Was Goku vs Jiren Good?

[PFM18]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Goku vs Piccolo is my favorite fight in the entire series. Goku vs Freeza is second, and Goku vs Jiren is third for me. So Goku vs Jiren isn't my favorite, but it's really up there for me. But right below Goku vs Jiren for me is Goku vs Daimao Round 2 and Goku vs Cell.

Yeah I really liked those too. Honestly I think the best fights are in DB more so than DBZ. My 2nd best wpuld probably be the final fight with Daimao and then the 3rd is probably either Tenshinhan vs Goku or Piccolo Jr vs Goku. Then I would have Goku vs Cell after those.

[Forte224]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

[goku the krump dancer]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

Can I ask you, why you put this fight so as high on the scale as to call it the epitome of Dragon Ball combat? Of all the amazing fights this series has produced in its original run. if anything I feel the Goal of Goku vs Jiren as a whole was to live up to the expectations that past fights have left on its fans and maybe even the genre in general.. Which honestly it doesnt, though it isnt terrible.

[Mister_Popo]

PROS
- Cool introduction, with Jiren evading the blocks without moving, and Goku being mightly impressed. Later on Jiren eliminated Maji Kayo infortlessly. Nonetheless the power is felt everywhere on stage. Goku, again, is very impressed.
- Good build-op before the fight starts in 109. I don't mind Ribrianne that much in the beginning, she allows for a slow tension build-up between Goku and Jiren.
- I liked Goku shifting through all his forms whilst assaulting Jiren for the first time.
- It wasn't constantly Goku vs Jiren in the second part of the fight, 17 and Vegeta participated as well. Goku Blue Kaioken 20 and Ultra Blue Vegeta fighting Jiren without any result and 17s 'sacrifice' was nice stuff as well. It depicted how strong Jiren was to prepare the final endgame and eventually made MUI even more epic.
- UI not a classic power-up, but all new concept. I loved Whis talking about and explaining UI during 129.
- 109, 110, 121, 130 and 131 were dope animation and art quality. 110 were 130 was by far the best animated episodes of Super. I tend to forgive the re-used animation in 129, because they were probably leaving the big effort for 130.
- Great special effects (Spirit Bomb, aura MU, Jiren eyes-attack etc ...) during the battles.
- Goku wanting to trick Jiren with the Ki-landmines and the Destructo Disks. Original stuff, loved that.
- Am i the only one that actually liked Jiren's backstory? Maybe slightly cliche but i did like i for some reason.
- The ending of the battle wasn't preditable how it was handled: not with UI Goku winning or Jiren winning: Goku won, but with Freezas of all people and 17s help.

CONS
- Quality not always consistent and sometimes there was a lot of re-used animation in 123 till 129. Sometimes Jiren even looked like a Looney Tunes-character.
- Too much elements from Goku vs Freeza on Namek in DBZ, which made the battle sometimes sometimes cliche.
- Jiren maybe was a little too much on the OP-side. He should have eliminated U7 by a long shot by the time Goku masters UI.
- He was depicted like a villain at some times, while he was a victim of the situation as well, Jiren wanting to kill Gokus friends was over the top.

[JazzMazz]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

True, story content and direction are also extremely important in determining the quality of a fight.

I don't see how the emphasis on Goku building his strength off the confrontations and rivalries he had across the years is inconsistent with Goku's character, since its something that's absolutely true.

[Forte224]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

True, story content and direction are also extremely important in determining the quality of a fight.

I don't see how the emphasis on Goku building his strength off the confrontations and rivalries he had across the years is inconsistent with Goku's character, since its something that's absolutely true.

No I mean the point where he said to Jiren that he'd win because others were relying on him. Something along the lines of that his friends trusting in him is what gives him strength. It just didn't sound like a line Goku would say.

[JazzMazz]

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

True, story content and direction are also extremely important in determining the quality of a fight.

I don't see how the emphasis on Goku building his strength off the confrontations and rivalries he had across the years is inconsistent with Goku's character, since its something that's absolutely true.

No I mean the point where he said to Jiren that he'd win because others were relying on him. Something along the lines of that his friends trusting in him is what gives him strength. It just didn't sound like a line Goku would say.

I definitely think some of it sounds very un-Goku like. However, upon reflection, Goku saying for example "This is our power", makes a bit more sense, sense his more referring to the power that he built up through fighting others, especially those close to him.
Again, I will agree though, it does sound a little too articulate for Goku.

