What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:11 am

Toriyama stated that after watching the Broly movies he will be "updated" by "rearranging some things" and adding a "new side" to his character while keeping his "classic image" for the fans sake.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Charlie_1981 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:41 am

It will be nice, that Broly has more uses after the movie, for example an inevitable meeting with Kale, more backstory on her, and maybe a legendary love between both Legendary Super Saiyans able to crossing Universes.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:09 am

Master Xar wrote:1.) apples and oranges. In the Android Arc Trunks’ help is far more second-hand and he doesn’t ask for how it went down, his struggles in the past and his training gave him the power to wreck the androids, not them directly coming to the future. Many things with Trunks in the Android Arc is far more roundabout and indirect as opposed to the many things that happen to Trunks in the FT arc was very direct and he has to face his problem and get stronger head-on
Him getting stronger head on would feel more genuine if the outline clearly wasn't playing him up as a second string plot instigator over the main player. For all the things the anime does to make Trunks look cool, it feels forced and ultimately pointless since they don't actually commit to the idea and Toriyama is clearly not interested in that direction for him. Surely Trunks should get Super Saiyan Blue during his initial trip back instead of just keeping 2 and then being an annoying gnat from the sidelines.
Master Xar wrote:2.) dramatic irony. We know that Babidi is somewhere out there along with Dabura. And as far as their arrival time, that’s just a result of unknown factor and variables that lead to them arriving later similar to how the present androids turned out stronger than the future versions through different unknown factors.
The difference is that we know at least some form of future events can happen to Trunks and we see them happening in the form of the present. As compared to an open ending in which they show that the story or events can continue on. The same could happen with Trunks. Leaving Babidi and Dabura still out there to kill or maim far more people out in space isn’t something I’m in favor of, not to mention it’s just boring to not have any actual future events we see in the current timeline resolved and feels “incomplete.”

And being that he doesn’t come back to the future isn’t proof that he is fine, especially if given that it’s fighting something or someone WAY out of his league like the actual Majin Buu arriving. That or it could mean he died and couldn’t make it out alive like how Black nearly killed him.
Can or could doesn't change the fact that in the original run Trunks' story was over, nobody ever sees him again in the years that follow because his story is over. If you want, you can twist it around to mean Majin Boo kills him off panel so of course he's not going back but Toriyama's original point for him is clear: he saved his world and lived happily ever after. It's only fan theory BS and the need to force things past their original intent that necessitates the twisting of the story's point to contrive new things afterwards.
Master Xar wrote:3.) and what does that have to do with Trunks? Why should I remotely care if we haven’t got connected to the gods yet? How is it Goku and Vegeta’s problem when it’s the gods’ problem to deal with it?And if by Gods you mean GoD, then that’s too far out of Goku and Vegeta’s current league to deal with and the villain is already far too strong/hax to deal with. And attacking Shin and the Kais is no big feat to be impressed about, they’ve long been surpassed, the only impressive Kai in recent years was Zamasu and he is still barely Post-god SSJ2 level. And Shin and Old Kai aren’t that close to Goku and Co. to begin with.

If you’re throwing out Trunks, you’re throwing out the personal stakes and investment of the storyline as well in that they need to help out Future Trunks as they know him personally, especially Vegeta.and have to work from scratch, you can’t just throw a plot or concept at the characters and go “look at how new and non-old this concept is” the characters being %100 not involved in any past events or reason to do what they are doing or are able to abandon the plot at any time.

You have to give the characters ambition and a reason to go on in the plot and do what they do throughout it or it’ll get stale and uninvesting real quick. Having the characters be heroes and get involved in nonsense that has nothing to do with them personally is a pit amateur writers fall into all the time, not giving the characters personal drive and ambition and focusing on the concept is a great way to kill a story quick. not to mention its not Dragonball-like at all to do that.
Haven't you gotten connected to Beerus or Whis yet? Or to Shin and Old Kaioshin? Goku and Vegeta would care if any one of them suddenly was killed, especially if it affected Beerus and Whis which it would given the whole "If a Kaioshin dies, the Hakaishin connected to them dies too". Not only would seeing the two strongest people from U7 suddenly drop dead immediately shock both the characters and audience, but would also create a great narrative hook for the mystery. How is this happening, is it just here, how are they going to figure it out?

One of the driving ambitions of the two main characters is to eventually surpass Beerus, having him suddenly die on them would prompt an emotional reaction and investment from everyone in and out of universe. To say otherwise is absolute lunacy. Also, how is beating on Trunks impressive but somehow Shin dying is too banal when Trunks was fodder in his last appearance?
Master Xar wrote:5.) the difference with that and Gohan is all in the “why” and the circumstances. Gohan’s entire journey in Z is that he has big shoes to fill and has to stand up to odds at his young age he shouldn’t be dealing with, and doesn’t enjoy it like Goku did as a kid. He has do it to protect his world and his friends, it’s all in what he has to do and what he gets out of it. Having Trunks be a forced into the Time Cop role is uninvesting if he doesn’t have a reason, circumstance, or drive to be there. You can replace him with literally any other character and it wouldn’t change a thing. He has no reason to even like being a Time Cop or wasn’t hinted to even like doing it at all.
Xenoverse fell into that trap and that’s easily my least favorite Trunks because it is so forced... and not to mention it really only bogged down to him getting that role is almost generalizing the character. It’s “Trunks = Timey Wimey” because he did time travel once...
Trunks does have a circumstance that puts him in the Time Cop position, he broke a universal rule (something even Super points out in both the anime and the manga) and has to work to fix it. Now, they ruin this by saying the Supreme Kai of Time really just wanted a friend, because Dragon Ball Gods can't not be selfish, incompetent morons, but the conceit is there: he's put in a situation beyond his control and has to make it work.
Master Xar wrote:6.) History can repeat itself in many ways, but I personally like how they did it as it adds context to how they would be if the roles were completely different as well as how the situation plays out. Goku was able to win as the big, strong, superior fighter out for revenge is because he holds himself back to think clearly in his fight with Freeza to win he does it all quick and doesn’t aim to draw anything out too much even if he currently hated Freeza with a passion. If given the chance he’d train and prepare to take down Freeza had he escaped or left in some form.
Freeza here in ROF is impatient and dives far too deep in his revenge and sadism and is completely blinded by his own rage and hatred to think clearly like Goku was on Namek. He has the exact same problems as Pre-mastery SSJ Goku has because of his own hubris to not train it where he had all the time to prepare unlike Goku who couldn’t get that privilege.

And as for the role of defensive survivor/challenger it was all in how their characters are and how they succeed/fail in their role. Goku doesn’t mind having someone be stronger than them, he doesn’t get upset when someone usurps or surpasses him in strength, his pride doesn’t get hurt even when he hears about how Freeza’s massive potential and his incredible rise in strength in 4 months, he is secure, calm, and confident in his own power to think clearly and outsmart Freeza by taking advantage of the flaws of his form, like how he has flaws as a character. He successfully defends himself from his challenger: Freeza
This contrasts how Freeza on Namek was presented the same situation. He doesn’t like the challenge, he spends his life in fear and paranoia of a rival to his strength, that’s what leads to him personally wanting to destroy the saiyans. He is insecure of his own power, irrational, and not confident in his own power from personal investment in it or having to use it in an even or fair fight, he uses it to dominate or crush them. He isn’t able to think clearly and is unable to compensate with a strategy or a way to work out his problem unlike Goku in ROF.

I feel it contextualizes the characters and their flaws rather well. You can disagree and say it’s boring, but at the end of the day that’s just subjective and left to opinion. ROF has a purpose and vision, it fulfills it’s objective.

That’s another trap that writers fall into. No one conversation, acknowledgement of their flaw, or realization of their flaw is instantly going to mean they have to develop, they need compromises and progression. Just like you can’t tell a depressed person to “get over it” and suddenly they’re all sunshine and rainbows, you can’t have a character just BAM they’re all good now from one event, it’s artificial and too quick,especially if that event hold no weight to hold itself under and is central to who they are as a person. Learning and developing is a process, not an event.

That’s the rushed and wrong way to do character development...
F has a purpose, it's just a pointless one I feel for a multitude of reasons. I don't know why this is a story we're even telling, first and foremost. It doesn't advance the multiverse concept at all, if anything it does that annoying Dragon Ball thing of shrinking things back down and the one addition it makes, Super Saiyan Blue, can easily get introduced in U6 without a fuss.

It doesn't advance the characters. Goku's entire arc from the last movie was a reminder of what both Roshi and Popo taught him: someone tougher will always be there so don't get cocky. F ignores this and keeps Goku cocky and Super's arcs follow this as well, except it's even more random later on when Goku goes from either pointlessly holding back to pointlessly going overkill against his opponents.

Vegeta's flaw is the same way, he can't work with Goku because we've got to ignore a pivotal character moment of his from the Boo arc. It's not like Vegeta doesn't have personality issues in other places for Whis to point out like his bad temper or arrogance. But we've got to keep Goku & Vegeta in some tenuous not quite friendship position so Vegeta can shout about KAKAKROTTO! being more sugoi than him for a while longer.

