Ultimate Gohan or SSJ Gohan (RoF)?

[supercat]

What people seem to be forgetting is that Gohan (and other Z-fighters) doesn't go about his daily agenda all powered up and ready for battle. When Trunks encountered him, he was likely suppressed to pretty much nothing. If Trunks made his comment after seeing Gohan in battle, it would have made more sense; however, to base things on an ambiguous remark about someone who was likely working at the time does little to support the argument that Gohan was weaker than his Buu saga self.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You're going to have to prove that Trunks' assessment is incorrect within the context of the story. Because there's nothing stating that's he couldn't make an accurate statement other than your conjecture.
There's no ambiguity about the statement. Gohan at that point does not have the power he did against Cell.

[supercat]

Until it's proven what Trunks meant was a direct comparison between the two versions of Gohan at full power, I have no reason to believe it. Trunks could have also been referring to the battle-ready mentality Gohan exhibited during his battle against Cell. That whole remark also doesn't with how Base Gohan was basically stated to be stronger than Piccolo; someone who was one, not stated to have grown any weaker, and two, should at the very least be marginally stronger than he was during the Cell Games.

The Buu saga is likely nothing in terms of power at this point, so I'm not sure why people keep trying to debate that it's still relevant.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No idea what you're babbling about. The text is there, plain as day. Gohan at the beginning of the Future Trunks arc doesn't have the power he had against Cell.

It means that one version of Gohan has more power than the other Gohan. You're making up conditionals that the statement already logically fulfills. It isn't hard to understand. Your willingness to believe it isn't going to change reality.

[supercat]

I'm not the one going on about an ambiguous line, treating as it's some be all and end all conclusion.

My willingness to believe it? I don't believe it at all; so it has absolutely nothing to do with how much I want to or don't want to believe it. There's really nothing anyone can say to change my opinion on this matter so there's no sense in this debate even continuing.

[Marlowe89]

What people seem to be forgetting is that Gohan (and other Z-fighters) doesn't go about his daily agenda all powered up and ready for battle. When Trunks encountered him, he was likely suppressed to pretty much nothing. If Trunks made his comment after seeing Gohan in battle, it would have made more sense; however, to base things on an ambiguous remark about someone who was likely working at the time does little to support the argument that Gohan was weaker than his Buu saga self.

Your interpretation seems a bit disingenuous to me. There's no reason for that line to even exist if its narrative purpose wasn't expressly meant to show that Gohan had become much weaker since Trunks last saw him; actually, it partially emphasizes the point of the whole episode. Combined with Piccolo later stating that he hadn't achieved his "original strength" even as a Super Saiyan 2, the intention is all too obvious -- Gohan simply wasn't nearly up to snuff compared to his highlight moments in the original manga until his training in the US arc. At best, he might have finally reached/surpassed his Cell arc level when he fought Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2.

We have to be able to look at these lines from an authorial standpoint, observe the context behind them and drop our biases for what we personally want Super's power scale to look like. The writers (including Toriyama) most likely don't conceive those prior arcs to be as irrelevant as you think they are. Restricting all strength debates exclusively to in-universe reasoning just trivializes the point of the show's comparisons to begin with.

[supercat]

What people seem to be forgetting is that Gohan (and other Z-fighters) doesn't go about his daily agenda all powered up and ready for battle. When Trunks encountered him, he was likely suppressed to pretty much nothing. If Trunks made his comment after seeing Gohan in battle, it would have made more sense; however, to base things on an ambiguous remark about someone who was likely working at the time does little to support the argument that Gohan was weaker than his Buu saga self.

Your interpretation seems a bit disingenuous to me. There's no reason for that line to even exist if its narrative purpose wasn't expressly meant to show that Gohan had become much weaker since Trunks last saw him; actually, it partially emphasizes the point of the whole episode. Combined with Piccolo later stating that he hadn't achieved his "original strength" even as a Super Saiyan 2, the intention is all too obvious -- Gohan simply wasn't nearly up to snuff compared to his highlight moments in the original manga until his training in the US arc. At best, he might have finally reached/surpassed his Cell arc level when he fought Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2.

We have to be able to look at these lines from an authorial standpoint, observe the context behind them and drop our biases for what we personally want Super's power scale to look like. The writers (including Toriyama) most likely don't conceive those prior arcs to be as irrelevant as you think they are. Restricting all strength debates exclusively to in-universe reasoning just trivializes the point of the show's comparisons to begin with.

