Zamasu (Not Black) is very underrated...

[SupremeKai25]

No, I think we can still have a legit discussion if only we would listen to the other arguments.

I am able to conduct civilzed discussions, and tend to get along well with others while maintaing my composure. In fact, I haven't insulted anyone, whereas it was I who was attacked repeatedly for having a relatively "unpopular" opinion of this forum.

However I don't understand how Frieza's exsistence as a being proves thier incompetence.

Frieza was clearly a threat to the world of Gods, given how his empire was turning entire planets into ravaged wastelands. If Beerus had done his job as a God of Destruction, Universe 7 wouldn't have been humiliated as one of the universes with the lowest mortal level in the multiverse, and wouldn't have had to participate in the terrible Tournament of Power.

they WILL take actions as was the case with Majin Buu. The only problem then was not beacuse they didn't do anything, but beacuse they were to weak, which hardly can be considered as their fault.

And what was Beerus doing? Napping. Napping, while billions of innocents were being slaughtered by Buu.

As someone already said in the topic, struggle is a driving force in the universe. Thanks to that we can learn, grow, know our mistakes and limitations. Do you think that any mortal would have a high level of intelligence if they didn't experience evil, war, or suffering?

In real life, it might be true. In the Dragon Ball world, it isn't. The universe existed long before the first mortals were created, and it certainly wasn't driven by struggle and war.

The target of a God shouldn't be to side with anyone, rate life, or believe in thier petty ideals but create life, let them be, ocasionally watch over them and guard the whole universe from harm.

This is a flawed law. Why shouldn't the creators meddle in the wars of the creations? It's like saying that a teacher should just let two kids punch each others, but watch over them from a distance and protect the classroom from harm.

The Gods followed this law. And they lost control of the world, as mortals had grown in power exponentially. Therefore, they could no longer be called Gods.

I cannot understand how anyone could call Zamasu a 'morally gray character'.

I have never denied that his degenerate actions showed his sadism and cruelty. But he still had very good intentions, given the fact that he wanted multiversal peace, everlasting order, and a golden world that could no longer be stained by the violence of war, or the chaos of anarchy.

You should read this page, It's fascinating:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... dExtremist

You could say that Zamasu was just a "false" well-intentioned extremist, someone who constantly praised order and justice, but in reality just wanted to kill people. But I'm not convinced. If Zamasu just wanted to murder people, why would he desire all mortals to be extinguished? No mortals = No people left to kill. So Zamasu's goal, apparently, doesn't boil down to a mad desire to kill people. Killing mortals isn't the end, but the means to an end.

Apart from this observe how he hunts down human beings in his timeline. It's a game to him and his actions really resemble the future Androids' acftions at that point.

That's just manga Zamasu. Manga Zamasu is the classic Dragon Ball villain who just wants to kill people for fun. In fact, manga Zamasu was always mad. He always wanted to kill mortals. Unlike anime Zamasu, who had doubts at first, and did not initially despised mortals. It was only after he was humiliated by the lowly Goku, that he started to hate their arrogance, and fear their power. In the anime, Zamasu was never shown killing Humans for sport.

For me he looks like an inexperienced sociopathic teenager, who doesn't understand the world so instead starts shouting pieces of cleverly glued phrazes in your face.

He understood the world. He witnessed countless wars conducted by Humans, so he clearly had substantial evidence to back his facts. In addition, he was a mere apprentice, yet he was hailed as a genius even by his superiors, so he clearly had some understanding of the world.

I cannot tell whether Zamasu believed in anything he said or didn't but this makes little difference.

He believed in his ideals, otherwise he wouldn't have cried for them.

Tell me, if he'd really believe in this utopia bullshit why did he start his little rampage instead of making this world with the Dragon Balls? I think beacuse it wouldn't involve bloodshed.

Most likely because he thought it was something he had to do. It was his duty as a God, to fix the mistakes of the deities who originally created the cosmos, and failed to dominate mortals as they should have.