Freeza is the biggest sore thumb out of the three of them. The movie wants to use him and his golden form as a way of saying superficially changing yourself only leads to failure. The problem with this lies in a couple places. One, using Golden Freeza as a visual condemnation of superficially changing yourself when SSBlue is just SS but Blue doesn't work for obvious reasons. Secondly, Goku and Vegeta's flaws were already sorted out in big, meaningful ways in the last two chronological stories and forcing those back obviously sticks out negatively, then the two them laugh off the idea of learning anything from the whole experience and we're left at the end with nothing meaningfully changing for anyone or anything.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Master Xar » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:23 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Master Xar wrote:1.) apples and oranges. In the Android Arc Trunks’ help is far more second-hand and he doesn’t ask for how it went down, his struggles in the past and his training gave him the power to wreck the androids, not them directly coming to the future. Many things with Trunks in the Android Arc is far more roundabout and indirect as opposed to the many things that happen to Trunks in the FT arc was very direct and he has to face his problem and get stronger head-on
Him getting stronger head on would feel more genuine if the outline clearly wasn't playing him up as a second string plot instigator over the main player. For all the things the anime does to make Trunks look cool, it feels forced and ultimately pointless since they don't actually commit to the idea and Toriyama is clearly not interested in that direction for him. Surely Trunks should get Super Saiyan Blue during his initial trip back instead of just keeping 2 and then being an annoying gnat from the sidelines.
Master Xar wrote:2.) dramatic irony. We know that Babidi is somewhere out there along with Dabura. And as far as their arrival time, that’s just a result of unknown factor and variables that lead to them arriving later similar to how the present androids turned out stronger than the future versions through different unknown factors.
The difference is that we know at least some form of future events can happen to Trunks and we see them happening in the form of the present. As compared to an open ending in which they show that the story or events can continue on. The same could happen with Trunks. Leaving Babidi and Dabura still out there to kill or maim far more people out in space isn’t something I’m in favor of, not to mention it’s just boring to not have any actual future events we see in the current timeline resolved and feels “incomplete.”

And being that he doesn’t come back to the future isn’t proof that he is fine, especially if given that it’s fighting something or someone WAY out of his league like the actual Majin Buu arriving. That or it could mean he died and couldn’t make it out alive like how Black nearly killed him.
Can or could doesn't change the fact that in the original run Trunks' story was over, nobody ever sees him again in the years that follow because his story is over. If you want, you can twist it around to mean Majin Boo kills him off panel so of course he's not going back but Toriyama's original point for him is clear: he saved his world and lived happily ever after. It's only fan theory BS and the need to force things past their original intent that necessitates the twisting of the story's point to contrive new things afterwards.
Master Xar wrote:3.) and what does that have to do with Trunks? Why should I remotely care if we haven’t got connected to the gods yet? How is it Goku and Vegeta’s problem when it’s the gods’ problem to deal with it?And if by Gods you mean GoD, then that’s too far out of Goku and Vegeta’s current league to deal with and the villain is already far too strong/hax to deal with. And attacking Shin and the Kais is no big feat to be impressed about, they’ve long been surpassed, the only impressive Kai in recent years was Zamasu and he is still barely Post-god SSJ2 level. And Shin and Old Kai aren’t that close to Goku and Co. to begin with.

If you’re throwing out Trunks, you’re throwing out the personal stakes and investment of the storyline as well in that they need to help out Future Trunks as they know him personally, especially Vegeta.and have to work from scratch, you can’t just throw a plot or concept at the characters and go “look at how new and non-old this concept is” the characters being %100 not involved in any past events or reason to do what they are doing or are able to abandon the plot at any time.

You have to give the characters ambition and a reason to go on in the plot and do what they do throughout it or it’ll get stale and uninvesting real quick. Having the characters be heroes and get involved in nonsense that has nothing to do with them personally is a pit amateur writers fall into all the time, not giving the characters personal drive and ambition and focusing on the concept is a great way to kill a story quick. not to mention its not Dragonball-like at all to do that.
Haven't you gotten connected to Beerus or Whis yet? Or to Shin and Old Kaioshin? Goku and Vegeta would care if any one of them suddenly was killed, especially if it affected Beerus and Whis which it would given the whole "If a Kaioshin dies, the Hakaishin connected to them dies too". Not only would seeing the two strongest people from U7 suddenly drop dead immediately shock both the characters and audience, but would also create a great narrative hook for the mystery. How is this happening, is it just here, how are they going to figure it out?

One of the driving ambitions of the two main characters is to eventually surpass Beerus, having him suddenly die on them would prompt an emotional reaction and investment from everyone in and out of universe. To say otherwise is absolute lunacy. Also, how is beating on Trunks impressive but somehow Shin dying is too banal when Trunks was fodder in his last appearance?
Master Xar wrote:5.) the difference with that and Gohan is all in the “why” and the circumstances. Gohan’s entire journey in Z is that he has big shoes to fill and has to stand up to odds at his young age he shouldn’t be dealing with, and doesn’t enjoy it like Goku did as a kid. He has do it to protect his world and his friends, it’s all in what he has to do and what he gets out of it. Having Trunks be a forced into the Time Cop role is uninvesting if he doesn’t have a reason, circumstance, or drive to be there. You can replace him with literally any other character and it wouldn’t change a thing. He has no reason to even like being a Time Cop or wasn’t hinted to even like doing it at all.
Xenoverse fell into that trap and that’s easily my least favorite Trunks because it is so forced... and not to mention it really only bogged down to him getting that role is almost generalizing the character. It’s “Trunks = Timey Wimey” because he did time travel once...
Trunks does have a circumstance that puts him in the Time Cop position, he broke a universal rule (something even Super points out in both the anime and the manga) and has to work to fix it. Now, they ruin this by saying the Supreme Kai of Time really just wanted a friend, because Dragon Ball Gods can't not be selfish, incompetent morons, but the conceit is there: he's put in a situation beyond his control and has to make it work.
Master Xar wrote:6.) History can repeat itself in many ways, but I personally like how they did it as it adds context to how they would be if the roles were completely different as well as how the situation plays out. Goku was able to win as the big, strong, superior fighter out for revenge is because he holds himself back to think clearly in his fight with Freeza to win he does it all quick and doesn’t aim to draw anything out too much even if he currently hated Freeza with a passion. If given the chance he’d train and prepare to take down Freeza had he escaped or left in some form.
Freeza here in ROF is impatient and dives far too deep in his revenge and sadism and is completely blinded by his own rage and hatred to think clearly like Goku was on Namek. He has the exact same problems as Pre-mastery SSJ Goku has because of his own hubris to not train it where he had all the time to prepare unlike Goku who couldn’t get that privilege.

And as for the role of defensive survivor/challenger it was all in how their characters are and how they succeed/fail in their role. Goku doesn’t mind having someone be stronger than them, he doesn’t get upset when someone usurps or surpasses him in strength, his pride doesn’t get hurt even when he hears about how Freeza’s massive potential and his incredible rise in strength in 4 months, he is secure, calm, and confident in his own power to think clearly and outsmart Freeza by taking advantage of the flaws of his form, like how he has flaws as a character. He successfully defends himself from his challenger: Freeza
This contrasts how Freeza on Namek was presented the same situation. He doesn’t like the challenge, he spends his life in fear and paranoia of a rival to his strength, that’s what leads to him personally wanting to destroy the saiyans. He is insecure of his own power, irrational, and not confident in his own power from personal investment in it or having to use it in an even or fair fight, he uses it to dominate or crush them. He isn’t able to think clearly and is unable to compensate with a strategy or a way to work out his problem unlike Goku in ROF.

I feel it contextualizes the characters and their flaws rather well. You can disagree and say it’s boring, but at the end of the day that’s just subjective and left to opinion. ROF has a purpose and vision, it fulfills it’s objective.

That’s another trap that writers fall into. No one conversation, acknowledgement of their flaw, or realization of their flaw is instantly going to mean they have to develop, they need compromises and progression. Just like you can’t tell a depressed person to “get over it” and suddenly they’re all sunshine and rainbows, you can’t have a character just BAM they’re all good now from one event, it’s artificial and too quick,especially if that event hold no weight to hold itself under and is central to who they are as a person. Learning and developing is a process, not an event.

That’s the rushed and wrong way to do character development...
F has a purpose, it's just a pointless one I feel for a multitude of reasons. I don't know why this is a story we're even telling, first and foremost. It doesn't advance the multiverse concept at all, if anything it does that annoying Dragon Ball thing of shrinking things back down and the one addition it makes, Super Saiyan Blue, can easily get introduced in U6 without a fuss.

It doesn't advance the characters. Goku's entire arc from the last movie was a reminder of what both Roshi and Popo taught him: someone tougher will always be there so don't get cocky. F ignores this and keeps Goku cocky and Super's arcs follow this as well, except it's even more random later on when Goku goes from either pointlessly holding back to pointlessly going overkill against his opponents.

Vegeta's flaw is the same way, he can't work with Goku because we've got to ignore a pivotal character moment of his from the Boo arc. It's not like Vegeta doesn't have personality issues in other places for Whis to point out like his bad temper or arrogance. But we've got to keep Goku & Vegeta in some tenuous not quite friendship position so Vegeta can shout about KAKAKROTTO! being more sugoi than him for a while longer.

