addressing some DBS criticism

[SupremeKai25]

"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"

I don't really see this is an issue, considering that the one arc that wasn't a tournament featured the most unique, complex and developed villain in the entire Dragon Ball series by far.

Ah you love your Zamasu.

I was more referring to people being contradictory in regards to not counting Beerus as a villain since he joined the squad and became "good" but completely disregard Vegeta, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo. I'm not stating my opinion or saying that I would prefer it one way or the other, I am just debunking their contradictory logic where they don't count Beerus. The truth of the matter is that there were 2 new villains and 1 returning villain in DBS rather than people claiming ridiculously that there was only one villain

It is easy to see why many don't see Beerus as a true villain. His motivation for destroying Earth was "Buu ate my pudding". Motivation is EVERYTHING to a villain. A villain with an extremely stupid and lame motivation will just be treated as a joke. You can write a villain who has no motivation and is just mindless, just look at Kid Buu, but if you want to write an intelligent and ominous villain who acts based on a certain motivation (this clear was the writers' intentions with Beerus), at least give them a LOGICAL motivation.

Let's put it this way, so we can satisfy everyone. There were 2 new villains in Super. But only one of them was well-written IN THE ROLE OF A VILLAIN.

And Yes, I do love Zamasu, He is my favourite character in the entire franchise. He made Super worth watching, at least for people like me who enjoy well-written, charismatic and mysterious villains. Most DBZ villains were pretty lame and basic, mostly just being evil and dicks because they could get away with it. Their goals weren't really that elaborate or relatable, aside maybe from Cell who wanted to "be perfect" (I am certain that we all want to be perfect), and even then once Cell became perfect he just turned into the classic evil character who just wants to scare the heck out of people and test his strength.

Plus, You know, I just love Zamasu's design and techniques, and his voice is so soothing, but that's not the point.

[supersaiyanZero]

I don't think the OP understands the criticism directed at Super in the first place.

In no particular order:

1- The writing is godawful. Characters are not written cohesively, act weirdly childish, and 80% of it is exposition. They also just rehash plot points from Z in A-B-C fashion, down to the fucking storyboards. It's just...really bad. Embarrassingly bad. Even the big bad of the series (Jiren) had zero anything going for him.

2- The art is awful as well. You can blame the production schedule, you can blame Toei - I don't care. Everything from the colors to the characters' poses to their bland expressions..awful. A lot of it is really shoddy and it's no surprise that the few highlights these show has image wise is due to the fact that it looks like Z on a good day. Takahashi was crowned the savior of this franchise because he literally threw out the character designs they were using and made his own...which looked like Z.

What it really boils down to is that Super is not a well written or constructed story filled with bland, one dimensional characters and slogs of ugly episodes you have to sit through all while missing the charm of the original in a BIG way.

[Doctor.]

This is not the kind of thing that I wanted to address in this thread.

But you're not actually addressing anything, though. You're just presenting the criticism yourself, you're not actually saying who is making these arguments. You're just saying "This is what DBS detractors say sucks about the show, and here is my rebuttal." Where are these complaints? I don't see them anywhere. You can't present strawmen and argue against them, I'm sure you realize that isn't how discourse works. What I'm arguing is that perhaps you were seriously misunderstanding what people complain about, mostly because I find these complaints, just like you, ridiculous, but I don't see anyone making them to begin with; I didn't shift the focus of the rebuttal for no reason.

They don't apply the same logic to DBZ as they do to DBS.

Maybe they're just not being unnecessarily reductionist. Just because two things seem superficially the same doesn't mean the execution was equally well-done; this is what I brought attention to in my reply multiple times. Case in point: the number of transformations. Maybe people notice the number of transformations in Super more because they serve comparably less of a purpose narratively than they do in Z. This is why it's not correct to point out one aspect of each show and equate them whilst ignoring context.

[PFM18]

But you're not actually addressing anything, though. You're just presenting the criticism yourself, you're not actually saying who is making these arguments. You're just saying "This is what DBS detractors say sucks about the show, and here is my rebuttal." Where are these complaints? I don't see them anywhere. You can't present strawmen and argue against them, I'm sure you realize that isn't how discourse works. What I'm arguing is that perhaps you were seriously misunderstanding what people complain about, mostly because I find these complaints, just like you, ridiculous, but I don't see anyone making them to begin with; I didn't shift the focus of the rebuttal for no reason.

These are very common criticisms that people have made towards DBS, things like this aren't as common on this site but they are all common things people say about DBS and they either ignore the fact that their logic is contradictory and/or their complaints are simply a result of not understanding the show. Criticisms that you laid out are not what I was trying to address, you are stating a perfectly reasonable opinion criticizing the show. That I have no problem with.

Maybe they're just not being unnecessarily reductionist. Just because two things seem superficially the same doesn't mean the execution was equally well-done; this is what I brought attention to in my reply multiple times. Case in point: the number of transformations. Maybe people notice the number of transformations in Super more because they serve comparably less of a purpose narratively than they do in Z. This is why it's not correct to point out one aspect of each show and equate them whilst ignoring context.

Discussing their place in terms of the narrative is just a completely different conversation that I am not addressing. If you argue that the transformations themselves weren't executed as well as it's predecessor then that is fair enough and something entirely different than criticizing it strictly in terms of the number of transformations. . Like how they count the number of transformations and include SSJ Rose and SSJ Berserk when they are simply forms possessed by antagonists and they don't include Freeza's forms, Cell's, or Buu's. Every main antagonist of DBZ had some transformation in some capacity. And yet people complain that Goku Black and Kale have their own transformations. It is ridiculous.

