Toyotarou tracing thread

[Marlowe89]

No, my claim that "tracing underlines my opinion" suggests that it underlines my opinion, JUST THAT.

It also means how I previously described it by its own definition. What I find frankly unbelievable about our whole back-and-forth is that you're repeatedly regressing your position to the point that you can't actually clarify exactly what you mean by "underlining" for the notion that you're trying to put forth -- by the way, to contend that something is "underlining" your position (i.e. Toyotaro is uncreative) you would have to argue that it's emphasizing it in some way, since those two words are synonyms in this particular usage of the term. It's astounding to me that you can't see how you're trying to establish a connection between the two by your own words. Even your own example implicitly suggests a connection, otherwise you wouldn't claim that B underlines A at all.

Again, guess what? That's what I've been arguing against the whole time. I don't think the act of tracing does anything to emphasize the viewpoint that he lacks creativity because I don't think the two are necessarily connected at all, so of course I'm going to find it unreasonable. You might disagree, but don't pretend that I'm trying to twist anyone's logic when I've blatantly operated from your premise from the very beginning. This was always one singular debate.

I don't know if maybe there's a native language barrier between us, and if that's the case, that's certainly not anyone's fault. This is getting tiresome at this point, honestly. We're obviously talking past each other. If you agree that neither of us are getting through, it's probably time to just drop it and move on to other discussions.

[Fionordequester]

For anyone worried that this incident will forever haunt Toyotaro's legacy...don't be. If there's one thing the Channel Awesome scandal has taught me, it's that the Internet has the attention span of a goldfish. They will very quickly, and all too easily, get over anything their favorite celebrities do, no matter how badly said celebrities deserve the backlash.

For those not aware of what I'm talking about, I'm speaking of the way Doug and Rob allowed their CEO, Mike Michaud, to violate the rights of Channel Awesome's employees in unspeakable ways. Those abuses included (but were not limited to)...

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1) Covering up for a proven sexual predator (and attempted rapist) named JewWario; keeping his multiple attempted rapes a secret not just from his co-workers, but from his own family.

2) Profitting off of JewWario's suicide with a montage, while forbidding his best friend from doing the same.

3) The firing of a tirelessly loyal worker, who needed to take one day off to go into surgery. Said firing now forbids her from putting her talents to use in other productions, for multiple years on end. This was due to the terms of her contract.

4) The IndieGogo 90k scam
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Doug and Rob weren't DIRECTLY responsible for any of this (as far as we know)...but they still own a share in the Channel Awesome corporation, and have an executive vote on all business decisions made. And while Mike Michaud does have ownership of the Nostalgia Critic character (due to ineptitude on Doug's part), Doug's still his Golden Goose. There's not much Mike could've done to Doug without harming himself as well. Hence, the two still share the blme.

Anyway, the Internet was outraged...for about a month. The Youtube comments were strongly negative at first...but then I watched in horror as there started being fewer and fewer of them. Until finally, there's barely any mention of them at all. The only mention that ARE there are folks actually relieved that "phew, FINALLY there's no more of those stupid SJW's ruining the comments section!" (or some variation of that).

And now, Nostalgia Critic's still chugging along. He's pumping out videos, he's having a blast doing the vlogs with his brother, his comments section is now FLOODED with people talking about how awesome, and talented, and funny him and Channel Awesome are, and the Youtube channel still has over 1 million subscribers. Channel Awesome as a whole took a lot of damage, but Nostalgia Critic is still very much alive and well.

...So this thing with Toyotaro? It'll pass. Some dudes are gonna get outraged for a bit, but it's ultimately not going to do a blasted thing to him. He'll just be chugging along...no matter how much he may, or may not, deserve to (I'm not saying he doesn't).

Tis the way it is, with celebrity culture ...

[VegettoEX]

While the allegations are indeed awful, what you cite here about "Channel Awesome" really has no relevance whatsoever to Toyotaro's tracing allegations, other than being ostensibly covered under the (extremely, much) larger banner of "professionalism".

