What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri May 18, 2018 7:07 pm

Exline wrote: I have to disagree with you on the pacing. I think it's a tad too fast. We get such little time to become invested in these new characters compared to the anime. I'm not implying that the manga should slow the pace down to how the anime was doing it, but at least follow a much more reasonable pace for a battle royale and the narrative as a whole.
The new fighters are there to present an obstacle for the protagonists, not to be "invested in". That's not the point of the arc, and certainly not the point of a massive turbulent battle royale. There's already more than enough characterization and investment implemented for the main characters in the manga (Universes 7, 11, and possibly 6) and generally with greater care than the anime's version.

The pacing is perfect because it sticks to the arc's core narrative beats and themes without wasting the reader's time. While there's nothing inherently wrong with appreciating the development the anime invested into unimportant characters, it's still ultimately just fluff. I don't think Toyotaro is writing this any differently than how Toriyama would have handled it.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by OLKv3 » Sat May 19, 2018 5:42 am

Seeing as how it's going right now in the manga, being fast paced and feeling like a battle royal, I'm actually glad that the anime pretty much ignored the battle royal feeling and treated it like one long gauntlet match for U7 as every universe lined up to face them. It didn't make sense but it let us get to know the opponents more and also gave us a lot more character interactions and team ups between the U7 members.

Also, please never give us a battle royal ever again Toriyama. It's a disaster from a writing point and the arc would've been so much better if it were just team vs team matches

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Zen Yabuki » Sat May 19, 2018 12:15 pm

OLKv3 wrote:Seeing as how it's going right now in the manga, being fast paced and feeling like a battle royal, I'm actually glad that the anime pretty much ignored the battle royal feeling and treated it like one long gauntlet match for U7 as every universe lined up to face them. It didn't make sense but it let us get to know the opponents more and also gave us a lot more character interactions and team ups between the U7 members.

Also, please never give us a battle royal ever again Toriyama. It's a disaster from a writing point and the arc would've been so much better if it were just team vs team matches
Yeah, this tournament probably would have been much better had it been in the same style as the Dark Tournament. Cut down on how many fighters are on a team, change the format up, and have different Universes face each other off that way (don't need to show every single match of course but some would be nice) and you'd have a nice structure going.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by Asura » Sat May 19, 2018 2:51 pm

Right now the manga feels like an absolute mess. It’s boring, there’s no spectacle, Freeza and 17 who were the two most interesting characters even from the start are boring, Freeza acts nothing like he does in the anime really, just acts like the same old pissed off prick from RoF, and they completely skipped everything leading up the the tournament with Goku asking him to join.

Hit was treated way worse, Krillin and Tenshinan somehow got shafted even harder, eliminations are going at a lightning-fast paced, and honestly I’m just not excited for it whatsoever. Last chapter’s art left a ton to be desired, and I don’t think the manga will be able to capture the magic of UI like the anime did.

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by The Patrolman » Sat May 19, 2018 2:57 pm

Its just as trash as the anime. Probably even worse
The Last Jedi is a terrible movie

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Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

Post by The gr » Sat May 19, 2018 3:21 pm

I guess this is an unpopular opinion :(
    I say it's fine compared to the anime, I will give a full fledged thought once it's over while chapter 34 and 35 month was disappointing in some areas and it's too fast paced,I still find some enjoyment here with #17 being awesome, Frieza cruel nature and Goku isn't shoe horned in every fight and like the Anime, it's unpredictable.
      The Battle while its decent in some areas still doesn't match the spectacle of 109-110-130-131.
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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Exline » Sat May 19, 2018 4:08 pm

      Marlowe89 wrote:The new fighters are there to present an obstacle for the protagonists, not to be "invested in". That's not the point of the arc, and certainly not the point of a massive turbulent battle royale. There's already more than enough characterization and investment implemented for the main characters in the manga (Universes 7, 11, and possibly 6) and generally with greater care than the anime's version.

      The pacing is perfect because it sticks to the arc's core narrative beats and themes without wasting the reader's time. While there's nothing inherently wrong with appreciating the development the anime invested into unimportant characters, it's still ultimately just fluff. I don't think Toyotaro is writing this any differently than how Toriyama would have handled it.
      I understand its not the point of the arc, but what is the reason for introducing more than 80 characters (including the GoDs, etc. of each universe) for? They should be used to make us interested at least. They can be utilized for entertaining fights with their unique designs. That's one of the few things I feel the anime did well. Some fights were boring, but some warriors had some incredibly interesting and new techniques. It made it feel liek old dragon ball when it wasn't always just punches and kicks.

