DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by Meshack » Sat May 19, 2018 1:23 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Logania wrote:Yes, which would make sense if Vegeta was just using it for long periods in the tournament and messing around, but he only transformed to Cabba to show him there are levels higher that he can reach and that's it. Whis wasn't saying him using it for prolonged periods drains him to 1/10th power, simply transforming into SSJB caused him to lose so much power which is ridiculous, as he transforms so much in a short time against Black, which goes against Whis's statement in the first place.

I know the reasoning and concept why it wouldn't be draining nearly as much energy, it was an idea used back on Namek with people using their energy in sharp bursts to conserve energy until they need it. I would be totally on board but the reasoning by Whis in the tournament earlier in the series just goes completely 180 against Blue later on for me.
Vegeta transformed into an SSB and then used it against Cabba. This does have a stamina drain just like transforming into SSJ3 does. He didn't do it in short bursts like he did with Black. Also, you have to understand that he spent 1 year of training in the Room of Spirit and Time to practice to be able to even switch back and forth multiple times. Goku even commented that Vegeta surpassed him because even he never did that. Goku only switched once from SSG to SSB against Hit.
Who said Super Saiyan 3 still has the same drain from before? Gokou has gotten far stronger than what he was during the Majin-Boo Arc so Gokou using Super Saiyan 3 multiple times and no comment on the drain proves the massive drain is gone.

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat May 19, 2018 2:15 pm

Meshack wrote:Who said Super Saiyan 3 still has the same drain from before? Gokou has gotten far stronger than what he was during the Majin-Boo Arc so Gokou using Super Saiyan 3 multiple times and no comment on the drain proves the massive drain is gone.
I didn't say that SSJ3 has the same stamina drain as before, but it still has stamina drain nonetheless. Yes, Goku has gotten far stronger, he can go from base to SSJ3 easily. Before, he had to power up considerably and it took a lot of effort. Still, the more stable ki forms of SSG and SSB have already replaced SSJ3. The form is obsolete now. If in the future, he combines god ki with SSJ3, then it would be cool.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by Meshack » Sat May 19, 2018 3:01 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Meshack wrote:Who said Super Saiyan 3 still has the same drain from before? Gokou has gotten far stronger than what he was during the Majin-Boo Arc so Gokou using Super Saiyan 3 multiple times and no comment on the drain proves the massive drain is gone.
I didn't say that SSJ3 has the same stamina drain as before, but it still has stamina drain nonetheless. Yes, Goku has gotten far stronger, he can go from base to SSJ3 easily. Before, he had to power up considerably and it took a lot of effort. Still, the more stable ki forms of SSG and SSB have already replaced SSJ3. The form is obsolete now. If in the future, he combines god ki with SSJ3, then it would be cool.
The form may be obsolete for Gokou and Vegeta but not for Gotenks and maybe Trunks in the future if he returns.

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by Miracles » Sat May 19, 2018 5:47 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Miracles wrote:The fact that Beerus even stated that god's red blaze still burns inside Goku and became his own does not mean SSJG was temporary but the form itself became Goku's.
It could be interpreted that way, yes. That, SSG is still inside Goku. However, most people interpreted that SSJ Goku is as strong as SSG and that he didn't lose any power. This is what created the confusion of the two base theory in which Goku's base is as strong as a SSG. However, in the manga, that was never the case. Goku never fights Beerus in space as a SSJ. The fight ends as soon as SSG's time was up. All the fights in which Goku base fought Beerus never occurred in the manga especially that one where Beerus was wearing a Monaka costume which I consider filler. In the Tournament of Power, we saw Goku base fight Jiren and the difference when he transformed into SSG. Hence, there's a clear distinction between SSG and base even in the anime now.
Even the Z senshi make a clear distinction, sensing Goku when he reverts back to base/SSJ from god in both BOG and Super.
The fandom just botched things up, believing there such a thing as "base god."