Freeza is the biggest sore thumb out of the three of them. The movie wants to use him and his golden form as a way of saying superficially changing yourself only leads to failure. The problem with this lies in a couple places. One, using Golden Freeza as a visual condemnation of superficially changing yourself when SSBlue is just SS but Blue doesn't work for obvious reasons. Secondly, Goku and Vegeta's flaws were already sorted out in big, meaningful ways in the last two chronological stories and forcing those back obviously sticks out negatively, then the two them laugh off the idea of learning anything from the whole experience and we're left at the end with nothing meaningfully changing for anyone or anything.
1.) Being the strongest as of being the central focus =/= better focus. His sideline serves as a point to his flaw as a character, that he runs away from his problems as to not take point as the leader or the strongest. He is seeking the past to fix his problems in the future, he lacks will outside of his need to protect the future. He is in that secondary role because he put himself there in the first place, and that as he comes into his own he can stand on his own two feet without looking like “the sideline”


2.) You’re missing the point. As long as Dragonball’s current timeline and problems continue on and as long as evil forces roam the universe. Trunks future will retrospectively have them as well in some form of another, and with that the potential for his story will continue as well. There is nothing inherently wrong with using him again for a new story arc. You can’t just throw him into a random role after all the events that happen and just skip over it with “lol that didn’t happen to me bro.” Not only is that arbitrary and stupid, it’s anticlimactic and boring.

As far as Original Intent. So what? Toriyama found room to do more with Trunks than to just finish his story. Is there some sort of hidden rule on continuing or changing intentions?

3.) I like Beerus and Whis as characters not people. You aren’t seeing the relationship from Vegeta or Goku’s perspectives and the context. Beerus has been nothing but a complete asshole to them, outside of the mutual respect as warriors he isn’t a friend. He gives them the benefits of god training, but it’s a business transaction as they give him food. Other than that, Beerus when he first met them both in BOG, Beerus beat the shot out of their actual friends and family, and barely even apologizes, even in Super when he doesn’t do it at all and just faked going to sleep rather than admit to letting them go and saying sorry.
As far as Vegeta’s childhood he forced his father underneath his boot over a pillow and temporary paralyzed him when he only stood up for himself and his father. He then goes on to be a complete non-help outside of his attendant, Whis, to actually give a damn and help them out with Freeza. Then later goes on to force them into a tournament to which their Earths could be switched (in what way depends on the wording of the wish) over some petty argument of food, it’s even lampshaded they are pawns in a game here.

Beerus has no ground to stand on as someone Goku and especially Vegeta wouldn’t lose sleep over. They may grieve and show respect as fighters/martial artists and be pissed at their missed chance for a rematch, but they aren’t going to go on a personal manhunt over them.

Supreme Kai and Old Kai, have literally zero history with them outside of maybe a few lines of dialogue and remote encounters, they have zero relationships as far as even respect goes let alone liking them. The won’t really be that personally invested if they die either.
It’s not their fight to get involved in. You are basing your liking of the characters and equating it to Goku and Vegeta liking them.

Also I thought we were judging your idea as standalone, not with the concept already in the arc like the “God death/Angel Inactivity Proxy” idea.

5.) And again. I can replace him with literally any other character or even a new one and it doesn’t change a thing. The concept isn’t bad, it’s putting Trunks in there as forced is just that. Forced. He has no big shoes to fill like Gohwn does to Goku. Supreme Kai of Time has no established power or control over him, he is just there and goes along with it for no reason other than it’s “Da rulez.” Nothing is personally or forcefully keeping him there so why the hell is he even bothering to be there?
It’s not Supreme Kai of Time wanting a friend that’s the problem, it’s literally just Trunks being a Time Cop cuz reasons.

6.) i’d recommend my view topic on the changes here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42308

Why does it need a “point?” that’s not what it’s going for or anything to judge the merits of the story and it’s objective for. You can say it needs a point or needs to include more concepts all you want, but at the end of the day that’s really only subjective opinions on what it “should’ve” been.

Again you keep having these characters instantly develop from one event without looking into the compromises and progression of that development. Plus you aren’t looking into the context of the lesson they meant. Complacency. Goku has never been cocky in the sense that he thinks his power is satisfactory to where he flat-out stops training like Gohan. He is only confident in battle and that’s how he generally always is, he is invested in his own strength. He is confident in his power, not arrogant or cocky, big difference.

You’re oversimplifying the context and not looking at the circumstance and compromise of the characters. Goku and Vegeta only worked together in the fight against Kid Buu when they absolutely needed to, they were all for taking turns. Their flaw lies in the fact that if they were willing to work with each other under lesser circumstances and their current compromise as Whis’ lesson suggests is to only work with each other only when absolutely necessary as their saiyan blood drives them to fight one-on-one battles. The point to developing a character has to have again, a purpose, development doesn’t equal good
writing. If that’s the case Kale is a well written character because she develops.

The goal of development isn’t to weed out all the flaws of a character and kill it, but to nuance them as characters and their development to serve the story and it’s central theme if that’s what it’s going for


Again that’s not the theme of lesson that’s not what it’s trying to do. “Superficially changing yourself” isn’t the theme because there isn’t one, or as you call it is to call into question their flaws and how they bounce off each other in their different/switched roles Read my thread for more info, but again you are completely missing the point of ROF’s objective of what it’s trying to do instead of judging it on that for flawed aspects of “good writing” and trying to bounce around original ideas without looking at the execution to making them work.

The way you look at ROF and it’s reason for existing isn’t calling out how it fails to do what it’s trying to do and being objective, but rather to fault it for being “pointless and unoriginal.” And that’s not being fair to it.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:12 pm

Master Xar wrote:1.) Being the strongest as of being the central focus =/= better focus. His sideline serves as a point to his flaw as a character, that he runs away from his problems as to not take point as the leader or the strongest. He is seeking the past to fix his problems in the future, he lacks will outside of his need to protect the future. He is in that secondary role because he put himself there in the first place, and that as he comes into his own he can stand on his own two feet without looking like “the sideline”
I didn't say he had to be strongest, only that I feel like the anime tried to make a point to Trunks being there as a plot device by bringing up the idea of him being strong enough to take care of himself. Which they don't fullfill well as you can tell they desperately want him to train his ass off and get Blue but doesn't then they give him a sort of Blue form that's ultimately still weaker than anything the antagonists can throw at him.
I will say that I think you're wording Trunks problem poorly, reading this part, I don't think you get that Trunks isn't running away because he's a coward: he has no other choice. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, he has far less avenues to realistically improve himself and he tries for an entire year to defeat Black on his own, it's only when it gets supremely dire that he retreats into the past. His will to defend the future IS his driving force, not a weakness, he's an actual altruistic character which is a stark contrast to his dad and Goku who are primarily led by their desire for a good fight.
Master Xar wrote:2.) You’re missing the point. As long as Dragonball’s current timeline and problems continue on and as long as evil forces roam the universe. Trunks future will retrospectively have them as well in some form of another, and with that the potential for his story will continue as well. There is nothing inherently wrong with using him again for a new story arc. You can’t just throw him into a random role after all the events that happen and just skip over it with “lol that didn’t happen to me bro.” Not only is that arbitrary and stupid, it’s anticlimactic and boring.

As far as Original Intent. So what? Toriyama found room to do more with Trunks than to just finish his story. Is there some sort of hidden rule on continuing or changing intentions?
Usually, changing the intent should be done with a purpose and justify itself thanks to its execution. The Future Trunks arc does neither, it soft reboots everything Trunks did by saying it didn't ultimately matter and then fails to deliver a satisfying story from beginning to end, doing a good job for the first two third before giving up from Episode 61 onwards.

If the Future Trunks arc stayed good from beginning to end, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me concerning the rehashe feeling present with the premise. It would be a wort on an otherwise good product, but with the arc going as it did, it only adds to my issues.
Master Xar wrote:3.) I like Beerus and Whis as characters not people. You aren’t seeing the relationship from Vegeta or Goku’s perspectives and the context. Beerus has been nothing but a complete asshole to them, outside of the mutual respect as warriors he isn’t a friend. He gives them the benefits of god training, but it’s a business transaction as they give him food. Other than that, Beerus when he first met them both in BOG, Beerus beat the shot out of their actual friends and family, and barely even apologizes, even in Super when he doesn’t do it at all and just faked going to sleep rather than admit to letting them go and saying sorry.
As far as Vegeta’s childhood he forced his father underneath his boot over a pillow and temporary paralyzed him when he only stood up for himself and his father. He then goes on to be a complete non-help outside of his attendant, Whis, to actually give a damn and help them out with Freeza. Then later goes on to force them into a tournament to which their Earths could be switched (in what way depends on the wording of the wish) over some petty argument of food, it’s even lampshaded they are pawns in a game here.

Beerus has no ground to stand on as someone Goku and especially Vegeta wouldn’t lose sleep over. They may grieve and show respect as fighters/martial artists and be pissed at their missed chance for a rematch, but they aren’t going to go on a personal manhunt over them.

Supreme Kai and Old Kai, have literally zero history with them outside of maybe a few lines of dialogue and remote encounters, they have zero relationships as far as even respect goes let alone liking them. The won’t really be that personally invested if they die either.
It’s not their fight to get involved in. You are basing your liking of the characters and equating it to Goku and Vegeta liking them.