You know it's funny. When I said the whole reasoning behind Tagaoma singling out Base Gohan as the strongest on his team was likely there to indicate Base Gohan > Piccolo, people began formulating all sorts of different excuses to try and find an alternate meaning behind it. The main difference between what Tagoma said about Gohan and what Trunks said about Gohan is the fact that one was in a battle setting and the other was casual. With Base Gohan being stronger than a Piccolo, who is likely a bit stronger than he was during the Cell Games, and a 50-100x multiplier means SSJ / SSJ2 Gohan are at least 50% of Ultimate Gohan-tier since. As mentioned in the initial post, even if Piccolo was referring to Ultimate Gohan's actual strength, there is so much room for SSJ Gohan (RoF) to be far above his Buu saga self. Which honestly isn't all that farfetched, seeing how seemingly weak Buu is in comparison to many of the fighters from the ToP.

Also, just because something may seem obvious to you doesn't necessarily mean it's a fact. A speculation is a speculation and is not a fact until indisputably proven so.

Even if Trunks was talking about Gohan's strength, the whole Tagoma thing contradicts it so I see no reason to personally adhere to it. I honestly have no interest in further going in circles on this as I know with certainty I will not agree with any of your points pertaining to this discussion.

[Marlowe89]

When I said the whole reasoning behind Tagaoma singling out Base Gohan as the strongest on his team was likely there to indicate Base Gohan > Piccolo, people began formulating all sorts of different excuses to try and find an alternate meaning behind it.

Well, Tagoma never singled out "base" Gohan. In fact, he never said anything about a lower state of power. Much like Trunks' assessment, you're adding in an alternative condition that was never specified in the dialogue itself --Tagoma simply indicated that Gohan was the strongest fighter there, which could have easily been based on all sorts of intel including the fact that he had access to a stronger transformation. The meaning behind that one's pretty simple.

There's not really any major difference between those two situations, and if anything, Trunks' statement is actually more specific because he's explicitly referring to Gohan's previous strength. Whether it's in a casual setting doesn't have anything to do with the intention behind the dialogue.

Which honestly isn't all that farfetched, seeing how seemingly weak Buu is in comparison to many of the fighters from the ToP.

That would make it doubly far-fetched because Buu was demonstrably much stronger than most of the fighters on Universe 9's team, if not all of them barring Giant Bergamo.

Also, just because something may seem obvious to you doesn't necessarily mean it's a fact. A speculation is a speculation and is not a fact until indisputably proven so.

We kinda already went over this in the other thread, but I'll reclarify my stance here. If the "alternative" explanations seem disingenuous to the point that they're either ignoring intent and context or arguing that the phrasing of a particular statement doesn't mean what it means, I'd say it's pretty indisputable, honestly. Not much room for debate there, especially if it's something that's indicated multiple times in the same show.

[PFM18]

What people seem to be forgetting is that Gohan (and other Z-fighters) doesn't go about his daily agenda all powered up and ready for battle. When Trunks encountered him, he was likely suppressed to pretty much nothing. If Trunks made his comment after seeing Gohan in battle, it would have made more sense; however, to base things on an ambiguous remark about someone who was likely working at the time does little to support the argument that Gohan was weaker than his Buu saga self.

Your interpretation seems a bit disingenuous to me. There's no reason for that line to even exist if its narrative purpose wasn't expressly meant to show that Gohan had become much weaker since Trunks last saw him; actually, it partially emphasizes the point of the whole episode. Combined with Piccolo later stating that he hadn't achieved his "original strength" even as a Super Saiyan 2, the intention is all too obvious -- Gohan simply wasn't nearly up to snuff compared to his highlight moments in the original manga until his training in the US arc. At best, he might have finally reached/surpassed his Cell arc level when he fought Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2.

We have to be able to look at these lines from an authorial standpoint, observe the context behind them and drop our biases for what we personally want Super's power scale to look like. The writers (including Toriyama) most likely don't conceive those prior arcs to be as irrelevant as you think they are. Restricting all strength debates exclusively to in-universe reasoning just trivializes the point of the show's comparisons to begin with.

That line exists to establish Trunks's realization of the shift in Gohan's lifestyle. Gohan is not constantly "brimming with power" since he spends most of his time changing diapers and doing academic stuff. From an authorial perspective, they wanted to have that moment where Trunks realizes that he is no longer a warrior. It doesn't exist specifically to establish where Gohan's strength lies. Otherwise, they were just being stupid and didn't consider what had been established prior and what was shown directly after.

That doesn't necessarily mean that he is weaker than himself when he was a mere child. For us to actually believe that he has reverted below his Cell Games self, it would contradict several other things and it just wouldn't make any sense.

