Zamasu (Not Black) is very underrated...

[Master Xar]

What a weird mentality... Zamasu’s ideals and reasoning are completely faulty when he decides to kill all mortals when there was only a few remote examples, that gives him no excuse to genocide everyone and everything. The Babarians while not showing too much progress in their evolution it’s still progress

If Zamasu kills all mortals and starts anew then what? He will have to make the races completely the same, mind and body, not be able to talk, have no personalities, and have no opinions as all of that would birth conflict eventually. People’s differences, their opinions, their clashing personalities, their needs and wants will always birth opposition or conflict.

Goku and Co. got as strong as they did from conflict and working hard, they discovered new techniques and powers from their ever-rising list of powerful opponents. If they had... none of that they’d be way weaker than they are today. Stagnation.

[Lord Frieza]

So what your telling me is that because every aspect of life itself is founded on or around conflict, down to evolution itself, is wrong? No, because without that conflict life dose not exist. It’s inevitable to occur on some level at any point. It’s s part of the natural order and in reality the greater aspect of it is beyond such simplistic ideals. And it will always faulted and restart as life dose. Even the gods of the dragon ball universe all go through there own developments and conflicts.

The middle point of creation & destruction, of life & death, of good & evil is conflict. It is the hub of the wheel, the key cog that turns the whole machine. It is from this that possibility springs.

And what’s the alternative? Nothing or as close to nothing as you can get. A stagnant universe were nothing grows, nothing changes, nothing is new, nothing is learned. Is reality and the beings in it flawed, yes is the cycle of conflict endless, yes. But it is always better then what lies on the extreme ends of conflict. Zamasu would have found that out the hard way had he succeeded.

You too are objectively wrong. Conflict is a result of the evil within humans. Which begets death. Get rid of evil humans, no conflict. To support conflict is another proof of foolish thinking of ningen.

Considering that everything I have posted has looked at the larger picture of how conflict works in reality in spite of the fact that some aspects of conflict, on the very narrow scale you seem to be looking at, could be a threat to my existence, no. I'm being very objective.

Zamasu's, and by extension your, stance on things is to say I don't like it so it must be wrong. I don't understand it so it must be wrong. I think it's ugly so it must be wrong. Thats the antithesis of objectivity.

Would you like to be dead just to avoid possible conflict?

Just opposing it or being around it will get one killed.

Not necessarily

Exactly. Conflict is more then just two people beating eachother with a stick. Conflict is a multi-faceted concept and to pretend otherwise is being intellectually dishonest. There is emotional, intellectual and ideological conflict. There is also the cause of conflict, multiple things cause conflict from being starving to trying to get a job. In fact Miracle you are taking part in and perpetuating a form of conflict right now.

[SaiyanGod117]

"Conflict" is a sugar coat for warring with each other due to selfish desires with in. Theses are things everybody knows is wrong. It's delusional to try and pretend humans are good due to this being "natural." Zamas got our number.

Doesn’t matter, Zamasu is delusional and not only did he kill the humans that he considered sinful, he killed the Gods that were actually doing their jobs. In the end, the arc showed Zamasu was no different from a mortal; moreover, even the Gods realized conflict will always be there in one form or another, that’s why they’re there.

[Miracles]

Not necessarily

Oh yeah, lets not forget how it breeds contention, quarrels, attack on finances, family and other underhanded ways of getting back at people besides dying by it. Zamas baby!!!

Considering that everything I have posted has looked at the larger picture of how conflict works in reality in spite of the fact that some aspects of conflict, on the very narrow scale you seem to be looking at, could be a threat to my existence, no. I'm being very objective.

Zamasu's, and by extension your, stance on things is to say I don't like it so it must be wrong. I don't understand it so it must be wrong. I think it's ugly so it must be wrong. Thats the antithesis of objectivity.

Wrong, you are just flat out wrong. Quarrels get people nowhere but lead to what I stated above. Bitterness, Envy...prolonged grudges...A Endless cycle of hate. This is universal truth!

Doesn’t matter, Zamasu is delusional and not only did he kill the humans that he considered sinful, he killed the Gods that were actually doing their jobs. In the end, the arc showed Zamasu was no different from a mortal; moreover, even the Gods realized conflict will always be there in one form or another, that’s why they’re there.