Also I thought we were judging your idea as standalone, not with the concept already in the arc like the “God death/Angel Inactivity Proxy” idea.
We're actually in agreement for once, I do NOT like how everyone acts buddy buddy with Beerus and Whis. Unlike Tenshinhan who learned his mistake and got better or Piccolo who proved his change with a heroic sacrifice and Vegeta who apologized for fucking up (multiple times) and had a heroic sacrifice, Beerus hasn't done anything to warrant a positive shift in his relationship with the others. They've never said they're sorry and act like indifferent pricks or are outright hostile towards the main cast. It was one of the reasons I was really hoping the Tournament of Power would conclude a subplot setup in the U6 tournament where Goku would kick Beerus' ass and prove that he's not just a pawn to be used and discarded at Beerus' whims.

That being said, saying Goku and Vegeta wouldn't care about them suddenly dying isn't really true. They are an end goal Goku and Vegeta strive towards, Goku in-particular, them being taken out by mysterious forces would prompt him to get involved, especially this goofier, severe battle junkie Goku who'd jump at the chance at finding the guy who managed to kill Beerus and Whis of all people. Vegeta, not wanting to get left behind, would follow suit. Hence why I don't think they'd just not care on any level if something happened to them.

As for my concept, I was mostly basing it on a hypothetical scenario where we drop the time travel angle exclusively then setup a version of a Black arc happening only in the present day.
Master Xar wrote:5.) And again. I can replace him with literally any other character or even a new one and it doesn’t change a thing. The concept isn’t bad, it’s putting Trunks in there as forced is just that. Forced. He has no big shoes to fill like Gohwn does to Goku. Supreme Kai of Time has no established power or control over him, he is just there and goes along with it for no reason other than it’s “Da rulez.” Nothing is personally or forcefully keeping him there so why the hell is he even bothering to be there?
It’s not Supreme Kai of Time wanting a friend that’s the problem, it’s literally just Trunks being a Time Cop cuz reasons.
We agree again, the idea stood out better when it seemed as though the Supreme Kai of Time was actually punshing him for doing this by sending him out to dangerous alternate histories to do battles to the death but then they dropped the ball on that by having the whole "she just wanted a friend!" thing. I get it, Dragon Ball makes a mountain out of a mole hill like that, but Beerus destroying the world over pudding is funny, the Supreme Kai thing just lessens what would be a meaningful consequence to just a cute DB thing. Which is weird since Future Trunks is the guy who we usually play straight, he's the guy who losses people and doesn't get magic balls to reverse everything into a neat bow.
Master Xar wrote:6.) i’d recommend my view topic on the changes here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42308

Why does it need a “point?” that’s not what it’s going for or anything to judge the merits of the story and it’s objective for. You can say it needs a point or needs to include more concepts all you want, but at the end of the day that’s really only subjective opinions on what it “should’ve” been.

Again you keep having these characters instantly develop from one event without looking into the compromises and progression of that development. Plus you aren’t looking into the context of the lesson they meant. Complacency. Goku has never been cocky in the sense that he thinks his power is satisfactory to where he flat-out stops training like Gohan. He is only confident in battle and that’s how he generally always is, he is invested in his own strength. He is confident in his power, not arrogant or cocky, big difference.

You’re oversimplifying the context and not looking at the circumstance and compromise of the characters. Goku and Vegeta only worked together in the fight against Kid Buu when they absolutely needed to, they were all for taking turns. Their flaw lies in the fact that if they were willing to work with each other under lesser circumstances and their current compromise as Whis’ lesson suggests is to only work with each other only when absolutely necessary as their saiyan blood drives them to fight one-on-one battles. The point to developing a character has to have again, a purpose, development doesn’t equal good
writing. If that’s the case Kale is a well written character because she develops.

The goal of development isn’t to weed out all the flaws of a character and kill it, but to nuance them as characters and their development to serve the story and it’s central theme if that’s what it’s going for


Again that’s not the theme of lesson that’s not what it’s trying to do. “Superficially changing yourself” isn’t the theme because there isn’t one, or as you call it is to call into question their flaws and how they bounce off each other in their different/switched roles Read my thread for more info, but again you are completely missing the point of ROF’s objective of what it’s trying to do instead of judging it on that for flawed aspects of “good writing” and trying to bounce around original ideas without looking at the execution to making them work.

The way you look at ROF and it’s reason for existing isn’t calling out how it fails to do what it’s trying to do and being objective, but rather to fault it for being “pointless and unoriginal.” And that’s not being fair to it.
[/quote]
Of course, it's subjective when I say something should matter or have a point, everything we've talked about is us arguing subjective things we find in modern DB content.

I am looking at the execution of Resurrection F when I talk about what it's trying to say with Goku, Vegeta, Freeza,... and I find it lacking. Development for the sake of itself isn't good I agree, but neither is retreading on existing ground we've already seen get overcome. Goku WAS overconfident in the Battle of Gods film, he cockily asked Beerus if he should dial back to SS2 if 3 seemed too daunting for him, he was annoyed he needed other people's power to challenge Beerus and the fact he couldn't win at the end of the day. Him telling Beerus he really is the strongest in U7 was a reaffirmation of what Roshi and Popo taught him years ago: don't get a big head, there's always people stronger than you. This is a stark contrast to Vegeta who spends a great deal of his screen time NOT wanting to fight Beerus under any circumstances and wants him to leave without a fuss, a massive shift for Vegeta who's even more of a fighting junkie than Goku is on occasion.

Hence why I find the idea of bringing in old tired things like Goku once again being lax from cockiness and Vegeta not being able to work with him problematic, why not explore a different avenue with them? Vegeta's bad temper for one is a perfect avenue to add nuances to him instead of just having him scream at Goku for being stronger than him again, why not examine this new, Super version of Goku who's goofier and takes things less seriously than ever and try to do something with that? It's not impossible because Freeza in the Tournament of Power overcomes his long standing idiocy streak by showing genuine calmness and cunning, also a serious lack of fear, and it's instantly refreshing because its not same old Freeza doing same old Freeza things.

Flaws give characters nuance, Dragon Ball, however, doesn't seem to want to explore any new flaws beyond the tried and true. This is why Vegeta can have a dozen moments of admitting Goku's better than him and still act like a bizzaro mix of his Cell & early Boo arc self, because that's the standard now.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:30 pm

the author simply wanted to use broly because he thinks his premise is interesting as well as character popularity will change it to make it work better
DragonBallLove wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Before some smartass comes at me about Zamasu and Black, yes, they were unique characters.
No, they are not. They are the Western Kaioshin and Xicor/Psycho from Toyble's AF.

Mediocre Toyotaro be damned.
Toriyama denies that by mentioning that he was the creator of zamasu and black
Grimlock wrote: All in the meanwhile, Gogeta, a cool fusion between the main protagonists of this franchise, was thrown away of his appearance in Future Trunks saga in favor of another crap fanservice that didn't add anything interesting except the Final Kamehameha technique.
How is gogeta better than vegito? literally the guy would also be fanservice of appear as it was in gt

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Cipher » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:37 pm

1) I am here for Broli. Sign me up. Sounds super fun.

2) That said, how cynical do you have to be to actually suggest to Toriyama he include Broli only because he's popular? I'm on board with the end result, but man oh man would I look down on whoever was responsible for that. It's not as though the series is at all a stranger to editorial suggestions an inclusion based on popularity (Dragon Ball even began with Torishima's popularity-minded suggestion that Toriyama's next series be a martial arts one), but somehow that feels a step further—requesting the inclusion of a specific pre-existing franchise character because of dollar signs (or rather 円 signs).

With that all out of the way? It's not hard to imagine the processes that wound up giving us Broli, nor do I think they're that negative or insidious beyond that initial, cynical suggestion. Someone was looking at Broli's popularity (as has been done before), and suggested working him into a new movie project to Toriyama. Toriyama apparently watched the old films (boy, to be a fly on the wall during those screenings; you could probably hear a pin drop), and thought there was enough there to spark an idea he was interested in. No harm, no foul. It's almost like a writing prompt, and it's not as if he hasn't run with the seeds thrown to him by editorial before—again, even going back to the earliest days of the original run, where the requests were along the lines of "introduce a tournament," "introduce this kind of villain," etc. If Toriyama thought, "I can do something fun with this," and was excited enough by whatever that generated to go off and write a script, you know what? That's totally cool, that's fine. I doubt he himself scrutinized it more than that.