We kinda already went over this in the other thread, but I'll reclarify my stance here. If the "alternative" explanations seem disingenuous to the point that they're either ignoring intent and context or arguing that the phrasing of a particular statement doesn't mean what it means, I'd say it's pretty indisputable, honestly. Not much room for debate there, especially if it's something that's indicated multiple times in the same show.

See if anything is disingenuous it is this comment. If something seems disingenuous to you then that is only your interpretation of the situation and does not invalidate another person's viewpoint. You don't know what the intent of the scene is so you can't just claim that other people are ignoring the intent or the context. You cannot know for certain unless you ask whoever wrote the scene. If anything is "indicated multiple times in the same show" it is the opposite of what you seem to think Trunks said to Gohan.

[supercat]

When I said the whole reasoning behind Tagaoma singling out Base Gohan as the strongest on his team was likely there to indicate Base Gohan > Piccolo, people began formulating all sorts of different excuses to try and find an alternate meaning behind it.

Well, Tagoma never singled out "base" Gohan. In fact, he never said anything about a lower state of power. Much like Trunks' assessment, you're adding in an alternative condition that was never specified in the dialogue itself --Tagoma simply indicated that Gohan was the strongest fighter there, which could have easily been based on all sorts of intel including the fact that he had access to a stronger transformation. The meaning behind that one's pretty simple.

There's not really any major difference between those two situations, and if anything, Trunks' statement is actually more specific because he's explicitly referring to Gohan's previous strength. Whether it's in a casual setting doesn't have anything to do with the intention behind the dialogue.

Which honestly isn't all that farfetched, seeing how seemingly weak Buu is in comparison to many of the fighters from the ToP.

That would make it doubly far-fetched because Buu was demonstrably much stronger than most of the fighters on Universe 9's team, if not all of them barring Giant Bergamo.

Also, just because something may seem obvious to you doesn't necessarily mean it's a fact. A speculation is a speculation and is not a fact until indisputably proven so.

We kinda already went over this in the other thread, but I'll reclarify my stance here. If the "alternative" explanations seem disingenuous to the point that they're either ignoring intent and context or arguing that the phrasing of a particular statement doesn't mean what it means, I'd say it's pretty indisputable, honestly. Not much room for debate there, especially if it's something that's indicated multiple times in the same show.

Unless you have evidence directly stating that Tagoma knew of Gohan's transformations, or were in any shape or form referring to it, it's a speculation. So I'm adding an alternative condition to Tagoma's statement, even though you're the one suggesting that Tagoma meant something else? Not sure how "me adding an alternative condition" is even applicable here.

Universe 9 was also the first to go and among the weaker universes. Buu's superiority over them isn't much when you consider just how powerful the others were.

You can think my points are disingenuous all you want; but doing so doesn't change the fact that said points are taking direct statements and multipliers into consideration. Also, you thinking something is disingenuous doesn't make someone else's points invalid. Saying that there's not much room for debate in a conversation with potentially many subjective opinions is not the proper way to debate.

That line exists to establish Trunks's realization of the shift in Gohan's lifestyle. Gohan is not constantly "brimming with power" since he spends most of his time changing diapers and doing academic stuff. From an authorial perspective, they wanted to have that moment where Trunks realizes that he is no longer a warrior. It doesn't exist specifically to establish where Gohan's strength lies. Otherwise, they were just being stupid and didn't consider what had been established prior and what was shown directly after.

That doesn't necessarily mean that he is weaker than himself when he was a mere child. For us to actually believe that he has reverted below his Cell Games self, it would contradict several other things and it just wouldn't make any sense.

We kinda already went over this in the other thread, but I'll reclarify my stance here. If the "alternative" explanations seem disingenuous to the point that they're either ignoring intent and context or arguing that the phrasing of a particular statement doesn't mean what it means, I'd say it's pretty indisputable, honestly. Not much room for debate there, especially if it's something that's indicated multiple times in the same show.

See if anything is disingenuous it is this comment. If something seems disingenuous to you then that is only your interpretation of the situation and does not invalidate another person's viewpoint. You don't know what the intent of the scene is so you can't just claim that other people are ignoring the intent or the context. You cannot know for certain unless you ask whoever wrote the scene. If anything is "indicated multiple times in the same show" it is the opposite of what you seem to think Trunks said to Gohan.

This basically sums it up and I honestly couldn't agree more. It's very unlikely Trunks' comment was referring to Gohan's power as there are other factors that basically contradict Gohan regressing that much.

[Diccolo-420]

Lol OP is overthinking it. The real answer is that power scaling is irrelevant and Toei changes power levels when it's convenient to the plot. That's it. It's the only way to explain how it's all over the place is super.