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat May 19, 2018 7:53 pm

Miracles wrote:Even the Z senshi make a clear distinction, sensing Goku when he reverts back to base/SSJ from god in both BOG and Super.
The fandom just botched things up, believing there such a thing as "base god."
Yep lol. One of the reasons why I made this thread.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by OLKv3 » Sun May 20, 2018 7:31 am

We know all the stuff Toriyama liked and included in the anime, but it's much harder to tell what he liked enough to put into the manga. Toyotaro said it happens, but whenever similar things show up in the manga, everyone assumes it's just from the outline

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:21 am

It was never stated anywhere that Goku absorbed the SSG transformation into his base. It was stated and shown that he absorbed the POWER of the initial transformation at the time into his base and surpassed it. Hence why base Copy-Vegeta>SSJ3 Gotenks and Goku using the SSG transformation again.
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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:39 am

Its funny how fans of the manga only arguments for why they prefer are 90% power scaling (even though its scaling is actually worse than the anime, especially in the ToP arc lol). They never admit the fact that the manga features little to no character development for anyone, that every main antagonist in the manga is an incompetent jobber compared to their anime versions (especially Hit and Black), how the manga makes every new character shallower by removing the traits that made them interesting in the first (like the Kale-Caulifia bond, or Hit's stoicism, or Toppo's love of justice, etc), how nearly everyone who isnt Goku or Vegeta is a useless background character, including Future Trunks (no, Trunks landing a single off-guard attack on a weaker M.Zamasu doesn't make him relevant lol. He and Mai got little to no focus nor development in the manga compared to the anime and I'm not talking about power-ups), how Jiren is even blander of a character in the manga (he acts exactly like he did in the anime ToP, doing nothing to help his teammates despite supposedly being more heroic in this version :roll: ) how Kale in the manga makes zero sense when it comes to powerscaling, and most of all, how Toyotaro has a habit of creating BS explanations for things that only create more contradictions in the story, like Goku Black's zenkais or Kale's mindset when berzerk.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:03 am

One correction: Naruto's clones don't divide his power the way multiform does in DB. All his clones are just as powerful as the original.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:03 am

ekrolo2 wrote:One correction: Naruto's clones don't divide his power the way multiform does in DB. All his clones are just as powerful as the original.
Huh? The Kage Bushin no Jutsu divides the user's chakra evenly. Clones can absorb more chakra if they want later though. He for example, during his battle with Pain, had some clones as back up that absorbed nature energy for Sage Mode. Chakra is analogous to ki. Hence, in this case, each clone is only using a fraction of the original user's power.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Source: Naruto Manga, Chapter 100
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:41 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:One correction: Naruto's clones don't divide his power the way multiform does in DB. All his clones are just as powerful as the original.
Huh? The Kage Bushin no Jutsu divides the user's chakra evenly. Clones can absorb more chakra if they want later though. He for example, during his battle with Pain, had some clones as back up that absorbed nature energy for Sage Mode. Chakra is analogous to ki. Hence, in this case, each clone is only using a fraction of the original user's power.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Source: Naruto Manga, Chapter 100
This was retconed later on, otherwise Naruto's clones along with Naruto himself would've gotten slaughtered a dozen times over if his power was cut down in half or to a thousandth.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by Bergamo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:21 am

ricky84 wrote:Its funny how fans of the manga only arguments for why they prefer are 90% power scaling (even though its scaling is actually worse than the anime, especially in the ToP arc lol). They never admit the fact that the manga features little to no character development for anyone, that every main antagonist in the manga is an incompetent jobber compared to their anime versions (especially Hit and Black), how the manga makes every new character shallower by removing the traits that made them interesting in the first (like the Kale-Caulifia bond, or Hit's stoicism, or Toppo's love of justice, etc), how nearly everyone who isnt Goku or Vegeta is a useless background character, including Future Trunks (no, Trunks landing a single off-guard attack on a weaker M.Zamasu doesn't make him relevant lol. He and Mai got little to no focus nor development in the manga compared to the anime and I'm not talking about power-ups), how Jiren is even blander of a character in the manga (he acts exactly like he did in the anime ToP, doing nothing to help his teammates despite supposedly being more heroic in this version :roll: ) how Kale in the manga makes zero sense when it comes to powerscaling, and most of all, how Toyotaro has a habit of creating BS explanations for things that only create more contradictions in the story, like Goku Black's zenkais or Kale's mindset when berzerk.
Stop.