      I disagree with your last comment as well. Toriyama would use the characters in the tournament arcs to the best of his advantage. Take Videl vs Spopovich.. two incredibly weak characters with a fight that could've ended in 1 chapter, but Toriyama kept it going for 3 chapters because he wanted to make Spopovich seem like a strange and formidable foe. This later on allows us to understand how powerful Babidi's magic spell. It then leads to Vegeta wanting a power boost like Spopovich had gotten. Toyotaro would probably end their fight in 5 pages.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sat May 19, 2018 4:45 pm

      Exline wrote:
      Marlowe89 wrote:The new fighters are there to present an obstacle for the protagonists, not to be "invested in". That's not the point of the arc, and certainly not the point of a massive turbulent battle royale. There's already more than enough characterization and investment implemented for the main characters in the manga (Universes 7, 11, and possibly 6) and generally with greater care than the anime's version.

      The pacing is perfect because it sticks to the arc's core narrative beats and themes without wasting the reader's time. While there's nothing inherently wrong with appreciating the development the anime invested into unimportant characters, it's still ultimately just fluff. I don't think Toyotaro is writing this any differently than how Toriyama would have handled it.
      I understand its not the point of the arc, but what is the reason for introducing more than 80 characters (including the GoDs, etc. of each universe) for? They should be used to make us interested at least. They can be utilized for entertaining fights with their unique designs. That's one of the few things I feel the anime did well. Some fights were boring, but some warriors had some incredibly interesting and new techniques. It made it feel liek old dragon ball when it wasn't always just punches and kicks.

      I disagree with your last comment as well. Toriyama would use the characters in the tournament arcs to the best of his advantage. Take Videl vs Spopovich.. two incredibly weak characters with a fight that could've ended in 1 chapter, but Toriyama kept it going for 3 chapters because he wanted to make Spopovich seem like a strange and formidable foe. This later on allows us to understand how powerful Babidi's magic spell. It then leads to Vegeta wanting a power boost like Spopovich had gotten. Toyotaro would probably end their fight in 5 pages.
      I agree, if the New Universe Characters are Just Obstacles to be put into the ways of the U7 Fights why put so much characterization into some of them?!

      That is what Villains Troops like the Frieza forces are for, not other protagonists form other Universes who are not Villain or Foes, just fighters force to fight for their own Survival, so the Obstacles part does not add well like will Villains in previous arcs.

      Dragon Ball and is incarnations have always been about introing new characters and then adding them to the Ranks of the already Know Z-Family later on after their 1st intro. Characters like Jiren, Toppo, Ribrianne and most from U6 as well as others had good to basic character intros and development which leads to the beliefs they can be meant for more then just the next win for a Known characters of U7, they just like any other character from another arc need to be given time to develop, espically now that the ToP is over the U7 help bring them all back. The Hope should be Toei has bigger plans for them.
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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 19, 2018 5:06 pm

      Exline wrote: I understand its not the point of the arc, but what is the reason for introducing more than 80 characters (including the GoDs, etc. of each universe) for?
      To present an obstacle for the protagonists, as I said. The minor fighters aren't needed for characterization purposes, they're needed to contribute to the challenge of fighting in an 80-person battle royale -- which is exactly what they do in the manga as demonstrated by characters like Frost, the Kamikaze Fireballs, Damon, Gamisaras, and so on. The anime had plenty of one-shot fodder as well; the entire point is to convey which fighters are fortunate (or smart, or strong) enough to survive and which ones aren't.

      For example, seeing Katopesla running around and relying on the same tired gag for several scenes isn't entertaining, it's padding. Making quick work of him in the manga wasn't anything worse than just trimming unnecessary fat.
      I disagree with your last comment as well. Toriyama would use the characters in the tournament arcs to the best of his advantage. Take Videl vs Spopovich.. two incredibly weak characters with a fight that could've ended in 1 chapter, but Toriyama kept it going for 3 chapters because he wanted to make Spopovich seem like a strange and formidable foe.
      That's not comparable. He wanted Spopovich to seem formidable and important because he was formidable and important, at least when it came to the tournament's role within the grander scheme of the arc. He wasn't some random mook like many of the participants in Toriyama's tournament arcs, especially the later ones.
      Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sat May 19, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Toxin45 » Sat May 19, 2018 5:08 pm

      CJStriker_CBR wrote:
      Exline wrote:
      Marlowe89 wrote:The new fighters are there to present an obstacle for the protagonists, not to be "invested in". That's not the point of the arc, and certainly not the point of a massive turbulent battle royale. There's already more than enough characterization and investment implemented for the main characters in the manga (Universes 7, 11, and possibly 6) and generally with greater care than the anime's version.