[Forte224]

Yeah if he said something like that, where it's others that made him stronger over the years, ok I guess. But he seemed to indicate the specific source of his strength in that battle was others relying on him.

But anyway, the point was that the story hampered my enjoyment of the fight, and lines like that from Goku didn't help either.

[PFM18]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

The story behind Goku vs Jiren is better than most others because there actually IS a story behind it. The only one I can think of in DBZ where there was as much emotional conflict between characters is Raditz vs Goku since they were brothers. Everything else in DBZ is just "Hey like I'm evil so I am totally going to try to kill you." This was a battle of ideologies. This isn't as much about friendship as it is about trust. The point was Jiren doesn't trust anybody or anything other than his own strength. His strength is the only thing he can trust because to him it is absolute and it can overcome anything. He learned not to trust people when he went to avenge his parents and his comrads abandoned him and he was left alone. He trusted them and they let him down. This premise is really the core of Jiren's backstory. People get too caught up in the fact that Jiren's parents were killed and think it is just some Batman ripoff. That is a minor part of his backstory when it comes to his character. What affects him now is what I mentioned before that he can't trust anyone because of his fellow students abondoning him in the fight to avenge his mentor/teacher and his parents. Goku has no such issue with trust and he believes that because he trusts his comrades that is how he got to the point he got today. He had to trust people every step of the way to attaining his strength whether it be Krillin and Gohan against Freeza, or Piccolo against Raditz, etc etc. There is absolutely nothing out of character about what he said. And through fighting with Vegeta, 17, and Freeza he ultimately came out victorious and that is the main premise.

And to me, Goku said one of his best quotes of all time when he gained the final power boost to "defeat" Jiren: "I'm not a hero of justice or anything, but those who hurt my friends, I will never forgive!" It is a reflection of his character perfectly. Goku does not go around protecting random people or being a hero. But his most iconic scene is of him being angry because Freeza hurt Piccolo and Krillin. He is not protective or even a hero to most people, he is just that way to those that he loves and trusts. He gained this final rage boost because of his connection to his friends and that is what allowed him to beat Jiren. Jiren didn't have any such connection to anybody, he doesn't trust anybody or anything but his own strength. To me, the fight is extremely well-written and had far more going on than almost any other fight in the entire series. Everything else is like a generic fight with a person who is evil for the sake of being evil. This person he is fighting isn't even evil in anyway, he is a hero in his universe and wants to use his wish to revive some loved ones.

Combine the greatest animation/choreography in the franchise, the highest stakes in the franchise in this fight, and the emotional battle along with the physical one makes this the greatest fight in all of DB. The highest stakes of course, being because multiple universes are at stake in this fight.

[Bergamo]

Let me ask you guys this. What is the best fight in Dragon Ball if it isn't this fight?

Frankly I have recently rewatched DB and most of DBZ and I really don't think anything else even comes close.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

The story behind Goku vs Jiren is better than most others because there actually IS a story behind it. The only one I can think of in DBZ where there was as much emotional conflict between characters is Raditz vs Goku since they were brothers. Everything else in DBZ is just "Hey like I'm evil so I am totally going to try to kill you." This was a battle of ideologies. This isn't as much about friendship as it is about trust. The point was Jiren doesn't trust anybody or anything other than his own strength. His strength is the only thing he can trust because to him it is absolute and it can overcome anything. He learned not to trust people when he went to avenge his parents and his comrads abandoned him and he was left alone. He trusted them and they let him down. This premise is really the core of Jiren's backstory. People get too caught up in the fact that Jiren's parents were killed and think it is just some Batman ripoff. That is a minor part of his backstory when it comes to his character. What affects him now is what I mentioned before that he can't trust anyone because of his fellow students abondoning him in the fight to avenge his mentor/teacher and his parents. Goku has no such issue with trust and he believes that because he trusts his comrades that is how he got to the point he got today. He had to trust people every step of the way to attaining his strength whether it be Krillin and Gohan against Freeza, or Piccolo against Raditz, etc etc. There is absolutely nothing out of character about what he said. And through fighting with Vegeta, 17, and Freeza he ultimately came out victorious and that is the main premise.