These things certainly need to be talked about and repeated and highlighted, but I really don't see any connection here at all beyond the "people forget" summation... and to that point, I unfortunately think "fans" are more apt to forget heinous interpersonal situations than they are raw "artistic" ones such as this.

[Fionordequester]

While the allegations are indeed awful, what you cite here about "Channel Awesome" really has no relevance whatsoever to Toyotaro's tracing allegations, other than being ostensibly covered under the (extremely, much) larger banner of "professionalism".

These things certainly need to be talked about and repeated and highlighted, but I really don't see any connection here at all beyond the "people forget" summation... and to that point, I unfortunately think "fans" are more apt to forget heinous interpersonal situations than they are raw "artistic" ones such as this.

Well, the idea was that what Doug Walker allowed to happen (and could've stopped) was far worse than what Toyotaro did; and yet people still let him off the hook after just a short time. Therefore, people had no need to fear that Toyotaro would face any lasting repercussions.

To do that, I felt the need to go into heavy detail about just a few of the things Channel Awesome did (since not everyone's aware); that way the comparison would work. Did I go too far?

[Nafno]

It also means how I previously described it by its own definition. What I find frankly unbelievable about our whole back-and-forth is that you're repeatedly regressing your position to the point that you can't actually clarify exactly what you mean by "underlining" for the notion that you're trying to put forth -- by the way, to contend that something is "underlining" your position (i.e. Toyotaro is uncreative) you would have to argue that it's emphasizing it in some way, since those two words are synonyms in this particular usage of the term. It's astounding to me that you can't see how you're trying to establish a connection between the two by your own words. Even your own example implicitly suggests a connection, otherwise you wouldn't claim that B underlines A at all.

Wait a second. Now you wanted me to clarify the meaning of a word? Every new answer that you provide is even more baffling. As you said, it is a synonym of emphasizing. If I say "underlning" I mean "underlining", why would I have to give the definition? :S.

Again, guess what? That's what I've been arguing against the whole time. I don't think the act of tracing does anything to emphasize the viewpoint that he lacks creativity because I don't think the two are necessarily connected at all, so of course I'm going to find it unreasonable.

So you think copying someone else's work is not connected with a lack of creativity. Marvelous.

You might disagree, but don't pretend that I'm trying to twist anyone's logic when I've blatantly operated from your premise from the very beginning. This was always one singular debate.

I don't pretend that you are trying to twist anyone's logic, you have been doing constantly. I already pointed out every single time you attributed me things that I had never said, and it has not been once nor twice.

I don't know if maybe there's a native language barrier between us, and if that's the case, that's certainly not anyone's fault. This is getting tiresome at this point, honestly. We're obviously talking past each other. If you agree that neither of us are getting through, it's probably time to just drop it and move on to other discussions.

I agree, but it is a shame, because I think that creativity debate itself (in which, I remind you, I haven't taken part yet) could be interesting, but if we are lacking a common ground in some basic logical standards, then entering into a way more complex issue is a recipe for chaos XD.

See you.

[Marlowe89]

Wait a second. Now you wanted me to clarify the meaning of a word? Every new answer that you provide is even more baffling.

There's nothing even remotely baffling about it. Throughout this entire discussion you've claimed that I've attributed things to you that you've never said even though I haven't done anything more than clarify the specific implication behind "underlining" a point, so when you keep insisting that I'm twisting your logic or changing the debate, obviously it's only natural that I'd eventually ask you to clarify what you meant in the first place.

This isn't hard to understand. When you argue that "action B" underlines "standpoint A", you're arguing that it's emphasizing it, which means it's stressing it, which means it's putting weight behind it, which means it's supporting it. That's what I've been disputing all along. Obviously when it escalates to this point, I can't help but think there's either a communication barrier somewhere or you're just being deliberately obtuse about the whole thing.

So you think copying someone else's work is not connected with a lack of creativity. Marvelous.

Bingo. Maybe now that our terms are established, we can participate in a proper debate.

