What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

[Grimlock]

I find this funny coming from a Heroes fan. How many times have Heroes brought back a villain?

Depending on who you are talking about, once or twice among Dark Demon Realm Mission saga and Prison Planet saga stories. Freeza has returned way more than that.

[HeroR]

I find this funny coming from a Heroes fan. How many times have Heroes brought back a villain?

Depending on who you are talking about, once or twice among Dark Demon Realm Mission saga and Prison Planet saga stories. Freeza has returned way more than that.

And the point remains that Heroes bring back villains all the time, even their own villains who died. And Fu is a re-reimainge of baby Fu that never made it Dragon Ball Online.

[Grimlock]

And the point remains that Heroes bring back villains all the time, even their own villains who died. And Fu is a re-reimainge of baby Fu that never made it Dragon Ball Online.

What "all the time"? I've just said they returned just once (and it's in regard to their appearances in the movies, because if we don't count the movies, then Heroes used them for the first time and just once). Also, unlike the "main series", Heroes uses other more interesting villains as well. There wouldn't be any complaints if it was the case for the next movie and it's not like the next movie will be about another movie villain, is it?

[HeroR]

And the point remains that Heroes bring back villains all the time, even their own villains who died. And Fu is a re-reimainge of baby Fu that never made it Dragon Ball Online.

What "all the time"? I've just said they returned just once (and it's in regard to their appearances in the movies, because if we don't count the movies, then Heroes used them for the first time and just once). Also, unlike the "main series", Heroes uses other more interesting villains as well. There wouldn't be any complaints if it was the case for the next movie and it's not like the next movie will be about another movie villain, is it?

More interesting is subjective, especially since they keep reusing the same time travel story points with sprinkles of the Demon Realm.

Honestly, the only villain I found more interesting in Heroes is Fu.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I don't especially like or hate Broly. But I am interested to see what new direction Akira Toriyama will take him in.

And at this point the DB saga has multiple universes: two Saiyan races, two Trunks, two Gokus, two Zenos. Two Brolys isn't too out there IMO.

[Master Xar]

And yes the people and the conflict generally taking place in the future is a big change and serves the characters struggles well. As I said. Trunks has to find his own way out of this since he can’t keep running to the past for his troubles, that was his flaw as a character Trunks didn’t learn his lesson. This is a clip as Trunks’ big intro of coming to the past to help the past and give advice, as to where now he goes to the past to get help this time.

Except Trunks does just run to the past to save his troubles, if he didn't run away, Black would've won without anyone being the wiser. Also, Trunks going to the past and asking for help is THE reason he succeeds at all against the Androids. Trying to twist that into some kind of flaw he keeps doing is not only incorrect but also doesn't line up with what actually happened before.

Yeah as I said it was completely open as far as things that would almost inevitably happen like Babidi’s arrival to Earth since he is endlessly searching for Buu’s seal, especially if he is gonna he training hard with his massive potential as a half-breed to protect his future to give off massive energy.

You saying something "might happen" isn't leaving things open. By that definition, every story that reached its conclusion is open-ended because something might potentially happen down the line to warrant bringing a story or character back after they were finished. Babidi is endlessly searching for Boo, okay, he already missed his window of opportunity since he's late by over a decade in the future timeline. Babidi could just as easily have come to Earth, found nothing and left, never to return. As far as the original run is concerned, Future Trunks didn't involve himself in any more disaster and if he did, the fact he doesn't go back to the past for help at any point is proof enough he was good enough to deal with it himself.

And what exactly is the conflict going to be then if Trunks isn’t in any trouble or vice versa? If everything is fine or the villain isn’t that threatening as to cause Trunks to be desperate enough to come to the past... there is literally no immediate conflict to be had in the first place unless either/or of the characters of the past or the future decide to visit each other for literally no reason.

Are you telling me you can't make a conflict out of say the Gods being mysteriously murdered? Because that sounds like a perfect way to kick off a story, some of the most powerful beings around being killed off with no obvious suspects? Sounds like a great premise for a story, especially if you have Shin or Old Kaioshin get attacked and nearly killed (if not killed outright) to kick the story off.

