addressing some DBS criticism

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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addressing some DBS criticism

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:48 pm

I understand that a lot of people don't like Dragon Ball Super. The problem is that a lot of times the criticism that DBS gets often doesn't actually make any sense. I am going to address the faulty logic and biases behind a lot of these criticisms.

"All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"
-The most iconic scene in the entire series is simply Goku changing the color of his hair from Black to Gold. Color changes being transformations is a core part of DB and DBS was just building on DBZ. And it isn't as though the colors don't mean anything, they represent a characteristic of the new form.

The transformations in DBS aren't any more lazy than any in DBZ. The only form that has real creativity in it's design is SSJ4. DBZ had a recolor, a change in hairstyle, and then the last transformaton was just turning the character into damn Rapunzel in having hair down to their ankles. There is nothing any more creative about the transformation in DBZ. You can barely even tell the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 sometimes. The forms in DBS had real meaning too.

SSG - A legendary ritual that brings about the inception of God Ki, The Red Aura is fiery in nature and represents the new found abilities that the user has.

SSB - A combination of the user utilizing God Ki, controlling their ki to not allow it to leak their body, and combining that with Super Saiyan. The Blue Aura represents the tranquel control that the user in the transformation has. This control of ki combined with the legendary Super Saiyan form yields this very powerful transformation.

SSBE - Vegeta receives this form when his priorities shifted from establishing himself as the greatest, and surpassing Goku, to fighting to protect those that he love and what he loves. He mutates SSB further when this realization occurs and he fully unlocks the power when fully realizes his love for his family and his pride, and this ignites his power and allowing him to break his limits.

Ultra Instinct-This tranformation was foreshadowed ALMOST A HUNDRED EPISODES PRIOR TO IT BEING ACHIEVED. Goku built up this form from the time he first became Whis's student and when he achieved this Whis became a proud teacher. This teacher-student moment does not exist in any other transformation. That alone makes it creative.

It is creative because it is the first and only transformation that means something more than "Yeah dude like I'm faster and my punches hurt more." It isn't strictly a power boost. It was achieved when Goku had to fight to not die from his own Spirit Bomb. He had to push himself beyond his previous limitations in order to win the tournament for the sake of his Universe. He had to break his limits FOR A REASON and that is how this transformation came about. Whether it be the Spirit Bomb almost vaporizing his body, Kefla pushing him to the brink, or Jiren pummeling him into oblivion, Goku actually had to work his a** off to get this transformation. Rather than SSJ and SSJ2 were literally just a result of being pissed off. Although Super Saiyan Rage isn't real creative and was just used as a plot device to bring Trunk up to speed in line with Goku/Vegeta/Black.

Sure, the actual aesthetics of it aren't crazy, but that is the point. It is meant to be kept simple. That is just Toriyama's style and it is true to who he is as a writer. Besides, the colors mean something. I recommend you watch MasakoX's videos on color theory because he explains it better than I ever could.


"It had too many transformations! Transformation fatigue!"

The main cast of characters, Goku, Vegeta etc only actually received 4 new forms:

SSB
SSG
SSBE
UI

The same as DBZ:

SSJ
ASSJ
SSJ2
SSJ3

Yes, Z has more episodes but that is simply a result of the much slower pacing in DBZ. The substance itself is actually less especially when you take into account all of the filler in DBZ. DBS has 5 story arcs where DBZ has only 4. By comparing the two series on a per episode bias you are holding DBS's pacing against it. DBS doesn't have 100 episode long arcs and that is the only reason why it appears that the forms are less frequent. In reality, in terms of the story, they are more frequent. In DBS, the highest form of the main cast stays the same for 3 consecutive arcs.(SSGSS in RoF, U6, and the Zamasu Arc.) You cannot say the same about DBZ. Every new arc yielded a new transformation and it was a centerpiece of the story. DBZ went at a snail pace but in terms of the story's substance, new transformations played a larger role in the story.

It makes no sense to count Berserker SSJ, or SSJ Rose since they are antagonists's transformations. If we are going to that we might as well count Cell's 2 transformations, Freeza's 4 transformations, and Buu's 2.

"The ToP was like 30 episodes but was supposed to only take 48 minutes! Plot hole! I can't take it seriously!"

The time seeming off is simply a result of the show's sequence of events. There is so much happening at once that they show you things happening sequnetially, that are actually happening in Universe simultaneously. That is why it is possible to make videos in "real time" that match up with the 48 minutes. An episode can only be 1 In-Universe minute since they are showing events that are supposed to all be happening at the same time, one after another, for minutes at a time. Additionally, the speed of the characters is so fast that it should be shorter In-Universe than "what we see." The Freeza "5 minutes" scene from DBZ is far more egregious than this.(Especially considering this isn't egregious at all)

"The power scaling is so bad! It doesn't make sense!"