Instead what Zamasu would create, would be whole universe of what we saw in Trunk's timeline. Destroyed, barren world with dying wastelands, terrified mortals and a tyrant watching in panic whether everything is the way he wants.

Not really. Fused Zamsau stated the following: "Now to rend the land, and cleanse it of all that is impure. So begins the jubilee, heralding the arrival of a divine new world". Soon after, we see the Divine Absolute Lightning tear the very surface of the planet apart. What was Fused Zamasu's plan? Crack the core of the planet, literally wash everything away, and build a new world on the remains of the old one. Fused Zamasu could create new plants, new territories, new animals, even new mrotal races. He was a Supreme Kai. And as Old Kai clearly stated once, Supreme Kais create and give life.

Seeing a planet in which neanderthals battle each other proves mortals need to die? Please.

Not just a single planet. Countless others, too.

Also, they weren't just fighting each others. They didn't learn from any of their mistakes at all, barely improved in a thousand years, and even assaulted a God.

Consider how much time it took human species to evolve from our australopithecus to homo sapiens and start thinking, bulding, creating instead of killing and beating each other up.

I am pretty sure that if we Humans discovered that we were created by a single individual, and we decided to attack that individual one day... we wouldn't be spared. You respect your superiors. Otherwise, you pay the consequences. It's simple.

[GokuHater]

Well I don't intend to attack anyone here, on the contrary I think the discussion is quite interesting. It's actually interesting to me DB is capable of triggering a discussion like this, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Frieza was clearly a threat to the world of Gods, given how his empire was turning entire planets into ravaged wastelands [...]

And what was Beerus doing? Napping. Napping, while billions of innocents were being slaughtered by Buu.

Ah, well. Point taken. You are right in this one, especially taking into consideration Frieza's potential to go Golden and obtain basically god ki.

On the other hand it's kind of hard to discuss Beerus actions in both Buu and Frieza sagas as you know... Toriyama will not have invented him for 20/30 years yet but what do we have left...

If Beerus had done his job as a God of Destruction, Universe 7 wouldn't have been humiliated as one of the universes with the lowest mortal level in the multiverse

Maybe but please note mortal level as mesaured by Zeno and GP is kind of bullshit and unreliable. Off course it would be viable showing the average force of universe 7 but less than 5% of the universe are actually one of the strongest beings in all universes [ Goku, Vegeta ].

In real life, it might be true. In the Dragon Ball world, it isn't. The universe existed long before the first mortals were created, and it certainly wasn't driven by struggle and war.

Maybe. On the other hand DB kind of wants to emulate the real world, like any kind of media, doesn't it?
Also in DB struggle being a path to power is actually a theme.
Watch Tien Shinan, Piccolo, Vegie - all of them being a villain at some point, side with the 'good guys' beacuse of the struggles they've been through both with Goku and stronger threatening powers. Going into Zamasu way of thinking all of them should be erased the moment they were introduced. How would it help in a bigger picture though?

Or look at Frieza. Goku's and generally Saiyan struggle with him helped in unlocking super Saiyan, followed by the future tranformations, which unlocked Goku's potential. So once again this battle helped him grow... And learn.

This is a flawed law. Why shouldn't the creators meddle in the wars of the creations? It's like saying that a teacher should just let two kids punch each others, but watch over them from a distance and protect the classroom from harm.

If this was decided by a wise, experienced god, who knows mortals, life and actually is able to call what's a threat than sure, I agree with that one.
However we're talking about Zamasu - an insecure, sociopath teenager, who doesn't know how to understand life so he pulls of beatifully sounding phrazes from his ass and feeds them to himself.
The point about Zamasu himself is what I'm trying to convey here - not the ideal themselves.

The Gods followed this law. And they lost control of the world, as mortals had grown in power exponentially. Therefore, they could no longer be called Gods.

But who's the one to decide that?
Zamasu? How come and who gave him that right? Off course he is welcome to believe in whatever he wishes but as life shows wishes seldom are reality.
Does he have any objective, outside evidence of his words? Anything to back him up?