The point is I am not comparing the entire concept of transformations as a whole between the two series, I am just discussing the ridiculous logic when people talk about the laziness of the forms or the frequency of these forms. The transformations' place in the narrative and how they were executed and implemented in the story is something entirely different. This is not a matter of oversimplifying an aspect of the show because the purpose is not to address the aspect in a general sense.

"All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"

While I don't fully concur with a lot of the points you've brought up (or at least the reasoning behind some of them) this is one I can definitely get behind. The kind of subtle, simple-yet-effective design traits of the original Super Saiyan forms epitomizes Toriyama's style through and through, and Super's take more or less successfully continues that trend. The "lazy recolor" complaint mostly rings hollow anyway -- Super Saiyan God actually brings more alterations to Goku's appearance than most of his transformations, and Ultra Instinct's final design changed up the hair enough to stand out from its predecessors.

The color differentiation helps the newer forms to feel like a refreshing change of pace visually, not to mention that each of the three "main" ones (God, Blue, Ultra Instinct) brought something new to the table mechanically. I also appreciate their shared godly theme, which ties nicely into the larger overarching themes of Super and the 2013/2015 films. Still not really a fan of Blue Evolution or Rage at all, but the new forms as a whole have generally ranged from acceptable to fantastic. No major objections from me.

Well said. Toriyama's transformations are generally very simple this just fits his writing style. I agree with everything outside of the Blue Evolution complaint. Rage is shit but to me Evolution isn't.

[Bergamo]

But you're not actually addressing anything, though. You're just presenting the criticism yourself, you're not actually saying who is making these arguments. You're just saying "This is what DBS detractors say sucks about the show, and here is my rebuttal." Where are these complaints? I don't see them anywhere. You can't present strawmen and argue against them, I'm sure you realize that isn't how discourse works. What I'm arguing is that perhaps you were seriously misunderstanding what people complain about, mostly because I find these complaints, just like you, ridiculous, but I don't see anyone making them to begin with; I didn't shift the focus of the rebuttal for no reason.

These are very common criticisms that people have made towards DBS, things like this aren't as common on this site but they are all common things people say about DBS and they either ignore the fact that their logic is contradictory and/or their complaints are simply a result of not understanding the show. Criticisms that you laid out are not what I was trying to address, you are stating a perfectly reasonable opinion criticizing the show. That I have no problem with.

Maybe they're just not being unnecessarily reductionist. Just because two things seem superficially the same doesn't mean the execution was equally well-done; this is what I brought attention to in my reply multiple times. Case in point: the number of transformations. Maybe people notice the number of transformations in Super more because they serve comparably less of a purpose narratively than they do in Z. This is why it's not correct to point out one aspect of each show and equate them whilst ignoring context.

Discussing their place in terms of the narrative is just a completely different conversation that I am not addressing. If you argue that the transformations themselves weren't executed as well as it's predecessor then that is fair enough and something entirely different than criticizing it strictly in terms of the number of transformations. . Like how they count the number of transformations and include SSJ Rose and SSJ Berserk when they are simply forms possessed by antagonists and they don't include Freeza's forms, Cell's, or Buu's. Every main antagonist of DBZ had some transformation in some capacity. And yet people complain that Goku Black and Kale have their own transformations. It is ridiculous.

The point is I am not comparing the entire concept of transformations as a whole between the two series, I am just discussing the ridiculous logic when people talk about the laziness of the forms or the frequency of these forms. The transformations' place in the narrative and how they were executed and implemented in the story is something entirely different. This is not a matter of oversimplifying an aspect of the show because the purpose is not to address the aspect in a general sense.

SSROSE, and SSBERSERK are saiyan transformations. It's false equivalence to say they are the same as Cell and Buu's transformations. Too many transformations doesn't necessarily mean too many transformations for the narrative. It could mean that giving saiyans a new transformation for every color messes with saiyan lore.

[Master Xar]

But you're not actually addressing anything, though. You're just presenting the criticism yourself, you're not actually saying who is making these arguments. You're just saying "This is what DBS detractors say sucks about the show, and here is my rebuttal." Where are these complaints? I don't see them anywhere. You can't present strawmen and argue against them, I'm sure you realize that isn't how discourse works. What I'm arguing is that perhaps you were seriously misunderstanding what people complain about, mostly because I find these complaints, just like you, ridiculous, but I don't see anyone making them to begin with; I didn't shift the focus of the rebuttal for no reason.

These are very common criticisms that people have made towards DBS, things like this aren't as common on this site but they are all common things people say about DBS and they either ignore the fact that their logic is contradictory and/or their complaints are simply a result of not understanding the show. Criticisms that you laid out are not what I was trying to address, you are stating a perfectly reasonable opinion criticizing the show. That I have no problem with.

Maybe they're just not being unnecessarily reductionist. Just because two things seem superficially the same doesn't mean the execution was equally well-done; this is what I brought attention to in my reply multiple times. Case in point: the number of transformations. Maybe people notice the number of transformations in Super more because they serve comparably less of a purpose narratively than they do in Z. This is why it's not correct to point out one aspect of each show and equate them whilst ignoring context.

Discussing their place in terms of the narrative is just a completely different conversation that I am not addressing. If you argue that the transformations themselves weren't executed as well as it's predecessor then that is fair enough and something entirely different than criticizing it strictly in terms of the number of transformations. . Like how they count the number of transformations and include SSJ Rose and SSJ Berserk when they are simply forms possessed by antagonists and they don't include Freeza's forms, Cell's, or Buu's. Every main antagonist of DBZ had some transformation in some capacity. And yet people complain that Goku Black and Kale have their own transformations. It is ridiculous.

