Toyotarou tracing thread

[Nafno]

So what's the problem then? I share Baggie's opinion. I always thought that Toyotaro lacked creativity (and narrative skills). Consequently, seen him tracing obviously underlines my position.

How is that "unreasonable"?

It's unreasonable because your position isn't factually based on anything, so it's obviously not underlined by anything either. You're making a connection where it doesn't exist and extrapolating a mistake to his entire line of work, regardless of whether his other stuff was previously traced or not (and as far as we know, it wasn't).

I understand why people aren't happy about it, I'm disappointed as well. Doesn't change my point. Going one step further and implying it supports a criticism that somehow extends to the entire manga is ridiculous, and nobody should take your stance seriously.

First of all, you don't know how factually based my opinion is. I haven't talked here about the reasons why I think Toyotaro lacks both talent and creativity. Even if I did, it is art, so it is a matter of subjectivity.

That does not change the fact that I do think he is not creative and not talented. And then, he traces. So it obviously underlines my opinion, which is perfectly reasonable.

The "extrapolating a mistake to his entire line of work" is a change of the logic trajectory you are constantly making, it is not true, and Baggie has perfectly explained it to you. It is not "Toyotaro has traced once, so his work is not creative". It is "I think Toyotaro's work is not creative, and tracing underlines that opinion". I already had that opinion before the tracing, and I do not need the tracing to have it.

[Marlowe89]

This makes no sense. You can't measure someone's opinion on something as subjective as art or storytelling in order to claim they are "factually wrong."

Your rebuttal makes no sense. I never claimed they were factually wrong; the quality of the manga is a subjective matter. I said the connection being made in this instance isn't based on anything factual by itself.

That does not change the fact that I do think he is not creative and not talented. And then, he traces. So it obviously underlines my opinion, which is perfectly reasonable.

The issue of an artist tracing a particular image is neutral to the issue of whether that artist possesses any talent or creativity. A creative artist can feasibly resort to tracing, for example (perhaps from the result of a tight schedule for instance), so it obviously doesn't underline your position because it doesn't sway to one generalization or the other. Your position is irrelevant.

I'm not changing any trajectories in logic so much as pointing out a connection you're trying to make that doesn't exist. If you can prove that Toyotaro had a history of tracing since his career as the official mangaka for Super started, you might have a point, but you can't, so you don't.

[Nafno]

The issue of an artist tracing a particular image is neutral to the issue of whether that artist possesses any talent or creativity. A creative artist can feasibly resort to tracing, for example (perhaps from the result of a tight schedule for instance), so it obviously doesn't underline your position because it doesn't sway to one generalization or the other.

I'm not changing any trajectories in logic so much as pointing out a connection you're trying to make that doesn't exist. If you can prove that Toyotaro had a history of tracing since his career as the official mangaka for Super started, you might have a point, but you can't, so you don't.

I can't point a history of tracing, I never said that he has a history of tracing, him having a history of tracing is completely, totally, utterly and absolutely irrelevant to the issue that you are bringing up.

I can point several cases that for me show Toyotaro's lack of creativity ("copying", not tracing, several strips, would be the major example). And now, he has traced, which is a sign of lack of creativity. Consequently, the tracing underlines my opinion that he lacks creativity. It is really not hard to understand, it is totally reasonable (actually, the unreasonable would be not to think it) and, no matter how you try to twist the logic, that is not going to change.

If I think that a person is violent and tomorrow he kicks someone in the face, it obviously underlines my previous opinion. And I don't need "a history of that person kicking people in their faces" for it.

[PsionicWarrior]

I take Toto's lack of creativity over Toei's eccentricities any day lol

[Nafno]

I take Toto's lack of creativity over Toei's eccentricities any day lol

That is perfectly fine and acceptable. The debate here is not if Toyotaro is creative or not, the debate is that it turns out that if a person that I consider X does something par for the course of an X person and I consider that as a something that underlines my previous opinion, I am being unreasonable.

[Michsi]

This makes no sense. You can't measure someone's opinion on something as subjective as art or storytelling in order to claim they are "factually wrong."

Your rebuttal makes no sense. I never claimed they were factually wrong; the quality of the manga is a subjective matter. I said the connection being made in this instance isn't based on anything factual by itself.
.

They are absolutely connected. A comic artist is judged by both his artistic and narrative skills, not to mention how well he combines the two. If in the eyes of someone, that artist has been under-performing in one area (paneling, story choices, characterization etc) it is only natural that they'd be doubly unhappy with the artist taking short cuts for his illustrations as well.

[Marlowe89]

I can point several cases that for me show Toyotaro's lack of creativity ("copying", not tracing, several strips, would be the major example). And now, he has traced, which is a sign of lack of creativity.