The whole point of Zamasu character arc is to show that he had basically no one to confront his ideals with and that they did not hold up with life itself. Teaming up and fusing later with Goku Black is a way of showing the viewers/readers that the only one who could stand up with his talking... Was himself.

Should the creators play a bit more with Zamasu's ideals showing a little truth to his blabbering instead of making him the cruel bastard? Maybe. Maybe that would be more believable. But as DBS is a kids show and not a philosophicall essay than I guess thats to be expected.
[qoute]You could say that Zamasu was just a "false" well-intentioned extremist, someone who constantly praised order and justice, but in reality just wanted to kill people. But I'm not convinced. If Zamasu just wanted to murder people, why would he desire all mortals to be extinguished? No mortals = No people left to kill. So Zamasu's goal, apparently, doesn't boil down to a mad desire to kill people. Killing mortals isn't the end, but the means to an end.[/quote]
And while I agree a well intentioned extremist works for a fascinating character none of this meets Zamasu. His praising order and justice are just praising his way of thinking of what order and justice are. And of course in his fantasies it is him, who stands at the top of it all and is the only one right.
That isn't extrimism. That's narcism and sick glorification of one's self. Imagine for a moment such person in real life. His delusions and lack of any self awareness would result in a catastrophy.
And I repeat... If Zamasu's goal is o live his utopia why not use the dragon god for this?
It's
* faster
* more efficient
* less violent
There is basically no reason why he decides to kill everyone himself apart of being a psycho. Or just trying to make himself a sufferer for his justice... Which also makes him a psycho ;p

That's just manga Zamasu

And that's 100% not true, my friend.
The reason is just beacuse I never actually read the DBS manga. Anything I got from Zamasu, his actions, the way his character arc unraveled for me, the vibe he gave me is anime only. Maybe one day I will get to the manga but for know even anime only Zamasu doesn't need to do much to convince me he is mad from the start. As for clear heart... Well, a sociopath can have a very clear heart at the beggining ;p

He understood the world. He witnessed countless wars conducted by Humans, so he clearly had substantial evidence to back his facts. In addition, he was a mere apprentice, yet he was hailed as a genius even by his superiors, so he clearly had some understanding of the world.

But I cannot see it. Sure, maybe they tell us about it but show don't tell please. The example of Zamasu witnessing the world was shown by only the Barbarians which is a t5errible example as I have written and wuill write yet. Also his behaviour with Goku doesn't strike me as a genius when a mere mortal basically wipped the floor with him and made him look like a weeping child. One could argue why does he deserve to be a god then?

He believed in his ideals, otherwise he wouldn't have cried for them.

I strongle believe the crying scene was just done to show us Zamasu lunacy and how far it has gotten. He is actually crying for himslef in that moment beacuse in his delusions he is suffering and being the only one in this world, who can do right. He seems to be disgusted by his actions [ though really he loves them ] but will take it upon himself to further them. Mere thinking this way may prove one's unstable mind but to also cry beacuse of it, you have to be a total whacko ;p
Even Vegeta in the scene was confused before all else.

Not really. Fused Zamsau stated the following: "Now to rend the land, and cleanse it of all that is impure. So begins the jubilee, heralding the arrival of a divine new world". Soon after, we see the Divine Absolute Lightning tear the very surface of the planet apart. What was Fused Zamasu's plan? Crack the core of the planet, literally wash everything away, and build a new world on the remains of the old one. Fused Zamasu could create new plants, new territories, new animals, even new mrotal races. He was a Supreme Kai. And as Old Kai clearly stated once, Supreme Kais create and give life.

There seems to be a wide difference between Zamasu's words and actions an it should be noted. Going by Zamasu words alone off course everything about him is going to be perfect, justiceable [is this a word?], glorious. The point is Zamasu cannot be seen by his words but by his actions which - as I've written - don't hold up in the real life. His little crusade is only a whacko's wet dream, a child who parties or plays with matches the moment mommy is off the horizont.