The point is I am not comparing the entire concept of transformations as a whole between the two series, I am just discussing the ridiculous logic when people talk about the laziness of the forms or the frequency of these forms. The transformations' place in the narrative and how they were executed and implemented in the story is something entirely different. This is not a matter of oversimplifying an aspect of the show because the purpose is not to address the aspect in a general sense.

SSROSE, and SSBERSERK are saiyan transformations. It's false equivalence to say they are the same as Cell and Buu's transformations. Too many transformations doesn't necessarily mean too many transformations for the narrative. It could mean that giving saiyans a new transformation for every color messes with saiyan lore.

SSJROSE came from an outside influence of the user not even truly being a saiyan, it’s in a sense a mutation form, if we’re counting outside influence forms we gotta count Majin Vegeta (SSJ1 and SSJ2) into the mix as well.

Trunks was a special case since he is a half-breed and under more abnormal circumstances.

[Doctor.]

Like how they count the number of transformations and include SSJ Rose and SSJ Berserk when they are simply forms possessed by antagonists and they don't include Freeza's forms, Cell's, or Buu's. Every main antagonist of DBZ had some transformation in some capacity. And yet people complain that Goku Black and Kale have their own transformations. It is ridiculous.

You're still not getting what I'm saying. Playing along, I'm saying that maybe people turn a blind eye to the bloated number of transformations in Z because they were, in their eyes, better executed, while they're quicker to point out the same "problem" in Super because it wasn't as well done. Is it fair? Probably not, but people do this all the time: they may ignore problems in one piece of material because that work had already proven itself to be good to them, so minor problems are more easily ignored; in contrast, minor problems will irk some people more if they come up in a piece of material that they consider bad. You'd have a better discussion trying to ascertain why people consider certain things better in Z to begin with, rather than try to claim that it's not fair they treat one series differently than the other.

Still, the comparisons you're making are absolutely reductionist because you're boiling things down to simple numbers while arguing against a strawman.

[PFM18]

You'd have a better discussion trying to ascertain why people consider certain things better in Z to begin with, rather than try to claim that it's not fair they treat one series differently than the other.

I know why certain things are better in Z and it is up to the individual what things are and aren't better in Z and vice versa. All I am asking is that people take an unbiased look at the two series and not contradict themselves in their criticisms. It appears that is asking way too much though.

[Bergamo]

These are very common criticisms that people have made towards DBS, things like this aren't as common on this site but they are all common things people say about DBS and they either ignore the fact that their logic is contradictory and/or their complaints are simply a result of not understanding the show. Criticisms that you laid out are not what I was trying to address, you are stating a perfectly reasonable opinion criticizing the show. That I have no problem with.



Discussing their place in terms of the narrative is just a completely different conversation that I am not addressing. If you argue that the transformations themselves weren't executed as well as it's predecessor then that is fair enough and something entirely different than criticizing it strictly in terms of the number of transformations. . Like how they count the number of transformations and include SSJ Rose and SSJ Berserk when they are simply forms possessed by antagonists and they don't include Freeza's forms, Cell's, or Buu's. Every main antagonist of DBZ had some transformation in some capacity. And yet people complain that Goku Black and Kale have their own transformations. It is ridiculous.

The point is I am not comparing the entire concept of transformations as a whole between the two series, I am just discussing the ridiculous logic when people talk about the laziness of the forms or the frequency of these forms. The transformations' place in the narrative and how they were executed and implemented in the story is something entirely different. This is not a matter of oversimplifying an aspect of the show because the purpose is not to address the aspect in a general sense.

SSROSE, and SSBERSERK are saiyan transformations. It's false equivalence to say they are the same as Cell and Buu's transformations. Too many transformations doesn't necessarily mean too many transformations for the narrative. It could mean that giving saiyans a new transformation for every color messes with saiyan lore.

SSJROSE came from an outside influence of the user not even truly being a saiyan, it’s in a sense a mutation form, if we’re counting outside influence forms we gotta count Majin Vegeta (SSJ1 and SSJ2) into the mix as well.

Trunks was a special case since he is a half-breed and under more abnormal circumstances.

In DragonBall transformations seemed to be a biological function(Frieza's forms, SS1), but people could train and push their body to their limit to get transformations(SS2,SS3,Piccolo's Giant Form). In Super Frieza and Black talk as if they chose to make up a new transformation. Frieza wanted to be gold, so he became Golden Frieza. Black wanted to look lavish, so he became Rosé. It seems much more random, and it's obvious that Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks are exactly the types of forms that sell merchandise.

You'd have a better discussion trying to ascertain why people consider certain things better in Z to begin with, rather than try to claim that it's not fair they treat one series differently than the other.

I know why certain things are better in Z and it is up to the individual what things are and aren't better in Z and vice versa. All I am asking is that people take an unbiased look at the two series and not contradict themselves in their criticisms. It appears that is asking way too much though.

I'm not biased just because I don't agree with you.

[Melkaniator]

I am going to address the faulty logic and biases behind a lot of these criticisms.

"All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"
-The most iconic scene in the entire series is simply Goku changing the color of his hair from Black to Gold. Color changes being transformations is a core part of DB and DBS was just building on DBZ.

Awful example, that was ONLY 1 change of color, plus the hair rised, it changed, it had to be drawn in a different manner, unlike the lazy "new" designs in DBS.

The transformations in DBS aren't any more lazy than any in DBZ.

False, and I already explained why.

You can barely even tell the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 sometimes.

With the exception of Vegeta, when it was done right, like in Goku's case, & Cell arc Gohan, you can see how different is SS2 to SS in design by a lot.

SSG - A legendary ritual that brings about the inception of God Ki

#1) The ritual is embarrassingly laughable.

#2) A transformation that to this day, doesn't make sense at all.

SSB - A combination of the user utilizing God Ki, controlling their ki to not allow it to leak their body, and combining that with Super Saiyan.

