Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

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Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by superfan2024 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:18 am

In the Future Trunks/Zamasu arc outlines originally done by Toriyama, Vegetto was never set to appear and it would have been just Golu and Vegeta fighting Fused Zamasu (not sure if they were supposed to fight together or take turns or if one SSB was enough, my memory’s a little hazy off that special interview). It was Toyotaro’s decision to bring back Vegetto, ig the anime followed along, then Toyo followed along with what he originally created a bit later. He said it was to please the fans and had to make a scenario up to make the fusion actually needed (in anime and manga Fused Zamasu overpowering both Goku and Vegeta individually). Generally, I was pretty pleased with episode 66. The ep certainly brought immense hype. Of course we have to whole Spirit Ball Sword and the whole Vegetto fighting for like 8 minutes but the ep still brought me satisfaction and hype. I prefer the manga’s fight of Vegetto vs Fused Zamasu much more as it was more entertaining to me and made more sense to be all together, but thoughts? Would you have preferred if Goku and Vegeta were just whooping Fused Zamasu’s ass until Trunks slices him then he becomes Infinite?

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Simere » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:54 am

I would prefer if fusions never appeared again. Vegetto's appearance at least brought with it the new knowledge of potara that spelled the end for the future of fusion. In that regard, his inclusion was satisfying.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:49 am

Simere wrote:I would prefer if fusions never appeared again. Vegetto's appearance at least brought with it the new knowledge of potara that spelled the end for the future of fusion. In that regard, his inclusion was satisfying.
Why do people here like to shit on fusions? To me, it's one of the most interesting concepts of the entire franchise. Combining bodies with someone else and obtaining a new character with the personality traits of both was always fascinating to me. It's not even been overused too much, it appears very few times throughout the series, and when it does, it creates some of the most hype moments. People dislike how it never gets the job done, and I agree, that's a little annoying, but at the same time, many think it would be lame to finish a great fight with a fusion victory.
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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:17 pm

To be honest, I am glad that Toriyama decided to modify his original draft a little. I mean, don't you think that it would feel very anti-climatic if Fused Zamasu, the long-awaited fusion of two twisted Gods, the final villain of the Future Trunks arc, were weaker than two non-fused Super Saiyan Blue characters combined? I, for one, think that it would feel very anti-climatic and disappointing.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:42 pm

Yes, it would certainly be better than bringing Vegetto again for no reason. I would lose the Final Kamehameha scene but oh well, a sacrifice must be made.

If they had to merge, then it should have been Gogeta or Vegenks. New stuff, other possibilities.
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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Simere » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:45 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Simere wrote:I would prefer if fusions never appeared again. Vegetto's appearance at least brought with it the new knowledge of potara that spelled the end for the future of fusion. In that regard, his inclusion was satisfying.
Why do people here like to shit on fusions? To me, it's one of the most interesting concepts of the entire franchise. Combining bodies with someone else and obtaining a new character with the personality traits of both was always fascinating to me. It's not even been overused too much, it appears very few times throughout the series, and when it does, it creates some of the most hype moments. People dislike how it never gets the job done, and I agree, that's a little annoying, but at the same time, many think it would be lame to finish a great fight with a fusion victory.
Do they? There's not enough hatred for fusions around here if you ask me, though I have quite the appetite for hating fusions. They were cool enough in the Boo arc but that's where they should have ended. I like Goku and I like Vegeta. When they fuse they no longer exist. Why would I like that?

Even if fusion doesn't happen, the mere fact that it can happen creates problems, namely with establishing drama. Quoting myself:
There was no reason not to fuse before, except pride. That was literally the only reason, because even when we still thought it to be permanent there were ways to undo it if they won. So the entire time you're watching them fight an enemy they "can't beat", you'd know things aren't that bad because they haven't resorted to fusing yet, as we know they will if it comes down to it.