That's not how it works. You can't say "Oh he did some homages in the past for the manga so that demonstrates the artist's lack of creativity" (it doesn't, by the way) only to turn around and claim that the act of him tracing, a totally unrelated and altogether different action, outlines the same viewpoint.

Moreover, one misguided act that lacks creativity doesn't support the viewpoint that the agent lacks creativity as an artist in general. That's asinine, commits several logical fallacies, and reeks of you desperately trying to search for points to support a preconceived notion you had to begin with, which is disingenuous as well as intellectually dishonest.

Your analogy on violence actively harms your point instead of supporting it. It would be like suggesting that you're predisposed to violence because you committed a violent action at one point.

I can't point a history of tracing, I never said that he has a history of tracing, him having a history of tracing is completely, totally, utterly and absolutely irrelevant to the issue that you are bringing up.

Of course you can't, because then you'd actually have an argument. It's relevant because it's the only thing that could possibly establish a connection of any kind between this instance and the past transgressions of an artist. This isn't complicated.

[prince212]

I don’t think he is lacking on creativity that much, I thinks he’s lacking on time .
There’s lots of artists that can imitate and copy dragon ball , they should use them more instead of adding more work non related to his manga , toyo has enough with drawing 2 pages of the manga per day , considering one day off per week .
He’s got talent for sure , otherwise Shueisha and Toriyama wouldn’t give him the task of doing this manga.
The balance between execution time and results is heavy . Sure you can see nice drawings by other artist on the internet , but will they be able to execute the monthly requirements on time ?
Being a mangaka should be so hard ,especially those who write and draw without assistants.
It’s not fair to compare toyos work with other artists work that have more execution time.
I’m amazed about Oda’s pacing producing chapter after chapter non stop for years , it’s either he’s killing himself or he’s got good assistants... or both of them.

[Nafno]

That's not how it works. You can't say "Oh he did some homages in the past for the manga so that demonstrates the artist's lack of creativity" (it doesn't, by the way) only to turn around and claim that the act of him tracing, a totally unrelated and altogether different action, outlines the same viewpoint.

But I am not trying to convince you, nor anyone, that he is not creative. That is a completely different debate that I am not entering.

The debate here is that you are saying that, and I copy from my previous mesage "if a person that I consider X does something par for the course of an X person and I consider that as a something that underlines my previous opinion, I am being unreasonable". And that is simply a preposterous lie.

Ah, and two different actions can prove the same point. Going by the same analogy I used before, a person that kicks and punches can be labelled violent, and would be absurd to say "you are saying that punching and kicking, a totally unrelated and altogether different action, outlines the same viewpoint".

Moreover, one misguided act that lacks creativity doesn't support the viewpoint that the agent lacks creativity as an artist in general. That's asinine, commits several logical fallacies, and reeks of you desperately trying to search for points to support a preconceived notion you had to begin with, which is disingenuous as well as intellectually dishonest.

A lot of verbal diarrhoea to say absolutely nothing, and completely irrelevant too.

I am not saying that the tracing supports my viewpoint, because I have not tried for a single second to support that viewpoint to begin with. As I said, that is a completely different debate.

Your analogy on violence actively harms your point instead of supporting it. It would be like suggesting that you're predisposed to violence because you committed a violent action at one point.

No... That analogy would be applicable here if I said "Toyotaro has traced, so he is prone to do so again", which is, then again, something that you came up right now and misses my point, your original point and the source of this discussion.

Of course you can't, because then you'd actually have an argument. It's relevant because it's the only thing that could possibly establish a connection of any kind between this instance and the past transgressions of an artist. This isn't complicated.

Aaaaaaaand then again, this has nothing to do with the debate. The reasons I have or not to think that Toyotaro is not creative are not relevant, and I haven't brought any of them to the table. I could think that Toyotaro is not creative because his name starts with a T. That, as stupid as it is, would still be not relevant to this debate.

I repeat, your original position was "if a person that I consider X does something par for the course of an X person and I consider that as a something that underlines my previous opinion, I am being unreasonable". That is false. It has nothing to do with Toyotaro's creativity or lack of it, it is simply a logical mistake.

And that is my only problem, not what you think or I think about Toyotaro's work, that is a debate that could be very interesting and I would like to partake in when his work is finished and if I had time. My problem is that you came here and labelled people as unreasonable for being perfectly reasonable.

[VegettoEX]

I read what you wrote, and I'm explaining why it's incoherent drivel.

A lot of verbal diarrhoea to say absolutely nothing, and completely irrelevant too.

These kinds of posts are made in bad faith and are not representative of Kanzenshuu as a community and what we expect of our members.

Please re-evaluate what it is you are looking to get out of your time here and what you can do better moving forward.

[Fionordequester]

Alright, so, as a non-artist, I'm still a little confused as to what's so bad about tracking.