The design is DBS' worst, however the idea is fine, or it would if it wasn't because it evolves from a senseless form.

SSBE - Vegeta receives this form when his priorities shifted...

Nah, this one was pulled from his ***, they didn't even tried, is Vegeta's 1st senseless acquired form.

Ultra Instinct-This tranformation was foreshadowed ALMOST A HUNDRED EPISODES PRIOR TO IT BEING ACHIEVED.

Technically "foreshadowed".

The form was actually created by TOEI at the start of ToP idea, and not a moment earlier.

So, it wasn't a planned foreshadowing.

It is creative because it is the first and only transformation that means something more than "Yeah dude like I'm faster and my punches hurt more."

We can finally agree on something.

I recommend you watch MasakoX's videos on color theory because he explains it better than I ever could.

No, thanks, theories on this series are just people that see stuff that it's not there 98% of the time.

Plus, an explanation on why it looks that way doesn't automatically make the designs less lazy, not one bit.

"It had too many transformations! Transformation fatigue!"

The main cast of characters, Goku, Vegeta etc only actually received 4 new forms:

SSB
SSG
SSBE
UI

The same as DBZ:

SSJ
ASSJ
SSJ2
SSJ3

The comparison is unnecessary, the issue is that there are more than enough from DBZ to add even more.

Power boosts shouldn't need a new design, other anime do this without transformation, they just train and reach new heights.

"The ToP was like 30 episodes but was supposed to only take 48 minutes! Plot hole! I can't take it seriously!"

The time seeming off is simply a result of the show's sequence of events.

No, is not, the time-limit not only is senseless, is completely unnecessary, the result was just yet another inconsistency.

"The power scaling is so bad! It doesn't make sense!"

Sure, there are some power scaling inconsistencies, but not much more than in DBZ, if any more at all.

False, DBZ isn't perfect, but it was never THIS bad, nor this constant.

For example:

-Android 17 gaining a very large power boost prior to joining the ToP. We hadn't seen Android 17 for FOURTEEN YEARS prior to this point. Considering that he had never trained in DBZ, and it had been 14 years, it is not contradicting anything for him to gain an enormous power boost.

Nice, you started with THE worst example.

Lapis' boost doesn't make sense in ANY way, it contradicts everything.

Lapis, last time we saw him he was weaker than Imperfect Cell, Goku is a lot above that by the Cell arc, then he, not only a saiya-jin, but a prodigy, got SPECIAL training in the afterlife, he gets 2 transformations after that for Buu arc that made him be on a totally different level.

As if it wasn't enough, then he got SSG, that as we know made him way above those previous forms, then he got SSB by, again, SPECIAL training out of Earth with, most likely, U7 strongest being himself, Whis.

And, of course, Lapis, who doesn't keep contact with anyone besides barely #18, and only has Earth as his training ground, can reach a level to trade punches with SSB Goku.

-Freeza gaining a large boost in his 4 months training.

Akira explained the why, but it's clearly a lazy excuse to have Freezer be a worthy opponent again, it's preposterous to think Freezer would reach such levels at such a small quantity of time.

-Future Trunks being able to compete with Goku/Vegeta who had grown astronomically more powerful than their DBZ counterparts.

It isn't THAT bad in the manga at least.

"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"

The thing is, 131 episodes is a lot, to only have 1 new main villain.

[Master Xar]

SSROSE, and SSBERSERK are saiyan transformations. It's false equivalence to say they are the same as Cell and Buu's transformations. Too many transformations doesn't necessarily mean too many transformations for the narrative. It could mean that giving saiyans a new transformation for every color messes with saiyan lore.

SSJROSE came from an outside influence of the user not even truly being a saiyan, it’s in a sense a mutation form, if we’re counting outside influence forms we gotta count Majin Vegeta (SSJ1 and SSJ2) into the mix as well.

Trunks was a special case since he is a half-breed and under more abnormal circumstances.

In DragonBall transformations seemed to be a biological function(Frieza's forms, SS1), but people could train and push their body to their limit to get transformations(SS2,SS3,Piccolo's Giant Form). In Super Frieza and Black talk as if they chose to make up a new transformation. Frieza wanted to be gold, so he became Golden Frieza. Black wanted to look lavish, so he became Rosé. It seems much more random, and it's obvious that Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks are exactly the types of forms that sell merchandise.

You'd have a better discussion trying to ascertain why people consider certain things better in Z to begin with, rather than try to claim that it's not fair they treat one series differently than the other.

I know why certain things are better in Z and it is up to the individual what things are and aren't better in Z and vice versa. All I am asking is that people take an unbiased look at the two series and not contradict themselves in their criticisms. It appears that is asking way too much though.

I'm not biased just because I don't agree with you.

I thought we were excluding Freeza since he isn’t a saiyan? In that case pretty much all his other forms are mostly choice and made up, they are originally designed to hold back his real power in his true, final form, not the other way around, as for Golden it’s the same thing only this powers him up beyond his limits similar to a SSJ/real power up, which is why it’s Golden. You might have a point with Rosé, but again, it’s still an outside factor considering he’s a Kai and is far more naturally experienced with God Ki than Goku and Vegeta. And Toriyama said it himself, SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up versions of the Original SSJ1. Again, Rage has many outside factors to the form to consider, and we don’t know much about it. Giant Piccolo is literally just a big Piccolo.

[Master Xar]

I am going to address the faulty logic and biases behind a lot of these criticisms.

"All of the transformations are just lazy recolors!"
-The most iconic scene in the entire series is simply Goku changing the color of his hair from Black to Gold. Color changes being transformations is a core part of DB and DBS was just building on DBZ.

