
2. Emotion based power boost are thing in DB since the begininng. Becoming SSJ for the first time itself was the biggest example. You just exposed yourself as a biased, delusional Vegeta hater.
3. False analogy with the Buu saga (he never said anything about doing worse against Buu if he fought first. You are clearly reaching just to hate). What Goku said about what would happen if he fought first is a obvious fact, as proven when Hit one shots and kills Goku in their first rematch and as proven in the ToP when SSBKK Goku does worse than Vegeta against Jiren.
4. Now you just being a delusional hater
. Black never directly fought anyone after he got beaten down by Vegeta. Black even clearly admitted his loss to Vegeta as he was about to pull out his scythe. It is willful ignorance at its worst to say Vegeta didn't win against Black. That's just as dumb as saying MUI Goku lose to Jiren because he didn't ring him out smh.5. Goku only fared better because he got superior power-up. Vegeta in 122 managed to out perform Goku using a transformation that is weaker than KKx20, so there is no way you can argue that Goku is the way better fighter (despite never actually beating him in a one-on-one lmao) based on your fallacies.
Those "epiphanies and shameless fan service" scenes all explicitly state that he surpassed Goku at those times (and his boost against Beerus was permanent in the Super version of BoG, which you keep denying).
"You're basically telling me that Namek Saga Gohan is stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta because he pummeled 2nd Frieza due to rage while Vegeta couldn't even make a dent on the tyrant."
Gohan actually was stronger than Vegeta at that point until Krillin gave him another zenkai. You just debunked yourself
" If Vegeta is stronger than Goku in the ToP why is he 'desperately trying to catch up' in the beginning of the Broly movie?"
1. I said he was stronger than KKx20 in 122, not UI Goku (learn how to read)
2. Because Goku has MUI, that's what he needs to catch up to. Common sense bro