And even if you don’t like the initial start of concept of the apocalyptic future they put interesting and unique spins on it such as the militia, Mai, the general design of the new ruined future and how the people survive, that the people are now well aware of Trunks and his strength and support him throughout wrapped up his arc as far as that specific timeline goes (and as begrudgingly bad that tone is for the manga and anime...) Trunks’ one thing to protect was ripped away from him in a fate he could narrowly escape the second Zamasu became immortal. Once again you’re oversimplifying the takes on these things without looking into the nuances and changes.

Never said I didn't like some of the touches they add to the story, I just don't like them enough to warrant the soft-rebooting of Future Trunks' timeline which reeks of nostalgia pandering to the nth degree.

...As far as making him the central or one of the focused characters that is and it holds no weight as Trunks has no investment or personal interest into being a time cop, he is there because he is forced to and only “grows to like it.” I absolutely despise the Time Cop Trunks concept.

I don't see why following someone who doesn't like something but grows to, to varying degrees is a bad thing. One of the best parts of the Saiyan arc is Gohan being forced to fight against genocidal space conquerors at the ripe old age of 4 and learning to deal with what gets thrown at him. Seeing someone in a position they don't want to be in and figure out how to make the best of things can be just as entertaining as watching an enthusiast like Goku partake in what he loves.

You would find what you’re looking for if you decide to look closer. Mecha Freeza was setup as a subversion, not a serious return, he was a footstep to Trunks’ intro to the Android arc, his role is unlike his actual return. Golden Freeza and his return was meant to serve as a complete role reversal of Namek. Here he is in the role of Goku in his two forms. His Final Form gets whooped by Base Goku unlike before where Freeza completely destroyed him.
Golden Freeza as the forms colors hints at is in the role of SSJ Goku, he is the slightly stronger, usurper/challenger out for revenge to the defense of SSJB Goku’s calm and reserved approach as Goku is the slightly weaker in this sense. Even how Goku gets caught off-guard shows contrast as Freeza is the one who needs to retreat and Goku stays which leads him to getting blasted unlike before on Namek.
Vegeta’s is the one who has to tag in for Goku who is blasted in the chest in the end of Goku vs Freeza and Goku was saved, as opposed to when he was blasted in the chest, Goku was tagged in, it was at the beginning of the fight, and Vegeta had shortly died and couldn’t have been saved.
Even the way they Goku got blasted from in the back in the Anime contrasts how Vegeta was shot in the front.

All your point in favor of F make me like it even less, because now I can't escape the feeling of how paper thin the subversiveness actually is with such superficial alterations.

The original point of F, as I understood it, was this: Freeza is a moron who only changes superficially and losses because of it so don't half-ass your character development so to speak. The problem is, this is a whole series based around a lot of characters who constantly do the same thing over, and over again and are rewarded for it, no matter how dubious the action may be.

Worse still, the lesson Goku and Vegeta are meant to learn from the experience ring very hollow. Goku is criticized for being cocky, hence why he lets his guard down, Battle of Gods the movie resolved this character trait, it shouldn't be a thing anymore. Vegeta doesn't want to work with Goku and everyone acts like they can't do it, except they did, it's one of the high points of the Boo arc so trying to make me buy they can't do it is just laughable. Then when everything is said and done, Goku and Vegeta both laugh off the lessons they're supposed to learn and just pretend Freeza never came back and Whis didn't warn them about their personal issues.

If Toriyama really wanted to tell the story of how change is good/necessary, then he should've Battle of Gods'd F and made it more a direct criticism of how Goku & Vegeta refuse to change and what happens when Freeza, someone who does change in a meaningful way, becomes their enemy. That would be considerably more interesting and possible since ToP Freeza is basically what F Freeza should've been instead of some bizarre mix of his Namek self.

1.) apples and oranges. In the Android Arc Trunks’ help is far more second-hand and he doesn’t ask for how it went down, his struggles in the past and his training gave him the power to wreck the androids, not them directly coming to the future. Many things with Trunks in the Android Arc is far more roundabout and indirect as opposed to the many things that happen to Trunks in the FT arc was very direct and he has to face his problem and get stronger head-on

2.) dramatic irony. We know that Babidi is somewhere out there along with Dabura. And as far as their arrival time, that’s just a result of unknown factor and variables that lead to them arriving later similar to how the present androids turned out stronger than the future versions through different unknown factors.
The difference is that we know at least some form of future events can happen to Trunks and we see them happening in the form of the present. As compared to an open ending in which they show that the story or events can continue on. The same could happen with Trunks. Leaving Babidi and Dabura still out there to kill or maim far more people out in space isn’t something I’m in favor of, not to mention it’s just boring to not have any actual future events we see in the current timeline resolved and feels “incomplete.”