And beyond that, yes, it's okay to acknowledge that there's some pleasure in seeing what a series as historied as this does with its own iconography as re-envisioned for the first time by the original author. I also happen to think Broli is, inherently, pretty fun, and genuinely among the most deservedly iconic of the original string of movie villains, despite the kind of fandom he's engendered.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by precita » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:52 pm

It's extra redundant with Kale around. It's fan pandering plain and simple/

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Master Xar » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:36 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Master Xar wrote:1.) Being the strongest as of being the central focus =/= better focus. His sideline serves as a point to his flaw as a character, that he runs away from his problems as to not take point as the leader or the strongest. He is seeking the past to fix his problems in the future, he lacks will outside of his need to protect the future. He is in that secondary role because he put himself there in the first place, and that as he comes into his own he can stand on his own two feet without looking like “the sideline”
I didn't say he had to be strongest, only that I feel like the anime tried to make a point to Trunks being there as a plot device by bringing up the idea of him being strong enough to take care of himself. Which they don't fullfill well as you can tell they desperately want him to train his ass off and get Blue but doesn't then they give him a sort of Blue form that's ultimately still weaker than anything the antagonists can throw at him.
I will say that I think you're wording Trunks problem poorly, reading this part, I don't think you get that Trunks isn't running away because he's a coward: he has no other choice. Unlike Goku and Vegeta, he has far less avenues to realistically improve himself and he tries for an entire year to defeat Black on his own, it's only when it gets supremely dire that he retreats into the past. His will to defend the future IS his driving force, not a weakness, he's an actual altruistic character which is a stark contrast to his dad and Goku who are primarily led by their desire for a good fight.
Master Xar wrote:2.) You’re missing the point. As long as Dragonball’s current timeline and problems continue on and as long as evil forces roam the universe. Trunks future will retrospectively have them as well in some form of another, and with that the potential for his story will continue as well. There is nothing inherently wrong with using him again for a new story arc. You can’t just throw him into a random role after all the events that happen and just skip over it with “lol that didn’t happen to me bro.” Not only is that arbitrary and stupid, it’s anticlimactic and boring.

As far as Original Intent. So what? Toriyama found room to do more with Trunks than to just finish his story. Is there some sort of hidden rule on continuing or changing intentions?
Usually, changing the intent should be done with a purpose and justify itself thanks to its execution. The Future Trunks arc does neither, it soft reboots everything Trunks did by saying it didn't ultimately matter and then fails to deliver a satisfying story from beginning to end, doing a good job for the first two third before giving up from Episode 61 onwards.

If the Future Trunks arc stayed good from beginning to end, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me concerning the rehashe feeling present with the premise. It would be a wort on an otherwise good product, but with the arc going as it did, it only adds to my issues.
Master Xar wrote:3.) I like Beerus and Whis as characters not people. You aren’t seeing the relationship from Vegeta or Goku’s perspectives and the context. Beerus has been nothing but a complete asshole to them, outside of the mutual respect as warriors he isn’t a friend. He gives them the benefits of god training, but it’s a business transaction as they give him food. Other than that, Beerus when he first met them both in BOG, Beerus beat the shot out of their actual friends and family, and barely even apologizes, even in Super when he doesn’t do it at all and just faked going to sleep rather than admit to letting them go and saying sorry.
As far as Vegeta’s childhood he forced his father underneath his boot over a pillow and temporary paralyzed him when he only stood up for himself and his father. He then goes on to be a complete non-help outside of his attendant, Whis, to actually give a damn and help them out with Freeza. Then later goes on to force them into a tournament to which their Earths could be switched (in what way depends on the wording of the wish) over some petty argument of food, it’s even lampshaded they are pawns in a game here.

Beerus has no ground to stand on as someone Goku and especially Vegeta wouldn’t lose sleep over. They may grieve and show respect as fighters/martial artists and be pissed at their missed chance for a rematch, but they aren’t going to go on a personal manhunt over them.

Supreme Kai and Old Kai, have literally zero history with them outside of maybe a few lines of dialogue and remote encounters, they have zero relationships as far as even respect goes let alone liking them. The won’t really be that personally invested if they die either.
It’s not their fight to get involved in. You are basing your liking of the characters and equating it to Goku and Vegeta liking them.

Also I thought we were judging your idea as standalone, not with the concept already in the arc like the “God death/Angel Inactivity Proxy” idea.
We're actually in agreement for once, I do NOT like how everyone acts buddy buddy with Beerus and Whis. Unlike Tenshinhan who learned his mistake and got better or Piccolo who proved his change with a heroic sacrifice and Vegeta who apologized for fucking up (multiple times) and had a heroic sacrifice, Beerus hasn't done anything to warrant a positive shift in his relationship with the others. They've never said they're sorry and act like indifferent pricks or are outright hostile towards the main cast. It was one of the reasons I was really hoping the Tournament of Power would conclude a subplot setup in the U6 tournament where Goku would kick Beerus' ass and prove that he's not just a pawn to be used and discarded at Beerus' whims.

That being said, saying Goku and Vegeta wouldn't care about them suddenly dying isn't really true. They are an end goal Goku and Vegeta strive towards, Goku in-particular, them being taken out by mysterious forces would prompt him to get involved, especially this goofier, severe battle junkie Goku who'd jump at the chance at finding the guy who managed to kill Beerus and Whis of all people. Vegeta, not wanting to get left behind, would follow suit. Hence why I don't think they'd just not care on any level if something happened to them.

As for my concept, I was mostly basing it on a hypothetical scenario where we drop the time travel angle exclusively then setup a version of a Black arc happening only in the present day.
Master Xar wrote:5.) And again. I can replace him with literally any other character or even a new one and it doesn’t change a thing. The concept isn’t bad, it’s putting Trunks in there as forced is just that. Forced. He has no big shoes to fill like Gohwn does to Goku. Supreme Kai of Time has no established power or control over him, he is just there and goes along with it for no reason other than it’s “Da rulez.” Nothing is personally or forcefully keeping him there so why the hell is he even bothering to be there?
It’s not Supreme Kai of Time wanting a friend that’s the problem, it’s literally just Trunks being a Time Cop cuz reasons.
We agree again, the idea stood out better when it seemed as though the Supreme Kai of Time was actually punshing him for doing this by sending him out to dangerous alternate histories to do battles to the death but then they dropped the ball on that by having the whole "she just wanted a friend!" thing. I get it, Dragon Ball makes a mountain out of a mole hill like that, but Beerus destroying the world over pudding is funny, the Supreme Kai thing just lessens what would be a meaningful consequence to just a cute DB thing. Which is weird since Future Trunks is the guy who we usually play straight, he's the guy who losses people and doesn't get magic balls to reverse everything into a neat bow.
Master Xar wrote:6.) i’d recommend my view topic on the changes here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42308

Why does it need a “point?” that’s not what it’s going for or anything to judge the merits of the story and it’s objective for. You can say it needs a point or needs to include more concepts all you want, but at the end of the day that’s really only subjective opinions on what it “should’ve” been.

Again you keep having these characters instantly develop from one event without looking into the compromises and progression of that development. Plus you aren’t looking into the context of the lesson they meant. Complacency. Goku has never been cocky in the sense that he thinks his power is satisfactory to where he flat-out stops training like Gohan. He is only confident in battle and that’s how he generally always is, he is invested in his own strength. He is confident in his power, not arrogant or cocky, big difference.

You’re oversimplifying the context and not looking at the circumstance and compromise of the characters. Goku and Vegeta only worked together in the fight against Kid Buu when they absolutely needed to, they were all for taking turns. Their flaw lies in the fact that if they were willing to work with each other under lesser circumstances and their current compromise as Whis’ lesson suggests is to only work with each other only when absolutely necessary as their saiyan blood drives them to fight one-on-one battles. The point to developing a character has to have again, a purpose, development doesn’t equal good
writing. If that’s the case Kale is a well written character because she develops.

The goal of development isn’t to weed out all the flaws of a character and kill it, but to nuance them as characters and their development to serve the story and it’s central theme if that’s what it’s going for


Again that’s not the theme of lesson that’s not what it’s trying to do. “Superficially changing yourself” isn’t the theme because there isn’t one, or as you call it is to call into question their flaws and how they bounce off each other in their different/switched roles Read my thread for more info, but again you are completely missing the point of ROF’s objective of what it’s trying to do instead of judging it on that for flawed aspects of “good writing” and trying to bounce around original ideas without looking at the execution to making them work.

The way you look at ROF and it’s reason for existing isn’t calling out how it fails to do what it’s trying to do and being objective, but rather to fault it for being “pointless and unoriginal.” And that’s not being fair to it.
Of course, it's subjective when I say something should matter or have a point, everything we've talked about is us arguing subjective things we find in modern DB content.

I am looking at the execution of Resurrection F when I talk about what it's trying to say with Goku, Vegeta, Freeza,... and I find it lacking. Development for the sake of itself isn't good I agree, but neither is retreading on existing ground we've already seen get overcome. Goku WAS overconfident in the Battle of Gods film, he cockily asked Beerus if he should dial back to SS2 if 3 seemed too daunting for him, he was annoyed he needed other people's power to challenge Beerus and the fact he couldn't win at the end of the day. Him telling Beerus he really is the strongest in U7 was a reaffirmation of what Roshi and Popo taught him years ago: don't get a big head, there's always people stronger than you. This is a stark contrast to Vegeta who spends a great deal of his screen time NOT wanting to fight Beerus under any circumstances and wants him to leave without a fuss, a massive shift for Vegeta who's even more of a fighting junkie than Goku is on occasion.

Hence why I find the idea of bringing in old tired things like Goku once again being lax from cockiness and Vegeta not being able to work with him problematic, why not explore a different avenue with them? Vegeta's bad temper for one is a perfect avenue to add nuances to him instead of just having him scream at Goku for being stronger than him again, why not examine this new, Super version of Goku who's goofier and takes things less seriously than ever and try to do something with that? It's not impossible because Freeza in the Tournament of Power overcomes his long standing idiocy streak by showing genuine calmness and cunning, also a serious lack of fear, and it's instantly refreshing because its not same old Freeza doing same old Freeza things.