Is there truth to his ideals? Possibly so but they cannot be gaged properly as they are only used as an explanation for lunatic's rampage. They also appeared in the mind of said lunatic so we cannot even look at them objectively.
[/quote]
Not just a single planet. Countless others, too.[/quote]
Right.
You have made a good point with Frieza and Majin Buu. But how other planet's wars, conflicts a prove to destroy all mortals?

barely improved in a thousand years

Again please look a history of human evolution as the barbari are clearly ment to be a represantation of us - that's at least what I got of it. And I assure you - in a 1000 years no neanderthal became homo sapiens. And homo sapiens to Einstein also didn't take just 1000 years

It's laughable that Zamasu - again being called a genius - is appalled that a race of neanderthals did not invent quantum physics or basic psychology in 1000 years. What exactly did he expect in this deity brain of his?

and even assaulted a God[..]
.and we decided to attack that individual one day... we wouldn't be spared. You respect your superiors

True but why do you assume they knew they were attacking a god?
What I saw was a babari just seeing an unexplained thing/a threat and did what he knew to do best at that point. Also to protect himself.
Sounds quite normal to me.

[Lionel]

I could understand framing early discontented Zamasu as a morally grey character. He harboured doubts and expressed questions that to most people would have seemed reasonable to give. Dare I say early Zamasu is one of my favourite characters in the entire show. My grievances with his characterisation start to occur around the same time when he began his indiscriminate slaughter of every ningen in existence. There was no nuance or introspection throughout the whole process. It was wanton destruction with none of the patience or acute observation skills that we saw from Zamasu earlier. He degenerated into a murder happy sociopath who took unnecessary pleasure in tormenting the people he was putting to death.

What the storyboard needed to do was provide some further layers to his character while easing off the demented smirking and psychopathic prolonging of killing. Taking all of these lives should have inspired disappointment with how ningen have sullied the "gifts" they were granted. It should have posed as a sobering process, one that makes Zamasu understand the grim responsibilities that come with the authority that deities hold -- even if what he's doing escapes the conventions of the role he was set to inherit. What he was doing could have enabled Zamasu to develop a newfound appreciation for what it is that the Hakaishin do, what their place is in the universe. Taking it one step further, it might have even caused Zamasu to feel some measure of contempt for most of the Hakaishin because of their seeming lack of attachment for the wide-scale death they're causing. Sound familiar? Well, acknowledging the same blood that's sullied his own hands while expressing the uneasiness that comes with the burden he's placed on his own shoulders could have gone a long way towards making Zamasu seem less insane and more "misguided well-intentioned" (however way you can do that with the conditions of the universe that Zamasu is seeking to precipitate).

Next to having a more pensive outlook on the whole situation, Zamasu could have done with a proper ministerial observationist's perspect by having monitored the various worlds he's seeking to wipe out and determining if they can in fact be saved. Species like the Yardratians and the Namekians would have represented such analytical rationality. More than that, Zamasu should have clarified that his intent was only to destroy the ningen who are debased but not their souls who would be judged in the afterlife and left to experience. Instead of just presenting himself as a dictator who strong-arms even other deities into doing his bidding, such as the meeting with Zuno, Zamasu should have come to understand the necessity for organisation and the apportioning of duties out to others like Yemma. Give him more of a rationalist's touch here and the character seems a slight bit less deranged, in my opinion.

Also, the points of contention shouldn't have been limited to just the ningen. Zamasu held some valid points regarding the flagrant disregard for heavenly decree even by other deities. You have Hakaishin turning a blind eye to a time manipulator exploiting the space-time continuum right in front of their eyes. The final authority of the entire multiverse is a detached child despot who shamelessly dangles the lives of countless people across all of the universes in his hands while haphazardly adjusting the rules for events simply for his own amusement. What Zamasu needed to was more put emphasis on these facts and make the protagonists understand that while, yes, they are looking to put a stop to his own personal aims, they're still hypocritically turning a blind eye to Zeno's absolute authority and the abuse that he basks in with it. They can't do anything about it? What, you're telling me that in a world of infinite possibilities, you can't think of any kind of solution for neutralising the Omni-King? To Zamasu, I might think that he's perceiving the Saiyans, Shin, and Gowasu as attack dogs who are unwittingly protecting the system that keeps the more dangerous entities like Zeno afloat.