[Marlowe89]

Unless you have evidence directly stating that Tagoma knew of Gohan's transformations, or were in any shape or form referring to it, it's a speculation. So I'm adding an alternative condition to Tagoma's statement, even though you're the one suggesting that Tagoma meant something else?

I'm not suggesting anything other than what Tagoma said, and the burden of proof isn't on me to confirm that he wasn't singling out his base state; it's on you to prove that he was, since you're using it as a basis for your argument. Unfortunately for your point, there's nothing in the show that would actually indicate such a thing, and Tagoma never specified that he was singling out a lower form.

Universe 9 was also the first to go and among the weaker universes. Buu's superiority over them isn't much when you consider just how powerful the others were.

Them being the first to go was established to be a result of their rash decision to home in on Universe 7, not necessarily because they were weaker than every other universe. Even then, I brought up Universe 9 specifically because of their performance against other characters.

You can think my points are disingenuous all you want; but doing so doesn't change the fact that said points are taking direct statements and multipliers into consideration.

Your points are disingenuous because they're ignoring direct statements and pretending that they imply anything other than what they actually imply, not because you're truly taking them into consideration. Your implication that Trunks would only be talking about Gohan in a massively suppressed state makes no sense and is distinctly at odds with the dialogue; the writers wouldn't insert that statement at all were that the case.

That line exists to establish Trunks's realization of the shift in Gohan's lifestyle. Gohan is not constantly "brimming with power" since he spends most of his time changing diapers and doing academic stuff. From an authorial perspective, they wanted to have that moment where Trunks realizes that he is no longer a warrior. It doesn't exist specifically to establish where Gohan's strength lies.

The two go hand-in-hand. If Trunks is saying that he doesn't sense the same brimming power that Gohan possessed during the Cell Games, he's obviously talking about where Gohan's strength lies. This is further emphasized by Gohan's change in lifestyle, which was narratively the point of the episode. Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

What other things would it contradict, exactly?

[supercat]

Unless you have evidence directly stating that Tagoma knew of Gohan's transformations, or were in any shape or form referring to it, it's a speculation. So I'm adding an alternative condition to Tagoma's statement, even though you're the one suggesting that Tagoma meant something else?

I'm not suggesting anything other than what Tagoma said, and the burden of proof isn't on me to confirm that he wasn't singling out his base state; it's on you to prove that he was, since you're using it as a basis for your argument. Unfortunately for your point, there's nothing in the show that would actually indicate such a thing, and Tagoma never specified that he was singling out a lower form.

Universe 9 was also the first to go and among the weaker universes. Buu's superiority over them isn't much when you consider just how powerful the others were.

Them being the first to go was established to be a result of their rash decision to home in on Universe 7, not necessarily because they were weaker than every other universe. Even then, I brought up Universe 9 specifically because of their performance against other characters.

You can think my points are disingenuous all you want; but doing so doesn't change the fact that said points are taking direct statements and multipliers into consideration.

Your points are disingenuous because they're ignoring direct statements and pretending that they imply anything other than what they actually imply, not because you're truly taking them into consideration. Your implication that Trunks would only be talking about Gohan in a massively suppressed state makes no sense and is distinctly at odds with the dialogue; the writers wouldn't insert that statement at all were that the case.

That line exists to establish Trunks's realization of the shift in Gohan's lifestyle. Gohan is not constantly "brimming with power" since he spends most of his time changing diapers and doing academic stuff. From an authorial perspective, they wanted to have that moment where Trunks realizes that he is no longer a warrior. It doesn't exist specifically to establish where Gohan's strength lies.

The two go hand-in-hand. If Trunks is saying that he doesn't sense the same brimming power that Gohan possessed during the Cell Games, he's obviously talking about where Gohan's strength lies. This is further emphasized by Gohan's change in lifestyle, which was narratively the point of the episode. Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

What other things would it contradict, exactly?

I just think your argument is a kind of funny because you seem quite sure that Trunks was referring to Gohan's full power, even though Gohan was very likely suppressed. The only version of Gohan Tagoma saw was Base Gohan; therefore, it's quite unlikely Tagoma even knew Gohan had any transformations. This is further supported by how shocked Frieza was when he saw Gohan transforming. The guy who knows the Saiyans better than anyone else on his team doesn't know about Gohan's transformation, yet the random grunt who likely knows nothing of Gohan nor Goku does. I personally don't think that makes sense. There's also Gotenks showing up as Super Saiyan after sensing Tagoma. Now why would someone as cocky as Gotenks, who refused to turn Super Saiyan for the original Majin Buu even bother transforming for Tagoma unless he felt said opponent warranted such power?

