Was Goku vs Jiren Good?

[Mister_Popo]

1. At the end of the day, we know everybody is going to fine but as far as the characters within the show are concerned, everyone's life hangs in the balance of this fight.

2. That is fair. I guess we could change that to "The stakes are as high or higher than any other fight in the franchise"



He didn't want to kill Goku's friends he was just trying to prove a point that everyone he loves can be taken away from him in an instant. There was a brigade of Angels who are all stronger than Jiren and can create impenetrable barriers so nobody was actually in any real danger.

Then why wouldn't Goku have known that as well? That would make it a pointless action / scene. It was a desperate, maybe even irrational but not so very sweet attempt from Jiren to take away Gokus deeper motivation to rely on his instincts: the trust and support of his comrads.
The angels could very well have saved everybody but i don't think Goku wanted to take any chances, he followed his instinct to give them protection.

Yeah Goku wasnt going to take any chances and Jiren knew that because of that and the angels' presence his friends werent in any real danger. He was simply yrying to prove a point. Like "dont grow attached because 1 ki blast and they could all be gone in an instant" without actually trying to kill them.

What my point was: they tried to play him like a bad guy at some points in the plot, which wasn"t really necessary, because Jiren was a victim as well like the rest.

[PFM18]

Then why wouldn't Goku have known that as well? That would make it a pointless action / scene. It was a desperate, maybe even irrational but not so very sweet attempt from Jiren to take away Gokus deeper motivation to rely on his instincts: the trust and support of his comrads.
The angels could very well have saved everybody but i don't think Goku wanted to take any chances, he followed his instinct to give them protection.

Yeah Goku wasnt going to take any chances and Jiren knew that because of that and the angels' presence his friends werent in any real danger. He was simply yrying to prove a point. Like "dont grow attached because 1 ki blast and they could all be gone in an instant" without actually trying to kill them.

What my point was: they tried to play him like a bad guy at some points in the plot, which wasn"t really necessary, because Jiren was a victim as well like the rest.

I am well aware of what your point was. I just don't see it. I don't see how he is portrayed as being a "bad guy" especially since he is angry at Toppo for forsaking justice.(and still losing.) He comments on Vegeta's lack of righteousness and his arrogance in his fighting style. He makes cocky comments like literally every other character in Dragon Ball but that is the closest thing he gets to being "a bad guy."

Honestly, I am puzzled to say the least by all of this negative feedback for this fight.

[Mister_Popo]

Yeah Goku wasnt going to take any chances and Jiren knew that because of that and the angels' presence his friends werent in any real danger. He was simply yrying to prove a point. Like "dont grow attached because 1 ki blast and they could all be gone in an instant" without actually trying to kill them.

What my point was: they tried to play him like a bad guy at some points in the plot, which wasn"t really necessary, because Jiren was a victim as well like the rest.

I am well aware of what your point was. I just don't see it. I don't see how he is portrayed as being a "bad guy" especially since he is angry at Toppo for forsaking justice.(and still losing.) He comments on Vegeta's lack of righteousness and his arrogance in his fighting style. He makes cocky comments like literally every other character in Dragon Ball but that is the closest thing he gets to being "a bad guy."

Honestly, I am puzzled to say the least by all of this negative feedback for this fight.

I liked the Universal Tournament, i had more positive than negavite feedback on this fight. I even had to nitpick to fight some cons. I understand why Jiren, Kefla were potrayed as slight bullies: they were the antagonists after all but no villains. As far as i'm concerned, i think a silent Jiren would have even been more mysterious, which suits the characters and is like Toriyama originally intented him to be. I don't share your impression Jiren's objective was to have a philosophical discours with Goku on the fragility of friendship. He was just starting to flip and become really mad in an incontrolled manner, because he didn't expect Goku to have become that strong and he hadn't eliminated him sooner when he still had the chance. He was losing his mind and made a desperate attempt to cut off Goku's 'energy source'.

[Omniboy]

It was okay... I guess. Honestly I just felt complete indifference to Jiren (This also counts for the majority of this tournament as well.) Even though the animation was fantastic, I was just not interested in whatever "theme" they were trying to play. Honestly the "theme" of friendship with characters giving exposistion and yelling out about nakama felt like a cringy attempt at being Naruto and One Piece.

[AnimeNation101]

Not to me, 75% of this fight was reused animation

You must not know what re-used animation is then. That or you’re using hyperbole. Not even 25% of the fight is re-used animation

[DiegoBrando]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

It really isn't up for debate. Goku vs Piccolo had factually much better animation, and much, much better choreography. As for the rest of your post it's just fanfic overthinking. You can overthinking it all you want, but you can't change what was shown on screen. A boring and terrible character, and a fight with zero emotional impact.