It's got holes in it, definitely, but those are some of the adjustments I feel could have been made to give Zamasu's character more dimension.

[Champa The Destroyer]

Honestly, the real thing that makes the entire Zamasu Arc sad is that with his genius and potential, he could have brought change to the Universes. He could have been the god that stood out from the rest and improved all life. Instead, he used his mentality and power for terrible atrocities that did nothing to help.


SupremeKai25, Trunks's time meddling was considered a sin by the gods, but him doing that in the first place saved all the Universes, including the gods, because without time meddling, Goku and the others would have died, Jiren would have won the TOP, and his selfish wish would cause Zeno to eliminate everything. In addition, even IF Zamasu killed all mortals, what next? There's no way he can defeat the Grand Priest, and he's downright stupid to challenge Zeno. And, even if he didn't challenge either of them, we know that eventually Zeno was going to have a TOP whether Goku brought it up or not. And when Zeno realizes that he can't, due to no mortals, Zeno would be angry. And who would have caused Zeno to be angry? Zamasu. Zeno would erase Zamasu and his "utopia." So either way, Zamasu's logic is flawed and his plan was doomed to fail.

[SupremeKai25]

I know this thread "ended" last week, But I was just rewatching the Future Trunks arc, and eventually Future Zamasu said "All this destruction was unfortunate but necessary to achieve our virtuous plan, Project Zero Mortals!". So this proves that Zamasu's goal did not boil down to butchering innocents, and he actually didn't enjoy that, in fact he thought that it was unfortunate to kill so many mortals. But he also realized that it was necessary to achieve his utopia. Fascinating. How could that meaningful line elude me?! This single line proves that Zamasu is not just a bloodthirsty sociopath who wants to kill everyone, like some around here believed.

[dbgtFO]

I know this thread "ended" last week, But I was just rewatching the Future Trunks arc, and eventually Future Zamasu said "All this destruction was unfortunate but necessary to achieve our virtuous plan, Project Zero Mortals!". So this proves that Zamasu's goal did not boil down to butchering innocents, and he actually didn't enjoy that, in fact he thought that it was unfortunate to kill so many mortals. But he also realized that it was necessary to achieve his utopia. Fascinating. How could that meaningful line elude me?! This single line proves that Zamasu is not just a bloodthirsty sociopath who wants to kill everyone, like some around here believed.

Which episode?

In any case what I was missing from Zamasu was an acknowledgement that there are indeed good humans, but they tend to be in the minority, with not enough power to actually change anything, even if they can see what the future holds for humanity.
If this wasn't a kid's show he could have been more than just a blatantly evil guy and instead better justify his plan with the fact that good people might exist, but they are outnumbered and have no power to get rid of bad elements and are not guaranteed to produce offspring who will carry on from where they left off and so it will end in self destruction like it has done countless times on other worlds.

[SupremeKai25]

Which episode?

Episode 60.

In any case what I was missing from Zamasu was an acknowledgement that there are indeed good humans, but they tend to be in the minority, with not enough power to actually change anything, even if they can see what the future holds for humanity.
If this wasn't a kid's show he could have been more than just a blatantly evil guy and instead better justify his plan with the fact that good people might exist, but they are outnumbered and have no power to get rid of bad elements and are not guaranteed to produce offspring who will carry on from where they left off and so it will end in self destruction like it has done countless times on other worlds.

Because Zamasu never had the chance to meet good humans (this is his stupid teacher's fault). He only ever met primitive and savage humans (not just the babarians, but countless other mortals spcies that he had been observing as well), or Goku, who is a battle-obsessed childish freak.

Actually, it's all Gowasu's fault. If he had brought Zamasu to a planet inhabited by intelligent mortals, Project Zero Mortals would have never happened. Gowasu indirectly caused Project Zero Mortals.