The retcon fixed that. Now, for strong fighters at least, power reducing the duration makes the fusion a weak option. Now they won't fuse not (just) because of pride, but because fusion is no longer a path to power for them. And it will only get worse(read: better) the stronger they individually get. If they want to be the strongest they have to do it as individuals, as it should be.
Beyond that, while fusion subsumes the characters temporarily, it threatens to do so permanently if left unchecked. As it did to Goten and Trunks. Their function in DB stories now is primarily to be a vehicle for Gotenks, because Gotenks is "awesome" and "fun" and you "have" to have him. They're stuck together in their stunted growth. I see early signs of this cancer with Kafla.

Less importantly, the debates about who the dominant personality of a fusion is are highly obnoxious. Feels like many Vegetto fans are actually just Vegeta fans using another outlet to argue Vegeta is better than Goku.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:52 pm

I think it's reasonable it takes a fusion to fight a fusion. From that point i can understand TOEI brought Vegetto Blue in.
There was relative fan service in this arc, but the story in itself was highly original (maybe one of the best of the whole franchise), so it didn't bothered me.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Jackalope89 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:34 pm

I liked it. It gave purpose to having such a fusion, and showed how desperate the situation had become (and gave a far better explanation to why the original Vegito fusion ended than "bad air").

It gave the situation more gravity than it would have without. Prior, Black and Zamasu had given Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks all they could handle. By fusing, Fused Zamasu had to be more even more powerful, to the point where they needed Vegito back to, at the very least, soften him up for Trunks to land the finishing blow (on the physical form).

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:39 pm

Simere wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Simere wrote:I would prefer if fusions never appeared again. Vegetto's appearance at least brought with it the new knowledge of potara that spelled the end for the future of fusion. In that regard, his inclusion was satisfying.
Why do people here like to shit on fusions? To me, it's one of the most interesting concepts of the entire franchise. Combining bodies with someone else and obtaining a new character with the personality traits of both was always fascinating to me. It's not even been overused too much, it appears very few times throughout the series, and when it does, it creates some of the most hype moments. People dislike how it never gets the job done, and I agree, that's a little annoying, but at the same time, many think it would be lame to finish a great fight with a fusion victory.
Do they? There's not enough hatred for fusions around here if you ask me, though I have quite the appetite for hating fusions. They were cool enough in the Boo arc but that's where they should have ended. I like Goku and I like Vegeta. When they fuse they no longer exist. Why would I like that?

Even if fusion doesn't happen, the mere fact that it can happen creates problems, namely with establishing drama. Quoting myself:
There was no reason not to fuse before, except pride. That was literally the only reason, because even when we still thought it to be permanent there were ways to undo it if they won. So the entire time you're watching them fight an enemy they "can't beat", you'd know things aren't that bad because they haven't resorted to fusing yet, as we know they will if it comes down to it.

The retcon fixed that. Now, for strong fighters at least, power reducing the duration makes the fusion a weak option. Now they won't fuse not (just) because of pride, but because fusion is no longer a path to power for them. And it will only get worse(read: better) the stronger they individually get. If they want to be the strongest they have to do it as individuals, as it should be.
Beyond that, while fusion subsumes the characters temporarily, it threatens to do so permanently if left unchecked. As it did to Goten and Trunks. Their function in DB stories now is primarily to be a vehicle for Gotenks, because Gotenks is "awesome" and "fun" and you "have" to have him. They're stuck together in their stunted growth. I see early signs of this cancer with Kafla.

