What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:26 am

Grimlock wrote:All in the meanwhile, King Vegeta, father of the deuteragonist of this franchise, an important character that led the Saiyans during the war against Tsufurujins and took over the planet, a cool and interesting character that needs more character development and screentime, is once again thrown away in favor of crap fanservice. :|

If there is a benevolent god out there, why does he allow such atrocities like this to happen?
A part of this movie is set in the past so we might see him.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:33 am

Money.

It's all money.

Everything since Battle of Gods has been about money.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 am

Master Xar wrote:And yes the people and the conflict generally taking place in the future is a big change and serves the characters struggles well. As I said. Trunks has to find his own way out of this since he can’t keep running to the past for his troubles, that was his flaw as a character Trunks didn’t learn his lesson. This is a clip as Trunks’ big intro of coming to the past to help the past and give advice, as to where now he goes to the past to get help this time.
Except Trunks does just run to the past to save his troubles, if he didn't run away, Black would've won without anyone being the wiser. Also, Trunks going to the past and asking for help is THE reason he succeeds at all against the Androids. Trying to twist that into some kind of flaw he keeps doing is not only incorrect but also doesn't line up with what actually happened before.
Master Xar wrote:Yeah as I said it was completely open as far as things that would almost inevitably happen like Babidi’s arrival to Earth since he is endlessly searching for Buu’s seal, especially if he is gonna he training hard with his massive potential as a half-breed to protect his future to give off massive energy.
You saying something "might happen" isn't leaving things open. By that definition, every story that reached its conclusion is open-ended because something might potentially happen down the line to warrant bringing a story or character back after they were finished. Babidi is endlessly searching for Boo, okay, he already missed his window of opportunity since he's late by over a decade in the future timeline. Babidi could just as easily have come to Earth, found nothing and left, never to return. As far as the original run is concerned, Future Trunks didn't involve himself in any more disaster and if he did, the fact he doesn't go back to the past for help at any point is proof enough he was good enough to deal with it himself.
Master Xar wrote:And what exactly is the conflict going to be then if Trunks isn’t in any trouble or vice versa? If everything is fine or the villain isn’t that threatening as to cause Trunks to be desperate enough to come to the past... there is literally no immediate conflict to be had in the first place unless either/or of the characters of the past or the future decide to visit each other for literally no reason.
Are you telling me you can't make a conflict out of say the Gods being mysteriously murdered? Because that sounds like a perfect way to kick off a story, some of the most powerful beings around being killed off with no obvious suspects? Sounds like a great premise for a story, especially if you have Shin or Old Kaioshin get attacked and nearly killed (if not killed outright) to kick the story off.
Master Xar wrote:And even if you don’t like the initial start of concept of the apocalyptic future they put interesting and unique spins on it such as the militia, Mai, the general design of the new ruined future and how the people survive, that the people are now well aware of Trunks and his strength and support him throughout wrapped up his arc as far as that specific timeline goes (and as begrudgingly bad that tone is for the manga and anime...) Trunks’ one thing to protect was ripped away from him in a fate he could narrowly escape the second Zamasu became immortal. Once again you’re oversimplifying the takes on these things without looking into the nuances and changes.
Never said I didn't like some of the touches they add to the story, I just don't like them enough to warrant the soft-rebooting of Future Trunks' timeline which reeks of nostalgia pandering to the nth degree.
Master Xar wrote:...As far as making him the central or one of the focused characters that is and it holds no weight as Trunks has no investment or personal interest into being a time cop, he is there because he is forced to and only “grows to like it.” I absolutely despise the Time Cop Trunks concept.
I don't see why following someone who doesn't like something but grows to, to varying degrees is a bad thing. One of the best parts of the Saiyan arc is Gohan being forced to fight against genocidal space conquerors at the ripe old age of 4 and learning to deal with what gets thrown at him. Seeing someone in a position they don't want to be in and figure out how to make the best of things can be just as entertaining as watching an enthusiast like Goku partake in what he loves.
Master Xar wrote:You would find what you’re looking for if you decide to look closer. Mecha Freeza was setup as a subversion, not a serious return, he was a footstep to Trunks’ intro to the Android arc, his role is unlike his actual return. Golden Freeza and his return was meant to serve as a complete role reversal of Namek. Here he is in the role of Goku in his two forms. His Final Form gets whooped by Base Goku unlike before where Freeza completely destroyed him.
Golden Freeza as the forms colors hints at is in the role of SSJ Goku, he is the slightly stronger, usurper/challenger out for revenge to the defense of SSJB Goku’s calm and reserved approach as Goku is the slightly weaker in this sense. Even how Goku gets caught off-guard shows contrast as Freeza is the one who needs to retreat and Goku stays which leads him to getting blasted unlike before on Namek.
Vegeta’s is the one who has to tag in for Goku who is blasted in the chest in the end of Goku vs Freeza and Goku was saved, as opposed to when he was blasted in the chest, Goku was tagged in, it was at the beginning of the fight, and Vegeta had shortly died and couldn’t have been saved.
Even the way they Goku got blasted from in the back in the Anime contrasts how Vegeta was shot in the front.
All your point in favor of F make me like it even less, because now I can't escape the feeling of how paper thin the subversiveness actually is with such superficial alterations.