[SaiyanGod117]

Which episode?

Episode 60.

In any case what I was missing from Zamasu was an acknowledgement that there are indeed good humans, but they tend to be in the minority, with not enough power to actually change anything, even if they can see what the future holds for humanity.
If this wasn't a kid's show he could have been more than just a blatantly evil guy and instead better justify his plan with the fact that good people might exist, but they are outnumbered and have no power to get rid of bad elements and are not guaranteed to produce offspring who will carry on from where they left off and so it will end in self destruction like it has done countless times on other worlds.

Because Zamasu never had the chance to meet good humans (this is his stupid teacher's fault). He only ever met primitive and savage humans (not just the babarians, but countless other mortals spcies that he had been observing as well), or Goku, who is a battle-obsessed childish freak.

Actually, it's all Gowasu's fault. If he had brought Zamasu to a planet inhabited by intelligent mortals, Project Zero Mortals would have never happened. Gowasu indirectly caused Project Zero Mortals.

No, it’s Zamasu’s own fault for believing the conceptions he does about Mortals, and if he wasn’t smart enough to know there would be a biological and mental difference between a newly evolving species and a intelligently developed one. Then, by and large, he obviously wasn’t fit to be a Supreme Kai, as evidently shown he’s to naive and negligent even for a Surpeme Kai in training.

[Master Xar]

I know this thread "ended" last week, But I was just rewatching the Future Trunks arc, and eventually Future Zamasu said "All this destruction was unfortunate but necessary to achieve our virtuous plan, Project Zero Mortals!". So this proves that Zamasu's goal did not boil down to butchering innocents, and he actually didn't enjoy that, in fact he thought that it was unfortunate to kill so many mortals. But he also realized that it was necessary to achieve his utopia. Fascinating. How could that meaningful line elude me?! This single line proves that Zamasu is not just a bloodthirsty sociopath who wants to kill everyone, like some around here believed.

Yes, but his facial expressions and actions give him away, he very clearly takes a joy in doing this, or at the bare minimum is indulging in his “godly duty” of killing mortals which may or may not be an excuse if he weren’t and he truly didn’t want to kill them he could have simply wished them away when he had the chance. But out of his on hubris or madness he completely lets the opportunity slip by because whether he didn’t say it or not, he took SOME sort of enjoyment in doing all this. In either his ego or sadistic evil or madness within himself he WANTED to kill the mortals himself no matter how much he wants to deny it.

And that’s his problem he can’t deal [/i] with the idea of gods or mortals being flawed in any way. He wants to reach a world of perfection he cannot reach without making everyone equal in mind, in body, and in spirit.

He couldn’t even deal with the reality that he himself was flawed. It’s a pity.

[dbgtFO]

He couldn’t even deal with the reality that he himself was flawed. It’s a pity.

"Judge Claude Frollo longed to purge the world of vice and sin.
And he saw corruption everywhere except within."

This lyric from The Hunchback of Notre Dame also applies well to Zamasu.

[Master Xar]

He couldn’t even deal with the reality that he himself was flawed. It’s a pity.

"Judge Claude Frollo longed to purge the world of vice and sin.
And he saw corruption everywhere except within."

This lyric from The Hunchback of Notre Dame also applies well to Zamasu.

Yeah it’s a great quote man. It’s such a pity because he has so much potential and has some valid point within his logic, but he is blinded by his Black and White view on his world and the hunger and drive to bend the world to his view without looking into the others or the world around him. He was an immature sheltered man that dove too far into his own ideals and view of the world to be humble, sit down and learn about the world in totality.

[Kokonoe]

I'd say it's both Zamasu's and Gowasu's fault.

Like yeah, it should've been obvious to Zamasu, but obviously he was having issues so I have no idea why the fuck Gowasu thought it was a great idea to show him savages instead of, I don't know, showing peaceful earthlings by chance?