Yes, I already stated Zamas was evil like the mortals. Still doesn't change the fact that he was objectively right and the show had no answer for him.

But I take my leave...Zamas was a very good villain and his motivations was quite fresh to Dragonball. You all have a good weekend.

[PFM18]

What? How dare you praise Dragon Ball Super! Who do you think you are? Clearly the villains devoid of any legitimate motivations or compelling backstories are much better villains!

But seriously I agree wholeheartedly. Zamasu is a fantastic character.

Awesome post. I've been longest proponent that Zamasu (on his own) is a wonderfully written character.

And Black is a poorly written character is what you are saying?

[SaiyanGod117]

Not necessarily

Oh yeah, lets not forget how it breeds contention, quarrels, attack on finances, family and other underhanded ways of getting back at people besides dying by it. Zamas baby!!!

Considering that everything I have posted has looked at the larger picture of how conflict works in reality in spite of the fact that some aspects of conflict, on the very narrow scale you seem to be looking at, could be a threat to my existence, no. I'm being very objective.

Zamasu's, and by extension your, stance on things is to say I don't like it so it must be wrong. I don't understand it so it must be wrong. I think it's ugly so it must be wrong. Thats the antithesis of objectivity.

Wrong, you are just flat out wrong. Quarrels get people nowhere but lead to what I stated above. Bitterness, Envy...prolonged grudges...A Endless cycle of hate. This is universal truth!

Doesn’t matter, Zamasu is delusional and not only did he kill the humans that he considered sinful, he killed the Gods that were actually doing their jobs. In the end, the arc showed Zamasu was no different from a mortal; moreover, even the Gods realized conflict will always be there in one form or another, that’s why they’re there.

Yes, I already stated Zamas was evil like the mortals. Still doesn't change the fact that he was objectively right and the show had no answer for him.

But I take my leave...Zamas was a very good villain and his motivations was quite fresh to Dragonball. You all have a good weekend.

He wasn’t objectively right about anything, the ending of the arc pretty much sums that up. I bet you can’t even give 3 benefits/advantages if his plan actually followed through.

[Lord Frieza]

Considering that everything I have posted has looked at the larger picture of how conflict works in reality in spite of the fact that some aspects of conflict, on the very narrow scale you seem to be looking at, could be a threat to my existence, no. I'm being very objective.

Zamasu's, and by extension your, stance on things is to say I don't like it so it must be wrong. I don't understand it so it must be wrong. I think it's ugly so it must be wrong. Thats the antithesis of objectivity.

Wrong, you are just flat out wrong. Quarrels get people nowhere but lead to what I stated above. Bitterness, Envy...prolonged grudges...A Endless cycle of hate. This is universal truth! .

Envy and bitterness are things that can and have driven people to do more with their lives provided they have the mental maturity to use those emotions properly. I have done so and since I’m human I can assume that others have to. Not all my drives to succeed in life are pure but they were effective and necessary to push me to keep putting one foot in ground of the other and do better.

Nor are these emotions inherently evil as many good people have them and never act out the any violence. I hate a lot of people but never taken a single step to try and make their lives harder and agin plenty of other people don’t either. Why, because they are rational, mature creatures who are not simple guided by emotions but thought and logic also. Perfect no but not slavering beasts acting on impulse either.

As for nothing coming of quorrels, the entire scientific methods is based around debate and picking ideas apart with ruthless intensity until they are proven correct or devoid of merit. On a more basic level quarrels are the first step of finding out something is wrong with a situation befor meaningful debate and discussion on how to to fix it.

Your entire argument is base on, Human are bad because they do bad things. That’s a logical fallacy and very wrong as it denies every act of human kindness or good. As well as the dynamic and complex nature of reality, nature, emotions and humans.

As Vegeta_Sama put it, that’s a very unhealthy and narrow minded way to look at anything. So I leave you to you little world of darkness. I’m going out to enjoy the beautiful day outside.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, if Zamasu's logic makes no sense because not all mortals are evil, then Zeno's logic also makes no sense because not all mortals are altruistic, therefore both these deities are wrong, but it's funny how people point fingers only at Zamasu.

He wasn’t objectively right about anything

He was objectively right that mortals like the Babarians do not deserve to exist.

the ending of the arc pretty much sums that up.