About universe 9, Basil still gave Buu a decent fight. Had it not been for Buu's regeneration, who knows how that battle would have turned out. Buu's just a careless tool who relies on regeneration moreso than anything else so it's honestly pretty difficult to gauge how well he would fare in an actual battle; and considering how the vast majority of his Buu saga power came from absorbing others, I guess it's not surprising. There's also no indication that Lavender and Bergamo are weaker than Basil. Saying that they are without actual evidence would be nothing more than a mere speculation in my opinion.

How can you say with certainty what those statements imply? I'm not sure how and why you could pick and choose what is true and what isn't; especially when it's concerning a topic that is quite likely open to subjective opinions. I'm also quite surprised you keep calling my points disingenuous over and over, when again, this is a very subjective discussion. This is just one more reason why I didn't want to continue this debate with you. I know for certainty I will never agree with any of the points that you had brought up so wouldn't it be best if we agree to disagree? If someone brings up a point that sounds compelling enough, I'd be more than happy to debate, but I'm just not convinced by what you had to say; thus I feel it's best we agree to disagree.

[Marlowe89]

you seem quite sure that Trunks was referring to Gohan's full power, even though Gohan was very likely suppressed.

I'm quite sure that Trunks was suggesting Gohan to be weaker than he was in the Cell Games because that's exactly what that statement directly conveys. It isn't more complicated than that. We don't need all these extra conditions to dillute the relevance of the dialogue.

The only version of Gohan Tagoma saw was Base Gohan; therefore, it's quite unlikely Tagoma even knew Gohan had any transformations.

I was just using that as an example. Tagoma doesn't acually need to know that Gohan possesses any transformations to deduce that he's stronger than Piccolo based on prior intel, or even just the fact that he's Goku's son now fully grown. This is the same character that frequently wore a scouter, so we don't even know if he's capable of sensing battle power without one (otherwise he wouldn't typically use one). He also seemed surprised at how weak Gohan was.

There's also Gotenks showing up as Super Saiyan after sensing Tagoma. Now why would someone as cocky as Gotenks, who refused to turn Super Saiyan for the original Majin Buu even bother transforming for Tagoma unless he felt said opponent warranted such power?

You said it yourself -- Gotenks is cocky and likes to show off. Tagoma was literally nothing more than one-shot material for Super Saiyan Gotenks because... well, again, that's exactly what happened in the show. Your point here would have substance if the two fought on even grounds, but they never did.

About universe 9, Basil still gave Buu a decent fight. Had it not been for Buu's regeneration, who knows how that battle would have turned out. Buu's just a careless tool who relies on regeneration moreso than anything else so it's honestly pretty difficult to gauge how well he would fare in an actual battle; and considering how the vast majority of his Buu saga power came from absorbing others, I guess it's not surprising. There's also no indication that Lavender and Bergamo are weaker than Basil. Saying that they are without actual evidence would be nothing more than a mere speculation in my opinion.

Buu was toying with Basil throughout the entire match and was clearly above him in strength even when the latter's power was augmented by drugs. I also never claimed that Bergamo and Lavender were weaker than Basil, but that doesn't mean they can't be comparable in their base states; Basil is certainly stronger than the rest of Universe 9's team either way.

I know for certainty I will never agree with any of the points that you had brought up so wouldn't it be best if we agree to disagree? If someone brings up a point that sounds compelling enough, I'd be more than happy to debate, but I'm just not convinced by what you had to say; thus I feel it's best we agree to disagree.

Considering your previous posts on topics like these, I honestly don't see you agreeing with anyone's points that could conflict with your notion of the show's overall power scaling, no matter how strongly supported they might be. You're correct that agreeing to disagree might be the best option at this point.

[PFM18]

The two go hand-in-hand. If Trunks is saying that he doesn't sense the same brimming power that Gohan possessed during the Cell Games, he's obviously talking about where Gohan's strength lies. This is further emphasized by Gohan's change in lifestyle, which was narratively the point of the episode. Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

See I think the problem with this mentality is that you are looking at these comments in a vacuum and not looking at this within the scope of the entire series. Narratively, obviously this exists to show Trunks realizing the shift in priorities for Gohan from fighting to other things. Now, in terms of this being a power comparison if we take it for face value then it would seem possible that this is strictly a reference to power and Trunks is pointing out the difference between Gohan's current power and his Cell Games power. However, because of the situation, we need to look a little bit deeper. Gohan being weaker than his Cell Games self is contradicted by:

1. The ROF arc establishing that Base Gohan>Piccolo. For Gohan's base to be stronger than Piccolo, his SSJ power would be 50x stronger and clearly above his Cell Games self.
2. Almost Immediately afterwards following the events of the Zamasu Arc, Gohan and Goku are in a sparring match and even though it is more of a casual sparring match and Goku admitted to holding back, it is atleast heavily implied that SSJ Gohan>Base Goku since Goku found it necessary to use SSJ.
3. Prior to Gohan's serious training with Piccolo, he was doing very well against Lavender. Obviously, this would not be possible if he were weaker than his Cell Games self and there isn't much reason to think Gohan had gained a huge amount of power between his interaction with Trunks and this moment.