The original point of F, as I understood it, was this: Freeza is a moron who only changes superficially and losses because of it so don't half-ass your character development so to speak. The problem is, this is a whole series based around a lot of characters who constantly do the same thing over, and over again and are rewarded for it, no matter how dubious the action may be.

Worse still, the lesson Goku and Vegeta are meant to learn from the experience ring very hollow. Goku is criticized for being cocky, hence why he lets his guard down, Battle of Gods the movie resolved this character trait, it shouldn't be a thing anymore. Vegeta doesn't want to work with Goku and everyone acts like they can't do it, except they did, it's one of the high points of the Boo arc so trying to make me buy they can't do it is just laughable. Then when everything is said and done, Goku and Vegeta both laugh off the lessons they're supposed to learn and just pretend Freeza never came back and Whis didn't warn them about their personal issues.

If Toriyama really wanted to tell the story of how change is good/necessary, then he should've Battle of Gods'd F and made it more a direct criticism of how Goku & Vegeta refuse to change and what happens when Freeza, someone who does change in a meaningful way, becomes their enemy. That would be considerably more interesting and possible since ToP Freeza is basically what F Freeza should've been instead of some bizarre mix of his Namek self.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:53 am

JazzMazz wrote:To be fair, they kind of gave King Vegeta his due in filler. Specifically the filler of DBZ epiosde 78. Everything we really need to know about the character I believe is very well presented and solidified in that episode.
They didn't give him anything and if that was enough, I wouldn't be asking for King Vegeta. The character, despite being who he is, has no appearance in the manga at all and made a ridiculous cameo in Movie 14.

I must add to my previous comment since apparently we have to be in the "bring back old characters" ground now:

All in the meanwhile, Bardock and Gine, parents of the protagonist of this franchise, were last seen in a terrible "manga" that did not contribute to their characterization at all.

All in the meanwhile, Gogeta, a cool fusion between the main protagonists of this franchise, was thrown away of his appearance in Future Trunks saga in favor of another crap fanservice that didn't add anything interesting except the Final Kamehameha technique.

All in the meanwhile, Janemba, an awesome movie character with a cool design and with the best techniques this franchise has ever seen, is thrown away in favor of the return of another movie character who is worse than anything and everything. With a reboot in his characterization by giving him a fine personality, this one had the potential to be one of the greatest characters.
sintzu wrote:A part of this movie is set in the past so we might see him.
I don't think it matters now. If I was "hyped" in the slightest for the movie, it is surely a bummer now. If he appears in the movie, I'll wait for someone to upload his part on Youtube.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by sintzu » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:58 am

Grimlock wrote:If I was "hyped" in the slightest for the movie, it was surely bummed now. If he appears in the movie, I'll wait for someone to upload his part on Youtube.
Or you could see it while watching the movie to fairly judge it. I understand not being on board for the idea but you should at least give it a chance.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:00 pm

It's pretty obvious. Broly is still insane popular. However, I've let the news stew for the last 12 hours and I honestly feel that making Broly the main character is a big mistake. As with anything, it has the potential to be fantastic, and I'm not ruling that possibility out. But it also has a high chance of disaster.

I like Broly. I'm not a die-hard fan, but I enjoy his movie, I enjoy his rampage, and I would be lying if I said I didn't like his what-if forms thanks to Heroes. Most people that like Broly like him as he is now. This new Broly is going to be the first time we've seen him from the pen of Toriyama. And I see this going one of three ways

A) This new Broly is far different from his original counterpart, alienating the fans of classic Broly
B) He's far too similar to the classic Broly, alienating those who hate Broly as a character and those that were expecting different
C) Toriyama surpasses all expectations and the movie turns out to be one of the best, with the new spin on Broly being fresh and exciting

I'm remaining hopeful and optimistic. I still plan to see it when it's released stateside. But I'm also frustrated and concerned. I'm concerned this is going to be a big mistake, and I'm frustrated because I wanted something truly NEW. Not something old we know with a new coat of paint on it
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:06 pm

sintzu wrote:Or you could see it while watching the movie to fairly judge it. I understand not being on board for the idea but you should at least give it a chance.
I have already said that I don't care about the "present part" of the movie at all, and now that has been confirmed that the villain the main cast will face is a terrible old character, it's the ultimate confirmation that I won't watch this movie. The movie should have been solely about the past of the Saiyans, without the main cast in it, so the first problem with this movie is the decision to include them.