And being that he doesn’t come back to the future isn’t proof that he is fine, especially if given that it’s fighting something or someone WAY out of his league like the actual Majin Buu arriving. That or it could mean he died and couldn’t make it out alive like how Black nearly killed him.

3.) and what does that have to do with Trunks? Why should I remotely care if we haven’t got connected to the gods yet? How is it Goku and Vegeta’s problem when it’s the gods’ problem to deal with it?And if by Gods you mean GoD, then that’s too far out of Goku and Vegeta’s current league to deal with and the villain is already far too strong/hax to deal with. And attacking Shin and the Kais is no big feat to be impressed about, they’ve long been surpassed, the only impressive Kai in recent years was Zamasu and he is still barely Post-god SSJ2 level. And Shin and Old Kai aren’t that close to Goku and Co. to begin with.

If you’re throwing out Trunks, you’re throwing out the personal stakes and investment of the storyline as well in that they need to help out Future Trunks as they know him personally, especially Vegeta.and have to work from scratch, you can’t just throw a plot or concept at the characters and go “look at how new and non-old this concept is” the characters being %100 not involved in any past events or reason to do what they are doing or are able to abandon the plot at any time.

You have to give the characters ambition and a reason to go on in the plot and do what they do throughout it or it’ll get stale and uninvesting real quick. Having the characters be heroes and get involved in nonsense that has nothing to do with them personally is a pit amateur writers fall into all the time, not giving the characters personal drive and ambition and focusing on the concept is a great way to kill a story quick. not to mention its not Dragonball-like at all to do that.

4.) ok you’re free your opinion man. I for one like the changes and see them as enough to be warranted as their own merits to be considered their own and not under a blanket of Trunks in a pickle in the future again. So agree to disagree.

5.) the difference with that and Gohan is all in the “why” and the circumstances. Gohan’s entire journey in Z is that he has big shoes to fill and has to stand up to odds at his young age he shouldn’t be dealing with, and doesn’t enjoy it like Goku did as a kid. He has do it to protect his world and his friends, it’s all in what he has to do and what he gets out of it. Having Trunks be a forced into the Time Cop role is uninvesting if he doesn’t have a reason, circumstance, or drive to be there. You can replace him with literally any other character and it wouldn’t change a thing. He has no reason to even like being a Time Cop or wasn’t hinted to even like doing it at all.
Xenoverse fell into that trap and that’s easily my least favorite Trunks because it is so forced... and not to mention it really only bogged down to him getting that role is almost generalizing the character. It’s “Trunks = Timey Wimey” because he did time travel once...


6.) History can repeat itself in many ways, but I personally like how they did it as it adds context to how they would be if the roles were completely different as well as how the situation plays out. Goku was able to win as the big, strong, superior fighter out for revenge is because he holds himself back to think clearly in his fight with Freeza to win he does it all quick and doesn’t aim to draw anything out too much even if he currently hated Freeza with a passion. If given the chance he’d train and prepare to take down Freeza had he escaped or left in some form.
Freeza here in ROF is impatient and dives far too deep in his revenge and sadism and is completely blinded by his own rage and hatred to think clearly like Goku was on Namek. He has the exact same problems as Pre-mastery SSJ Goku has because of his own hubris to not train it where he had all the time to prepare unlike Goku who couldn’t get that privilege.

And as for the role of defensive survivor/challenger it was all in how their characters are and how they succeed/fail in their role. Goku doesn’t mind having someone be stronger than them, he doesn’t get upset when someone usurps or surpasses him in strength, his pride doesn’t get hurt even when he hears about how Freeza’s massive potential and his incredible rise in strength in 4 months, he is secure, calm, and confident in his own power to think clearly and outsmart Freeza by taking advantage of the flaws of his form, like how he has flaws as a character. He successfully defends himself from his challenger: Freeza
This contrasts how Freeza on Namek was presented the same situation. He doesn’t like the challenge, he spends his life in fear and paranoia of a rival to his strength, that’s what leads to him personally wanting to destroy the saiyans. He is insecure of his own power, irrational, and not confident in his own power from personal investment in it or having to use it in an even or fair fight, he uses it to dominate or crush them. He isn’t able to think clearly and is unable to compensate with a strategy or a way to work out his problem unlike Goku in ROF.