Manga fans aren't part of a hivemind, and your opinion isn't fact.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:39 am

ricky84 wrote:It was never stated anywhere that Goku absorbed the SSG transformation into his base. It was stated and shown that he absorbed the POWER of the initial transformation at the time into his base and surpassed it. Hence why base Copy-Vegeta>SSJ3 Gotenks and Goku using the SSG transformation again.
Copy Vegeta has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of SSG. If you want to count Copy Vegeta and the Potafu arc as part of the main continuity, be my guest. The SSG transformation is not what Goku absorbed. What he absorbed was god ki. You can call it "power", but that is vague. Essentially, Goku felt god ki for the first time in his life. When SSG expired, he pulled out fractions of god ki from his body to continue fighting Beerus. These fractions of god ki were added to his regular SSJ form which allowed him to fight even without SSG. Evidence that he was using a majority of mortal ki was given when Piccolo could sense Goku's ki. None of this happened in the manga though. In the manga, as soon as SSG expired, the fight ended. Then, later, he trained with Whis, to pull out all of that god ki into his SSJ to create SSB. The reason he couldn't transform into SSG again immediately is because he did not fully control god ki. In Revival of F, Goku used again fractions of god ki in his base to fight Freeza. That's the only reason his base > Freeza and why he didn't transform into SSG. For Vegeta, it was the same thing. He didn't need a ritual to achieve SSG. All he needed was mastery and training of ki control to create god ki himself.
ricky84 wrote:Its funny how fans of the manga only arguments for why they prefer are 90% power scaling (even though its scaling is actually worse than the anime, especially in the ToP arc lol). They never admit the fact that the manga features little to no character development for anyone, that every main antagonist in the manga is an incompetent jobber compared to their anime versions (especially Hit and Black), how the manga makes every new character shallower by removing the traits that made them interesting in the first (like the Kale-Caulifia bond, or Hit's stoicism, or Toppo's love of justice, etc), how nearly everyone who isnt Goku or Vegeta is a useless background character, including Future Trunks (no, Trunks landing a single off-guard attack on a weaker M.Zamasu doesn't make him relevant lol. He and Mai got little to no focus nor development in the manga compared to the anime and I'm not talking about power-ups), how Jiren is even blander of a character in the manga (he acts exactly like he did in the anime ToP, doing nothing to help his teammates despite supposedly being more heroic in this version :roll: ) how Kale in the manga makes zero sense when it comes to powerscaling, and most of all, how Toyotaro has a habit of creating BS explanations for things that only create more contradictions in the story, like Goku Black's zenkais or Kale's mindset when berzerk.
The manga is not meant for several pages and panels dedicated to character "development". That is what the anime is for and it does an excellent job of it. The anime is released weekly while the manga is monthly. All anime are always more detailed, more frames, and hence have the ability to focus on things like emotion and development or romance compared to manga. Toyotaro has a schedule he has to follow and produce a chapter per month. His job is not to portray character development of minor characters. He has to finish by December this year. Hence, why the pace is rushed so that the subsequent chapters can focus on Kefla, Goku, Jiren, and UI. Kale holding hands with Caulifla and crying is not something Toyotaro is interested in. Rather, in the manga, Kale never assumes control of Berserker. This creates a "need" for fusion to control her. When two people fuse that are already transformed, the resulting fusion is also transformed and they cannot revert back to base. This is why Base Kale wasn't shown. Merged Zamasu was shown correctly in this case, since SS Rose Black fused with Zamasu. This was done incorrectly in the anime since Base Kale was shown.

Kale actually makes more sense in terms of powerscaling. In the anime, Base Kale is a shy girl that is being used as a punching bag by fodder in the ToP. In the manga, Base Kale is shown to be stronger than SSJ Caulifla, fighting with Golden Freeza. She's the legendary saiyan that appears 1000 years. These saiyans are born with a high battle power and hence do not need an explanation as to why they are this strong in their base. Broly has also shown to be stronger than SSJ Vegeta in his base with the collar. Without the collar, Broly is stronger than SSG. Since the base is this strong, it allows for the BSSJ multiplier to be LOWER than the SSG multiplier. If her base wasn't that strong, it makes absolutely no sense mathematically because she would have to go from a character who's very weak to near SSG/SSB.