Awful example, that was ONLY 1 change of color, plus the hair rised, it changed, it had to be drawn in a different manner, unlike the lazy "new" designs in DBS.

The transformations in DBS aren't any more lazy than any in DBZ.

False, and I already explained why.

You can barely even tell the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 sometimes.

With the exception of Vegeta, when it was done right, like in Goku's case, & Cell arc Gohan, you can see how different is SS2 to SS in design by a lot.

SSG - A legendary ritual that brings about the inception of God Ki

#1) The ritual is embarrassingly laughable.

#2) A transformation that to this day, doesn't make sense at all.

SSB - A combination of the user utilizing God Ki, controlling their ki to not allow it to leak their body, and combining that with Super Saiyan.

The design is DBS' worst, however the idea is fine, or it would if it wasn't because it evolves from a senseless form.

SSBE - Vegeta receives this form when his priorities shifted...

Nah, this one was pulled from his ***, they didn't even tried, is Vegeta's 1st senseless acquired form.

Ultra Instinct-This tranformation was foreshadowed ALMOST A HUNDRED EPISODES PRIOR TO IT BEING ACHIEVED.

Technically "foreshadowed".

The form was actually created by TOEI at the start of ToP idea, and not a moment earlier.

So, it wasn't a planned foreshadowing.

It is creative because it is the first and only transformation that means something more than "Yeah dude like I'm faster and my punches hurt more."

We can finally agree on something.

I recommend you watch MasakoX's videos on color theory because he explains it better than I ever could.

No, thanks, theories on this series are just people that see stuff that it's not there 98% of the time.

Plus, an explanation on why it looks that way doesn't automatically make the designs less lazy, not one bit.

"It had too many transformations! Transformation fatigue!"

The main cast of characters, Goku, Vegeta etc only actually received 4 new forms:

SSB
SSG
SSBE
UI

The same as DBZ:

SSJ
ASSJ
SSJ2
SSJ3

The comparison is unnecessary, the issue is that there are more than enough from DBZ to add even more.

Power boosts shouldn't need a new design, other anime do this without transformation, they just train and reach new heights.

"The ToP was like 30 episodes but was supposed to only take 48 minutes! Plot hole! I can't take it seriously!"

The time seeming off is simply a result of the show's sequence of events.

No, is not, the time-limit not only is senseless, is completely unnecessary, the result was just yet another inconsistency.

"The power scaling is so bad! It doesn't make sense!"

Sure, there are some power scaling inconsistencies, but not much more than in DBZ, if any more at all.

False, DBZ isn't perfect, but it was never THIS bad, nor this constant.

For example:

-Android 17 gaining a very large power boost prior to joining the ToP. We hadn't seen Android 17 for FOURTEEN YEARS prior to this point. Considering that he had never trained in DBZ, and it had been 14 years, it is not contradicting anything for him to gain an enormous power boost.

Nice, you started with THE worst example.

Lapis' boost doesn't make sense in ANY way, it contradicts everything.

Lapis, last time we saw him he was weaker than Imperfect Cell, Goku is a lot above that by the Cell arc, then he, not only a saiya-jin, but a prodigy, got SPECIAL training in the afterlife, he gets 2 transformations after that for Buu arc that made him be on a totally different level.

As if it wasn't enough, then he got SSG, that as we know made him way above those previous forms, then he got SSB by, again, SPECIAL training out of Earth with, most likely, U7 strongest being himself, Whis.

And, of course, Lapis, who doesn't keep contact with anyone besides barely #18, and only has Earth as his training ground, can reach a level to trade punches with SSB Goku.

-Freeza gaining a large boost in his 4 months training.

Akira explained the why, but it's clearly a lazy excuse to have Freezer be a worthy opponent again, it's preposterous to think Freezer would reach such levels at such a small quantity of time.

-Future Trunks being able to compete with Goku/Vegeta who had grown astronomically more powerful than their DBZ counterparts.

It isn't THAT bad in the manga at least.

"There's no villains! Two of the arcs are tournament arcs!"

The thing is, 131 episodes is a lot, to only have 1 new main villain.

Awful example, that was ONLY 1 change of color, plus the hair rised, it changed, it had to be drawn in a different manner, unlike the lazy "new" designs in DBS.

and SSJG had far more changes than the Original SSJ
-the hair is slightly heightened on his head, it’s far more straightened and evenly curved, no loose hairs as opposed to base.
-Skin actually changes color
-slimmer and more lean muscles
-Proportions are lankier in the arms and legs, taller.
-face is younger
-Eyes gain pupils and change overall shape, they are far more round and soft, his angry or furrow brow expressions are less prominent.

SSJB serves it’s purpose and follows it’s description “a SSJG that turns SSJ.” That’s it’s description and that’s what it’s meant to do, it’s not trying to be something different. It’s noticeable change is that it’s skinnier than the original SSJ because of it’s preceding form SSJG’s slimness.

The other forms already have just as many changes if not more than SSJ1-3 or served their descriptions and weren’t trying to be some epic changes to the core design.

False, and I already explained why.

and that is false and I already explained why.

With the exception of Vegeta, when it was done right, like in Goku's case, & Cell arc Gohan, you can see how different is SS2 to SS in design by a lot.

there’s still a same difference if we aren’t counting Aura effects. And if we are, Super knocks it out of the park. At SSJ2 it’s literally SSJ, but spikier, and SSJ3 is SSJ2 with no eyebrows and longer hair. See how easy it is?

#1) The ritual is embarrassingly laughable.

Subjective. Vast Majority liked the Ritual and it served what it was, objectively there is nothing wrong with it. I could say the Goku twitching and growling in the Original SSJ was laughable, doesn’t deter how the transformation is executed from a critique standpoint.