Then they give examples of scenes that are simply a result of them just misinterpreting the scenes For example, Gohan vs Goku on the farm, Kale fighting Goku as a SSB and then later as a SSG, or Lavender/Basil giving any trouble to Basee Goku and Vegeta. If you take these scenes at face value they seem like inconsistencies but if you pay attention and look deeper they all make sense.

Sure, there are some power scaling inconsistencies, but not much more than in DBZ, if any more at all. Whether it be the unbelievably wildly inconsistent zenkai boosts, Piccolo keeping with pace with the other characters who had just gotten a 50x boost in the 3 year gap with absolutely no explanation despite never never showing the ability to have superior training results to the Saiyans, Tenshinhan being able to do anything to Semi-Perfect Cell when 17/18 who dominated him could do absolutely nothing against Cell, Gohan and Kururin being able to damage Dodoria despite being stated to only be Saiyan arc Vegeta level when their potential was unlocked, and Trunks being able to knock away and damage Boo after he was overpowering Majin Vegeta. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Although none of these are particularly egregious, very few of them are really that bad in DBS if you pay attention and don't get confused.

Also, as far as power scaling, people confuse things that they simply don't like, with things that are objectively inconsistent. Just because you don't like a character's power increase doesn't mean it is objectively inconsistent. If there is no precedence set for a character's potential power increases previously, it is not inconsistent to see very large boosts in a "short" time. Essentially what I am saying is that it is not bad power scaling simply because you don't like it. For example:

-Android 17 gaining a very large power boost prior to joining the ToP. We hadn't seen Android 17 for FOURTEEN YEARS prior to this point. Considering that he had never trained in DBZ, and it had been 14 years, it is not contradicting anything for him to gain an enormous power boost.
-Freeza gaining a large boost in his 4 months training. There's no precedence that is ever set in regards to his training boosts, since he had never trained before. You may dislike it, but it is not objectively inconsistent.
-Future Trunks being able to compete with Goku/Vegeta who had grown astronomically more powerful than their DBZ counterparts. This one is probably the worst of the three since we have seen Trunks train before. Was his boost very large? Yes it was. But hybrid Saiyans were stated to have a higher potential and it had also been fourteen years since we had seen Trunks last. He was training since and spent the last couple years fighitng Black and pushing himself to the limit fighting him. This isn't particularly objectively inconsistent for Trunks to gain a large boost.

"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"

Original Dragon Ball had 3 tournament arcs. The DB franchise has been built upon tournaments. It is first and foremost a series about fighting/battles and a tournament is a great way to showcase that in an interesting way. To criticize Super for this but disregard the concept in DB is irrational.

The arcs that aren't tournaments have "villains" but one of them is a returning villain and another kind of joins the crew so people don't really count them. They just conveniently disregard the fact that Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Vegeta were all turned from bad to good but criticize Super since one of the "villains" doesn't stay a villain. It makes no sense. So yes, technically Zamasu is the only "true" villain in DBS, but it is hypocritical to not apply the same logic to Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Vegeta as people do to Beerus.

"The ToP didn't feel like a Battle Royale at all! Character X and Y of Universe 7 were wasted! They were hyped up but didn't do anything!"

These criticisms each on their own make sense. But to criticize the ToP for both of these things is just irrational. The more that there is a Battle Royale aspect to the ToP the fewer opportunites that fan favorite characters have to shine and get eliminations themselves. Universe 6 had several eliminations but for the most part Universe 7 had most of the eliminations in the tournament. But let's say that Universe 11 and/or Universe 3 get a proportional number of eliminations, that is that many fewer for Kururin, Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Gohan. If it actually became a true Battle Royale, people would complain even more about Universe 7 characters being "wasted." Let's consider that say, Piccolo gets more eliminations than he did. Those eliminations would be taken away from the several Universe 6 had and/or those from other universes and people would complain more about the diminished "Battle Royale" aspects of the tournament.

Additionally, it isn't as though the other Universes focusing on Universe 7 and it becoming a U7 vs everyone tournament wasn't explained. Bergamo and Toppo villainized Goku and his Universe and that was followed by the Universe 9 Kaioshin calling a meeting and blaming Goku/U7 for the tournament and not inviting the corresponding the corresponding gods of Universe 7 to this meeting. The "ganging up" on Universe 7 was planned and explained. While I admit that it could have been emphasized and explained better, it isn't as though this is an example of having no precedence and just being inconsistent writing. But Like I said, complaining about each of these things individually makes sense, but saying one of these things and turning around and saying the other in the same token is irrational.