Flaws give characters nuance, Dragon Ball, however, doesn't seem to want to explore any new flaws beyond the tried and true. This is why Vegeta can have a dozen moments of admitting Goku's better than him and still act like a bizzaro mix of his Cell & early Boo arc self, because that's the standard now.[/quote]
1.). He does have options and hidden resources, he doesn’t explore to find them like the HBTC in the Cell arc, as long as he stuck to his guns and either figured out something as a solution in his own timeline, he does have something to find in his own strength if he were willing to invest the time (no pun intended). He doesn’t put any effort into finding an alternate solution in his own world.

just like how Goku explored to find new ways to get stronger and he does have the potential, SSJ Rage shows that very clearly, if he had just let his rage take over him when Bulma died he would’ve killed Black then and there since he was nowhere near as strong as he was later on and didn’t have SSJR to compensate, but his run to the past set several things into motion that lead to his failure.

His time travel lead to Goku Black meeting Goku and eventually getting too strong as he adapted to Goku’s body. Zamasu and Black said it themselves, while not necessarily his “fault” everything resulting to the arrival of Black to the destruction of his timeline was all from him time traveling and being unwilling to step up to his role and destiny: the sole survivor of the Z warriors, the sole protector of Earth

Had Trunks instead of time traveling to try to fix his future through singular timeline theory and then later cheated his power through finding his methods and strength in the past instead of finding it on his own was a cheat and the universe compensated with Black and Zamasu’s arrival. He didn’t train to beat the Androids fair and square and in his own future.

That’s his job, that’s the reality he must face and be able to stand on his own instead of reliance on people and things in his world that have long expired or died out. Time Travel is the easy way out , it’s cheating the universe and fate itself, that’s why it’s a law in Dragonball, it only makes things worse.

Ambition and passion can fall flat if you don’t have the determination or creative thinking to back it up.

When Trunks gets the power to finally, ultimately face and beat his problems head-on when everything and all that he has built up, with everyone cheering him on... tragically it’s far to late and his timeline is lost, his efforts were pointless... and that’s what makes it good (in theory, the execution of it in both the manga and anime is pretty bad execution-wise)

2.) the soft reboot I felt was actually pretty good (in theory) the alternate timeline with the same Trunks will be the ultimate reminder of his failure, of his mistakes, and that it’s not his world, it’s someone else’s, what he could’ve had if he didn’t go to the past and make things worse.

It’s good, but like you say it was executed bad. The pace skyrocketed after episode 61, it went down, but it was ok, but episode 64 onward was warping through the whole final fight and ending. I feel that was more due to balancing of the schedule and trying to get the big animators on top of the final fight. I don’t blame the writers and animators more than I blame the rushed pre-production and bad scheduling which lead to the rush.

There’s no such thing to me as a “bad idea” or “good idea” when it comes to writing at least to me, only execution and the fulfillment of purpose, a unique or complex idea is worth just as much to me as a simple, and unoriginal idea as long as it works and has nuance and intricacies, and it’s all equally garbage to me if it fucks up what it’s trying to do. I don’t give points for “at least it’s trying” or “it tried to be unique” as much as I view it “it’s throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.”

I hold my personal preference for simple and grounded approaches personally.

3.) I mean as far as generating interest and who is killing the gods yes you’re right, it serves as good build-up, but far as hinging an entire arc and quest the characters go for that? Eeehhhh... it’s a stretch. Maybe if the god kills or kidnaps someone a bit more close like say... their kids? Yes then they have more motivation or something else to drive them to try to find the murderer.

As for how the characters treat him, I feel up to this point they’ve really only shown respect whether out of fear or acknowledgement of his strength, they haven’t done him any favors and vice versa outside of just doing what he asks or for training sake. They don’t really have a deep bond or moment outside of basic acknowledgement or respect, hell that was his whole development in the ToP arc.

Ah ok, that clarifies it.

5.) I feel that Supreme Kai of Time was executed in general as far as character was bad as well. Her dynamic, personality, and relationship tries too hard to be funny/quirky and comes across as a bit too random and ungrounded it’s not very “Toriyama-esque” either.

I feel due to her design and it’s subversion, make her very strict and firm, no bullshit, she doesn’t care who or what you are and how powerful, you break the rules, you get the punishment, can be used pretty well for comedy and actual seriousness given the scenario, that often due to her lack of power and stature she comes off unthreatening, but she has her own GoD to speak for her (and he is the one to forcefully keep Trunks in line as a bonus). And due to her firm or stuck-up nature she lacks a social life and then grows to like Trunks. That is to say that if they want to stick to their guns with the trend of the Kais themselves being relatively weak in terms of power and the GoD being the muscle.

6.) and you’re free to think that. But for your sake and how you don’t enjoy it, I’ll give you my perspective. I feel it works best as viewing it as a “sidestory” that sets up thing for the future even if not directly involved with the other universes. It’s it’s own isolated thing if temporarily if at any case it can or needs to be used for the future like Freeza and his newfound strength for the ToP, it sets up and contextual uses the characters flaws. Goku is not as cocky as he was in BOG because he doesn’t mock Freeza to say he needs to be in a lesser form to handle him. Vegeta still holds a chip on his shoulder and isn’t fast enough to finish off Freeza.

BOG while yes the contrast you present is definitely sound it was more to show how Goku and avengers contrast to how they perceive and react to authority and how they deal with it, and there are for more variables and differences in their situations in the movie to causes them to go for their different approaches to Beerus and his power.

Also when did Vegeta ever scream at Goku for getting more powerful? He’s frustrated, but often only silently and he doesn’t hold it against Goku personally or see it as an insult. The compromise Vegeta has to his rivalry with Goku, is acknowledging that he is a warrior of equal ground and can stand as not being a “low-class clown” like beforehand in his Buu and Cell days, he never titles Goku lower than him as a warrior, and as a saiyan after Buu, he never gives up his drive and rivalry completely, it’s just less hostile.

Goku’s newfound cockiness and confidence serves to nuance and highlight his other flaws like his naïveté and lack of consideration for others at times. Goku himself isn’t meant to be a character that develops heavily either. His purpose his his drive, determination, and strength draws others to him, Jiren highlights this well as he is a foil, a shadow archetype to Goku of what would happen if something horrible happened to him that made him lose his path or bloodstained his ideals.

Goku has never really been designed to develop much, it’s his personality quirks and how his interesting personality reacts to new situations and people and how he changes them. Vegeta’s development never really “regressed” or backtracked to Cell and Buu arc days, more that he compromises and his development process slows down and that’s not really a bad thing, just like adding new flaws and developing from there isn’t a good or bad thing either.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:54 am

Master Xar wrote:1.). He does have options and hidden resources, he doesn’t explore to find them like the HBTC in the Cell arc, as long as he stuck to his guns and either figured out something as a solution in his own timeline, he does have something to find in his own strength if he were willing to invest the time (no pun intended). He doesn’t put any effort into finding an alternate solution in his own world.

just like how Goku explored to find new ways to get stronger and he does have the potential, SSJ Rage shows that very clearly, if he had just let his rage take over him when Bulma died he would’ve killed Black then and there since he was nowhere near as strong as he was later on and didn’t have SSJR to compensate, but his run to the past set several things into motion that lead to his failure.

His time travel lead to Goku Black meeting Goku and eventually getting too strong as he adapted to Goku’s body. Zamasu and Black said it themselves, while not necessarily his “fault” everything resulting to the arrival of Black to the destruction of his timeline was all from him time traveling and being unwilling to step up to his role and destiny: the sole survivor of the Z warriors, the sole protector of Earth

Had Trunks instead of time traveling to try to fix his future through singular timeline theory and then later cheated his power through finding his methods and strength in the past instead of finding it on his own was a cheat and the universe compensated with Black and Zamasu’s arrival. He didn’t train to beat the Androids fair and square and in his own future.

That’s his job, that’s the reality he must face and be able to stand on his own instead of reliance on people and things in his world that have long expired or died out. Time Travel is the easy way out , it’s cheating the universe and fate itself, that’s why it’s a law in Dragonball, it only makes things worse.

Ambition and passion can fall flat if you don’t have the determination or creative thinking to back it up.

When Trunks gets the power to finally, ultimately face and beat his problems head-on when everything and all that he has built up, with everyone cheering him on... tragically it’s far to late and his timeline is lost, his efforts were pointless... and that’s what makes it good (in theory, the execution of it in both the manga and anime is pretty bad execution-wise)
The thing with Trunks is that he doesn't have the same opportunities as Goku does. Trunks lacks Kami, so he can't go train with Kaio, the Lookout is destroyed in his timeline meaning he can't use the Room of Spirit and Time. Beerus and Whis never come to Earth in his version of events or if they did, they left without anyone knowing better, these are all avenues Trunks can't really compensate for and even Goku gets these avenues available to him thanks to special circumstances and dumb luck. I don't really think it's fair to cite Trunks as being ineffective for not doing things he really can't properly compensate for.

The manga shows him training with the Z-Sword but also how it was destroyed along with Kaioshin and Kibito, leaving him with no further avenues to get stronger like Ultimate. The manga further shows us that he did train really, really hard, managing to match SS3, Post-BoG Goku in terms of power but still not measuring up.