I feel it contextualizes the characters and their flaws rather well. You can disagree and say it’s boring, but at the end of the day that’s just subjective and left to opinion. ROF has a purpose and vision, it fulfills it’s objective.

That’s another trap that writers fall into. No one conversation, acknowledgement of their flaw, or realization of their flaw is instantly going to mean they have to develop, they need compromises and progression. Just like you can’t tell a depressed person to “get over it” and suddenly they’re all sunshine and rainbows, you can’t have a character just BAM they’re all good now from one event, it’s artificial and too quick,especially if that event hold no weight to hold itself under and is central to who they are as a person. Learning and developing is a process, not an event.

That’s the rushed and wrong way to do character development...

[SaiyanGod117]

Everything since every series ever has been about money. People gotta pay them gimmicks in the mail called bills.

In regards to Dragon Ball specifically, he's a popular character and bringing him back will make a lot of people go see the movie and buy the blu-rays.

Well obviously. You know full well thats not what I was saying.
What I mean is the entire revival has been about draining every last penny from a series that ended back in 1997.

Dragon Ball has been squeezing out pennies from the fandom WAY before this "revival" of the franchise.

Just because its normal, doesn’t mean its right. In some cases, an author will choose money over telling a story, and you get products like Super, GT, and Evolution. In other cases, an author will earnestly choose to tell a story while the money is just the fruits of their labor and you get products like One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Game of Thrones, Vagabond, etc. Although that’s not all the time, but it’s usually when creators are sincere about their work is when they create their best, in which is what I want for DB.

[HeroR]

Well obviously. You know full well thats not what I was saying.
What I mean is the entire revival has been about draining every last penny from a series that ended back in 1997.

Dragon Ball has been squeezing out pennies from the fandom WAY before this "revival" of the franchise.

Just because its normal, doesn’t mean its right. In some cases, an author will choose money over telling a story, and you get products like Super, GT, and Evolution. In other cases, an author will earnestly choose to tell a story while the money is just the fruits of their labor and you get products like One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Game of Thrones, Vagabond, etc. Although that’s not all the time, but it’s usually when creators are sincere about their work is when they create their best, in which is what I want for DB.

Too bad Dragon Ball was never that. It was always about money since Chapter 1. Krillin was created to make Dragon Ball more popular.

And Super whether you like it or not was created because Toriyama started to give a damn about the franchise again after DBE. Before then, he didn’t want to do anything Dragon Ball even when Toei begged him.

[SaintEvolution]

Money.

It's all money.

Everything since Battle of Gods has been about money.

Everything since 1984 was about money. Toriyama and Shueisha never produced the series thinking "Oh, let's do an excelent and solid story with good plot and quality because we love the art and quality and stuff and we are so altruistic to present a good story to the world".

The entire franchise was produced because of money, and not because Toriyama is altruistic or something. The entire franchise.

[DragonBallLove]

Before some smartass comes at me about Zamasu and Black, yes, they were unique characters.

No, they are not. They are the Western Kaioshin and Xicor/Psycho from Toyble's AF.

Mediocre Toyotaro be damned.

Everything since 1984 was about money. Toriyama and Shueisha never produced the series thinking "Oh, let's do an excelent and solid story with good plot and quality because we love the art and quality and stuff and we are so altruistic to present a good story to the world".

The entire franchise was produced because of money, and not because Toriyama is altruistic or something. The entire franchise.

As my understanding of it goes, it was about work (Dr. Slump have finished) and doing something interesting, at least, what would be interesting for Toriyama (despite he didn't like to work on it). Torishima urged Toriyama to do something he would like, and Toriyama's wife spoke about, IDK what kung fu film Toriyama was watching obssesively at the moment (could be Knockabout, Drunken Master or Enter the Dragon).