[PFM18]

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

It really isn't up for debate. Goku vs Piccolo had factually much better animation, and much, much better choreography. As for the rest of your post it's just fanfic overthinking. You can overthinking it all you want, but you can't change what was shown on screen. A boring and terrible character, and a fight with zero emotional impact.

There's no fanfic overthinking there's more going on in this fight in terms of underlying themes than almost any other fight. And again, the animation is clear as day leaps and bounds better than Piccolo vs Goku

[SonReggie]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

The story behind Goku vs Jiren is better than most others because there actually IS a story behind it. The only one I can think of in DBZ where there was as much emotional conflict between characters is Raditz vs Goku since they were brothers. Everything else in DBZ is just "Hey like I'm evil so I am totally going to try to kill you." This was a battle of ideologies. This isn't as much about friendship as it is about trust. The point was Jiren doesn't trust anybody or anything other than his own strength. His strength is the only thing he can trust because to him it is absolute and it can overcome anything. He learned not to trust people when he went to avenge his parents and his comrads abandoned him and he was left alone. He trusted them and they let him down. This premise is really the core of Jiren's backstory. People get too caught up in the fact that Jiren's parents were killed and think it is just some Batman ripoff. That is a minor part of his backstory when it comes to his character. What affects him now is what I mentioned before that he can't trust anyone because of his fellow students abondoning him in the fight to avenge his mentor/teacher and his parents. Goku has no such issue with trust and he believes that because he trusts his comrades that is how he got to the point he got today. He had to trust people every step of the way to attaining his strength whether it be Krillin and Gohan against Freeza, or Piccolo against Raditz, etc etc. There is absolutely nothing out of character about what he said. And through fighting with Vegeta, 17, and Freeza he ultimately came out victorious and that is the main premise.

And to me, Goku said one of his best quotes of all time when he gained the final power boost to "defeat" Jiren: "I'm not a hero of justice or anything, but those who hurt my friends, I will never forgive!" It is a reflection of his character perfectly. Goku does not go around protecting random people or being a hero. But his most iconic scene is of him being angry because Freeza hurt Piccolo and Krillin. He is not protective or even a hero to most people, he is just that way to those that he loves and trusts. He gained this final rage boost because of his connection to his friends and that is what allowed him to beat Jiren. Jiren didn't have any such connection to anybody, he doesn't trust anybody or anything but his own strength. To me, the fight is extremely well-written and had far more going on than almost any other fight in the entire series. Everything else is like a generic fight with a person who is evil for the sake of being evil. This person he is fighting isn't even evil in anyway, he is a hero in his universe and wants to use his wish to revive some loved ones.

Combine the greatest animation/choreography in the franchise, the highest stakes in the franchise in this fight, and the emotional battle along with the physical one makes this the greatest fight in all of DB. The highest stakes of course, being because multiple universes are at stake in this fight.

Agreed - and it wasn't just the trust that Goku held in others, it was the trust they held in him.

I mean, Ep131; Frieza - friggin FRIEZA - toward the end of the fight, (after he'd forced Jiren downward) clinging onto Jirens arm for all he was worth knowing that he HAD to hold on, trusting that Goku was close behind; and then, justifying that trust, Goku dives at them trying to go SSJ but not having enough left to actually sustain it.

THAT was pure awesome.

[TBMx]

It wasn't good, it was boring.

The reason for this is because both Jiren and Goku UI are non- talkers. Two non talkers don't work, so have to rely on annoyingly redundant commentary from the peanut gallery. Krillin's commentary is expecially grating.

Kefla vs Goku worked because Kefla is such a talker and emotes in a big way. This played well against Goku's non emoting, non talking UI.

Vegeta/Frieza vs Jiren worked because they can carry Jiren in terms of dialogue.

[GohanHiddenPowers]

To me? Not the best. The whole Goku Black saga is better, in terms of fights and drama, and moments of growth. This was one of these fights where the animation is better than the script choices made by the producers (i'm talking about Freeza and 17 lasting more than other characters with much more story in the franchise, as Piccolo and Gohan). As other people said, DBZ had fights where the characters had growth, unlike what we saw in DBS. Even DBGT had its moments. The whole Tournament of Power arc is good to the eyes, the animation is good, specialy since the midle of the tournament, but the equilibrium with the plot choices is not so good.