Please note I am not trying to attack anybody specifically or really anyone at all.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:51 am

1. Transformations
Having red, pink, blue, green, and silver super saiyan forms is definitely a problem. Before DBS it was understood that when a saiyan reached a certain level of power their hair turns golden, which is a believable biological trait, but when any varying circumstance causes a saiyan's hair to turn a new color it's questionable. SS1 was definitely not a recolor like you stated. Goku's eyes changed shape, his hair changed color, and he got a new hairstyle. This is a lot different than SSB which is SS1 except, well, Blue.

Another complaint with your reasoning.
Super had...
SSG
SSB
UI

DBZ had...
SS1
SS2
SS3

This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.

In conclusion, more forms, more colors, less time between forms, and less epic transformation sequences makes DBS's transformations feel bland.

2. ToP time frame
The issue isn't that people think there are too many episodes. The real problem is that the tournament feels dragged out.

3. Powerscaling
My issue lies in characters like Goku Black spontaneously getting more powerful for no reason, because it pointlessly makes the narrative less enjoyable.

As for the examples you mentioned.
-It would make sense if 17 got stronger by training for 14 years, but he did nothing for that amount of time, so he should be just as strong. Future 17 presumably participated in more battles for a longer period of time, so he shouldn't have been beaten by Ascended SS Trunks.
-Frieza is fine in my opinion.
-There is no explanation for SSRAGE that will make that form less bad.

3. Villains and other ToP complaints
I don't really have anything to say about your opinions on these subjects.
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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Saturnine » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:18 am

Not even Freeza's 5 minutes feels bad if you know jack shit about how fast the characters at that point are supposed to be moving. It's so obvious I even think they didn't bother explaining it on purpose, because they assumed fans would know better. Of course all the painful filler makes it much, much worse, but that's why we call it filler and can ignore it.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:14 am

Bergamo wrote:1. Transformations
Having red, pink, blue, green, and silver super saiyan forms is definitely a problem. Before DBS it was understood that when a saiyan reached a certain level of power their hair turns golden, which is a believable biological trait, but when any varying circumstance causes a saiyan's hair to turn a new color it's questionable. SS1 was definitely not a recolor like you stated. Goku's eyes changed shape, his hair changed color, and he got a new hairstyle. This is a lot different than SSB which is SS1 except, well, Blue.

Another complaint with your reasoning.
Super had...
SSG
SSB
UI

DBZ had...
SS1
SS2
SS3

This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.

In conclusion, more forms, more colors, less time between forms, and less epic transformation sequences makes DBS's transformations feel bland.
I think your neglecting the actual spread of transformations in the actual story, for example, ascended SS, super ascended SS, full power SS and SS2 were all transformations shown in quick succession. Same for SS3, Fusion and Ultimate.

Supers transformations are quite spaced out comparatively, with the only real influx of forms coming during the TOP(and even then 2 of those forms were basically the same thing).

Super had a problem handling things like SSB, Kaioken and Evolution, because they really didn't do anything to make those forms feel special beyond making them seem vaguely stronger than another form the character had. Outside of SSG at the beginning, and the UI forms, the other transformations didn't really have the levity they should of.
2. ToP time frame
The issue isn't that people think there are too many episodes. The real problem is that the tournament feels dragged out.
The tournament feels dragged out, because there were too many episodes.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:52 pm

This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.
You must not have read my post because literally all of these "points" were addressed in my original post. It just is objectively contradictory logic

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:56 pm

"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"
I don't really see this is an issue, considering that the one arc that wasn't a tournament featured the most unique, complex and developed villain in the entire Dragon Ball series by far.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:17 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"
I don't really see this is an issue, considering that the one arc that wasn't a tournament featured the most unique, complex and developed villain in the entire Dragon Ball series by far.
Ah you love your Zamasu.

I was more referring to people being contradictory in regards to not counting Beerus as a villain since he joined the squad and became "good" but completely disregard Vegeta, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo. I'm not stating my opinion or saying that I would prefer it one way or the other, I am just debunking their contradictory logic where they don't count Beerus. The truth of the matter is that there were 2 new villains and 1 returning villain in DBS rather than people claiming ridiculously that there was only one villain