Even after reading the explanations, the only thing I got was that "tracing" was the mark of someone who isn't very talented. It's "amateurish", "lazy", and a hallmark of "cutting corners".

But what's morally wrong about it? That's my big question. Because as far as I can tell, that's just part of being a professional. You pick and choose where you put in a ton of effort, and where you don't. Like the way animation studios will skimp a little on episodes not important to the story, and then go all-out on the BIG moments, you know?

[Ajay]

But what's morally wrong about it? That's my big question.

Taking someone else's work, tracing the fundamentals of it, and then profiting off of it with no credit is pretty much the big issue for me.

[Miracles]

Why is the entire fandom going mad over one meaningless trace? Is it really such a big deal when some artist traces once in a while?

And why do people say he lacks creativity? Because he traced once? Come on.

It stems from jealousy and because of that, bitterness sets in. Many feel others they wanted could of done what Toyotaro is doing for Toriyama.
Some of the hostility also comes from people felt like Toyotaro didn't respect Hit and Goku Black as opponents/characters the way they wanted.

So now they use this fake outrage over something minute to try and demean the guy hoping some repercussion can come from it.

[Marlowe89]

I repeat, your original position was "if a person that I consider X does something par for the course of an X person and I consider that as a something that underlines my previous opinion, I am being unreasonable". That is false. It has nothing to do with Toyotaro's creativity or lack of it, it is simply a logical mistake.

Your claim that the tracing underlines your point obviously suggests that it's par for the course for an "X person", and that's exactly what I've been disputing the whole time. It wouldn't logically suggest anything else, otherwise you wouldn't have a stance to begin with. You and others were clearly trying to establish a connection between the two; whether you thought he was an uncreative artist beforehand makes no difference to the point I'm making, which is that it's an ill-founded attempt at a connection to begin with.

My point remains. This issue inherently has nothing to do with how creative Toyotaro's work is or isn't in general, so bringing it up to begin with is a fallacy at its premise. Saying something like "This is what happens when you lack ideas you'll eventually stop ripping off ideas from the own series and go beyond it" just exemplifies that line of thinking even further.

[Fionordequester]

But what's morally wrong about it? That's my big question.

Taking someone else's work, tracing the fundamentals of it, and then profiting off of it with no credit is pretty much the big issue for me.

Yeah, but...that's just the fundamentals. Just about everything is derivitative of something, in one way or another. It's like the old adage goes...

Pablo Picasso - "Good artists copy, great artists steal"

And from the sounds of it, Toyotaro didn't do a 1:1 copy of EVERYTHING in the image he traced from. He copied the fundamentals when it came to Goku's torso...but then added little touches of his own when it came to the legs, the fingers, and Goku's expression. It's a mish-mash of stuff he "stole", mixed in with his own touches.

Least, that's how I understood it.

[prince212]

But what's morally wrong about it? That's my big question.

Taking someone else's work, tracing the fundamentals of it, and then profiting off of it with no credit is pretty much the big issue for me.

The issue about the credits was fixed with interest by the internet community. Thank you .
The question is if there’s forgiveness For him or he’s done in his career no matter what he does in the future .
Are the eyes of the criticism gonna be clear or that stain will only be bigger no matter what .
Your opinion seems to be so important in this community, are you done with toyotaro?
If so , who do you want to draw dragon ball super manga ?

[IM21]

Yeah, but...that's just the fundamentals. Just about everything is derivitative of something, in one way or another. It's like the old adage goes...

Pablo Picasso - "Good artists copy, great artists steal"

And from the sounds of it, Toyotaro didn't do a 1:1 copy of EVERYTHING in the image he traced from. He copied the fundamentals when it came to Goku's torso...but then added little touches of his own when it came to the legs, the fingers, and Goku's expression. It's a mish-mash of stuff he "stole", mixed in with his own touches.

Least, that's how I understood it.

That's how i feel. Toyotaro, if you Frankenstein the images, traced the torso and arm/arms. If he did a 1:1 copy it would not be Goku but Captain America. It's just stupid to even talk about it anymore. I am not defending Toyo and he should have change the angle of the image if he used it as a reference, but all of this bashing is going too far (especially on Twitter). From now on some people will check every single image of his and start looking if it was traced. And yes, there are people that draw really nice pictures of Dragon ball, but those guys also have much more time. I am 100% sure Toyo could also draw a great looking picture if he had time. Dragon Garow Lee did a very good job with the Yamcha manga, but he also drew 30-35 images in 3 months while Toyo is doing 45 a month. All Toriyama or Shueisha need to do is slap him and tell him not to do it again. The biggest problem would be if Marvel sued Toyo, but it looks like it won't happen so lets just move on.