      The pacing is perfect because it sticks to the arc's core narrative beats and themes without wasting the reader's time. While there's nothing inherently wrong with appreciating the development the anime invested into unimportant characters, it's still ultimately just fluff. I don't think Toyotaro is writing this any differently than how Toriyama would have handled it.
      I understand its not the point of the arc, but what is the reason for introducing more than 80 characters (including the GoDs, etc. of each universe) for? They should be used to make us interested at least. They can be utilized for entertaining fights with their unique designs. That's one of the few things I feel the anime did well. Some fights were boring, but some warriors had some incredibly interesting and new techniques. It made it feel liek old dragon ball when it wasn't always just punches and kicks.

      I disagree with your last comment as well. Toriyama would use the characters in the tournament arcs to the best of his advantage. Take Videl vs Spopovich.. two incredibly weak characters with a fight that could've ended in 1 chapter, but Toriyama kept it going for 3 chapters because he wanted to make Spopovich seem like a strange and formidable foe. This later on allows us to understand how powerful Babidi's magic spell. It then leads to Vegeta wanting a power boost like Spopovich had gotten. Toyotaro would probably end their fight in 5 pages.
      I agree, if the New Universe Characters are Just Obstacles to be put into the ways of the U7 Fights why put so much characterization into some of them?!

      That is what Villains Troops like the Frieza forces are for, not other protagonists form other Universes who are not Villain or Foes, just fighters force to fight for their own Survival, so the Obstacles part does not add well like will Villains in previous arcs.

      Dragon Ball and is incarnations have always been about introing new characters and then adding them to the Ranks of the already Know Z-Family later on after their 1st intro. Characters like Jiren, Toppo, Ribrianne and most from U6 as well as others had good to basic character intros and development which leads to the beliefs they can be meant for more then just the next win for a Known characters of U7, they just like any other character from another arc need to be given time to develop, espically now that the ToP is over the U7 help bring them all back. The Hope should be Toei has bigger plans for them.
      Well yeah but if it's villains from their universe though like a an actual villain in that universe where Jiren,Ribriane,and U6 have to deal with.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Exline » Sat May 19, 2018 11:22 pm

      Marlowe89 wrote:
      Exline wrote: I understand its not the point of the arc, but what is the reason for introducing more than 80 characters (including the GoDs, etc. of each universe) for?
      To present an obstacle for the protagonists, as I said. The minor fighters aren't needed for characterization purposes, they're needed to contribute to the challenge of fighting in an 80-person battle royale -- which is exactly what they do in the manga as demonstrated by characters like Frost, the Kamikaze Fireballs, Damon, Gamisaras, and so on. The anime had plenty of one-shot fodder as well; the entire point is to convey which fighters are fortunate (or smart, or strong) enough to survive and which ones aren't.

      For example, seeing Katopesla running around and relying on the same tired gag for several scenes isn't entertaining, it's padding. Making quick work of him in the manga wasn't anything worse than just trimming unnecessary fat.
      So what if it's considered padding? If it's great entertainment, then there shouldn't be a problem whether its fluff or not. We need time away from the action to sort of relax. We cant have fight after fight after fight after fight. We'd be drained.
      I disagree with your last comment as well. Toriyama would use the characters in the tournament arcs to the best of his advantage. Take Videl vs Spopovich.. two incredibly weak characters with a fight that could've ended in 1 chapter, but Toriyama kept it going for 3 chapters because he wanted to make Spopovich seem like a strange and formidable foe.
      That's not comparable. He wanted Spopovich to seem formidable and important because he was formidable and important, at least when it came to the tournament's role within the grander scheme of the arc. He wasn't some random mook like many of the participants in Toriyama's tournament arcs, especially the later ones.
      I wouldn't call each Universe's 10 best fighters a couple of mooks. Each team should have their own purpose, their own personality, their own ideals, etc. Dragon Ball is not only loved for its fights, but its characters as well. Lesser characters should get a couple moments to express themselves to allow us to better understand them. These characters weren't all designed to be fodder is the way I see it. Their designs would've been much more simpler if that were the case. Frieza Soldiers and Saiyan Warriors fall under that category.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Marlowe89 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:40 pm