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:09 pm

The most iconic scene in the entire series is simply Goku changing the color of his hair from Black to Gold
That was once so it obviously didn't feel that lazy. And also that was the first SSJ transformation, a legend that was being talked about even in Saiyan saga.
Problem with Super is not only that they just recolor forms with mostly only aura changes (SSJG,SSJB,SSJR,UI/MUI, SSJBE) but also that there are so many of them with zero lore except for SSJG and obviously UI that actually was mentioned much earlier even tho it was forgotten right after that and brought back just for tournament. And SSJBE is the biggest asspull ever made. It was only added so Vegeta got some new form for no reason. They darkened SSJ Blue and actually called that a new form. DBZ introuced only SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 and even that seemed lazy for some people. I actually think SSJ2 is awful as well. SSJ3 is better because it's different.
The ToP was like 30 episodes but was supposed to only take 48 minutes! Plot hole! I can't take it seriously!
Ok, that's not plothole in any way. Sure, it seems illogical, but that's the same case as 5 minutes on Namek, anime just makes everything longer. It won't be that stupid in manga. The problem with this arc is that it takes 30 episodes, but you can skip almost all of them and you won't lose anything. Most of episodes focus on fighting completely irrelevant and forgettable characters. You could watch the special episode with UI debut and last 3 episodes and you pretty much know entire saga. Also, before tournament ever started, there were a lot of pointless episodes like Goku looking for everyone (and of course fighting everyone) as well as pointless test tournament against U9. That's the real problem of that arc. This arc in manga is for now like 100 times better than anime that was disaster to me and it's actually enjoyable because it doesn't focus on all those pointless things that do not add anything to franchise.
The power scaling is so bad! It doesn't make sense!
Well, that's true. Asspull boosts are one thing, but scaling changing all the time is different thing. Sometimes, Goku seems very strong, sometimes he seems very weak.
With #17 well, people are still complaining about Super 17's power even though it makes more sense so...
There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!
For a series they had 20 years to work on they should come with something more original and creative than 2 movie retellings and 2 tournaments.
Original DB still had sagas with Pilaf, Red Ribbon and King Piccolo.
And Tien actually was showed as a villain, but Hit was just final enemy in tournament being pawn of Champa but you can't even call Champa a villain.
The only villain DBS introduced was Zamasu who turned out to be controversial and disappointed many people that expected something completely fresh rather than using all those fanservice points like evil Goku, Future Trunks and Vegito. Even if we consider Zamasu a good mix, it still isn't original mix and that's what many people wanted. He didn't really show much by himself. There is not much unique about Zamasu if you compare him to Beerus who is unique, but he came from Movie so it isn't fair to say that DBS introduced him. DBZ movie did that, not DBS series, nor DBS movie. Even Zamasu being a god isn't new because Beerus already was a god and there was even entire movie called Battle of Gods.
The ToP didn't feel like a Battle Royale at all! Character X and Y of Universe 7 were wasted! They were hyped up but didn't do anything!
Well, that was expected. Can't really call it a disappointment when i didn't have any expectations for that. I would be surprised if it was different.
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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:01 pm

PFM18 wrote:
This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.
You must not have read my post because literally all of these "points" were addressed in my original post. It just is objectively contradictory logic
That's not an argument. How am I supposed to defend my point when you completely evade my arguments.
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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:05 pm

Bergamo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.
You must not have read my post because literally all of these "points" were addressed in my original post. It just is objectively contradictory logic
That's not an argument. How am I supposed to defend my point when you completely evade my arguments.
I should be saying the same thing. Because you didn't READ my argument in the first place. (Hence evading my arguments.) If you would have read it you would have known that I had already addressed everything that you said in my original post

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:08 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
You must not have read my post because literally all of these "points" were addressed in my original post. It just is objectively contradictory logic
That's not an argument. How am I supposed to defend my point when you completely evade my arguments.
I should be saying the same thing. Because you didn't READ my argument in the first place. (Hence evading my arguments.) If you would have read it you would have known that I had already addressed everything that you said in my original post
I did read your post. I read through the whole thing and then had it open in a separate tab for reference while I made my post. Make a counterargument or don't reply.
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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:51 pm

Bergamo wrote:Another complaint with your reasoning.
Super had...
SSG
SSB
UI

DBZ had...
SS1
SS2
SS3

This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.
Ascended Super Saiyan and SSBE makes the count even both are transformations that only Vegeta used. If you count Super Saiyan Rage you need to count "Ultra Super Saiyan" you can't just ignore one Trunks exclusive transformation while acknowledging the other. Really Trunks shouldn't be included because he only appears in one arc in both series. If you count Omen, you need to count Mastered Super Saiyan because they are just different versions of the same form. Ultimately, no matter which way you look at it, they introduce the same number of transformations.

As far as including Super Saiyan Berserk and Super Saiyan Rose it just doesn't make sense since they are antagonists. If we are going to count antagonist's tranformations and not just the main cast then we would have to include Freeza having 3 transformations, Cell having 2, Buu having 2, and Vegeta having 1. Literally every one of the main antagonists in DBZ have transformations. It is clearly biased and unfair to DBS to include SSJ Berserk and SSJ Rose.