Now, there are ways we can think of to get him there, like why doesn't he try to poison Black with the heart virus to kill him for example? Why didn't he go back to the past, get another Namekian and bring them over to the Earth to fix it after the Android arc? Which gets us into a serious Dragon Ball problem after the Freeza arc where the cast has such easy ways to cheat the system, numerous one's too, it really gets hard to create convincing conflicts for them that don't fall apart under a seconds worth of scrutiny. As someone who's written a fair number of DB fics, trust me, it's a major problem.

I also wouldn't cite Trunks' lack of anger at Black as a problem either, if anything, the series uses Black to mock the idea of rage boosts. During the flashback where we get the first tidbits of Black's backstory, Trunks does get horribly angry and tries to charge him and Black just laughs off the idea of him using emotions to power himself up before knocking him down. Then they screw this up by giving Trunks and Goku both rage boosts.

Ultimately, I think we've got two different reads on what happens to Trunks and what is the point of his story. I personally think they were trying to say that no matter how hard you try, sometimes you will lose and nothing can be done about it. A pretty poignant message to send for Dragon Ball where hard work is almost exclusively rewarded. The issue arises in the fact they try to sell it as a bittersweet ending instead of the tragic, absolute failure for Trunks it is, showcasing an incredible tone deafness I've not seen in a long while.
Master Xar wrote:2.) the soft reboot I felt was actually pretty good (in theory) the alternate timeline with the same Trunks will be the ultimate reminder of his failure, of his mistakes, and that it’s not his world, it’s someone else’s, what he could’ve had if he didn’t go to the past and make things worse.

It’s good, but like you say it was executed bad. The pace skyrocketed after episode 61, it went down, but it was ok, but episode 64 onward was warping through the whole final fight and ending. I feel that was more due to balancing of the schedule and trying to get the big animators on top of the final fight. I don’t blame the writers and animators more than I blame the rushed pre-production and bad scheduling which lead to the rush.

There’s no such thing to me as a “bad idea” or “good idea” when it comes to writing at least to me, only execution and the fulfillment of purpose, a unique or complex idea is worth just as much to me as a simple, and unoriginal idea as long as it works and has nuance and intricacies, and it’s all equally garbage to me if it fucks up what it’s trying to do. I don’t give points for “at least it’s trying” or “it tried to be unique” as much as I view it “it’s throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.”

I hold my personal preference for simple and grounded approaches personally.
We're gonna have to disagree on there being good and bad ideas, because I think there absolutely are things great or terrible on a conceptual level. Which isn't to say they can't get elevated or brought down. Goku Black on paper is the most horrendous shit imaginable but they pull him off and he's easily one of the few worthwhile things Super has ever contributed to the series. Freeza coming back yet again for the Tournament of Power is an awful idea, especially after how bad RoF was, but they make it good by actually doing something different with him.

Conversely, there are good ideas pretty badly squandered too. Jiren is supposed to be this emotionally crippled guy, who for all his power doesn't feel strong enough but they just characterize him as a stock, stoic anime badass who's backstory fails to make you anything but cringe. Zamasu is great conceptually but he just becomes a generic Final Fantasy bad guy very quickly, doesn't help he has none of Black's mad charisma to elevate him.
Master Xar wrote:5.) I feel that Supreme Kai of Time was executed in general as far as character was bad as well. Her dynamic, personality, and relationship tries too hard to be funny/quirky and comes across as a bit too random and ungrounded it’s not very “Toriyama-esque” either.

I feel due to her design and it’s subversion, make her very strict and firm, no bullshit, she doesn’t care who or what you are and how powerful, you break the rules, you get the punishment, can be used pretty well for comedy and actual seriousness given the scenario, that often due to her lack of power and stature she comes off unthreatening, but she has her own GoD to speak for her (and he is the one to forcefully keep Trunks in line as a bonus). And due to her firm or stuck-up nature, she lacks a social life and then grows to like Trunks. That is to say that if they want to stick to their guns with the trend of the Kais themselves being relatively weak in terms of power and the GoD being the muscle.
This is a problem with DB where the Kai's can't be effective no matter what, looking like bumbling idiots more often than not. I only say a problem in that it makes them all seem very one-note and sort of clones of each other when they don't have to be. It speaks volumes that the only Kai's worth a damn is way outside the standard universe we inhabit. Even Zamasu, the evil villainous Kai is turned into the butt of jokes in the anime of Super.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by sintzu » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:23 am

Cipher wrote: 2) That said, how cynical do you have to be to actually suggest to Toriyama he include Broli only because he's popular? I'm on board with the end result, but man oh man would I look down on whoever was responsible for that. It's not as though the series is at all a stranger to editorial suggestions an inclusion based on popularity (Dragon Ball even began with Torishima's popularity-minded suggestion that Toriyama's next series be a martial arts one), but somehow that feels a step further—requesting the inclusion of a specific pre-existing franchise character because of dollar signs (or rather 円 signs).
I think Toroyama's original plan was to look at the history of the saiyans and possibly the lssj. As things developed they may started to look very similar to Broly and his story so his editor suggested Broly to make things easier for him and for the fans. If he ever decides to look into Freeza and his race then chances are cooler will be brought in because of how connected he is with that part of the lore.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by precita » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:28 am

So now Broly will be above the level of Blue and given he's likely from Universe 7 this makes no sense. So Broly was always around when Freeza was conquering Universe 7, yet nobody heard of Broly, Supreme Kai didn't fear him but feared Majin Buu, etc.

How does this make sense? At least Movie 8 Broly was only stronger than a Super Saiyan and somewhere around Super Saiyan 2 level. This Broly is obviously somewhat similar to early Jiren I guess.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Bullza » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:40 am

It's just money. Nothing else to it but that. For whatever reason Broly has always been hugely popular, so some editor pretty much told him to make a Broly movie and that's what we're getting.

Just an easy and lazy way to get people to pay for the admission ticket.

You can tell Toriyama has been out of ideas for a good while now. So he'll go with whatever.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by TheGreatSaiyaman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:49 pm

The one true answer, his true calling, destroying and jobbing Gohan.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Dbzk1999 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:00 pm

Hell, if anything, I’d say that it somewhat validates Vegeta’s statement during the ToP that Kale’s berserk form was the “true form of the saiyans” or something to that effect. Wouldn’t be surprised if that’s called back to now

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by sintzu » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:54 pm

Bullza wrote:You can tell Toriyama has been out of ideas for a good while now. So he'll go with whatever.
Or his movie was already close to what Broly and his backstory was that his editor just told him he might as well reintroduce Broly. The destroyers, multiverse, pride troopers and Zamasu show that he still has new ideas he's willing to introduce.
precita wrote:So now Broly will be above the level of Blue, was always around when Freeza was conquering Universe 7, yet nobody heard of Broly ? How does this make sense?
We'll know once the movie's out.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Bullza » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:33 pm

sintzu wrote:Or his movie was already close to what Broly and his backstory was that his editor just told him he might as well reintroduce Broly. The destroyers, multiverse, pride troopers and Zamasu show that he still has new ideas he's willing to introduce.
That'd be even worse if he just shoehorned Broly in at the last minute.

He does have some smaller ideas here and there but overall he's running short and it's very obvious.

Battle of Gods wasn't even his story, it was someone elses idea that he then rewrote.

Resurrection F was a simple story where he brought back a previous villain for revenge.

The Universe 6 saga was a Tournament of which they've had many. Champa was a fat Beerus, Vados was a female Whis, Frost was another Frieza and Cabba was another Saiyan.

The Future Trunks saga was the best of the lot but was largely similar to the Android saga and Goku Black was just a evil Goku of which they've done before with Turles.

The Universe Survival saga was yet another Tournament.

And now we have this movie where they've bringing back another villain, this time Broly.

So at this rate when Super does come back on TV we'll get another Tournament and eventually another movie where they bring Cell back.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Master Xar » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:08 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Master Xar wrote:1.). He does have options and hidden resources, he doesn’t explore to find them like the HBTC in the Cell arc, as long as he stuck to his guns and either figured out something as a solution in his own timeline, he does have something to find in his own strength if he were willing to invest the time (no pun intended). He doesn’t put any effort into finding an alternate solution in his own world.

just like how Goku explored to find new ways to get stronger and he does have the potential, SSJ Rage shows that very clearly, if he had just let his rage take over him when Bulma died he would’ve killed Black then and there since he was nowhere near as strong as he was later on and didn’t have SSJR to compensate, but his run to the past set several things into motion that lead to his failure.

His time travel lead to Goku Black meeting Goku and eventually getting too strong as he adapted to Goku’s body. Zamasu and Black said it themselves, while not necessarily his “fault” everything resulting to the arrival of Black to the destruction of his timeline was all from him time traveling and being unwilling to step up to his role and destiny: the sole survivor of the Z warriors, the sole protector of Earth

Had Trunks instead of time traveling to try to fix his future through singular timeline theory and then later cheated his power through finding his methods and strength in the past instead of finding it on his own was a cheat and the universe compensated with Black and Zamasu’s arrival. He didn’t train to beat the Androids fair and square and in his own future.

That’s his job, that’s the reality he must face and be able to stand on his own instead of reliance on people and things in his world that have long expired or died out. Time Travel is the easy way out , it’s cheating the universe and fate itself, that’s why it’s a law in Dragonball, it only makes things worse.