And to me, Goku said one of his best quotes of all time when he gained the final power boost to "defeat" Jiren: "I'm not a hero of justice or anything, but those who hurt my friends, I will never forgive!" It is a reflection of his character perfectly. Goku does not go around protecting random people or being a hero. But his most iconic scene is of him being angry because Freeza hurt Piccolo and Krillin. He is not protective or even a hero to most people, he is just that way to those that he loves and trusts. He gained this final rage boost because of his connection to his friends and that is what allowed him to beat Jiren. Jiren didn't have any such connection to anybody, he doesn't trust anybody or anything but his own strength. To me, the fight is extremely well-written and had far more going on than almost any other fight in the entire series. Everything else is like a generic fight with a person who is evil for the sake of being evil. This person he is fighting isn't even evil in anyway, he is a hero in his universe and wants to use his wish to revive some loved ones.

Combine the greatest animation/choreography in the franchise, the highest stakes in the franchise in this fight, and the emotional battle along with the physical one makes this the greatest fight in all of DB. The highest stakes of course, being because multiple universes are at stake in this fight.

The stakes were really low in this battle. It doesn't matter if a billion alternate dimensions will be destroyed if Goku doesn't win, because in the end we know that Goku will be okay. The most important thing is not if everything will be okay, but how they will be okay. In the King Piccolo arc Shenron was dead, so Goku had no way to bring back the victims. In the Frieza saga namek was about to be destroyed and the namekian dragon ball's were turned to stone, so even if Yamcha, Tien, and the victims of the Saiyan attack could be revived, Krillin and all of the namekians seemed to be dead permanently.

In the Jiren saga winning the tournament literally gives you the undo button. There was no point of erasing all of the universes and then giving the winner the Super Dragon Balls. There is no mystery as to what is going to happen.

[CriticalThinker]

The start of the fight was good and the ending of it was fine as well it's just that everything else about it was terrible. My biggest problem was how much they dragged out the fight in the final part of the tournament. The reason was despite spending so many episodes on the fight it felt like they made very little progress since Jiren just tanked everything and Goku didn't seem to lose any stamina. I dunno about you but I quickly became bored by the fight because of this. Another issue is that Jiren was just very dull for a large part of the tournament and they only started to develop him near the end of it, and that wasn't even done that well. For me I don't care how well a fight is animated or how good the art is if I have zero interest in the antagonist that the hero is fighting.

[PFM18]

The start of the fight was good and the ending of it was fine as well it's just that everything else about it was terrible. My biggest problem was how much they dragged out the fight in the final part of the tournament. The reason was despite spending so many episodes on the fight it felt like they made very little progress since Jiren just tanked everything and Goku didn't seem to lose any stamina. I dunno about you but I quickly became bored by the fight because of this. Another issue is that Jiren was just very dull for a large part of the tournament and they only started to develop him near the end of it, and that wasn't even done that well. For me I don't care how well a fight is animated or how good the art is if I have zero interest in the antagonist that the hero is fighting.

Ok great but you are describing Universe 7 vs Jiren not Goku vs Jiren. The only time we saw Goku vs Jiren was 109/110 and 129/130 so I dont know how that could be considered dragged out.

[CriticalThinker]

The start of the fight was good and the ending of it was fine as well it's just that everything else about it was terrible. My biggest problem was how much they dragged out the fight in the final part of the tournament. The reason was despite spending so many episodes on the fight it felt like they made very little progress since Jiren just tanked everything and Goku didn't seem to lose any stamina. I dunno about you but I quickly became bored by the fight because of this. Another issue is that Jiren was just very dull for a large part of the tournament and they only started to develop him near the end of it, and that wasn't even done that well. For me I don't care how well a fight is animated or how good the art is if I have zero interest in the antagonist that the hero is fighting.

Ok great but you are describing Universe 7 vs Jiren not Goku vs Jiren. The only time we saw Goku vs Jiren was 109/110 and 129/130 so I dont know how that could be considered dragged out.

Besides 122, a lot of those fights did involve Goku so that's why I mentioned it dragging on. But if I were to ignore that and just focus on 109/110, 129/130, I still wouldn't think that the fight between Jiren and Goku was that good. Like I said before I don't care how well animated or drawn a fight is if I have zero interest in who the hero is fighting.

[PFM18]

The start of the fight was good and the ending of it was fine as well it's just that everything else about it was terrible. My biggest problem was how much they dragged out the fight in the final part of the tournament. The reason was despite spending so many episodes on the fight it felt like they made very little progress since Jiren just tanked everything and Goku didn't seem to lose any stamina. I dunno about you but I quickly became bored by the fight because of this. Another issue is that Jiren was just very dull for a large part of the tournament and they only started to develop him near the end of it, and that wasn't even done that well. For me I don't care how well a fight is animated or how good the art is if I have zero interest in the antagonist that the hero is fighting.