You're trying to convince someone with savages with a terrible concept of "we do nothing, we observe". Observe...for what purpose? He never truly states why.

[Master Xar]

I'd say it's both Zamasu's and Gowasu's fault.

Like yeah, it should've been obvious to Zamasu, but obviously he was having issues so I have no idea why the fuck Gowasu thought it was a great idea to show him savages instead of, I don't know, showing peaceful earthlings by chance?

You're trying to convince someone with savages with a terrible concept of "we do nothing, we observe". Observe...for what purpose? He never truly states why.

It’s not a bad idea itself. At least from Gowasu. He brought the time rings as well to show the future of what would be a savage race progressing into a sophisticated and refined race. He just didn’t execute it the right way to convince Zamasu (who was already pretty stubborn enough to not understand the lesson Gowasu was trying to teach)

He should of done one of two things. From the possibly most effective example to the least effective

1.) explain to Zamasu how mortals have to progress, even if slow those Babarians were evolving, just like how we went from Neanderthals to sophisticated and refined society, the Babarians regardless of those thousands of years into the future did progress.

2.) give a more clear or faster example of a race progressing for Zamasu to better understand his lesson.


My point being there is a clear miscommunication, both are at fault for not understanding each other, but Zamasu is far more in the wrong here, Zamasu didn’t try to understand what Gowasu was trying to say and was too blinded by his views and current outlook. He is too arrogant to take a step back and understand his viewpoint. He is too biased and stubborn.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu was clearly promising and good. Gowasu himself realized that Zamasu's heart was pure, clean, holy without sin. Pure. At the beginning. But then Zamasu saw two different mortals threaten a God, and so his doubt became hatred. Perhaps if his master had realized the gravity of the situation, he would have insisted with his teachings about the role of mortals and Gods. A student is not to blame for the stupidity of his teacher. But a teacher is to blame for the failure of his student, much more than the student himself. It's also why Gowasu cried and said that he, too, failed Zamasu. Zamasu: The most promising character in Dragon Ball, sadly misguided by an incompetent master and surrounded by violent mortals.

Imagine if Zamasu had been tutored by a good teacher, who clearly understood the depth of his pupil's fear, and knew how to convince him that not all mortals are evil. Zamasu would have been the greatest Supreme Kai in history, one who would tighten his grip on the universe, one who would actually uphold the sacred laws of the Gods, and one who had a strong sense of justice.

Oh well. At least there was some justice for Zamasu, when the people of the other universes realized that Goku is just a fight-obsessed freak who doesn't care about billions of innocents dying so long as he can have his twisted fun. Even Goku admitted that he only selfishly cares about his friends.

[Bergamo]

I'd say it's both Zamasu's and Gowasu's fault.

Like yeah, it should've been obvious to Zamasu, but obviously he was having issues so I have no idea why the fuck Gowasu thought it was a great idea to show him savages instead of, I don't know, showing peaceful earthlings by chance?

You're trying to convince someone with savages with a terrible concept of "we do nothing, we observe". Observe...for what purpose? He never truly states why.

It’s not a bad idea itself. At least from Gowasu. He brought the time rings as well to show the future of what would be a savage race progressing into a sophisticated and refined race. He just didn’t execute it the right way to convince Zamasu (who was already pretty stubborn enough to not understand the lesson Gowasu was trying to teach)

He should of done one of two things. From the possibly most effective example to the least effective

1.) explain to Zamasu how mortals have to progress, even if slow those Babarians were evolving, just like how we went from Neanderthals to sophisticated and refined society, the Babarians regardless of those thousands of years into the future did progress.

2.) give a more clear or faster example of a race progressing for Zamasu to better understand his lesson.


My point being there is a clear miscommunication, both are at fault for not understanding each other, but Zamasu is far more in the wrong here, Zamasu didn’t try to understand what Gowasu was trying to say and was too blinded by his views and current outlook. He is too arrogant to take a step back and understand his viewpoint. He is too biased and stubborn.

Gowas showed that the barbarians started developing culture and created musical instruments. Zamas didn't care.