Less importantly, the debates about who the dominant personality of a fusion is are highly obnoxious. Feels like many Vegetto fans are actually just Vegeta fans using another outlet to argue Vegeta is better than Goku.
Well, I personally love Vegito because it combines the qualities I love the most in both Goku and Vegeta, so I find it hard not to love him, they both still live in him, but I guess that's personal. The pride excuse, I don't really mind it that much because it fits with their personalities, as opposed to Goten and Trunks, who immaturily abuse it, and I think that creates a good contrast between fathers and kids. Also, fusion's their gimmick, everyone has one, and they're probably going to grow out of it if Super reaches post End of Z. Kefla was probably a one done deal, I doubt the girls are going to easily gain access to another set of Potara. The personality debates are nothing more than headcanon, we know the fusion is a mashup of both character's traits, and I think everyone should leave it at that, I'm not the kind of Vegeta fan that likes to shit on Goku (he's my 2nd favorite), and I think there are better ways to do so instead of saying he's not the dominant fusion personality. Also, many people shit on fusions on this site, I guarantee you.
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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:27 pm

No as things would seem a bit underwhelming if Goku and Vegeta could still take them on despite fusing.
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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 pm

Simere wrote:Beyond that, while fusion subsumes the characters temporarily, it threatens to do so permanently if left unchecked. As it did to Goten and Trunks. Their function in DB stories now is primarily to be a vehicle for Gotenks, because Gotenks is "awesome" and "fun" and you "have" to have him. They're stuck together in their stunted growth. I see early signs of this cancer with Kafla.

Less importantly, the debates about who the dominant personality of a fusion is are highly obnoxious. Feels like many Vegetto fans are actually just Vegeta fans using another outlet to argue Vegeta is better than Goku.
I think Gotenks suffers more than the other fusions do because his component characters are bite-sized versions of other already existing characters. Trunks is...well, Trunks, and Goten is is a dead ringer for Goku. But Kid Trunks is very different from Future Trunks and lacks most of the personality traits that made him appealing in the first place (just my opinion) while Goten is something of a middle ground between Goku and Gohan and he doesn't contrast either of them as strongly as Gohan did to Goku. Goku, Vegeta, Caulifla and Kale don't really have anyone that overshadows them like that. People say Kale is just female Broly but her personality is just as distinct from his as Goku's is from Bardock's.

Plus if Kid Trunks matures then you lose a lot of the basis for Gotenks' overblown Leeroy Jenkins personality and that seems to be one of the reasons people like him in the first place.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:12 pm

I enjoyed his appearance. Although I don't like the retcon, it does have the way for future fusions with more interesting designs. The Metamoran fusion was a combination of the two with the Metamoran vest and clothing. But with Potara, we get to see an actual fusion of the two beings, clothes and all.

Loved seeing Vegito, Merged Zamasu, and Kefla. I hope we'll see more Potara fusions in the future, even if they're just restricted to what if characters in the video games

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:01 am

I'm happy we got to see him again. Even if it's not what Toriyama originally intended, the reasoning for it made sense in-universe. The fact that Goku and Vegeta would fuse to fight another fusion, but refuse to consider it against Jiren later on (even after it became an option) keeps with the idea that the two don't like doing it and need it to be *more* than a last resort. Plus, it was a damn cool fight. Vegetto's swagger is entertaining, and it's best done sparingly and in short bursts.

Plus, having Vegetto Blue in Super as an answer to GT's SS4 Gogeta is neat. Like, it's one of those little things that distinguishes the two series. Inb4 the movie ruins it by adding Blue Gogeta like the rumours are hinting...

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Simere » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:31 am

Kataphrut wrote:I'm happy we got to see him again. Even if it's not what Toriyama originally intended, the reasoning for it made sense in-universe. The fact that Goku and Vegeta would fuse to fight another fusion, but refuse to consider it against Jiren later on (even after it became an option) keeps with the idea that the two don't like doing it and need it to be *more* than a last resort. Plus, it was a damn cool fight. Vegetto's swagger is entertaining, and it's best done sparingly and in short bursts.
Saying they refused to consider it is a bit strong. They didn't consider it. They weren't asked to consider it so they couldn't refuse. In any case, the retcon already fixed having to consider Vegetto against Jiren. Besides which, at what point would they have considered fusion to actually be their last resort? Goku would have viewed awakening UI the better route, and by the time that failed him Vegeta was out of the ring, with both of them depleted anyhow. Not to mention fusion was deemed tactically inferior to retaining a numbers advantage.