[Master Xar]

Dragon Ball has been squeezing out pennies from the fandom WAY before this "revival" of the franchise.

Just because its normal, doesn’t mean its right. In some cases, an author will choose money over telling a story, and you get products like Super, GT, and Evolution. In other cases, an author will earnestly choose to tell a story while the money is just the fruits of their labor and you get products like One Piece, Hunter x Hunter, Game of Thrones, Vagabond, etc. Although that’s not all the time, but it’s usually when creators are sincere about their work is when they create their best, in which is what I want for DB.

Too bad Dragon Ball was never that. It was always about money since Chapter 1. Krillin was created to make Dragon Ball more popular.

And Super whether you like it or not was created because Toriyama started to give a damn about the franchise again after DBE. Before then, he didn’t want to do anything Dragon Ball even when Toei begged him.

I will never understand this big boogie man of “Well so and so’s author is obviously just doing it for the money he doesn’t care about the story as if they know the authors and the staff personally. All because they have sour grapes the story wasn’t up to their “standards.” It’s that that leads to those creator dropping the franchise like George Lucas and personally insulted over a movie.

It’s extremely pretentious. Toriyama if his interviews and his history as being firm and opinionated when he wants wasn’t obvious enough. Something in the story he wants changed, he’ll change it just like how he did Goku becoming an adult. If he didn’t care about Dragonball he would’ve left Toei to do their rendition of BOG and just left it at that and he picked up his second wind as far as Dragonball goes.

[SaiyanGod117]

Too bad Dragon Ball was never that. It was always about money since Chapter 1. Krillin was created to make Dragon Ball more popular.

Yes, that’s certainly true, but money isn’t the only motivation like how you’re trying to frame it. To be honest, I’m pretty sure even one of Oda’s motivations is still making money, though at a certain point money just becomes a byproduct, that’s why some manga or stories become prolonged and go past the point of their supposed planned endings. For the reason that, the author wants still want to tell more of their story, not everything is cynical as you paint it, even one of Toriyama main inspiration when he was writing DB was making a story for young boys. Also, sure their might be ulterior motives for making a character, however, it’s main purpose is to enhance the story.

And Super whether you like it or not

I don’t like Super, I think it’s horrible.

was created because Toriyama started to give a damn about the franchise again after DBE. Before then, he didn’t want to do anything Dragon Ball even when Toei begged him.

Ok, but he wasn’t the one who wrote Super, Toei were, and they thought about the financial numbers before story and Super was what we got as a result. Just like previously with GT and Fox with Evolution.

[HeroR]

Too bad Dragon Ball was never that. It was always about money since Chapter 1. Krillin was created to make Dragon Ball more popular.

Yes, that’s certainly true, but money isn’t the only motivation like how you’re trying to frame it. To be honest, I’m pretty sure even one of Oda’s is still making money, though at a certain point money just becomes a byproduct, that’s why some manga or stories become prolonged and go past the point of their supposed planned endings. For the reason that, the author wants to tell more of their story, not everything is cynical as you paint it, even one of Toriyama main inspiration when he was
writing DB was making a story for young boys.

And Super whether you like it or not

I don’t like Super, I think it’s horrible.

was created because Toriyama started to give a damn about the franchise again after DBE. Before then, he didn’t want to do anything Dragon Ball even when Toei begged him.

Ok, but he wasn’t the one who wrote Super, Toei were, and they thought about the financial numbers before story and Super was what we got as a result. Just like previously with GT and Fox with Evolution.

For Toriyama when he started Dragon Ball back in the day it was money. Toriyama is and was never Oda.

Good for you. Still doesn’t changed that Super happened because Toriyama started to care about the franchise again and is more passionate than he was doing the final years of Dragon Ball.

Toriyama wrote the outline for Super and Toei and Toyo adapted the outline. Toriyama even oversees both since Jiren was supposed to have Toppo’s personality before Toriyama corrected them. So it’s nothing like GT or Evolution.

[SaiyanGod117]

For Toriyama when he started Dragon Ball back in the day it was money.

I never denyed it, after all whose going to be doing all hard work for free. Be as it may, whether you like it or not money wasn’t the only motivation. If everything was really about money, he would have just stopped at Dr. Slump or like another user said a post up he would let the editorial and corporate staff take the reins. Really to say it’s all about money is a spit face to not just Toriyama, but plenty of other mangaka, voice actors, and hard working people of Japan.