      Exline wrote: So what if it's considered padding? If it's great entertainment, then there shouldn't be a problem whether its fluff or not. We need time away from the action to sort of relax. We cant have fight after fight after fight after fight. We'd be drained.
      I wouldn't argue that Katopesla's gags were "great entertainment" or even particularly well-done, especially with how Toei tends to repeat the same joke in different scenes. The problem is that the nature of the tournament doesn't leave any room for breaks because it's one giant chaotic fight for survival, so the presence of padding feels downright incongruent with the setting of the arc. Toei wrote the tournament as if it was more of a gauntlet rather than a proper battle royale; Toyotaro is doing the opposite.

      If you prefer one and not the other, that's fine, but don't hate the player, hate the game.
      Exline wrote: I wouldn't call each Universe's 10 best fighters a couple of mooks.
      I strongly disagree with that. They were mooks in the anime and they're mooks in the manga, and their character designs definitely show it. I guess we'll see if Obuni has any relevance in the manga.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:01 am

      The main idea of this arc wasn't a good one to begin with. Inserting 70+ characters, of course the lot of them would be underdeveloped and serve as mere fodder.

      The manga's adaptation of events does feel more like a battle royale in the sense that it's briefly sifting through the various concurrent fights in juxtaposition to the anime where the latter had a propensity to zero in on one scuffle for a period of time and thus as a whole felt like a myriad of subsequent one-on-ones. However, this still doesn't outweigh how the manga is moving too rapidly and eliminating critical characters flippantly without any of them making a decent contribution. Krillin and Tenshinhan were a total waste of time with their ignominious defeats; U7 might as well have just omitted them altogether and arrived with eight characters (and it's pretty pathetic and inane that I have to admit that).

      Overall, the manga isn't as grandiose as the anime's depiction and therefore is much worse to me, but again, I'll reiterate: the main idea for the arc was never a great one to work with from the beginning.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by JazzMazz » Sun May 20, 2018 12:57 am

      TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:The main idea of this arc wasn't a good one to begin with. Inserting 70+ characters, of course the lot of them would be underdeveloped and serve as mere fodder.

      The manga's adaptation of events does feel more like a battle royale in the sense that it's briefly sifting through the various concurrent fights in juxtaposition to the anime where the latter had a propensity to zero in on one scuffle for a period of time and thus as a whole felt like a myriad of subsequent one-on-ones. However, this still doesn't outweigh how the manga is moving too rapidly and eliminating critical characters flippantly without any of them making a decent contribution. Krillin and Tenshinhan were a total waste of time with their ignominious defeats; U7 might as well have just omitted them altogether and arrived with eight characters (and it's pretty pathetic and inane that I have to admit that).

      Overall, the manga isn't as grandiose as the anime's depiction and therefore is much worse to me, but again, I'll reiterate: the main idea for the arc was never a great one to work with from the beginning.
      The main idea for the arc is fantastic, its just that both adaptations have done a poor job of effectively implementing the idea due to their separate downfalls. Toei's being that they couldn't possibly pull it off due to the poor state of the schedule of the show not allowing for there to be a concise vision, and Toyotaro's being dull because he lacks the talent to pull it off and the format of the monthly manga isn't super supportive of a battle royale idea when in publication.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun May 20, 2018 3:09 am

      JazzMazz wrote: The main idea for the arc is fantastic, its just that both adaptations have done a poor job of effectively implementing the idea due to their separate downfalls. Toei's being that they couldn't possibly pull it off due to the poor state of the schedule of the show not allowing for there to be a concise vision, and Toyotaro's being dull because he lacks the talent to pull it off and the format of the monthly manga isn't super supportive of a battle royale idea when in publication.
      Nah, I still don't agree. Judging from the episode where Zeno appeared after U7 beat U6, the original intent was to have all 12 universes participate, which would have been 120 characters. Evidently, they saw that would have been a bad idea to introduce that quantity of characters and it was cut down to 80. Even then, it's still an exorbitant amount of characters in such a short time and it would have been very difficult for every character to have been fleshed out to have a reasonable amount of screentime and contributions that many have excoriated this arc for lacking. The arc would have then been too long. It could have done better with a lesser amount of characters. But that's just my opinion.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by JazzMazz » Sun May 20, 2018 3:33 am

      TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:
      JazzMazz wrote: The main idea for the arc is fantastic, its just that both adaptations have done a poor job of effectively implementing the idea due to their separate downfalls. Toei's being that they couldn't possibly pull it off due to the poor state of the schedule of the show not allowing for there to be a concise vision, and Toyotaro's being dull because he lacks the talent to pull it off and the format of the monthly manga isn't super supportive of a battle royale idea when in publication.
      Nah, I still don't agree. Judging from the episode where Zeno appeared after U7 beat U6, the original intent was to have all 12 universes participate, which would have been 120 characters. Evidently, they saw that would have been a bad idea to introduce that quantity of characters and it was cut down to 80. Even then, it's still an exorbitant amount of characters in such a short time and it would have been very difficult for every character to have been fleshed out to have a reasonable amount of screentime and contributions that many have excoriated this arc for lacking. The arc would have then been too long. It could have done better with a lesser amount of characters. But that's just my opinion.
      Not every character needs to be fleshed out. The Yuyu Hakusho Dark Tournament handled a similar cast size of characters effectively without feeling too over crowded. To do this, they willingly sacrificed characters as fodder to make the other teams look good, but they also made sure their was an immense variation in battles and the levels of teamwork to give the fights some gravitas.

      Yes, it would require a lot of talent(something I don't think Toyotaro possesses an incredible amount of) and time(something the Toei staff sorely lacked) to pull off, but its far from anything impossible.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by sangofe » Sun May 20, 2018 4:21 am

      shadowfox87 wrote: In a former interview, Toyotaro said that his manga will be ahead of the anime in the future.
      He did not say that.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by JazzMazz » Sun May 20, 2018 4:34 am

      sangofe wrote:
      shadowfox87 wrote: In a former interview, Toyotaro said that his manga will be ahead of the anime in the future.
      He did not say that.
      He did, but I'm also sure in a more recent comment he said something along the lines of "drats, the anime got ahead of me again."

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Bullza » Sun May 20, 2018 7:24 am

      It's pretty good just not nearly to the same level as the anime. It's just as entertaining.

      At least there you got a sense of who the characters were even if it was brief. In the manga you don't, characters are just eliminated left and right and a bunch have been eliminated off screen.

      People complained at how Krillin and Tien were portrayed in the anime but it was done a lot better in the anime. Same with Piccolo.

      One thing that is better about the manga is how they've balanced out the eliminations, it's not all U7.

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      Re: What’s everyone’s opinion on how the manga has so far handled the Universe Survival arc compared to the anime?

      Post by Exline » Sun May 20, 2018 9:38 am

      Marlowe89 wrote:
      Exline wrote: So what if it's considered padding? If it's great entertainment, then there shouldn't be a problem whether its fluff or not. We need time away from the action to sort of relax. We cant have fight after fight after fight after fight. We'd be drained.
      I wouldn't argue that Katopesla's gags were "great entertainment" or even particularly well-done, especially with how Toei tends to repeat the same joke in different scenes. The problem is that the nature of the tournament doesn't leave any room for breaks because it's one giant chaotic fight for survival, so the presence of padding feels downright incongruent with the setting of the arc. Toei wrote the tournament as if it was more of a gauntlet rather than a proper battle royale; Toyotaro is doing the opposite.

      If you prefer one and not the other, that's fine, but don't hate the player, hate the game.
      Exline wrote: I wouldn't call each Universe's 10 best fighters a couple of mooks.
      I strongly disagree with that. They were mooks in the anime and they're mooks in the manga, and their character designs definitely show it. I guess we'll see if Obuni has any relevance in the manga.
      This is the major problem of trying to keep everything consistent. It gets a bit boring when everyone is just following the rules and not trying to break them.
      It's the one thing I commend Toei for doing. The characterization, the shifts between fights, the build up of dialogue and relationships between characters, the small subplots, etc. It's what makes the arc as whole memorable rather than the small boring fights we've been getting from Toyotaro.

      The Ribrianne gag was pretty funny as well this chapter. It's a breather from the many fights we were shown in the beginning of this chapter involving the other U7 participants. I don't see whats wrong with gags and characterizing some characters. It's make for some entertaining content that doesn't dramatically halt the pacing of the arc.

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