Looking on it on a per episode basis is also biased towards DBZ because it is simply a reflection of the slow pacing of DBS. You are holding the pacing against DBS rather than actually considering the transformations themselves. DBS has 5 arcs and DBZ has 4 and yet they both introduce the same number of transformations. Once you fairly account for the pacing of each show, If anything DBZ introduces more transformations given it has fewer arcs.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Bergamo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:56 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Another complaint with your reasoning.
Super had...
SSG
SSB
UI

DBZ had...
SS1
SS2
SS3

This seems even, but while DBZ has ascended super saiyan as an extra form, DBS has omen, SSBE, SSRAGE,SSROSE, and SSBERSERK. Removing filler DBS had 1 transformation every 38 episodes, where DBZ had one transformation every 82 episodes. These episodes in between transformations really help flesh them out. Finally, DBS only had 1 real transformation sequence, which made the forms less memorable.
Ascended Super Saiyan and SSBE makes the count even both are transformations that only Vegeta used. If you count Super Saiyan Rage you need to count "Ultra Super Saiyan" you can't just ignore one Trunks exclusive transformation while acknowledging the other. Really Trunks shouldn't be included because he only appears in one arc in both series. If you count Omen, you need to count Mastered Super Saiyan because they are just different versions of the same form. Ultimately, no matter which way you look at it, they introduce the same number of transformations.

As far as including Super Saiyan Berserk and Super Saiyan Rose it just doesn't make sense since they are antagonists. If we are going to count antagonist's tranformations and not just the main cast then we would have to include Freeza having 3 transformations, Cell having 2, Buu having 2, and Vegeta having 1. Literally every one of the main antagonists in DBZ have transformations. It is clearly biased and unfair to DBS to include SSJ Berserk and SSJ Rose.

Looking on it on a per episode basis is also biased towards DBZ because it is simply a reflection of the slow pacing of DBS. You are holding the pacing against DBS rather than actually considering the transformations themselves. DBS has 5 arcs and DBZ has 4 and yet they both introduce the same number of transformations. Once you fairly account for the pacing of each show, If anything DBZ introduces more transformations given it has fewer arcs.
I'm counting uniquely saiyan transformations, because that is my main problem. I think that the random appearance of multicolored saiyan forms in Super cheapens Super Saiyan and isn't believable in the context of biological metamorphosis. SSG and SSBERSERK both grant the user about the same amount of power yet look completely different. SSRAGE, SSB, and SSROSE are about equal yet they have different hair colors. MUI isn't even a saiyan transformation yet Goku's hair changes color.

The reason that Ascended SS isn't as egregious is because...
1. It isn't a uniquely saiyan form, as Frieza, Cell, Buu, and Jiren can all buff themselves up to increase their power.
2. They all look the same. Transformation literally means change in form, so it's a bit dishonest to say that FPSS is just as much of a transformation from SS as SSGSSE is from SSGSS.

I actually like UI omen and SSGSSE, but the fact that there is now a saiyan form for every color of the rainbow, when it was originally a form with legendary golden hair cheapens things in my opinion.

Even if you want to argue about arcs, episodes, and pacing, there are objectively more events in between DBZ forms. After learning the Kaioken, Goku trained in the gravity chamber increasing his power beyond normal saiyan capabilities, recovered from near death and got one of the most significant power boosts in DB history, amped up Kaioken to x20, and conjured up the most gigantic attack anyone had ever seen before. This combined with the desperation of the situation made SS legendary. Goku did all of this, and yet super saiyan made him even more powerful. There really was nothing in between SSG and SSB. You could have made Golden Frieza SSG level and taken out SSB entirely, and the story would be exactly the same.

Finally, DBS didn't give SSG otr SSB any epic moments. Everyone remembers Goku vs Frieza, Gohan vs Cell, and Goku transforming into SS3 for the first time, but what did SSG and SSB do. The climax of the BoG arc didn't even include SSG. SSG and SSB never overpowered their opponent. SSB Goku and Vegeta beat Frieza because of their superior stamina, and by the next arc SSB was irrelevant without Kaioken. The only reason SSB made an impression at all is because Goku spammed it against everyone(including Krillin). This only succeeded in making the form boring for me.

In short,the only forms I really have a problem with in terms of spacing within the story are SSG and SSB, but I cannot stand all of the unnecessary color changes.
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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:09 am

PFM18 wrote: "All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"
While I don't fully concur with a lot of the points you've brought up (or at least the reasoning behind some of them) this is one I can definitely get behind. The kind of subtle, simple-yet-effective design traits of the original Super Saiyan forms epitomizes Toriyama's style through and through, and Super's take more or less successfully continues that trend. The "lazy recolor" complaint mostly rings hollow anyway -- Super Saiyan God actually brings more alterations to Goku's appearance than most of his transformations, and Ultra Instinct's final design changed up the hair enough to stand out from its predecessors.