The zenkai was shown incorrectly in the anime because a Saiyan does not get stronger during a fight but after getting healed. The zenkai is even defined in the Daizenshuu 7 before DBS came out. It's a known fact. In the manga, Black doesn't get stronger until after Future Zamasu heals him. It is then stated very explicitly by Shin that the main reason why Black even teamed up with another version of himself is so that he could get more zenkai and make Goku's body more his own each time he regenerates. I'm not sure why you think the manga creates a contradiction when it is consistent with the zenkai we know from DBZ. Goku and Vegeta have trained their bodies already past the saturation point of zenkai. Hence, they barely get zenkai. It is the reason why Vegeta even after eating a senzu bean got little to no zenkai while Black did. Black is Zamasu inside Goku's body and hence, each time he regenerates, it's Zamasu's ki being used for each cell. This allows him to cross that zenkai saturation point. This is also the reason why SS Rose came to be instead of SSB because the god ki is from Zamasu not from Goku or Vegeta. Each person's ki is unique and different.
ekrolo2 wrote: This was retconed later on, otherwise Naruto's clones along with Naruto himself would've gotten slaughtered a dozen times over if his power was cut down in half or to a thousandth.
Show me a databook or manga chapter where it shows it was retconned. Naruto's clones do get slaughtered frequently. They are usually used as bait or tactic to create an opportunity or learn information. Each time a clone fails to attack the opponent and is destroyed, the user gains more information to plan their next attack. As I said previously, each individual clone can absorb nature energy to get Sage Mode. However, the chakra is still divided among all clones. Chakra isn't just magically created out of thin air. If it was, then any person could use this technique and create unlimited clones. There's a limit to how many clones one can create based on that user's chakra. Each person has a set amount of chakra. The reason Naruto can create so many clones is because he has a lot of chakra given to him by Kurama.
Last edited by shadowfox87 on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:04 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:It was never stated anywhere that Goku absorbed the SSG transformation into his base. It was stated and shown that he absorbed the POWER of the initial transformation at the time into his base and surpassed it. Hence why base Copy-Vegeta>SSJ3 Gotenks and Goku using the SSG transformation again.
Copy Vegeta has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of SSG. If you want to count Copy Vegeta and the Potafu arc as part of the main continuity, be my guest. The SSG transformation is not what Goku absorbed. What he absorbed was god ki. You can call it "power", but that is vague. Essentially, Goku felt god ki for the first time in his life. When SSG expired, he pulled out fractions of god ki from his body to continue fighting Beerus. These fractions of god ki were added to his regular SSJ form which allowed him to fight even without SSG. Then, later, he trained with Whis, to pull out all of that god ki into his SSJ to create SSB. The reason he couldn't transform into SSG again immediately is because he did not fully control god ki. In Revival of F, Goku used again fractions of god ki in his base to fight Freeza. That's the only reason his base > Freeza and why he didn't transform into SSG. For Vegeta, it was the same thing. He didn't need a ritual to achieve SSG. All he needed was mastery and training of ki control to create god ki himself.

1. There is no such thing as filler in the DBS anime, since isn't an adaption of any pre-existing work. All of it counts, you can't ignore the Potafu arc like you could the Garlic Jr. arc of Z.

2. God ki has nothing to do with strength, it was never stated in any DB media to have anything to do with strength. All kais naturally have God ki, yet most are weaker than a Cell jr. Hit, Golden Freeza, Aniraza and even Jiren don't have any God ki yet all of them are at least SSB level.
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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:10 pm

ricky84 wrote: 2. God ki has nothing to do with strength, it was never stated in any DB media to have anything to do with strength. All kais naturally have God ki, yet most are weaker than a Cell jr. Hit, Golden Freeza, Aniraza and even Jiren don't have any God ki yet all of them are at least SSB level.
Look at this way, take two twin brothers that are exactly alike and have the same battle power. Give one god ki and the other one not. The one with god ki will be stronger. The Shinjin were born with innate god ki and hence an average Kaioshin would be stronger than Freeza but weaker than Perfect Cell. However, having god ki doesn't automatically make you on the level of Beerus or a Hakaishin. The distinct transformation of SSG is unique to Saiyans and hence, you cannot lump Shinjin and use the same logic. Goku and Vegeta trained their whole life and it is due to this training that their bodies are already very strong. The god ki added refinement to their ki. In Dragon Ball, there are physical limits to the body itself so the only way to get stronger is to increase one's ki. So yes, ki DOES have to do with strength. This was even confirmed by Toriyama in his interview:

Image
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-2013/

At the same time, god ki is not necessary for one to be strong. People like Jiren, Golden Freeza, Hit, etc. don't have god ki and still are that strong because they trained their bodies to that level.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:41 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
ricky84 wrote:Its funny how fans of the manga only arguments for why they prefer are 90% power scaling (even though its scaling is actually worse than the anime, especially in the ToP arc lol). They never admit the fact that the manga features little to no character development for anyone, that every main antagonist in the manga is an incompetent jobber compared to their anime versions (especially Hit and Black), how the manga makes every new character shallower by removing the traits that made them interesting in the first (like the Kale-Caulifia bond, or Hit's stoicism, or Toppo's love of justice, etc), how nearly everyone who isnt Goku or Vegeta is a useless background character, including Future Trunks (no, Trunks landing a single off-guard attack on a weaker M.Zamasu doesn't make him relevant lol. He and Mai got little to no focus nor development in the manga compared to the anime and I'm not talking about power-ups), how Jiren is even blander of a character in the manga (he acts exactly like he did in the anime ToP, doing nothing to help his teammates despite supposedly being more heroic in this version :roll: ) how Kale in the manga makes zero sense when it comes to powerscaling, and most of all, how Toyotaro has a habit of creating BS explanations for things that only create more contradictions in the story, like Goku Black's zenkais or Kale's mindset when berzerk.
The manga is not meant for several pages and panels dedicated to character "development". That is what the anime is for and it does an excellent job of it. The anime is released weekly while the manga is monthly. All anime are always more detailed, more frames, and hence have the ability to focus on things like emotion and development or romance compared to manga. Toyotaro has a schedule he has to follow and produce a chapter per month. His job is not to portray character development of minor characters. He has to finish by December this year. Hence, why the pace is rushed so that the subsequent chapters can focus on Kefla, Goku, Jiren, and UI. Kale holding hands with Caulifla and crying is not something Toyotaro is interested in. Rather, in the manga, Kale never assumes control of Berserker. This creates a "need" for fusion to control her. When two people fuse that are already transformed, the resulting fusion is also transformed and they cannot revert back to base. This is why Base Kale wasn't shown. Merged Zamasu was shown correctly in this case, since SS Rose Black fused with Zamasu. This was done incorrectly in the anime since Base Kale was shown.

Kale actually makes more sense in terms of powerscaling. In the anime, Base Kale is a shy girl that is being used as a punching bag by fodder in the ToP. In the manga, Base Kale is shown to be stronger than SSJ Caulifla, fighting with Golden Freeza. She's the legendary saiyan that appears 1000 years. These saiyans are born with a high battle power and hence do not need an explanation as to why they are this strong in their base. Broly has also shown to be stronger than SSJ Vegeta in his base with the collar. Without the collar, Broly is stronger than SSG. Since the base is this strong, it allows for the BSSJ multiplier to be LOWER than the SSG multiplier. If her base wasn't that strong, it makes absolutely no sense mathematically because she would have to go from a character who's very weak to near SSG/SSB.