Reviewing:

BoG: SSG was a better option
RoF: Freeza wasn't strong enough to beat just one of them, simply teaming up would have sufficed if it came down to it
U6: Tournament rules forbid it and the stakes were low anyway
Black: The first time the chips were down and they had no other feasible options they fused

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:14 am

Simere wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:I'm happy we got to see him again. Even if it's not what Toriyama originally intended, the reasoning for it made sense in-universe. The fact that Goku and Vegeta would fuse to fight another fusion, but refuse to consider it against Jiren later on (even after it became an option) keeps with the idea that the two don't like doing it and need it to be *more* than a last resort. Plus, it was a damn cool fight. Vegetto's swagger is entertaining, and it's best done sparingly and in short bursts.
Saying they refused to consider it is a bit strong. They didn't consider it. They weren't asked to consider it so they couldn't refuse. In any case, the retcon already fixed having to consider Vegetto against Jiren. Besides which, at what point would they have considered fusion to actually be their last resort? Goku would have viewed awakening UI the better route, and by the time that failed him Vegeta was out of the ring, with both of them depleted anyhow. Not to mention fusion was deemed tactically inferior to retaining a numbers advantage.

Reviewing:

BoG: SSG was a better option
RoF: Freeza wasn't strong enough to beat just one of them, simply teaming up would have sufficed if it came down to it
U6: Tournament rules forbid it and the stakes were low anyway
Black: The first time the chips were down and they had no other feasible options they fused
Ok, whatever. They didn't explicitly refuse it, but they never considered it at any point either. Even as he was flogging them and options started running low, both insisted on trying to beat him their own way because that's who they are. Never mind that Jiren is much stronger than Fused Zamasu, the stakes are much higher and the option was totally there. They could have asked for the earrings at any point between the start of the rematch and Vegeta's elimination, which is quite a bit of time.

And the numbers loss from fusion didn't mean much because U7 was ahead of U11 on numbers for the whole fight. Hell, when Caulifla and Kale fused, that put U6 on par with U11, when the whole reason they were fighting Goku was to avoid having to fight Jiren's team. It was still the best option for them at the time.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by Simere » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:53 am

Kataphrut wrote:Even as he was flogging them and options started running low, both insisted on trying to beat him their own way because that's who they are. Never mind that Jiren is much stronger than Fused Zamasu, the stakes are much higher and the option was totally there. They could have asked for the earrings at any point between the start of the rematch and Vegeta's elimination, which is quite a bit of time.
There's a difference between options running low and only having one option left. And, again, fusion was established as an inferior option. They "insisted" on trying their own way because their own ways had a better shot of winning(especially Goku's). If they saw no chance of winning except by fusion they would have.

If SSG didn't exist and Beerus could have been beaten by fusion, they would have. They wouldn't have said, "Oh, you're not a fused fighter, it wouldn't be right, go ahead and kill all of us", because that's not what it comes down to. What it comes down to is: are the stakes high enough, and do they have another shot? And what fusion's continued viable existence meant was that a high point of drama could never be reached.
And the numbers loss from fusion didn't mean much because U7 was ahead of U11 on numbers for the whole fight. Hell, when Caulifla and Kale fused, that put U6 on par with U11, when the whole reason they were fighting Goku was to avoid having to fight Jiren's team. It was still the best option for them at the time.
They weren't fighting Goku to avoid U11. They were fighting Goku because they thought doing so would make them stronger, which they needed to be if they were going to win. What's best for U6 isn't necessarily what's best for U7.

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Re: Would you have preferred if Vegetto never appeared in Super like Toriyama Originally Intended?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:21 am

Yeah, I don't like Vegetto, Gotenks or Gogeta. I think it would've been cooler if Gokuu and Vegeta had defeated Merged Zamasu with a combination play. Having them master Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan at that moment would've been a nice touch, too. After their play I would've had the Potara break and then have Trunks kill Zamasu and Gokuu Black.
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