Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PFM18
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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:58 pm

BWri wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
BWri wrote: Yeah, the DB power creep was already bad, then Super put it on steroids and the return of Frieza on forward made it a parody of itself. ToP just let the genie completely out of the bottle and let us know that none of our power estimates matter, for entertainment purposes a character will be as strong as they need to be. So yeah, Broly will easily be at least as strong as Jiren at some point in the movie. I'm curious about what plot based copout they'll come up with for my Beerus and Whis didn't know about this guy. I wonder if he's from universe 6 or another universe.
I can't help but be puzzled by this conclusion. How do you figure DBS made a parody of itself? And could you elaborate on "a character will be as strong as they need to be"?
First with Frieza and Tagoma's four months of training. They didn't even have a good montage to make that one make sense. I could buy Frieza getting stronger in 4 months if they showed him training with even remotely a fraction of the intensity as the main squad did in Z perhaps on a planet with unheard of levels of gravity, but alas, he simply tortured a Zarbon level guy for four months and said guy got millions--likely billions--of times stronger from said torture. Shark jumped. Between that and the ToP we have more examples, then more in the ToP itself like with Roshi's off-screen gains, but mainly the issue is with #17. The parody kicks into full gear with how #17 explains his new strength in the manga and what his "training" consists of. I already thought it was poorly executed in the anime, but could kinda get behind it as Toriyama mentioned #17 and #18 being altered on a molecular level, but in the manga he literally does pretty much nothing outside of light exercise. If that's not a parody of Toriyama's own "prodigy" trope, I don't know what is.
The manga is trash. In the anime he says he trains but it is left up to interpretation what kind of training he did. The guy has a lot of potential and he trained for fourteen years and gained this boost. I don't think it is particularly unreasonable that he gained that much power.

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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by BWri » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:23 pm

PFM18 wrote:
BWri wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
I can't help but be puzzled by this conclusion. How do you figure DBS made a parody of itself? And could you elaborate on "a character will be as strong as they need to be"?
First with Frieza and Tagoma's four months of training. They didn't even have a good montage to make that one make sense. I could buy Frieza getting stronger in 4 months if they showed him training with even remotely a fraction of the intensity as the main squad did in Z perhaps on a planet with unheard of levels of gravity, but alas, he simply tortured a Zarbon level guy for four months and said guy got millions--likely billions--of times stronger from said torture. Shark jumped. Between that and the ToP we have more examples, then more in the ToP itself like with Roshi's off-screen gains, but mainly the issue is with #17. The parody kicks into full gear with how #17 explains his new strength in the manga and what his "training" consists of. I already thought it was poorly executed in the anime, but could kinda get behind it as Toriyama mentioned #17 and #18 being altered on a molecular level, but in the manga he literally does pretty much nothing outside of light exercise. If that's not a parody of Toriyama's own "prodigy" trope, I don't know what is.
The manga is trash. In the anime he says he trains but it is left up to interpretation what kind of training he did. The guy has a lot of potential and he trained for fourteen years and gained this boost. I don't think it is particularly unreasonable that he gained that much power.
I look to both the anime and manga to help me figure out what Toriyama wants from the story. Between the two, you can see that Toriyama didn't even try to justify 17's strength. He just brought him back and went forward with it. If he had a good reason, I'm sure Toyotaro would have provided it.

The anime only scores a few more points because it at least hinted that 17 did more to gain his power, but we can only accept this after seeing what Frieza can do in 4 months. Beforehand, none of us would believe Earth bound training could get #17 past Buu, let alone SSG and the SSB we saw in RoF. And honestly, if we go by Dragon Ball Super's logic, #18 should've always been relevant strength-wise. If #17 can get as strong as he did by training with no partners (at least strong ones), in Earth's gravity, and experiencing no real threats even close to the like of King Piccolo then #18 who trains with Krillin and has fought all the big baddies after Cell first-hand, should be much more powerful or at least more relevant than she has been. I know #17 was built stronger, but they are the same design, so it makes no sense for him to be that much stronger than her.

It's all plot based. Toriyama seems to prefer characters he hasn't used in a while. That's why the likes of Frieza, #17, Roshi, and Future Trunks get such boosts over recent battle stalwarts like Piccolo, 18, and Tien who are there to be worfed before Vegeta.
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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:39 pm

BWri wrote:Between the two, you can see that Toriyama didn't even try to justify 17's strength. He just brought him back and went forward with it. If he had a good reason, I'm sure Toyotaro would have provided it.
This is the proverbial "mixing and matching" between the anime and the manga. The problem is that they are too different to do this and the fact that it is in the manga does not indicate very mucuh about Toriyama's rationalization. Sure, he didn't care enough to give a reason in his outline, but his explanation for 17's strength was certainly not the one that was given in the manga or it would have been in both mediums.

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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:52 pm

Broly is likely end up AT LEAST as strong as a GoD, somehow.
Mostly because anything weaker would be defeated just by Vegeta and Goku teaming up, which would kill the tension.

That said, it's EXTREMELY unlikely he'd be as strong as Jiren, unless they want Goku spam Mastered Ultra Instinct.
Because, as Vados_chan stated, Jiren is ASTOUNDING more powerful than a GoD(unless said GoD mastered Ultra Instinct, I guess).

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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by BWri » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:09 pm

PFM18 wrote:
BWri wrote:Between the two, you can see that Toriyama didn't even try to justify 17's strength. He just brought him back and went forward with it. If he had a good reason, I'm sure Toyotaro would have provided it.
This is the proverbial "mixing and matching" between the anime and the manga. The problem is that they are too different to do this and the fact that it is in the manga does not indicate very mucuh about Toriyama's rationalization. Sure, he didn't care enough to give a reason in his outline, but his explanation for 17's strength was certainly not the one that was given in the manga or it would have been in both mediums.
"mixing and matching" as you put it is the best way to figure out what's in Toriyama's draft. If it's in both, it's something Mr. Toriyama created and put some emphasis on. Piccolo being eliminated by a bug was the same in both down to the details of how it happened so we know it's something Toriyama focused on. With 17's strength being somewhat explained in one medium and treated as somewhat of a joke in another, we can infer that Toriyama either didn't think it was important enough to detail, didn't think to detail it, had no desire to detail it, or treated it with a tongue-in-cheek manner as the anime somewhat does and the manga full on embraces.
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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by shadd21 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:03 pm


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Re: Do you think Broly will be as strong as Jiren/the GoDs?

Post by Meshack » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:00 am

Broly is definitely stronger than Jiren.

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