Ok great but you are describing Universe 7 vs Jiren not Goku vs Jiren. The only time we saw Goku vs Jiren was 109/110 and 129/130 so I dont know how that could be considered dragged out.

Besides 122, a lot of those fights did involve Goku so that's why I mentioned it dragging on. But if I were to ignore that and just focus on 109/110, 129/130, I still wouldn't think that the fight between Jiren and Goku was that good. Like I said before I don't care how well animated or drawn a fight is if I have zero interest in who the hero is fighting.

Well they did involve Goku but it isn't the Goku vs Jiren fight because they were other people involved and it was just less dramatic. I get your opinion of not liking Jiren but saying it dragged on too long because of what happned in the previous episodes just isn't fair to this fight.

In what way? A good fight is more than just good animation and good choreography. Animation and choreography wise, I don't think 130/131 match up to quite a few fights in DB/DBZ. Goku vs Piccolo alone is better.

But, regardless, I could absolutely care less about the story behind the Goku vs Jiren fight. Jiren had the most forced backstory ever, and nothing about Goku's side of it was particularly interesting either. In fact, the emphasis on others relying on Goku and that being the reason he beat Jiren (before UI broke him anyway) isn't very consistent with Goku's character and weakens the story even more.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

The story behind Goku vs Jiren is better than most others because there actually IS a story behind it. The only one I can think of in DBZ where there was as much emotional conflict between characters is Raditz vs Goku since they were brothers. Everything else in DBZ is just "Hey like I'm evil so I am totally going to try to kill you." This was a battle of ideologies. This isn't as much about friendship as it is about trust. The point was Jiren doesn't trust anybody or anything other than his own strength. His strength is the only thing he can trust because to him it is absolute and it can overcome anything. He learned not to trust people when he went to avenge his parents and his comrads abandoned him and he was left alone. He trusted them and they let him down. This premise is really the core of Jiren's backstory. People get too caught up in the fact that Jiren's parents were killed and think it is just some Batman ripoff. That is a minor part of his backstory when it comes to his character. What affects him now is what I mentioned before that he can't trust anyone because of his fellow students abondoning him in the fight to avenge his mentor/teacher and his parents. Goku has no such issue with trust and he believes that because he trusts his comrades that is how he got to the point he got today. He had to trust people every step of the way to attaining his strength whether it be Krillin and Gohan against Freeza, or Piccolo against Raditz, etc etc. There is absolutely nothing out of character about what he said. And through fighting with Vegeta, 17, and Freeza he ultimately came out victorious and that is the main premise.

And to me, Goku said one of his best quotes of all time when he gained the final power boost to "defeat" Jiren: "I'm not a hero of justice or anything, but those who hurt my friends, I will never forgive!" It is a reflection of his character perfectly. Goku does not go around protecting random people or being a hero. But his most iconic scene is of him being angry because Freeza hurt Piccolo and Krillin. He is not protective or even a hero to most people, he is just that way to those that he loves and trusts. He gained this final rage boost because of his connection to his friends and that is what allowed him to beat Jiren. Jiren didn't have any such connection to anybody, he doesn't trust anybody or anything but his own strength. To me, the fight is extremely well-written and had far more going on than almost any other fight in the entire series. Everything else is like a generic fight with a person who is evil for the sake of being evil. This person he is fighting isn't even evil in anyway, he is a hero in his universe and wants to use his wish to revive some loved ones.

Combine the greatest animation/choreography in the franchise, the highest stakes in the franchise in this fight, and the emotional battle along with the physical one makes this the greatest fight in all of DB. The highest stakes of course, being because multiple universes are at stake in this fight.

The stakes were really low in this battle. It doesn't matter if a billion alternate dimensions will be destroyed if Goku doesn't win, because in the end we know that Goku will be okay. The most important thing is not if everything will be okay, but how they will be okay. In the King Piccolo arc Shenron was dead, so Goku had no way to bring back the victims. In the Frieza saga namek was about to be destroyed and the namekian dragon ball's were turned to stone, so even if Yamcha, Tien, and the victims of the Saiyan attack could be revived, Krillin and all of the namekians seemed to be dead permanently.