Swiping isn't actually an uncommon practice among artists, so no, I don't think it's inherently indicative of a lack of creativity. I specifically suggested this earlier in our discussion. The problem with Toyotaro isn't that he traced, it's that he did it in an official capacity for profit. It's totally unprofessional, and that's why I have a problem with it, but I wouldn't say it emphasizes the notion that he's an uncreative artist.

[VegettoEX]

You two are consistently talking in circles around each other, and it's apparent/transparent that you are not truly looking to "debate" (for lack of a better phrase here) in good faith with each other or the community as a whole.

This just doesn't look like an honest Kanzenshuu conversation, and your contributions here have ended. Enough is enough, please thank you and goodnight.

[Nafno]

I thought you were going to drop the debate, but it seems you aren't...

There's nothing even remotely baffling about it. Throughout this entire discussion you've claimed that I've attributed things to you that you've never said even though I haven't done anything more than clarify the specific implication behind "underlining" a point, so when you keep insisting that I'm twisting your logic or changing the debate, obviously it's only natural that I'd eventually ask you to clarify what you meant in the first place.

But I don't have to clarify what I mean because what I mean is the meaning of the word, as simple as that. You have constantly came up with different meanings for the word and then attributed me things that I've never said, and I pointed out every single one (maybe some slipped my mind...).

So yes, it is totally baffling that you ask me to define a word that has a proper meaning common for every English speaker.

This isn't hard to understand. When you argue that "action B" underlines "standpoint A", you're arguing that it's emphasizing it, which means it's stressing it, which means it's putting weight behind it, which means it's supporting it. That's what I've been disputing all along. Obviously when it escalates to this point, I can't help but think there's either a communication barrier somewhere or you're just being deliberately obtuse about the whole thing.

Wow, in order to reinforce your point you needed to go through 5 synonyms. Quite farfetched, don't you think?

I've been pretty clear and I've given you several examples. Yes, it underlines an opinion. No, it does not mean that that opinion is true (among half a dozen things it doesn't mean but you imply it does).

I find funny that you constantly insist on the language barrier. You were the one asking for definitions, not me.

Bingo. Maybe now that our terms are established, we can participate in a proper debate.

Swiping isn't actually an uncommon practice among artists, so no, I don't think it's inherently indicative of a lack of creativity. I specifically suggested this earlier in our discussion. The problem with Toyotaro isn't that he traced, it's that he did it in an official capacity for profit. It's totally unprofessional, and that's why I have a problem with it, but I wouldn't say it emphasizes the notion that he's an uncreative artist.

Creativity implie creating new things. If you are tracing, you are consequently not being creative. It doesn't matter how common it is among artists. And it is a common practice among artists who want to train their skills.

The fact that he earns money for it makes it unprofessional, yes. But, even if he did it for free, copying it entails a lack of creativity.

Like I have constantly repeated, that does not necesarily make Toyotaro uncreative by itself, that would be an oversymplification of a complex issue. But it certainly underlines it.

EDIT:

You two are consistently talking in circles around each other, and it's apparent/transparent that you are not truly looking to "debate" (for lack of a better phrase here) in good faith with each other or the community as a whole.

This just doesn't look like an honest Kanzenshuu conversation, and your contributions here have ended. Enough is enough, please thank you and goodnight.

Sorry, I've just seen this after my message was already posted.

I won't bother you about this issue anymore .

[Marlowe89]

Sorry, I've just seen this after my message was already posted.

That was four days ago.

Let's take it to PM if you want to continue this (very pointless) debate. Out of respect for VegettoEX's wishes, and also because I feel like your counterpoints here were already fully addressed by myself earlier in this thread, I'd rather not engage the topic anymore.

Moving on:

It's noteworthy that Toyotaro still hasn't addressed the tracing allegations. I'm curious as to what people make of that, and whether they felt a statement on his part was necessary to begin with. I feel like there's definitely still a gray area as far as the specific consequences and ethics of this whole debacle are concerned.

[Nafno]

Sorry, I've just seen this after my message was already posted.

That was four days ago.

Yep, and I hadn't visited the forum during that time. When I entered, I clicked the notifications, which directly brought me to your previous message, so I answered it without scrolling down.

Man, don't doubt me even about this XD.