Gohan cannot simultaneously be weaker than his Cell Games self and not contradict these events. So considering this within the context of the series, the best we can determine is that the scene shows that Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan>Base Gohan. Now, this would make sense and would fit fairly well with the rest of the events. Obviously, you would expect Cell Games Gohan with a 100x boost to be stronger than a base iteration of himself. But based on this deduction we can ultimately conclude that Gohan's maximum output is much higher than it was during the Cell Games.(If he uses SSJ or SSJ2)

Your points are disingenuous because they're ignoring direct statements and pretending that they imply anything other than what they actually imply, not because you're truly taking them into consideration. Your implication that Trunks would only be talking about Gohan in a massively suppressed state makes no sense and is distinctly at odds with the dialogue; the writers wouldn't insert that statement at all were that the case.

See the bolded sentence is puzzling to me. You automatically assume that you know what is "actually implied" and an opposing viewpoint does not. Other people could simply see it another way. I was under the impression that an episode and a half were dedicated to establishing that SSJ Goku post-ritual>Base Goku. I thought this was obvious and find that several people think differently and that is perfectly fine. I am not going to accuse them of being disingenuous because their viewpoint contradicts what I thought was obviously being shown. These things are ultimately subjective and I think you need to realize that.

[Hugo Boss]

Even if “Base Gohan > Piccolo” would be correct, we would have a peculiar situation in which Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo only in a occasion that he is the most rusty. In Champa Arc, they were almost on even terms while training, yet Piccolo recovered his breath quickier. In Trunks Arc, their participation was nearly zero. And in Survival Arc, even after Gohan regained his fighting spirit, he was barely able to compete on equal terms with Piccolo against the Namekian duo, and that’s when Piccolo doesn’t use his tricks.

It’s interesting that Gohan notes Tagoma is at least as strong as his fresh condition, which strongly suggests that Tagoma can be stronger than Base Gohan. Despite knowing that, Piccolo volunteered to take Tagoma himself. So, we either assume Piccolo is stupid or he guesssed he could have a chance after feeling Tagoma’s energy, without having previous knowledge of Tagoma’s body toughness.

[Marlowe89]

See I think the problem with this mentality is that you are looking at these comments in a vacuum and not looking at this within the scope of the entire series.

I firmly disagree. There's no "mentality" or crazy agenda behind arguing for what a direct statement entails, and the broader scope of the series doesn't suddenly change its authorial purpose. Even if it could, there's nothing anywhere in your three counterpoints that would automatically contradict the idea of Future Trunks arc Gohan being weaker than Cell arc Gohan as he was stated (and indeed, intended) to be.

See the bolded sentence is puzzling to me. You automatically assume that you know what is "actually implied" and an opposing viewpoint does not.

There are two opposing viewpoints in this thread, both of which stray from a simple face-value interpretation and fail to logically reconcile Trunks' statement with the narrative. If you're having trouble with this, I'll draw an analogy to fully illustrate my point:

Janice receives her test results for a school project. She notes that her final grade was considerably lower than her previous school project, and is visibly disappointed by it. Two observers (we'll call them Person A and Person B) dispute the most basic, face-value interpretation of this situation, each offering a different argument.

Person A maintains that Janice could have performed to reach a grade significantly higher than her previous project if she really wanted to.

Person B maintains that Janice is simply disappointed in her final score, and that this has no bearing or relevance to her previous project.

Both of these arguments are terribly flawed.

Person A's position is flawed because it adds the assumption, or condition, that Janice didn't want to receive a grade that was higher than her previous project's grade. This is a logical mistake becase it ignores her disappointment at the result, which implicitly suggests otherwise. Likewise, supercat's very similar position is flawed for the same reason -- he maintains that Trunks is merely referring to Gohan's massively suppressed base state, but ignores the character's own surprise as well as Trunks feeling the need to internally make note of Gohan feeling weaker to begin with.

Person B's position is flawed because it merely focuses on Janice's feeling of disappointment rather than all the reasons that would give rise to that disappointment, and ignores the fact that Janice's comparison between her current project and previous project actively contributes to her feeling of disappointment. Likewise, PFM18 maintains that the point was to illustrate Trunks noticing Gohan's change in lifestyle, which is true, but ignores the reasons that would influence him to reach that conclusion, which was initially because he observed that Gohan felt weaker than he was during the Cell Games.