Ambition and passion can fall flat if you don’t have the determination or creative thinking to back it up.

When Trunks gets the power to finally, ultimately face and beat his problems head-on when everything and all that he has built up, with everyone cheering him on... tragically it’s far to late and his timeline is lost, his efforts were pointless... and that’s what makes it good (in theory, the execution of it in both the manga and anime is pretty bad execution-wise)
The thing with Trunks is that he doesn't have the same opportunities as Goku does. Trunks lacks Kami, so he can't go train with Kaio, the Lookout is destroyed in his timeline meaning he can't use the Room of Spirit and Time. Beerus and Whis never come to Earth in his version of events or if they did, they left without anyone knowing better, these are all avenues Trunks can't really compensate for and even Goku gets these avenues available to him thanks to special circumstances and dumb luck. I don't really think it's fair to cite Trunks as being ineffective for not doing things he really can't properly compensate for.

The manga shows him training with the Z-Sword but also how it was destroyed along with Kaioshin and Kibito, leaving him with no further avenues to get stronger like Ultimate. The manga further shows us that he did train really, really hard, managing to match SS3, Post-BoG Goku in terms of power but still not measuring up.

Now, there are ways we can think of to get him there, like why doesn't he try to poison Black with the heart virus to kill him for example? Why didn't he go back to the past, get another Namekian and bring them over to the Earth to fix it after the Android arc? Which gets us into a serious Dragon Ball problem after the Freeza arc where the cast has such easy ways to cheat the system, numerous one's too, it really gets hard to create convincing conflicts for them that don't fall apart under a seconds worth of scrutiny. As someone who's written a fair number of DB fics, trust me, it's a major problem.

I also wouldn't cite Trunks' lack of anger at Black as a problem either, if anything, the series uses Black to mock the idea of rage boosts. During the flashback where we get the first tidbits of Black's backstory, Trunks does get horribly angry and tries to charge him and Black just laughs off the idea of him using emotions to power himself up before knocking him down. Then they screw this up by giving Trunks and Goku both rage boosts.

Ultimately, I think we've got two different reads on what happens to Trunks and what is the point of his story. I personally think they were trying to say that no matter how hard you try, sometimes you will lose and nothing can be done about it. A pretty poignant message to send for Dragon Ball where hard work is almost exclusively rewarded. The issue arises in the fact they try to sell it as a bittersweet ending instead of the tragic, absolute failure for Trunks it is, showcasing an incredible tone deafness I've not seen in a long while.
Master Xar wrote:2.) the soft reboot I felt was actually pretty good (in theory) the alternate timeline with the same Trunks will be the ultimate reminder of his failure, of his mistakes, and that it’s not his world, it’s someone else’s, what he could’ve had if he didn’t go to the past and make things worse.

It’s good, but like you say it was executed bad. The pace skyrocketed after episode 61, it went down, but it was ok, but episode 64 onward was warping through the whole final fight and ending. I feel that was more due to balancing of the schedule and trying to get the big animators on top of the final fight. I don’t blame the writers and animators more than I blame the rushed pre-production and bad scheduling which lead to the rush.

There’s no such thing to me as a “bad idea” or “good idea” when it comes to writing at least to me, only execution and the fulfillment of purpose, a unique or complex idea is worth just as much to me as a simple, and unoriginal idea as long as it works and has nuance and intricacies, and it’s all equally garbage to me if it fucks up what it’s trying to do. I don’t give points for “at least it’s trying” or “it tried to be unique” as much as I view it “it’s throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.”

I hold my personal preference for simple and grounded approaches personally.
We're gonna have to disagree on there being good and bad ideas, because I think there absolutely are things great or terrible on a conceptual level. Which isn't to say they can't get elevated or brought down. Goku Black on paper is the most horrendous shit imaginable but they pull him off and he's easily one of the few worthwhile things Super has ever contributed to the series. Freeza coming back yet again for the Tournament of Power is an awful idea, especially after how bad RoF was, but they make it good by actually doing something different with him.

Conversely, there are good ideas pretty badly squandered too. Jiren is supposed to be this emotionally crippled guy, who for all his power doesn't feel strong enough but they just characterize him as a stock, stoic anime badass who's backstory fails to make you anything but cringe. Zamasu is great conceptually but he just becomes a generic Final Fantasy bad guy very quickly, doesn't help he has none of Black's mad charisma to elevate him.
Master Xar wrote:5.) I feel that Supreme Kai of Time was executed in general as far as character was bad as well. Her dynamic, personality, and relationship tries too hard to be funny/quirky and comes across as a bit too random and ungrounded it’s not very “Toriyama-esque” either.

I feel due to her design and it’s subversion, make her very strict and firm, no bullshit, she doesn’t care who or what you are and how powerful, you break the rules, you get the punishment, can be used pretty well for comedy and actual seriousness given the scenario, that often due to her lack of power and stature she comes off unthreatening, but she has her own GoD to speak for her (and he is the one to forcefully keep Trunks in line as a bonus). And due to her firm or stuck-up nature, she lacks a social life and then grows to like Trunks. That is to say that if they want to stick to their guns with the trend of the Kais themselves being relatively weak in terms of power and the GoD being the muscle.
This is a problem with DB where the Kai's can't be effective no matter what, looking like bumbling idiots more often than not. I only say a problem in that it makes them all seem very one-note and sort of clones of each other when they don't have to be. It speaks volumes that the only Kai's worth a damn is way outside the standard universe we inhabit. Even Zamasu, the evil villainous Kai is turned into the butt of jokes in the anime of Super.
1.) yeah and while those avenues are closed, he has to find his own to compensate, just like how he can find or meet with the Kais, theare are avenues and routes to get stronger somewhere out there in the universe, he just has to try or be patient. If his training is ineffective he either has to find a new method on his own or die trying. Them’s the rules dude.

As far as logic of the characters you have to consider whether they’d think about it or not an consider their intelligence, as well as their moral code and philosophy as to consider even doing it. It’s tricky.
You can’t write characters to be Einstein and instantly solve or come up with a solution to their problems same as you can’t write them to be absolutely retarded like in RWBY for instance.
A big problem with writers and reviewers tend to think that their intelligence and ability to come up with a logical solution along with their moral standards is equivalent to the character’s logic and demerit or get rid of avenues to solve the problem as if it’s a completely objective flaw. Yes getting rid of avenues increases tension and gives power to whatever villain or force, but in retrospect their are plenty of hidden variables and ways to solve problems, the obvious or big ones may or may not say how dumb the character.

2.) Not really. Ideas are just that man. Ideas. Whether you think it’s good or bad entirely depends on if you can see the potential of it and if it can work or not. Plenty of people think that the evil Goku concept is bad from the sense that the “cliché evil protagonist clone” is generic or that it’s been used and was bad beforehand without looking at the ideas potential itself.

As far as Zamasu and Jiren. I think they were executed “ok”, things could have been done better, but I don’t think it’s on the same ground as “it could not have been done worse.” You can’t think in absolutes and throw everything in to the “Absolutely perfect” to “completely squandered/trash” bins

Zamasu’s descent into madness and his growing hate for mortals needed more nuance and development, they needed to slow down and show his hate for other mortal races, namely the humans on Earth as in the future that was the current target he tries to kill. They could’ve been more subtle and paced his monologues better. Overall tho I think he makes a pretty decent villain as far as Dragonball goes.

Jiren is a weird case. His backstory is incredibly rushed over making it seem simple and generic, and this was paced over Belmod talking about it in the middle of the damn tournament when there is fucking 8 minutes left, but I think they weren’t really trying to make his backstory nuanced and evenly paced, may or may not be due to the show nearly ending, but they used it to really only explain Jiren’s philosophy and his mental issues which was well executed in 130 and 131. His backstory was really only meant to serve a purpose. Whether I could forgive it or not for that is... well...

He is a weird case as far as execution goes, but overall I think he is good as far as antagonists go.

5.) It’s why I like King Kai and Gowasu so much, they actually have a decent level of competence, Gowasu I respect for admitting his mistake and lack of awareness of Zamasu’s madness and holds himself to a level of composure I like he is a wise old man unlike Old Kai. Supreme Kai and Old Kai panic and freak out literally every time something remotely bad happens, they lose track and don’t apologize for their mistakes and aim to be better Kais.
They just keep tripping over their own feet constantly and outside of getting Gohan his Ultimate and Z-Sword training they have barely done Fuck. All. they are at a level of incompetence up to their title that it infuriates me.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by precita » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:20 pm

It's Broly because all the 13 year olds in the early 2000's are now 25-30+ year old adults and are now nostalgic for him. Even though we're not 13 year old edgelords anymore.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by BWri » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Two reasons:

1. Toriyama earnestly thinks the Broly is an intriguing enough concept to provide his own spin on the character
2. Broly is incredibly popular in Japan and in large parts of the Western fandom and someone in the Dragon Ball room wanted to cash in on that popularity.
Essentially this. 100%

I think it'll be fine. It can't be any worse than the last two Broly movies. But you know what, Toriyama built a lot of goodwill with me with how he handled an :roll: concept like an evil Goku. That should have been trite from the start but it was the complete opposite. I think he can do something interesting with Broly.
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