Toriyama is and was never Oda.

He doesn’t have to be Oda, all he has to be is human, being a passionate and hardworking mangaka is just an added benefit that ties the knot.

Good for you.

Thank you.

Still doesn’t changed that Super happened because Toriyama started to care about the franchise again and is more passionate than he was doing the final years of Dragon Ball.

Ok, his exhaustion of DB near its final years has been well documented, and it wasn’t because of money but because of his editor and Shonen Jump due to DB being a pillar for the magazine.

Toriyama wrote the outline for Super and Toei and Toyo adapted the outline.

A barebones outlines, Toei filled out pretty much everything inbetween and there was lot inbetween.

Toriyama even oversees both since Jiren was supposed to have Toppo’s personality before Toriyama corrected them.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, Toei wanted Jiren to be talkative type, but Toriyama corrected them and said he was suppose to be the slient type, so instead they gave it to Toppo.

So it’s nothing like GT or Evolution.

It definitely is, it’s nothing but fanservice, poor writing, bad animation and art( more often than not), and rehashed and reduced ideas. If wasn’t for Super being apart of DB franchise and having all the characters everyone knows and loves, it would have ended in the first 25 episodes, instead of 131. Because, all the details, explosions, fidelity mean nothing, if you don't believe in those characters and the story their telling you.

[Lord Frieza]

Because Broly practically prints money for one, and a lot of fans love the big green goof ball for another which feeds into the first point.


In heroes alone he the most used and upgraded character outside of the OC's and saiyan heroes. He's almost step for step with Goku and Vegeta.

[PsionicWarrior]

I think the marketing department is the people responsible for coming up with Broly lol
fans like Broly, let's put Broly in the movie lol
Toriyama says "yeah ok whatever" lol
Now I hope it's not the same Broly than in the 90's movies lol

[HeroR]

For Toriyama when he started Dragon Ball back in the day it was money.

I never denyed it, after all whose going to be doing all hard work for free. Be as it may, whether you like it or not money wasn’t the only motivation. If everything was really about money, he would have just stopped at Dr. Slump or like another user said a post up he would let the editorial and corporate staff take the reins. Really to say it’s all about money is a spit face to not just Toriyama, but plenty of other mangaka, voice actors, and hard working people of Japan.

Toriyama is and was never Oda.

He doesn’t have to be Oda, all he has to be is human, being a passionate and hardworking mangaka is just an added benefit that ties the knot.

Good for you.

Thank you.

Still doesn’t changed that Super happened because Toriyama started to care about the franchise again and is more passionate than he was doing the final years of Dragon Ball.

Ok, his exhaustion of DB near its final years has been well documented, and it wasn’t because of money but because of his editor and Shonen Jump due to DB being a pillar for the magazine.

Toriyama wrote the outline for Super and Toei and Toyo adapted the outline.

A barebones outlines, Toei filled out pretty much everything inbetween and there was lot inbetween.

Toriyama even oversees both since Jiren was supposed to have Toppo’s personality before Toriyama corrected them.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, Toei wanted Jiren to be talkative type, but Toriyama corrected them and said he was suppose to be the slient type, so instead they gave it to Toppo.

So it’s nothing like GT or Evolution.

It definitely is, it’s nothing but fanservice, poor writing, bad animation and art( more often than not), and rehashed and reduced ideas. If wasn’t for Super being apart of DB franchise and having all the characters everyone knows and loves, it would have ended in the first 25 episodes, instead of 131. Because, all the details, explosions, fidelity mean nothing, if you don't believe in those characters and the story their telling you.

That’s what I said about Jiren and shows Toriyama’s involvement. It was never all Toei doing Super.

It isn’t since Toriyama had little involvement with GT and had nothing to do with the story. Compared to Super where Toriyama himself writes the outline, which is the basic story, that Toei and Toyo fill in and even do corrections. And Toriyama was outright ignored during the production of DBE.

By that logic, GT should have lasted longer since it has Dragon Ball in the name and DBE should have sold gangbusters.