In the Jiren saga winning the tournament literally gives you the undo button. There was no point of erasing all of the universes and then giving the winner the Super Dragon Balls. There is no mystery as to what is going to happen.

In the end we know Goku will be okay in literally every Dragon Ball series. Did you think after the Piccolo fight Goku wouldn't be okay? Of course not. Did you think after the Buu fight that Goku wouldn't be okay? of course not.

And how does it matter how they will be okay? We ultimately know there's going to be a happy ending where Goku is fine. The specifics don't particularly matter. From an In-Universe perspective their entire Universe is at stake along with another entire Universe in this fight.

Yes, winning gives you an undo button. But what if they lost? Then they all get erased. That is the point. There is LITERALLY NEVER a mystery as to what is going to happen as far as whether "our heroes" will come out of this alright. As I mentioned earlier, the final arc of the previous two series clearly had everybody fine at the end. It is a kid's show we know for a fact everybody is going to be just fine in the end. It is a matter of from an In-Universe perspective, what are the stakes of this fight? And they are the highest of any fight ever seen before in the entire franchise and I don't see how that is up for debate.

[Bergamo]

Ok great but you are describing Universe 7 vs Jiren not Goku vs Jiren. The only time we saw Goku vs Jiren was 109/110 and 129/130 so I dont know how that could be considered dragged out.

Besides 122, a lot of those fights did involve Goku so that's why I mentioned it dragging on. But if I were to ignore that and just focus on 109/110, 129/130, I still wouldn't think that the fight between Jiren and Goku was that good. Like I said before I don't care how well animated or drawn a fight is if I have zero interest in who the hero is fighting.

Well they did involve Goku but it isn't the Goku vs Jiren fight because they were other people involved and it was just less dramatic. I get your opinion of not liking Jiren but saying it dragged on too long because of what happned in the previous episodes just isn't fair to this fight.

Honestly, I am quite puzzled how it can be concluded that the Goku vs Piccolo fight had anywhere close to the animation and choreography that Goku vs Jiren had. I am not sure how that is really even up for debate, even though this is subjective and ultimately nothing definitive can really be stated. To me, the animation and choreography is head and shoulders above anything in the DB franchise before it.

The story behind Goku vs Jiren is better than most others because there actually IS a story behind it. The only one I can think of in DBZ where there was as much emotional conflict between characters is Raditz vs Goku since they were brothers. Everything else in DBZ is just "Hey like I'm evil so I am totally going to try to kill you." This was a battle of ideologies. This isn't as much about friendship as it is about trust. The point was Jiren doesn't trust anybody or anything other than his own strength. His strength is the only thing he can trust because to him it is absolute and it can overcome anything. He learned not to trust people when he went to avenge his parents and his comrads abandoned him and he was left alone. He trusted them and they let him down. This premise is really the core of Jiren's backstory. People get too caught up in the fact that Jiren's parents were killed and think it is just some Batman ripoff. That is a minor part of his backstory when it comes to his character. What affects him now is what I mentioned before that he can't trust anyone because of his fellow students abondoning him in the fight to avenge his mentor/teacher and his parents. Goku has no such issue with trust and he believes that because he trusts his comrades that is how he got to the point he got today. He had to trust people every step of the way to attaining his strength whether it be Krillin and Gohan against Freeza, or Piccolo against Raditz, etc etc. There is absolutely nothing out of character about what he said. And through fighting with Vegeta, 17, and Freeza he ultimately came out victorious and that is the main premise.

And to me, Goku said one of his best quotes of all time when he gained the final power boost to "defeat" Jiren: "I'm not a hero of justice or anything, but those who hurt my friends, I will never forgive!" It is a reflection of his character perfectly. Goku does not go around protecting random people or being a hero. But his most iconic scene is of him being angry because Freeza hurt Piccolo and Krillin. He is not protective or even a hero to most people, he is just that way to those that he loves and trusts. He gained this final rage boost because of his connection to his friends and that is what allowed him to beat Jiren. Jiren didn't have any such connection to anybody, he doesn't trust anybody or anything but his own strength. To me, the fight is extremely well-written and had far more going on than almost any other fight in the entire series. Everything else is like a generic fight with a person who is evil for the sake of being evil. This person he is fighting isn't even evil in anyway, he is a hero in his universe and wants to use his wish to revive some loved ones.

Combine the greatest animation/choreography in the franchise, the highest stakes in the franchise in this fight, and the emotional battle along with the physical one makes this the greatest fight in all of DB. The highest stakes of course, being because multiple universes are at stake in this fight.