The color differentiation helps the newer forms to feel like a refreshing change of pace visually, not to mention that each of the three "main" ones (God, Blue, Ultra Instinct) brought something new to the table mechanically. I also appreciate their shared godly theme, which ties nicely into the larger overarching themes of Super and the 2013/2015 films. Still not really a fan of Blue Evolution or Rage at all, but the new forms as a whole have generally ranged from acceptable to fantastic. No major objections from me.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:42 am

While I maintain that Blue and God shouldn't have been split into two (my ideal would be to have Blue's hair colour combined with God's slimmed down look), the introduction of more unique Super Saiyan variants is a concept I actually like. By the end of it, just about every main Saiyan has their own unique ultimate form that reflects who they are as a character.

The only issue is in some of the executions. Goku gaining the ultimate martial arts form in Ultra Instinct while Vegeta gets the ultimate Super Saiyan form is an awesome idea because it gives them two distinct end-points intrinsic to their characters instead of locking them into an endless game of one-upmanship. It's just a shame the ultimate Super Saiyan form was a horrible sparkly mess.

Less egregious but still mismanaged was Trunks' Rage form, which was cool in concept but needed a bit more of an explanation and more time in the oven design-wise. Goku Black's Rose form was cool in concept and handled fairly well, Kale's berserk forms and Gohan's Ultimate form (which was more clearly defined in Super than it was in Z) were used to showcase their character development. All of the above were vague about how strong they actually were, but so long as they got the general point across it wasn't too big of an issue. I think the ideas behind most of Super's new forms were solid even if the executions weren't always up to snuff.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Doctor. » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 am

I'm going to reply to everything, even some stuff I generally agree with, because I find this entire post troubling. It shows a serious misunderstanding of criticisms attached to DBS and the reasons as to why Dragon Ball was good to begin with.
PFM18 wrote:"All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"
-The most iconic scene in the entire series is simply Goku changing the color of his hair from Black to Gold. Color changes being transformations is a core part of DB and DBS was just building on DBZ. And it isn't as though the colors don't mean anything, they represent a characteristic of the new form.

The transformations in DBS aren't any more lazy than any in DBZ. The only form that has real creativity in it's design is SSJ4. DBZ had a recolor, a change in hairstyle, and then the last transformaton was just turning the character into damn Rapunzel in having hair down to their ankles. There is nothing any more creative about the transformation in DBZ. You can barely even tell the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 sometimes. The forms in DBS had real meaning too.
People hate the transformations because they serve no purpose other than make certain characters so strong. The main 3 transformations in the original series helped complement the arc the character that got it was going through. Super Saiyan represented a turn in Goku's character, where he was consumed by rage and no longer himself (as stated by Kaio himself), illustrated by his closed eyes and his now angular, villain-like speech bubbles; Goku refusing to kill Freeza and giving him a chance to life shows him staying true to himself and overcoming his rage rather than give in. Super Saiyan 2 works largely the same but for Gohan instead. Super Saiyan 3 may not have any overt role in Goku's development in the Boo arc, subtextually, the fact that it leaves Goku fatigued and incapable of finishing a fight plays a role in the whole Goku is old and needs to pass the torch theme that the Boo arc revolves around. Even the other minor transformations have some subtle role in developing the characters.

Looking at Super, what does SSG serve? It had a purpose in Battle of Gods, it served Goku's arc in that film. In Super, though? It's just a way for Goku to get super strong. It was there because it was in Battle of Gods. If you want to reach, you can say it complements Beerus' arc in Super, but the same could have been done without SSG. Nothing about the specific properties of the SSG transformation was used creatively. The same with Blue. Evolution tries something but it's just a retread of something we've seen countless times before: Vegeta loves his family. Ultra Instinct is loved in spite of being "just a lazy recolor" specifically because it does something creative and plays a role in the arc of the characters involved with it.

I'm sure there are people that like SS/SS2/SS3 just because they're cool and offer a huge power boost, but that's not the reason why they work in the context of the stories they're in. Those transformations work because they have a purpose, because they further the development of the characters we've been following for hundreds of chapters.

A few more nitpicks on this point:
ALMOST A HUNDRED EPISODES PRIOR TO IT BEING ACHIEVED.
So was Super Saiyan.
It is creative because it is the first and only transformation that means something more than "Yeah dude like I'm faster and my punches hurt more." It isn't strictly a power boost.
Again, both Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 represented a change in personality and demeanor that the characters had to overcome in order to stay true to themselves.