The zenkai was shown incorrectly in the anime because a Saiyan does not get stronger during a fight but after getting healed. The zenkai is even defined in the Daizenshuu 7 before DBS came out. It's a known fact. In the manga, Black doesn't get stronger until after Future Zamasu heals him. It is then stated very explicitly by Shin that the main reason why Black even teamed up with another version of himself is so that he could get more zenkai and make Goku's body more his own each time he regenerates. I'm not sure why you think the manga creates a contradiction when it is consistent with the zenkai we know from DBZ. Goku and Vegeta have trained their bodies already past the saturation point of zenkai. Hence, they barely get zenkai. It is the reason why Vegeta even after eating a senzu bean got little to no zenkai while Black did. Black is Zamasu inside Goku's body and hence, each time he regenerates, it's Zamasu's ki being used for each cell. This allows him to cross that zenkai saturation point. This is also the reason why SS Rose came to be instead of SSB because the god ki is from Zamasu not from Goku or Vegeta. Each person's ki is unique and different.
1. That is an extremely bad excuse you have the lack of character development in the manga. There are plently of at least above average manga out there (both monthly and weekly) that provide plenty of character development for much of its supporting cast. Its not like Toyotaro is on some tight deadline to end this arc. Hell, Toriyama was on a much tighter schedule when writing the original manga, yet manage to put in way more characterization for the whole cast than Toyotaro does.

2. It sounds like you are going out of your way rationalize the manga's poor writing decisions smh. Fusion as way to control Kale is rather dumb idea. It would have been a better idea to have her learn to control and master it and break her limits like she did in the anime (which is what the saiyans always do with transformations over time). They should have saved the potara for when they are up against someone they can't beat separately, like how fusion is normally used.

3. No, Kale's powerscaling in the manga makes no sense at all. First, she is able to beat up Golden Freeza, one shot Aniraza and throw hands with MSSB Goku in one chapter. Next she is seen getting beat up by the fodder Pride Troopers that SSJ Goku and Vegeta could easily slap. And the explanation they give for why it happens is really dumb (speed & skill). If that was the case then why didn't G.Freeza and MSSB Goku (who are much stronger, faster and more skilled then those fodder troopers) she beat her down?

4. It was never stated anywhere that the U6 saiyans were simply born with there high power levels. Thats baseless headcanon you pulled out of nowhere.

5. The only reason why base Kale was doing badly in the anime was (as pointed out by SethTheProgrammer) she was under a lot of anxiety and nervousness, and you you are under these you can't tap into your whole powers. It the same problem Gohan had for much of Z until he becomes SSJ2.

6. The ability to become stronger as you fight is a completely different thing from zenkais, and this ability was mentioned in the original manga and Daizenshuu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcvx8bERWs.

And the explanation for Black's zenkai's in the manga is ridiculously convoluted. Toyotaro would have been better off if he just stuck with the classic zenkai ability like with Cell.

7. Base Broly was never shown fighting anybody in Movie 8. It was Restrained SSJ Broly that tanked ASSJ Vegeta's attacks in that film. And there is no official multiplier for the Berzerk/LSSJ form nor is there any official info on base Broly's power level. So everything you written there was baseless headcanon.
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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:47 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
ricky84 wrote: 2. God ki has nothing to do with strength, it was never stated in any DB media to have anything to do with strength. All kais naturally have God ki, yet most are weaker than a Cell jr. Hit, Golden Freeza, Aniraza and even Jiren don't have any God ki yet all of them are at least SSB level.
Look at this way, take two twin brothers that are exactly alike and have the same battle power. Give one god ki and the other one not. The one with god ki will be stronger. The Shinjin were born with innate god ki and hence an average Kaioshin would be stronger than Freeza but weaker than Perfect Cell. However, having god ki doesn't automatically make you on the level of Beerus or a Hakaishin. The distinct transformation of SSG is unique to Saiyans and hence, you cannot lump Shinjin and use the same logic. Goku and Vegeta trained their whole life and it is due to this training that their bodies are already very strong. The god ki added refinement to their ki. In Dragon Ball, there are physical limits to the body itself so the only way to get stronger is to increase one's ki. So yes, ki DOES have to do with strength. This was even confirmed by Toriyama in his interview:

Image
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-2013/

At the same time, god ki is not necessary for one to be strong. People like Jiren, Golden Freeza, Hit, etc. don't have god ki and still are that strong because they trained their bodies to that level.
Absolutely nothing in that interview from Toriyama was said about God ki. Toriyama didn't even make any distinctions between God ki and mortal ki there, you are projecting your headcanon onto Toriyama.