#2) A transformation that to this day, doesn't make sense at all.

What part didn’t you get that was already told in the saga, going “it doesn’t make sense” without even saying why adds literally nothing to the discussion.

The design is DBS' worst, however the idea is fine, or it would if it wasn't because it evolves from a senseless form.

already explained above that it serves it’s design description. Do you expect him to have Tattoos? Sprout Wings? Get magical clothes out of nowhere? Because I really want to know what exactly you were expecting out of it.

Nah, this one was pulled from his ***, they didn't even tried, is Vegeta's 1st senseless acquired form.

“Nah, I’m going to say it’s bullshit, not going to say why it is, just cause I think it is.”

Technically "foreshadowed".

The form was actually created by TOEI at the start of ToP idea, and not a moment earlier.

So, it wasn't a planned foreshadowing.

Source? As far as I’m concerned and know you aren’t in that building to say. And I can say the same thing for SSJ and almost any other form in the series. In fact it’s hinted SSJ’s design may have been even LESS planned than UI since in an interview Toriyama said he only left SSJ uncolored to make less work on his assistant. As far as Toei they had the Lord Slug movie to throw in what Goku transformed into with “False SSJ”

The point is the concept was thought up far prior to the introduction, foreshadowing is foreshadowing. It seems you’re itching to take any points Super had for itself even if Z did literally the exact same thing if not worse.

No, thanks, theories on this series are just people that see stuff that it's not there 98% of the time.

Plus, an explanation on why it looks that way doesn't automatically make the designs less lazy, not one bit.

Dude you literally in the same comment came up with your own “theory” on UI’s design creation time.

Symbolism can add a lot to the significance of a story and design, any director worth their salt will tell you this.

The comparison is unnecessary, the issue is that there are more than enough from DBZ to add even more.

Power boosts shouldn't need a new design, other anime do this without transformation, they just train and reach new heights.

UI proves that wrong with its execution, there is no such thing as “too many transformation” outside of subjective opinion. There’s many variables, but it ultimately comes down to what purpose they serve and Super does there’s decently well. A physical change can represent a change in character very well. Objectively there is nothing wrong with transformations nor their quantity, in fact they are a plus if served well, even the best Shonen have it in SOME form or another like HxH (Godspeed and Adult Gon). It works especially well for Shonen and why it works so well. As Doctor said, the Original Super Saiyan was an iconic mark on Goku’s development.

Tell me one successful Shonen fighting manga/anime that has the main character in some form of another with 100 chapters/50 episodes that has ZERO physical change power-ups (yes this includes effects as well)

Once again this is another subjective point. I could literally say the same with Z and that any other transformation after 1 was too much.

The time seeming off is simply a result of the show's sequence of events.

As long is the time is moving progressively and there’s consistency to who is where at what times there is nothing wrong with it.

No, is not, the time-limit not only is senseless, is completely unnecessary, the result was just yet another inconsistency.

Senseless? No as stated above. Unnecessary? Maybe. Could be Toriyama and Toei parodying the 5 minutes on Namek. Inconsistency? No as my other point explained.

False, DBZ isn't perfect, but it was never THIS bad, nor this constant.

Buu arc dude, inconsistencies were all over the place early and late in the arc. Saiyan Saga had the Z Fighters get nearly 3x stronger than BOZ Goku under the SAME training he had for several years in Dragonball. In the Freeza arc, Goku magically recovers after SSJ just as much as US arc Goku, Gohan in the Cell arc did too. We have no idea why the Current Timeline Androids are stronger than the Future ones, just cause. This not even counting some of the things the original anime did

DBS really never got bad until the Black Arc and that was mostly just Trunks on his own and the US arc, and you can argue suppression for over half of them.

Nice, you started with THE worst example.

Lapis' boost doesn't make sense in ANY way, it contradicts everything.

Lapis, last time we saw him he was weaker than Imperfect Cell, Goku is a lot above that by the Cell arc, then he, not only a saiya-jin, but a prodigy, got SPECIAL training in the afterlife, he gets 2 transformations after that for Buu arc that made him be on a totally different level.

As if it wasn't enough, then he got SSG, that as we know made him way above those previous forms, then he got SSB by, again, SPECIAL training out of Earth with, most likely, U7 strongest being himself, Whis.

And, of course, Lapis, who doesn't keep contact with anyone besides barely #18, and only has Earth as his training ground, can reach a level to trade punches with SSB Goku.

Actually if anything that’s one of the lesser factors. We have literally no idea what happened to 17 between the Cell Saga and now. Half of what you said is generally a bunch of assumptions. We don’t know if he strictly stayed on Earth. We don’t know his training, we don’t know who he has grown to know in the past decade or so. We know jack. shit. About current 17 except that he is a park ranger and has a family.

We could flip the whole situation to if we followed 17 ever since the Cell Saga and how he had grown so strong through many sagas leading up to now, have SSJB come through Goku and learn his occupation and assume he has done fuck all besides manage a farm for the past decade.

It’s actually better than his introductory power as an Earth-made Android surpassing a supposed legend amongst a warrior race... in Z.

Akira explained the why, but it's clearly a lazy excuse to have Freezer be a worthy opponent again, it's preposterous to think Freezer would reach such levels at such a small quantity of time.

Once again offering nothing but subjectives. Objectively there is nothing wrong with the explanation, he has potential and he never trained, he was born powerful. It’s no better or worse than Zenkais for instance.

Ignoring everything else.


The entire point the OP is presenting is a bunch of Double Standards Z is held in comparison to Super. They both objectively flawed in their own ways, but they both need to be held to the same standards and looked at equally as what is done better and what is done worse. And if we look at it like that Super isn’t as far behind Z as you think.