And UI's dodging gimmick is portrayed in such an incompetent way in the Jiren fight, since Jiren pinballs Goku around without explanation.
"It had too many transformations! Transformation fatigue!"
Again, this ties in with the previous point. People complain about the huge number of forms because they seem to serve no purpose to the story besides making characters stronger and sell more toys. When a transformation serves a narrative purpose, like Ultra Instinct, people like it.
"The ToP was like 30 episodes but was supposed to only take 48 minutes! Plot hole! I can't take it seriously!"
I don't think I need to explain why this is a strawman, but I'll explain regardless: nobody thinks that the tournament taking 30 episodes is a plot hole. It's all about the execution. The tournament took too long because episodes were not structured properly. You'd have important fights take multiple episodes which would make people think it dragged on, while lesser fights got resolved in less than an episode. The fight against Jiren took 10 episodes, that's about a third of the arc. Furthermore, the pacing at the start was very fast, with multiple fights taking place in one episode, but by the time we got to the end, each fight got its own dedicated episode(s). The pacing was all over the place, that's what people complain about.
The Freeza "5 minutes" scene from DBZ is far more egregious than this.
And people complain and joke about it all the time.
"The power scaling is so bad! It doesn't make sense!"
Not gonna get into this argument again, but I'll just repeat myself for now: it's about the execution. Super's scaling problems are comparably worse than Z's. Nobody thinks Z's perfect.
"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"
Well, this is a personal rebuttal, but I personally thought the original series had too many tournaments as well. Regardless, Super's tournaments are much bigger in scale, which makes this a false equivalency. People complain about two tournaments in quick succession in Super because they throw away all the potential of world building and characterization that the expanded multiverse setting had.
but it is hypocritical to not apply the same logic to Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Vegeta as people do to Beerus.
I don't really care about this point, but nobody counts Beerus because he's not a Super-original character. He was in Battle of Gods already, where he was much less villainous.
"The ToP didn't feel like a Battle Royale at all! Character X and Y of Universe 7 were wasted! They were hyped up but didn't do anything!"

These criticisms each on their own make sense. But to criticize the ToP for both of these things is just irrational.
It's not. Again, it's about execution. You certainly can make a tournament with a large cast of characters and utilize them all properly while staying true to the setting. Other Shounen manage just fine, look at My Hero Academia's multiple tournaments. You don't need every character to eliminate someone for them to have a good showing, just have an engaging fight/character arc. You're just placing arbitrary limitations on what good utilization of characters means. The more that there is a Battle Royale aspect to the ToP the fewer opportunites that fan favorite characters have to shine and get eliminations themselves. Gohan was utilized very poorly in the ToP in spite of his multiple eliminations because his arc from the recruitment period went absolutely nowhere.

I think one of the major problems with this defense is that you constantly keep comparing it to Z. You don't try to argue how Super is good in its own merits, you try to argue how Super is, on certain points, equal to or superior than Z. Fair enough, detractors argue constantly how Super is inferior to Z (myself included, at times, including this post, but that's only because you brought up the original series first), but that doesn't mean Super can't be criticized on its own merits and flaws. If you keep comparing Super to Z, Super will fall short every time. That's because it doesn't build on any of the conventions and tropes of the previous series in any new or unique way, it just retreads the same ground while bumping the over-the-top nature and ridiculous spectacle up to 11. That doesn't wok. The Boo arc had already exhausted the series in terms of spectacle, it had already taken all its tropes to the breaking point, if that wasn't clear enough with the over-the-top nature of SS3 and fusion; the Boo arc was self-aware and self-referential to a point because it acknowledged how ridiculous it had gotten. That's why GT tried to dial it back down to a believable setting. And that's why Heroes embraces the spectacle and doesn't take itself seriously. But Super tries to have its cake and eat it too. It tries to go beyond what the Boo arc had accomplished while lacking the self-awareness that made the Boo arc work. It displays sprinkles of genius here and there (being completely self-aware about how insane Zamasu is, for instance), but it constantly indulges in its own ridiculous spectacle without the subtlety and nuance of the previous series. It certainly pulls from Dragon Ball's tropes and conventions, but the way it executes them is more akin to modern, lesser Shounen, as I've argued in the past, rather than Dragon Ball itself.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:26 pm

The fact that only Universe 7 erased universes in the ToP will always bother me,

I can't believe Funimation didn't even let the Pride Troopers cause the erasure of a universe.

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by Bergamo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:34 pm

The Monkey King wrote:The fact that only Universe 7 erased universes in the ToP will always bother me,

I can't believe Funimation didn't even let the Pride Troopers cause the erasure of a universe.
Funimation doesn't make DBS.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.

DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:34 pm

Bergamo wrote:
The Monkey King wrote:The fact that only Universe 7 erased universes in the ToP will always bother me,

I can't believe Funimation didn't even let the Pride Troopers cause the erasure of a universe.
Funimation doesn't make DBS.
*Toei animation

Come on man you knew what I meant :lol:

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Re: addressing some DBS criticism

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:39 pm

Doctor. wrote:People hate the transformations because they serve no purpose other than make certain characters so strong.
And that is perfectly fine for people to do that and people are entitled to their opinion. This is not the kind of thing that I wanted to address in this thread.
Looking at Super, what does SSG serve? It had a purpose in Battle of Gods, it served Goku's arc in that film. In Super, though? It's just a way for Goku to get super strong. It was there because it was in Battle of Gods
SSG is the tip of the iceberg as far as introducing the concept of God Ki and punching home the idea that this godly power is on an entirely new level. While in itself this concept may not be particularly compelling, it was the beginning of introducing the entire God hierarchy and the lore and world building that would follow.

But again, this is not the kind of thing that I wanted to address in this thread.
Again, both Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 represented a change in personality and demeanor that the characters had to overcome in order to stay true to themselves.

And UI's dodging gimmick is portrayed in such an incompetent way in the Jiren fight, since Jiren pinballs Goku around without explanation.
This change in character is kind of a stretch but that is kind of missing the point. The point I meant was speaking strictly in terms of combat. all of the SSJ didn't change any combat aspect other than making them stronger. No new technique, nothing particularly new at all. Self movement is new and creative.(Along with the focus on ki control but that isn't as tangible as this.)

There's no explanation needed. Ultra Instinct does not automatically make you invincible and impervious to any damage, that would ruin any tension or question of the outcome whatsoever. Jiren actually interestingly takes advantage of Goku's auto dodging in a couple interesting ways.
Again, this ties in with the previous point. People complain about the huge number of forms because they seem to serve no purpose to the story besides making characters stronger and sell more toys. When a transformation serves a narrative purpose, like Ultra Instinct, people like it.
You completely missed the point. The point isn't that people should arbitrarily like the transformations in DBS. The point is you can't just rip on DBS for having too many transformations and then turn around and not criticize DBZ for the same thing. Because, as I pointed out, they have the same number of transformations
This contradictory and hypocritical criticism is what I am addressing in this thread.
The tournament took too long because episodes were not structured properly. You'd have important fights take multiple episodes which would make people think it dragged on, while lesser fights got resolved in less than an episode. The fight against Jiren took 10 episodes, that's about a third of the arc. Furthermore, the pacing at the start was very fast, with multiple fights taking place in one episode, but by the time we got to the end, each fight got its own dedicated episode(s). The pacing was all over the place, that's what people complain about
Again, this is not what is being addressed. If you don't like the pacing then that's perfectly fine and you are entitled to your opinion.

The point is, that this criticism of the arc is simply a function of people not understanding the story being told. They are confused and rip the show based on their confusion. They claim it doesn't make sense for the Tournament to take place in 48 minutes when it took place over 35 episodes, but they just don't understand that this is a function of the events being shown sequentially when they are happening simultaneously In-Universe. There is so much happening at once they can't show it all at once. Additionally, the characters are literally travelling at the speed of light.
Well, this is a personal rebuttal, but I personally thought the original series had too many tournaments as well. Regardless, Super's tournaments are much bigger in scale, which makes this a false equivalency. People complain about two tournaments in quick succession in Super because they throw away all the potential of world building and characterization that the expanded multiverse setting had.
They are both tournaments that function very similarly in the story. To criticize DBS for it but not DB for it is hypocritical and contradictory is the point.
I think one of the major problems with this defense is that you constantly keep comparing it to Z. You don't try to argue how Super is good in its own merits, you try to argue how Super is, on certain points, equal to or superior than Z.
Yeah that is the entire purpose of this post. The purpose of this thread is not to say "DBS is a good series and here is why" or something like "DBS is better than DBZ and here's why!" The premise of this thread completely went over your head. The point is to shed light on the incredibly contradictory criticism directed at DBS. They don't apply the same logic to DBZ as they do to DBS. And some others are just showing that some of the criticism is just a function of people being confused and not understanding what they are watching.(The power scaling, the teaming up on Universe 7 and the time of the Tournament) In short, things like:

-People complaining about the quantity of the transformations when it has the same number as DBZ
-People complaining about recolors but the original SSJ is literally just changing his hair from Black to Blonde.
-People complaining about not enough conventional arcs with villains and too many tournament arcs when Dragon Ball had MORE tournaments.
-People not counting Beerus as a villain but simultaneously counting Tenshinhan, Piccolo and Vegeta. You can't just exclude Beerus because he turned "good" and turn around and not complain about the same thing happening in DB and DBZ.

These things are contradictory and that is the point of this thread. Along with showing that people not even understanding the show is also a huge source of a lot of criticism. I apologize for not making my central point more clear.

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