There is not a single piece of official material that says God ki has anything to do with raw power nor that god ki is a separate supply of ki.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:07 pm

ricky84 wrote: 1. That is an extremely bad excuse you have the lack of character development in the manga. There are plently of at least above average manga out there (both monthly and weekly) that provide plenty of character development for much of its supporting cast. Its not like Toyotaro is on some tight deadline to end this arc. Hell, Toriyama was on a much tighter schedule when writing the original manga, yet manage to put in way more characterization for the whole cast than Toyotaro does.
Bad excuse? Of course, Toriyama was on a much tighter schedule in his younger days and he did put more characterization. You're right. The difference is Toriyama's manga was weekly. In this case, Toyotaro is also on a schedule but his manga is monthly. If he did publish weekly, then he would have more chapters to do more things and include character development. Sadly, he does not but it may change in the future as Toyotaro has already stated in the 2016 interview on AnimeNewsNetwork that his manga will be ahead of the anime in the future. With all that aside, if I want character development, emotional drama, etc, I will watch the anime. I do not want the manga chapters to be filled with any of that at all.
ricky84 wrote:2. It sounds like you are going out of your way rationalize the manga's poor writing decisions smh. Fusion as way to control Kale is rather dumb idea. It would have been a better idea to have her learn to control and master it and break her limits like she did in the anime (which is what the saiyans always do with transformations over time). They should have saved the potara for when they are up against someone they can't beat separately, like how fusion is normally used.
Not going out of my way at all. The manga has mistakes and things I don't agree with sometimes, but overall, it has less plot inconsistencies than the anime which I have already highlighted in the first post of this thread. You are welcome to counterpoint those inconsistencies if you can. If you think that Kale and Caulifla holding hands and crying to get Kale to control Berserk is a "better" story than Kale losing control and them being forced to fuse, then that is your perspective. Broly in the movie will also lose control of his Berserker form. That is the whole idea and point behind the Legendary Super Saiyan - that they are so wild and overflowing with power, that they destroy themselves. If Kale could overcome all that, it would lose the "threat" factor and feeling of what the Legendary Saiyan even means. Having a situation which requires fusion is much more unique than just using fusion each time they face an enemy they cannot defeat which is what has already occurred before.
ricky84 wrote:3. No, Kale's powerscaling in the manga makes no sense at all. First, she is able to beat up Golden Freeza, one shot Aniraza and throw hands with MSSB Goku in one chapter. Next she is seen getting beat up by the fodder Pride Troopers that SSJ Goku and Vegeta could easily slap. And the explanation they give for why it happens is really dumb (speed & skill). If that was the case then why didn't G.Freeza and MSSB Goku (who are much stronger, faster and more skilled then those fodder troopers) she beat her down?
Right, so you rather have all the main characters from Universe 7, using their highest transformations and doing their signature attacks, Sailor Moon style, to defeat Anilaza. I'm glad that Toyotaro eliminated Anilaza with 1 kick because of how silly Anilalza is. Golden Freeza and SSB Goku were both caught off guard and surprised by Kale. In that same chapter, Golden Freeza told Goku to not interfere and that he just needs to get serious. Technique and speed play a major role in fighting ability, not just power. Yamoshi was supposedly the original Legendary Super Saiyan who was outnumbered and defeated. Kale is also another Legendary Super Saiyan, whose power while is overwhelming, was outnumbered and defeated by Pride Troopers coordination. Of course, each Pride Trooper apart from Dyspo, Toppo, and Jiren, are weaker than SSJ Goku. However, as both the anime and manga have shown us, regardless of how strong you are, if you are caught off guard or surprised, you can get hurt. Android 17 for example, blasted Jiren from behind and was able to damage him. Goku was scratched by a bullet before the ToP and was also harmed by Sorbet's laser. In addition, Vegeta stated that Kale is running out of stamina. This is the weakness of being a Berserker Super Saiyan and they highlighted this properly. Hence, it should be no surprise that Kale was shown to be this way.
ricky84 wrote:4. It was never stated anywhere that the U6 saiyans were simply born with there high power levels. Thats baseless headcanon you pulled out of nowhere.
I don't recall ever saying that U6 saiyans are born with high battle powers. A legendary saiyan appears every 1000 years in both U6 and U7. These saiyans are born with a high battle power. Kale and Broly are both evidence of that. In general, we've seen Cabba and Caulifla, be much stronger than the U7 saiyans. The U6 Sadala underwent a different course of evolution. We cannot say that all Saiyans are the same. I'm not sure how you find that as "baseless headcannon" when it should be obvious common sense.
ricky84 wrote:5. The only reason why base Kale was doing badly in the anime was (as pointed out by SethTheProgrammer) she was under a lot of anxiety and nervousness, and you you are under these you can't tap into your whole powers. It the same problem Gohan had for much of Z until he becomes SSJ2.
Just because a youtuber says it, does not make it true lol. Kale has always been depicted as the shy girl even before the ToP. When Cabba came and met Kale, she was still shy. Yet, in the manga, Kale in her base, was able to steal something from SSJ Cabba's hand without him even noticing it. There is no need for anxiety in this situation at all. Because Base Kale's power is shown to be so low in the anime, it requires that the BSSJ multiplier be higher than SSG to make any mathematical sense. In the upcoming movie though, as I already said previously, Base Broly with collar > SSJ Vegeta and without collar > SSG Goku.
ricky84 wrote:6. The ability to become stronger as you fight is a completely different thing from zenkais, and this ability was mentioned in the original manga and Daizenshuu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcvx8bERWs.