[Bergamo]

SSJROSE came from an outside influence of the user not even truly being a saiyan, it’s in a sense a mutation form, if we’re counting outside influence forms we gotta count Majin Vegeta (SSJ1 and SSJ2) into the mix as well.

Trunks was a special case since he is a half-breed and under more abnormal circumstances.

In DragonBall transformations seemed to be a biological function(Frieza's forms, SS1), but people could train and push their body to their limit to get transformations(SS2,SS3,Piccolo's Giant Form). In Super Frieza and Black talk as if they chose to make up a new transformation. Frieza wanted to be gold, so he became Golden Frieza. Black wanted to look lavish, so he became Rosé. It seems much more random, and it's obvious that Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks are exactly the types of forms that sell merchandise.

I know why certain things are better in Z and it is up to the individual what things are and aren't better in Z and vice versa. All I am asking is that people take an unbiased look at the two series and not contradict themselves in their criticisms. It appears that is asking way too much though.

I'm not biased just because I don't agree with you.

I thought we were excluding Freeza since he isn’t a saiyan? In that case pretty much all his other forms are mostly choice and made up, they are originally designed to hold back his real power in his true, final form, not the other way around, as for Golden it’s the same thing only this powers him up beyond his limits similar to a SSJ/real power up, which is why it’s Golden. You might have a point with Rosé, but again, it’s still an outside factor considering he’s a Kai and is far more naturally experienced with God Ki than Goku and Vegeta. And Toriyama said it himself, SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up versions of the Original SSJ1. Again, Rage has many outside factors to the form to consider, and we don’t know much about it. Giant Piccolo is literally just a big Piccolo.

1. I excluded Frieza when talking about the NUMBER of Saiyan transformations. As far as the quality of transformations in Super compared to Z, anyone is fair game.
2. Does anything suggest that Frieza created forms to conceal his power? Zarbon likens Frieza's transformations to his own, which I interpreted as him saying that Frieza could use his other forms, but he just didn't want or need to. As for why he has so many, it's likely due to the fact that he's a freaky alien mutant.

[Master Xar]

In DragonBall transformations seemed to be a biological function(Frieza's forms, SS1), but people could train and push their body to their limit to get transformations(SS2,SS3,Piccolo's Giant Form). In Super Frieza and Black talk as if they chose to make up a new transformation. Frieza wanted to be gold, so he became Golden Frieza. Black wanted to look lavish, so he became Rosé. It seems much more random, and it's obvious that Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black and Super Saiyan Rage Trunks are exactly the types of forms that sell merchandise.

I'm not biased just because I don't agree with you.

I thought we were excluding Freeza since he isn’t a saiyan? In that case pretty much all his other forms are mostly choice and made up, they are originally designed to hold back his real power in his true, final form, not the other way around, as for Golden it’s the same thing only this powers him up beyond his limits similar to a SSJ/real power up, which is why it’s Golden. You might have a point with Rosé, but again, it’s still an outside factor considering he’s a Kai and is far more naturally experienced with God Ki than Goku and Vegeta. And Toriyama said it himself, SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up versions of the Original SSJ1. Again, Rage has many outside factors to the form to consider, and we don’t know much about it. Giant Piccolo is literally just a big Piccolo.

1. I excluded Frieza when talking about the NUMBER of Saiyan transformations. As far as the quality of transformations in Super compared to Z, anyone is fair game.
2. Does anything suggest that Frieza created forms to conceal his power? Zarbon likens Frieza's transformations to his own, which I interpreted as him saying that Frieza could use his other forms, but he just didn't want or need to. As for why he has so many, it's likely due to the fact that he's a freaky alien mutant.

1.) Okay then that’s fair game, but as far as that’s concerned, my original point still stands.

2.) well there is dialogue from Freeza is trying to be careful with his power as he is trying to torture them, not kill them in one strike, then there’s the fact that he has more manageable suppression in final form (1-50%) and that he has no stamina issues with the other forms, the only time he does is either in 100% and his Golden Form. And as you brought up Zarbon comparing his way of transforming to Freeza in the fact that in his final form he can’t hold back his power to a certain degree without being in a lesser form.

[Doctor.]

You'd have a better discussion trying to ascertain why people consider certain things better in Z to begin with, rather than try to claim that it's not fair they treat one series differently than the other.

I know why certain things are better in Z and it is up to the individual what things are and aren't better in Z and vice versa. All I am asking is that people take an unbiased look at the two series and not contradict themselves in their criticisms. It appears that is asking way too much though.

Everyone is biased; you're biased as well. Again, you're better off figuring out why those biases exist. If people are biased towards Z, maybe it deserves it.

[Melkaniator]

and SSJG had far more changes than the Original SSJ
-the hair is slightly heightened on his head, it’s far more straightened and evenly curved, no loose hairs as opposed to base.
-Skin actually changes color
-slimmer and more lean muscles
-Proportions are lankier in the arms and legs, taller.
-face is younger
-Eyes gain pupils and change overall shape, they are far more round and soft, his angry or furrow brow expressions are less prominent.

He looks younger, which is why the muscles aren't what they used to, that's connected as one, but whatever, you missed one...

...his boots transform!

(Well, just the 1st time, another inconsistency)

Yeah, I made a post about why SSG design is better than SSB on Dokkan wiki, if I find it I'll copy/paste it to you, if interested.

I'm not a fan of the look, but it's the decent one of the bunch, shame is the 2nd recolor, one was more than enough, after that it became a joke.

SSJB serves it’s purpose and follows it’s description “a SSJG that turns SSJ.” That’s it’s description and that’s what it’s meant to do, it’s not trying to be something different.

Clearly, lol.