The analogy I described obviously isn't 100% identical to the situation with Gohan and Trunks (no analogy is; that's what makes them analogies) but it totally suffices to show why anything other than a face-value interpretation is intrinsically at odds with the dialogue in the episode. Alternative interpretations here fail to provide a scenario that isn't immediately nonsensical or contradictory to the situation surrounding Trunks' assessment, so they're simply not viable from the jump.

To reiterate, there are tons of statements both within and outside of Super that are feasibly open to multiple viable interpretations. I definitely wouldn't say this is one of them.

[PFM18]

I firmly disagree. There's no "mentality" or crazy agenda behind arguing for what a direct statement entails, and the broader scope of the series doesn't suddenly change its authorial purpose. Even if it could, there's nothing anywhere in your three counterpoints that would automatically contradict the idea of Future Trunks arc Gohan being weaker than Cell arc Gohan as he was stated (and indeed, intended) to be.

I wasn't saying that there was some kind of "crazy agenda" or anything of the like. The broader scope of the series does not change its authorial purpose but it does allow you to see the authorial purpose more clearly if you are looking at the statement within the grand scheme of things. Actually all three of my counterpoints contradict the idea of FT arc Gohan being weaker than the Cell Games. They simply cannot coincide with each other and make sense within the story.

Gohan's base cannot be stronger than Piccolo but still be weaker than Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan as a SSJ.
SSJ Gohan>Base Goku cannot be implied immediately after this arc for Gohan to be simultaneously weaker than his Cell Games iteration.
Gohan cannot defeat Lavender prior to his serious training while his FT arc iteration being weaker than his Cell Games iteration.

These things do not just disappear because you say so.

There are two opposing viewpoints in this thread, both of which stray from a simple face-value interpretation and fail to logically reconcile Trunks' statement with the narrative. If you're having trouble with this, I'll draw an analogy to fully illustrate my point:

See the problem with your viewpoint/argument, aside from the condescending undertone, is that it ignores contradicting statements and feats elsewhere in the series and it overstates how explicit this statement is. But while we are doing petty analogies:

Now this analogy may seem oddly specific but that is kinda because this is pretty "close to home" for me and easiest for me to come up with something.

Let's say that Jimmy is in a Statistics course on Probability.

On the first day of class, the professor says on his syllabus that there wouldn't be any programming on any of the exams and that they won't be asked to learn it. On the study guide for the first exam, Jimmy sees that the professor mentions that they must "show the coding that you used." Jimmy realizes that the word "coding" is closely associated with programming! A classmate tells Jimmy that because the syllabus said that there wouldn't be any programming on any of the exams, that he probably meant something else. Jimmy tells his classmate that it OBVIOUSLY means what it directly says.(programming goes hand in hand with Statistics) Jimmy decides he is going to study programming intensely before the exam. Then, he takes the exam only to find out that there was no programming or anything that required programming of any kind! Actually, the professor was referring to "coding" as being the "encoding" you do to define your variables. Jimmy failed his exam because he studied the wrong material.

Here, you are Jimmy. Because you only consider the words in a vacuum as though nothing else established before or after can influence the meaning of the statement.

Trunks was obviously surprised by Gohan's shift in priorities and how his lifestyle changed. In that particular moment, he had less power than the last time Trunks had seen him. That is what the statement is saying, to say anything about Gohan's current transformed state being weaker than his Cell Games self is pure speculation. The best we can do from this scene is deduce that Base Gohan<Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. In that moment, Trunks realized that Gohan was not wearing a fighting gi and he was clearly not even concerned with fighting or training at the time. Trunks is surprised by this, he also notices that it appears that Gohan's strength at that specific time, and at at that specific time he was in his base form.

Looking at this from an authorial perspective, it is clear the main focus is to show Trunks seeing Gohan in his current domain and how different that is from the last time he saw him. The main point is to show this interaction and show how things have changed irrespective of battle power or anything of the like. But as more of a secondary point, there is a reference to power possibly or even probably referring to the fact that Base Gohan<SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan. I think things look something like this:

SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan: 10
Base Gohan FT arc: 5
SSJ Gohan FT arc: 250
Ultimate Gohan Buu Arc: 600

[supercat]

you seem quite sure that Trunks was referring to Gohan's full power, even though Gohan was very likely suppressed.

I'm quite sure that Trunks was suggesting Gohan to be weaker than he was in the Cell Games because that's exactly what that statement directly conveys. It isn't more complicated than that. We don't need all these extra conditions to dillute the relevance of the dialogue.