The stakes were really low in this battle. It doesn't matter if a billion alternate dimensions will be destroyed if Goku doesn't win, because in the end we know that Goku will be okay. The most important thing is not if everything will be okay, but how they will be okay. In the King Piccolo arc Shenron was dead, so Goku had no way to bring back the victims. In the Frieza saga namek was about to be destroyed and the namekian dragon ball's were turned to stone, so even if Yamcha, Tien, and the victims of the Saiyan attack could be revived, Krillin and all of the namekians seemed to be dead permanently.

In the Jiren saga winning the tournament literally gives you the undo button. There was no point of erasing all of the universes and then giving the winner the Super Dragon Balls. There is no mystery as to what is going to happen.

In the end we know Goku will be okay in literally every Dragon Ball series. Did you think after the Piccolo fight Goku wouldn't be okay? Of course not. Did you think after the Buu fight that Goku wouldn't be okay? of course not.

And how does it matter how they will be okay? We ultimately know there's going to be a happy ending where Goku is fine. The specifics don't particularly matter. From an In-Universe perspective their entire Universe is at stake along with another entire Universe in this fight.

Yes, winning gives you an undo button. But what if they lost? Then they all get erased. That is the point. There is LITERALLY NEVER a mystery as to what is going to happen as far as whether "our heroes" will come out of this alright. As I mentioned earlier, the final arc of the previous two series clearly had everybody fine at the end. It is a kid's show we know for a fact everybody is going to be just fine in the end. It is a matter of from an In-Universe perspective, what are the stakes of this fight? And they are the highest of any fight ever seen before in the entire franchise and I don't see how that is up for debate.
't

1. The specifics do matter. If you take a way the specifics then you just get good guy beats up bad guy, and there are hundreds of other anime that do the same thing.

2. The stakes are still debateably higher from an in-universe perspective. In the King Piccolo Saga everyone was going to die. In the Universal Survival Saga everyone was going to die. Just because we know more people exist doesn't mean that literally everyone dying is more or less significant.

[PFM18]

Besides 122, a lot of those fights did involve Goku so that's why I mentioned it dragging on. But if I were to ignore that and just focus on 109/110, 129/130, I still wouldn't think that the fight between Jiren and Goku was that good. Like I said before I don't care how well animated or drawn a fight is if I have zero interest in who the hero is fighting.

Well they did involve Goku but it isn't the Goku vs Jiren fight because they were other people involved and it was just less dramatic. I get your opinion of not liking Jiren but saying it dragged on too long because of what happned in the previous episodes just isn't fair to this fight.

The stakes were really low in this battle. It doesn't matter if a billion alternate dimensions will be destroyed if Goku doesn't win, because in the end we know that Goku will be okay. The most important thing is not if everything will be okay, but how they will be okay. In the King Piccolo arc Shenron was dead, so Goku had no way to bring back the victims. In the Frieza saga namek was about to be destroyed and the namekian dragon ball's were turned to stone, so even if Yamcha, Tien, and the victims of the Saiyan attack could be revived, Krillin and all of the namekians seemed to be dead permanently.

In the Jiren saga winning the tournament literally gives you the undo button. There was no point of erasing all of the universes and then giving the winner the Super Dragon Balls. There is no mystery as to what is going to happen.

In the end we know Goku will be okay in literally every Dragon Ball series. Did you think after the Piccolo fight Goku wouldn't be okay? Of course not. Did you think after the Buu fight that Goku wouldn't be okay? of course not.

And how does it matter how they will be okay? We ultimately know there's going to be a happy ending where Goku is fine. The specifics don't particularly matter. From an In-Universe perspective their entire Universe is at stake along with another entire Universe in this fight.

Yes, winning gives you an undo button. But what if they lost? Then they all get erased. That is the point. There is LITERALLY NEVER a mystery as to what is going to happen as far as whether "our heroes" will come out of this alright. As I mentioned earlier, the final arc of the previous two series clearly had everybody fine at the end. It is a kid's show we know for a fact everybody is going to be just fine in the end. It is a matter of from an In-Universe perspective, what are the stakes of this fight? And they are the highest of any fight ever seen before in the entire franchise and I don't see how that is up for debate.
't

1. The specifics do matter. If you take a way the specifics then you just get good guy beats up bad guy, and there are hundreds of other anime that do the same thing.