[Ajay]

Taking someone else's work, tracing the fundamentals of it, and then profiting off of it with no credit is pretty much the big issue for me.
Yeah, but...that's just the fundamentals. Just about everything is derivitative of something, in one way or another. It's like the old adage goes...
Pablo Picasso - "Good artists copy, great artists steal"
And from the sounds of it, Toyotaro didn't do a 1:1 copy of EVERYTHING in the image he traced from. He copied the fundamentals when it came to Goku's torso...but then added little touches of his own when it came to the legs, the fingers, and Goku's expression. It's a mish-mash of stuff he "stole", mixed in with his own touches.
Least, that's how I understood it.

Right, but that Picasso quote doesn't literally refer to tracing. He's talking about adapting and evolving popular trends, and making things their own. For me, that's referring to how something like The Lion King takes Hamlet and makes it its own thing, rather than tracing an obscure panel from a comic and changing it up a bit. He hasn't really done anything worth praising... it's just throwing a different skin on someone else's work. It just doesn't sit right with me. It's why I'm so vehemently against fan animation channels that trace work with little twists, or with different characters over the skeleton. Profiting off of someone's many hours of work shouldn't be excused because you spent a bit of time changing some things up. It's scummy as all hell.

The issue about the credits was fixed with interest by the internet community. Thank you .
The question is if there’s forgiveness For him or he’s done in his career no matter what he does in the future .
Are the eyes of the criticism gonna be clear or that stain will only be bigger no matter what .
Your opinion seems to be so important in this community, are you done with toyotaro?
If so , who do you want to draw dragon ball super manga ?

Retroactive credit through accusation isn't really a 'fix', but yeah, it's nice that it's out there.

Anyway, no, I'm not done with Toyotaro, I don't hate the Super manga, and man, I really don't care that much about this incident in spite of what a lot of people think, I just get wound up seeing unprofessionalism excused.

Toyotaro's got some talent, but he's seriously lacking the level of skill required for the task. It's been obvious since he began; the issues with basic anatomy are in every chapter. Him tracing something isn't particularly new or surprising to me, it's just more of the same from his AF days. It's kind of depressing he did it in a professional setting this time, though.

I don't envy his position, I'm not out to hunt him down, I'd just kinda like everyone to go, "Oh yeah, that wasn't okay, hope it doesn't happen again", and move on. Instead, it's kinda been used as an excuse to fuel anime vs manga wars and various other irrelevant arguments.

Much like most people at this point, I'm tired of talking about it.

He says after talking about it.

[prince212]

Anyway, no, I'm not done with Toyotaro, I don't hate the Super manga, and man, I really don't care that much about this incident in spite of what a lot of people think, I just get wound up seeing unprofessionalism excused.
I'm not out to hunt him down, I'd just kinda like everyone to go, "Oh yeah, that wasn't okay, hope it doesn't happen again", and move on. Instead, it's kinda been used as an excuse to fuel anime vs manga wars and various other irrelevant arguments.
Much like most people at this point, I'm tired of talking about it.

I agree.
Hopefully that won’t happen again and the hunting poachers stop soon

[Nafno]

I repeat, your original position was "if a person that I consider X does something par for the course of an X person and I consider that as a something that underlines my previous opinion, I am being unreasonable". That is false. It has nothing to do with Toyotaro's creativity or lack of it, it is simply a logical mistake.

Your claim that the tracing underlines your point obviously suggests that it's par for the course for an "X person".

No, my claim that "tracing underlines my opinion" suggests that it underlines my opinion, JUST THAT. The rest is just things that you are constantly inventing just to avoid admitting that you are wrong. This reminds me of that Jordan Peterson interview in which the journalist keeps repeating "so you're saying" instead of focusing on what the person is really saying. And I was not trying to establish a connection, there is a connection, but not the connection you are constantly bringing up.

Let's go for a final example, not using any Toyotaro reference.

A. John thinks that James is a bad student (The reasons behind his opinion can be totally reasonable or totally unreasonable, that is not important).
B. James fails an exam.
B underlines A.

"B underlines John's opinion about James" means, (buckle up boys, you are in for a ride) "B underlines John's opinion about James". Just that.

Even if I think that John is wrong, that fact that his opinion is underlined by James failing an exam is undeniable. Saying the opposite is a logical fallacy, word that you seem to love using and comitting and the same time.

Now let's make a list of things that "B underlines John's opinion about James" does not mean.

- It does not mean that John is right to begin with.
- It does not mean that John's arguments to back up his opinion are correct (they are neither known nor relevant).
- It does not mean that James is a bad student per se.
- It does not mean that James is going to fail every exam.
- It does not mean that Earth is flat.
- It does not mean that James is a Trump supporter.
- It does not mean that James is a belly dancer.
- It does not mean every single other idea that you may come up with so as to avoid admitting that your original premise was wrong.

I really hope this clear things up once and for all, and you stop both inventing what other people are saying and calling them unreasonable for being the opposite.