[Lord Frieza]

I think the marketing department is the people responsible for coming up with Broly lol
fans like Broly, let's put Broly in the movie lol
Toriyama says "yeah ok whatever" lol
Now I hope it's not the same Broly than in the 90's movies lol

To paraphrase the Final Fantasy Abridged series...


"Slap a Mako Reactor on him and your pretty much printing money".

[SaiyanGod117]

That’s what I said about Jiren and shows Toriyama’s involvement. It was never all Toei doing Super.

Still, it’s more Toei’s doing than Toriyama’s doing. The series directors and producers have more involvement in the anime than Toriyama.

It isn’t since Toriyama had little involvement with GT and had nothing to do with the story. Compared to Super where Toriyama himself writes the outline, which is the basic story, that Toei and Toyo fill in and even do corrections.

I’m means that’s more involvement than GT, but it’s still a far cry from him drawing and penning the story word from word himself. All he mostly does, is create the initials character designs for some characters and a small draft or barebones outline to some. For instance, plot points from A to B comes from him, but everything inbetween comes from Toyo or Toei.

You have a little freedom to suggest changes to Toriyama's outline, so what's the biggest alteration you've made?

Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself.

Between getting the outline and the final phase, what is the most difficult part of making the manga?

What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.

And Toriyama was outright ignored during the production of DBE.

That’s besides the point.

By that logic, GT should have lasted longer since it has Dragon Ball in the name and DBE should have sold gangbusters.

It did last longer, it was going to fail regardless, but the DB name attached gave it a little bit of borrowed time. And Evolution sure wouldn’t have made $50 million at the box office if didn’t have DB name either, it would have been more like $10 million or lower. Brand strength isn’t bulletproof.

[HeroR]

That’s what I said about Jiren and shows Toriyama’s involvement. It was never all Toei doing Super.

Still, it’s more Toei’s doing than Toriyama’s doing. The series directors and producers have more involvement in the anime than Toriyama.

It isn’t since Toriyama had little involvement with GT and had nothing to do with the story. Compared to Super where Toriyama himself writes the outline, which is the basic story, that Toei and Toyo fill in and even do corrections.

I’m means that’s more involvement than GT, but it’s still a far cry from him drawing and penning the story word from word himself. All he mostly does, is create the initials character designs for some characters and a small draft or barebones outline to some. For instance, plot points from A to B comes from him, but everything inbetween comes from Toyo or Toei.

You have a little freedom to suggest changes to Toriyama's outline, so what's the biggest alteration you've made?

Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself.

Between getting the outline and the final phase, what is the most difficult part of making the manga?

What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.

And Toriyama was outright ignored during the production of DBE.

That’s besides the point.

By that logic, GT should have lasted longer since it has Dragon Ball in the name and DBE should have sold gangbusters.

It did last longer, it was going to fail regardless, but the DB name attached gave it a little bit of borrowed time. And Evolution sure wouldn’t have made $50 million at the box office if didn’t have DB name either, it would have been more like $10 million or lower. Brand strength isn’t bulletproof.

They have more direct involvement since they do most of the leg work, but as one of the producers pointed out, Toriyama has the final say on everything and you don't go against god.

That is far more involvement than GT. He did several dozen character designs with Toyo and Toei helping him for the TOP, made the basic outline, was opened to changes in the outline like adding Vegito, and made changes like saying that Jiren isn't talkive. For GT, all he did was the logo, gave its name, and did sketches for Goku, Pan, and Trunks. He had nothing to do with the story.

This is also what Toyo said on the matter:

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

Not really since DBE was made without any of Toriyaam's input even when he tried to give it.

Why would it fail anyway? Especially in the US when GT came out when Dragon Ball was still popular. It was so popular that Dragon Ball Z Uncut aired every weekend on a prime night slot during the time GT was around. Even when GT came back in other countries, it never caught on while Super did. And again, if all anything need is Dragon Ball, Evolution would have been far more successful. I mean, that's the thinking that goes into the Transformer movies that keep getting in the 30% on Rotten Tomato. And funny enough, Dragon Ball Super won the best running series on CR in 2017. This is best stuff like MHA being there, being the hot stuff at the moment. So are you telling me that Super is only getting money and even critical praised because it has 'Dragon Ball' in its name, but for some reason this gracious shower was never given to GT or Evolution? And most of DBE numbers come from China.