2. The stakes are still debateably higher from an in-universe perspective. In the King Piccolo Saga everyone was going to die. In the Universal Survival Saga everyone was going to die. Just because we know more people exist doesn't mean that literally everyone dying is more or less significant.

1. At the end of the day, we know everybody is going to fine but as far as the characters within the show are concerned, everyone's life hangs in the balance of this fight.

2. That is fair. I guess we could change that to "The stakes are as high or higher than any other fight in the franchise"

Jiren wanting to kill Gokus friends was over the top.

He didn't want to kill Goku's friends he was just trying to prove a point that everyone he loves can be taken away from him in an instant. There was a brigade of Angels who are all stronger than Jiren and can create impenetrable barriers so nobody was actually in any real danger.

[Cipher]

I can't remember a damn thing about Goku vs. Jiren round two except:

1. The Goku-Freeza team-up in the final episode, which is legitimately great and full of distinct beats.

2. Goku standing firm under the enormous rain of punches, which is barely animated but one of those cool and believable scale-selling moments (not in terms of number-crunching power-scaling, but in terms of insane visual escalation from previous fights).

3. That scene where Goku runs up Jiren's beams in episode 130, which lasts like two seconds.

It's not a good fight. It could have been. Everything is on the table for a thematically interesting finale: you have the altruistic hero Jiren versus all-avarice Goku; you have his desire to get stronger to prevent or undo injustices and Goku, who thinks so much less about them, being a conduit through which they can mutually improve (to Jiren's chagrin, and hey, mirrored in Freeza, who plays a major role in the very same arc); you have Jiren's distrust of others despite his desire to use strength to save or protect them (even correcting the past), versus Goku's, again, selfishness but his converse ability to draw others into his circle; you have the final twist on top of all that that Jiren's desires would have killed everyone had he attempted his wish, while Goku is so single-minded that he doesn't care to use such opportunities for anything remotely related to personal gain.

The fight has the ability to pull through on so many contradictions and twists that play into the series central themes of selfishness vs. selflessness, connection, self-improvement, etc., and all the messy, whimsically unintuitive ways they come together.

But it just sucks. All of the thematically interesting bits come too late, and when they arrive they're never addressed subtly or believably by the characters—they disappear for long stretches only to return shoehorned in with some of the most embarrassingly transparent dialogue Dragon Ball, a series that never expressly verbalizes its themes, has ever been subjected to.

In addition, Dragon Ball's fights have always relied on character-defining or thematic moments being spaced in among genuinely memorable, distinct beats of action—in terms of spectacle and choreography. There's a sense throughout its climactic fights that things are constantly progressing. None of that is true for Goku versus Jiren. The character and thematic bits are mishandled and, while there are bits of flashy animation but, production-value aside, there's very little in the way of distinct beats prior to its very final episode. It's just a lot of things happening, and then some other things happen, and then it's the end. A summary of the Goku versus Jiren fight prior to Freeza and #17's reemergence in the finale would be about three sentences long. Think about how much stuff happens in Goku versus Piccolo, Goku versus Vegeta, Goku versus Freeza, Gohan versus Cell, Goku and Vegeta versus Boo—how many times the fights undergo fundamental shifts in paradigm the characters are forced to react to, sometimes highlighting or cementing personal growth. Even GT, which no one could accuse of having incredibly interesting choreography or character growth within its climactic fights, manages to capture the formula of giving them very specific events and stages.

Of course all of that requires planning and coordination (or the natural storytelling abilities of a single author flying by the seat of his pants, as was sometimes the case), none of which Super could boast. I don't think everything somehow coming together was ever really in the scope of the series as we know it; snagging a flashy episode here or there was probably the most we could hope for.

I don't think the fight couldn't have been good. It's just that it isn't. Toyotaro's no master of action, so I have little hope for the manga saving the visual iconography (though who knows; he's certainly stepped up his game a bit recently), but hopefully it can at least make something of its thematic and character beats. But subtly, subtly. Just let the characters be themselves. No need to go full-on Oda.

[Marlowe89]

But it just sucks. All of the thematically interesting bits come too late, and when they arrive they're never addressed subtly or believably by the characters—they disappear for long stretches only to return shoehorned in with some of the most embarrassingly transparent dialogue Dragon Ball, a series that never expressly verbalizes its themes, has ever been subjected to.