The only version of Gohan Tagoma saw was Base Gohan; therefore, it's quite unlikely Tagoma even knew Gohan had any transformations.

I was just using that as an example. Tagoma doesn't acually need to know that Gohan possesses any transformations to deduce that he's stronger than Piccolo based on prior intel, or even just the fact that he's Goku's son now fully grown. This is the same character that frequently wore a scouter, so we don't even know if he's capable of sensing battle power without one (otherwise he wouldn't typically use one). He also seemed surprised at how weak Gohan was.

There's also Gotenks showing up as Super Saiyan after sensing Tagoma. Now why would someone as cocky as Gotenks, who refused to turn Super Saiyan for the original Majin Buu even bother transforming for Tagoma unless he felt said opponent warranted such power?

You said it yourself -- Gotenks is cocky and likes to show off. Tagoma was literally nothing more than one-shot material for Super Saiyan Gotenks because... well, again, that's exactly what happened in the show. Your point here would have substance if the two fought on even grounds, but they never did.

About universe 9, Basil still gave Buu a decent fight. Had it not been for Buu's regeneration, who knows how that battle would have turned out. Buu's just a careless tool who relies on regeneration moreso than anything else so it's honestly pretty difficult to gauge how well he would fare in an actual battle; and considering how the vast majority of his Buu saga power came from absorbing others, I guess it's not surprising. There's also no indication that Lavender and Bergamo are weaker than Basil. Saying that they are without actual evidence would be nothing more than a mere speculation in my opinion.

Buu was toying with Basil throughout the entire match and was clearly above him in strength even when the latter's power was augmented by drugs. I also never claimed that Bergamo and Lavender were weaker than Basil, but that doesn't mean they can't be comparable in their base states; Basil is certainly stronger than the rest of Universe 9's team either way.

I know for certainty I will never agree with any of the points that you had brought up so wouldn't it be best if we agree to disagree? If someone brings up a point that sounds compelling enough, I'd be more than happy to debate, but I'm just not convinced by what you had to say; thus I feel it's best we agree to disagree.

Considering your previous posts on topics like these, I honestly don't see you agreeing with anyone's points that could conflict with your notion of the show's overall power scaling, no matter how strongly supported they might be. You're correct that agreeing to disagree might be the best option at this point.

If we really don't need any additional conditions to convolute things, then Base Gohan > Piccolo thus making SSJ Gohan (RoF) really 50x stronger than a top Cell Games contender for sure right? Tagoma was never really surprised Gohan was weak. He was mocking and ridiculing him. I don't get why we're complicating this one, yet an alternative intent isn't possible within the context of Trunks' statement. That's not how these subjective discussions work unfortunately. They're open to interpretation, and until something is solidified as an actual fact, different opinions can form; and you disagreeing with my points do little to solidify the actual meaning.

Pre-RoSaT Gotenks refused to transform against the initial Majin Buu yet he decided to transform against Tagoma. Gotenks' cockiness would more likely show up as fighting in base since his overflowing confidence would lead him to believe he can win without full power. This is the same guy who didn't even want to go full power (SSJ3) against Super Buu until later. Tagoma was also caught off guard, so that hardly suggests Gotenks > Tagoma; otherwise we might as well say Sorbet > Goku.

Universe 9 was also implied to be weaker than the rest, so Buu > a handful of Universe 9 does little to show how powerful Buu is against the other universes. Bergamo is seemingly on par with Base Goku, who I will not go into on this discussion. Again, if the other side of the argument is compelling enough, I'd be more than happy to debate / discuss further. Quite frankly, I am not even a bit convinced by any of your points, despite this discussion going back and forth; which is exactly the reason why I felt it was best that we agree to disagree.

[Analytic]

Trunks was obviously surprised by Gohan's shift in priorities and how his lifestyle changed. In that particular moment, he had less power than the last time Trunks had seen him. That is what the statement is saying, to say anything about Gohan's current transformed state being weaker than his Cell Games self is pure speculation. The best we can do from this scene is deduce that Base Gohan<Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan. In that moment, Trunks realized that Gohan was not wearing a fighting gi and he was clearly not even concerned with fighting or training at the time. Trunks is surprised by this, he also notices that it appears that Gohan's strength at that specific time], and at at that specific time he was in his base form.

That doesn't make sense. Trunks would have no reason to compare Gohan's base form to his previous Super Saiyan 2 form. If Trunks travelled back in time to the Boo arc, would he think how Goku got weaker because his base form wasn't as strong as his Super Saiyan form at the Cell Games?