In the slightest chance that most of the movie focuses on the "past part" (which is the part that really matters), I might (and I can't stress "might" enough) give it a chance and consider watching it. Otherwise I'll pass, I don't want to leave the cinema upset, just like it was with Movie 15.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by BrolyKale » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:11 pm

Its like Harley Quinn she wasn't canon, but later on became canon due to her popularity. They changed her origins etc its the same thing with Broly, since he is pretty popular they decided to add him in the main story. We will have two different Broly, two variations of him, so two different characters.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:20 pm

To cash in on future prospects, I just hope the movie is good.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:58 pm

Two reasons:

1. Toriyama earnestly thinks the Broly is an intriguing enough concept to provide his own spin on the character
2. Broly is incredibly popular in Japan and in large parts of the Western fandom and someone in the Dragon Ball room wanted to cash in on that popularity.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Cetra » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:05 pm

Because its the only way to get official BrolyxKale hentai that Toei can sell us and that those who say "wah, old movies are blathisandthat" cannot escape this way from the temptation of two sweating muscle mountains.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:05 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Money.

It's all money.

Everything since Battle of Gods has been about money.
Everything since every series ever has been about money. People gotta pay them gimmicks in the mail called bills.

In regards to Dragon Ball specifically, he's a popular character and bringing him back will make a lot of people go see the movie and buy the blu-rays.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:12 pm

*Insert generic whining about modern Dragon Ball here. Insert comment about only being for merchandise sales here*

Broly is a popular character and he wants to show his interpretation of the character. A new and improved character

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:19 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Money.

It's all money.

Everything since Battle of Gods has been about money.
Everything since every series ever has been about money. People gotta pay them gimmicks in the mail called bills.

In regards to Dragon Ball specifically, he's a popular character and bringing him back will make a lot of people go see the movie and buy the blu-rays.
Well obviously. You know full well thats not what I was saying.
What I mean is the entire revival has been about draining every last penny from a series that ended back in 1997.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:49 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Money.

It's all money.

Everything since Battle of Gods has been about money.
Everything since every series ever has been about money. People gotta pay them gimmicks in the mail called bills.

In regards to Dragon Ball specifically, he's a popular character and bringing him back will make a lot of people go see the movie and buy the blu-rays.
Well obviously. You know full well thats not what I was saying.
What I mean is the entire revival has been about draining every last penny from a series that ended back in 1997.
Dragon Ball has been squeezing out pennies from the fandom WAY before this "revival" of the franchise.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:53 pm

Grimlock wrote:I have already said that I don't care about the "present part" of the movie at all, and now that has been confirmed that the villain the main cast will face is a terrible old character, it's the ultimate confirmation that I won't watch this movie. The movie should have been solely about the past of the Saiyans, without the main cast in it, so the first problem with this movie is the decision to include them.

In the slightest chance that most of the movie focuses on the "past part" (which is the part that really matters), I might (and I can't stress "might" enough) give it a chance and consider watching it. Otherwise I'll pass, I don't want to leave the cinema upset, just like it was with Movie 15.
Agreed. I only care about the origin of the Saiyans. What exactly happened on Sadala before it blew up, the war between the Saiyans. The present stuff is not that interesting but of course, I'll still watch this movie.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:02 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Agreed. I only care about the origin of the Saiyans. What exactly happened on Sadala before it blew up, the war between the Saiyans. The present stuff is not that interesting.
Interesting plot points? Nothing about that matters! Let's just keep bringing back old characters that don't need to return (while giving a terrible excuse for Bardock not being brought back: his power level!11!1!!). Here it's all about fanservice!
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:16 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Money.

It's all money.

The entirety of the Dragon Ball franchise has been about money.
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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by HeroR » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:58 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Money.

It's all money.

Everything since Battle of Gods has been about money.
Dragon Ball has alway been about money. Toriyama fully admitted that he wrote Dragon Ball for money.
Grimlock wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Agreed. I only care about the origin of the Saiyans. What exactly happened on Sadala before it blew up, the war between the Saiyans. The present stuff is not that interesting.
Interesting plot points? Nothing about that matters! Let's just keep bringing back old characters that don't need to return (while giving a terrible excuse for Bardock not being brought back: his power level!11!1!!). Here it's all about fanservice!

I find this funny coming from a Heroes fan. How many times have Heroes brought back a villain?
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: What's the point of bringing (Movie 20 spoilers) back?

Post by HeroR » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:03 pm

coola wrote:Toriyama confirmed, that only thing new Broly will have in common with old one, is its look, my question is, why making him look like Broly, if it will be completely different character? i respect Toriyama, but his recent stuff is definition of playing it safe, and fanfiction coming to life :( (And by that, i mean of course using it by author in official story :) )
Re-imagine of older characters is as common as dirt. Comics, tv shows, and video games do it all the time. And all fanfiction means is 'something written by fans'.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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