That was my biggest problem with it. For a fight that was supposed to be such a big deal, it felt like one of the least compelling conflicts in Dragon Ball history because its themes are consistently forced down your throat without any room to breathe or organically play to the narrative in the simplistic-but-snappy way that the series was known for. This isn't Naruto, so I don't want to feel like I'm watching Naruto. The melodrama was almost cringeworthy at times, although the scripting in the final episode was indeed fantastic.

To Toei's credit, Goku vs. Jiren is still one of the most visually appealing spectacles in the franchise and you can tell that they put a ton of effort into that part of it. The storyboarding and direction were absolutely solid throughout, despite my issues with the actual story.

[Mister_Popo]

Well they did involve Goku but it isn't the Goku vs Jiren fight because they were other people involved and it was just less dramatic. I get your opinion of not liking Jiren but saying it dragged on too long because of what happned in the previous episodes just isn't fair to this fight.



In the end we know Goku will be okay in literally every Dragon Ball series. Did you think after the Piccolo fight Goku wouldn't be okay? Of course not. Did you think after the Buu fight that Goku wouldn't be okay? of course not.

And how does it matter how they will be okay? We ultimately know there's going to be a happy ending where Goku is fine. The specifics don't particularly matter. From an In-Universe perspective their entire Universe is at stake along with another entire Universe in this fight.

Yes, winning gives you an undo button. But what if they lost? Then they all get erased. That is the point. There is LITERALLY NEVER a mystery as to what is going to happen as far as whether "our heroes" will come out of this alright. As I mentioned earlier, the final arc of the previous two series clearly had everybody fine at the end. It is a kid's show we know for a fact everybody is going to be just fine in the end. It is a matter of from an In-Universe perspective, what are the stakes of this fight? And they are the highest of any fight ever seen before in the entire franchise and I don't see how that is up for debate.
't

1. The specifics do matter. If you take a way the specifics then you just get good guy beats up bad guy, and there are hundreds of other anime that do the same thing.

2. The stakes are still debateably higher from an in-universe perspective. In the King Piccolo Saga everyone was going to die. In the Universal Survival Saga everyone was going to die. Just because we know more people exist doesn't mean that literally everyone dying is more or less significant.

1. At the end of the day, we know everybody is going to fine but as far as the characters within the show are concerned, everyone's life hangs in the balance of this fight.

2. That is fair. I guess we could change that to "The stakes are as high or higher than any other fight in the franchise"

Jiren wanting to kill Gokus friends was over the top.

He didn't want to kill Goku's friends he was just trying to prove a point that everyone he loves can be taken away from him in an instant. There was a brigade of Angels who are all stronger than Jiren and can create impenetrable barriers so nobody was actually in any real danger.

Then why wouldn't Goku have known that as well? That would make it a pointless action / scene. It was a desperate, maybe even irrational but not so very sweet attempt from Jiren to take away Gokus deeper motivation to rely on his instincts: the trust and support of his comrads.
The angels could very well have saved everybody but i don't think Goku wanted to take any chances, he followed his instinct to give them protection.

[PFM18]

1. The specifics do matter. If you take a way the specifics then you just get good guy beats up bad guy, and there are hundreds of other anime that do the same thing.

2. The stakes are still debateably higher from an in-universe perspective. In the King Piccolo Saga everyone was going to die. In the Universal Survival Saga everyone was going to die. Just because we know more people exist doesn't mean that literally everyone dying is more or less significant.

1. At the end of the day, we know everybody is going to fine but as far as the characters within the show are concerned, everyone's life hangs in the balance of this fight.

2. That is fair. I guess we could change that to "The stakes are as high or higher than any other fight in the franchise"

Jiren wanting to kill Gokus friends was over the top.

He didn't want to kill Goku's friends he was just trying to prove a point that everyone he loves can be taken away from him in an instant. There was a brigade of Angels who are all stronger than Jiren and can create impenetrable barriers so nobody was actually in any real danger.

Then why wouldn't Goku have known that as well? That would make it a pointless action / scene. It was a desperate, maybe even irrational but not so very sweet attempt from Jiren to take away Gokus deeper motivation to rely on his instincts: the trust and support of his comrads.
The angels could very well have saved everybody but i don't think Goku wanted to take any chances, he followed his instinct to give them protection.

Yeah Goku wasnt going to take any chances and Jiren knew that because of that and the angels' presence his friends werent in any real danger. He was simply yrying to prove a point. Like "dont grow attached because 1 ki blast and they could all be gone in an instant" without actually trying to kill them.