Just a color-swap, easy merchandise.

and that is false and I already explained why.

Not really, but you made a valid point on SSG, I always say that's the only one decent design because it was some changes besides color, but I guess I skipped because the post was taking long and it forgot about it while responding.

At SSJ2 it’s literally SSJ, but spikier, and SSJ3 is SSJ2 with no eyebrows and longer hair. See how easy it is?

All I see is that you don't see the drastic changes, SS2 is not just spikier, the hair is drawn differently as a whole, specially Cell arc Gohan.

SS3 is a very drastic change from SS2.

Vast Majority liked the Ritual and it served what it was, objectively there is nothing wrong with it.

Everything is wrong with it, specially the part they provide godly ki out of their *****.

And you actually saw it as "vastly liked"?

We've hanged on different crowds I guess.

What part didn’t you get that was already told in the saga, going “it doesn’t make sense” without even saying why adds literally nothing to the discussion.

The post was long, I was just gonna get to that if someone seemed interested in knowing about it, it's already above, enjoy.

Actually, did I even really needed to say why it doesn't make sense?

Isn't obvious?

already explained above that it serves it’s design description. Do you expect him to have Tattoos? Sprout Wings? Get magical clothes out of nowhere? Because I really want to know what exactly you were expecting out of it.

^^^^^^^^
That was about me saying SSB is the worst of all.

How about anything that doesn't scream lazy?

How about anything besides a color-swap?

“Nah, I’m going to say it’s bullshit, not going to say why it is, just cause I think it is.”

Again?

It's in the episode, there's no explanation to my post necessary.

Vegeta just starts getting emotional and he pull out of his *** the form, similar to SS, but at least Goku had a zenkai moments before and saw his best friend die in front of him.

This one has Vegeta giving himself an emotional injection to push the form, empty, underwhelming, ridiculous.

I won't be surprised if this one doesn't came from Akira either, just like Trunks' SS BS.

Source? As far as I’m concerned and know you aren’t in that building to say.

I don't need to, if I posted that is because it was stated, but I'll admit I might've used the wrong source.

Because Hermes translation seems to show it was in fact by Akira, so unless I find some info, that's it.

And I can say the same thing for SSJ

You can, but in that case it would be false.

SS being not colored doesn't mean anything, it was still SS, Akira just took the chance to make his life easier with the specific design, the arc was to reach to that conclusion anyway.

It seems you’re itching to take any points Super had for itself even if Z did literally the exact same thing if not worse.

It's easy to see it that way if you're trying to defend it ALL of it, for example, bellow you defend the time given for the ToP, even though it was clearly an unnecessary mistake.

Dude you literally in the same comment came up with your own “theory” on UI’s design creation time.

False, there's no theory there, just an unreliable source.

UI proves that wrong with its execution

Not really, the result could've been the same without the "new" design.

I could literally say the same with Z and that any other transformation after 1 was too much.

And I would've agreed on that, even though I'm fine with at least 1 power up design beyond that as SS2, but SS3 was just too much IMHO.

As long is the time is moving progressively and there’s consistency to who is where at what times there is nothing wrong with it.

There's no consistency with the time given, so it's clearly a wrong move.

Senseless? No as stated above. Unnecessary? Maybe. Could be Toriyama and Toei parodying the 5 minutes on Namek. Inconsistency? No as my other point explained.

The inconveniency is still there, you can say "no" but it will remain there either way.

And the "5 minutes" in Nameku-sei is not inconsistent at all in the manga, there was stuff happening in whole different places, unlike the ToP.

I could however say that it was unnecessary that Akira had to give an specific time for the destruction of the planet.

Still, the one to set the time was Freezer, what makes him the expert?

Yeah, he has destroyed planets before, but not hold back like in this occasion, so if the planet destruction took 8 minutes one could say Freezer was a bit off, and that would be understandable.

ToP has "superior" beings watching the "clock" so there's no excuse.

Apples and oranges.

Long post already, Part. 2 coming soon.

[PFM18]

You'd have a better discussion trying to ascertain why people consider certain things better in Z to begin with, rather than try to claim that it's not fair they treat one series differently than the other.

I know why certain things are better in Z and it is up to the individual what things are and aren't better in Z and vice versa. All I am asking is that people take an unbiased look at the two series and not contradict themselves in their criticisms. It appears that is asking way too much though.

Everyone is biased; you're biased as well. Again, you're better off figuring out why those biases exist. If people are biased towards Z, maybe it deserves it.

What? Since when is everyone biased? And why would something be "deserving" of a biased viewpoint? If you are being biased that is irrespective of the quality of the works in question. There's no "deserving" a bias.

[Doctor.]

What? Since when is everyone biased? And why would something be "deserving" of a biased viewpoint? If you are being biased that is irrespective of the quality of the works in question. There's no "deserving" a bias.

Bias just means you have an inclination for something over something else; literally everyone is biased, no matter how unbiased you judge yourself to be. If people prefer Z so much that they treat Super "unfairly" (in your eyes; and I assume you can see how subjective this is), then you'd have a more productive discussion if you figured out why they prefer Z so much over Super, rather than try to claim they're biased for no reason.

[PFM18]

The same outline, yes, but not the same outline for the movie. The outlines for DBS were specifically written for DBS.

This isn't for "no reason" their argument contradicts itself. They criticize DBS without applying the same logic to DBZ. The fact that their logic is hypocritical shows how biased they are. It is that simple.

[Bergamo]

The same outline, yes, but not the same outline for the movie. The outlines for DBS were specifically written for DBS.

This isn't for "no reason" their argument contradicts itself. They criticize DBS without applying the same logic to DBZ. The fact that their logic is hypocritical shows how biased they are. It is that simple.

Who is they?