And the explanation for Black's zenkai's in the manga is ridiculously convoluted. Toyotaro would have been better off if he just stuck with the classic zenkai ability like with Cell.
You should not be referencing youtube videos, but actual source material found on kanzenshuu, manga, or anime. There's nothing in that video that even contradicts my point lol. No matter, I shall do your homework for you. This is the quote directly from Daizenshuu 4:

Image
The zenkai as I already stated previously, is literally defined in the Daizenshuu. It states that the battle power only increases after being "revived". The ability of a Saiyan to get stronger after being healed from injuries. The more severe the injuries, the larger the zenkai boost is. For example, if a Saiyan is near the brink of death, they will get a larger zenkai boost. There is no such thing as getting stronger DURING the battle for Saiyans. If that was the case, all of DBZ would just be Goku and Vegeta getting stronger DURING the battle. In the anime, they did try to do something like this with Hit's "Improvement" ability where he didn't get stronger during a battle but he "improved". Yet, later in the anime, we never heard of it again. I mean if you're this late in the game and do not understand what a zenkai is, I'm not sure what to tell you.
ricky84 wrote:7. Base Broly was never shown fighting anybody in Movie 8. It was Restrained SSJ Broly that tanked ASSJ Vegeta's attacks in that film. And there is no official multiplier for the Berzerk/LSSJ form nor is there any official info on base Broly's power level. So everything you written there was baseless headcanon.
Where the heck did Movie 8 suddenly come from? I'm talking about the upcoming movie in which the trailer has already shown us Base Broly fighting SSJ Vegeta and pushing him back as well as Base Broly without collar fighting SSB Goku. Movie 8 is not canon to the main continuity. I never even stated anything about power levels or multipliers for BSSJ. I simply stated what we observed from the trailer - that Base Broly with collar > SSJ Vegeta and Base Broly without collar > SSB Goku. You don't need any explicit power levels to figure that out. It should be very obvious.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by Aizamasu » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:31 am

ricky84 wrote: 3. No, Kale's powerscaling in the manga makes no sense at all. First, she is able to beat up Golden Freeza, one shot Aniraza and throw hands with MSSB Goku in one chapter. Next she is seen getting beat up by the fodder Pride Troopers that SSJ Goku and Vegeta could easily slap. And the explanation they give for why it happens is really dumb (speed & skill). If that was the case then why didn't G.Freeza and MSSB Goku (who are much stronger, faster and more skilled then those fodder troopers) she beat her down?
Vegeta literally says that Kale's power was dropping so Kale was nowhere near Blue tier when the Pride troopers were beating her.

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Re: DBS Manga vs Anime Differences

Post by ricky84 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am

Where in the manga does he say this? Do you have a source to post?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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