At that point, he had already lost his sanity seeing as the mortals kept defying him.

I bet you can’t even give 3 benefits/advantages if his plan actually followed through.

In the new world:

1) Mortals cannot be stronger than God. This means that mortals now have to follow the rules of God or die. As it should be, You know;
2) There are no wars, since Zamasu would create new species that strive for peace, not conflict like the Saiyans or Frieza's kind;
3) Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction, with their meaningless internal squabbles, are washed away, and only the Supreme God, the Kai Zamasu, is left, to watch over the multiverse for eternity. A single God, who does not let his fellow deities distract him from his duty to the cosmos.

Also, It's so funny that a tiny minority cannot see the difference between people advocating for genocide in real life (which I am not doing) and people advocating for genocide in the Dragon Ball world (which I am doing because, spoilers, Trunks, Mai and co. are not real people, so I don't care if they die).

[Vegeta_Sama]

[Lord Beerus]

Awesome post. I've been longest proponent that Zamasu (on his own) is a wonderfully written character.

And Black is a poorly written character is what you are saying?

Um... no.

[Master Xar]

Horribly executed. I think he was Super's biggest wasted opportunity.

In what way? They framed him as to not having any necessary sympathy or that you should agree with him. He is decently unlikable and uncharmingin that you want to see him get punched in the face, but not grating enough to want you to change the channel or look away. You really only offer a general claim without backing it up or offering reasoning in 90% of your posts in this section and really just come off as a troll, especially when you throw insults at the fanbase. If you hate Super so much why are you even here? No offense I’m genuinely curious.

[PFM18]

Awesome post. I've been longest proponent that Zamasu (on his own) is a wonderfully written character.

And Black is a poorly written character is what you are saying?

Um... no.

I mean you said Zamasu on his own was wonderflly written so I would imagine that you meant Black was not wonderfully written

2)There are no wars, since Zamasu would create new species that strive for peace, not conflict like the Saiyans or Frieza's kind;

Wait since when was he going to make his own mortals? Can he just create species anyway?

[Vegeta_Sama]

2)There are no wars, since Zamasu would create new species that strive for peace, not conflict like the Saiyans or Frieza's kind;

Wait since when was he going to make his own mortals? Can he just create species anyway?

Just his random headcanon

[SupremeKai25]

Also, regarding Beerus, he should be punished too. Zamasu was punshed because he did a God of Destruction's job. And yet, Beerus is destroying based on his whims, not on the laws of the Gods (as Old Kai even stated once), and holds tournaments in his name instead of removing potential threats to the world of Gods. Zeno himself aknowledged that those Destroyers are bad. Yet no one points a finger at Beerus. Smells like double standards to me.

Wait since when was he going to make his own mortals? Can he just create species anyway?

He became a Supreme Kai once he murdered Gowasu, therefore he was able to create and give life. He created a sentient winged creature, the Wall of Light. The creature was a being of its own, as it was able to roar and even experienced pain.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Zamasu, as the Supreme God, wanted to be revered and praised. You cannot be revered and praised if you are the only lifeform in the cosmos.

Perhaps he wouldn't create sentient mortals. But he would create new beings nonetheless. He even says during his explosive birth that he wants to be worshipped.

[Lord Beerus]

And Black is a poorly written character is what you are saying?

Um... no.

I mean you said Zamasu on his own was wonderflly written so I would imagine that you meant Black was not wonderfully written

Um... no.

[VegettoEX]

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[SaiyanGod117]

He was objectively right that mortals like the Babarians do not deserve to exist.

They were basically Neanderthals, they were almost no different from wild animals.

At that point, he had already lost his sanity seeing as the mortals kept defying him.

He was insane, delusional, and naive to begin with, no human or animal will sit idely by and await their slaughter.

In the new world:

1) Mortals cannot be stronger than God. This means that mortals now have to follow the rules of God or die. As it should be, You know;

This sounds like a dictatorship asking for rebellion.

2) There are no wars, since Zamasu would create new species that strive for peace, not conflict like the Saiyans or Frieza's kind;

Nothing hinted that he wanted to anything of the sort or that he had the power to.

3) Supreme Kais and Gods of Destruction, with their meaningless internal squabbles, are washed away, and only the Supreme God, the Kai Zamasu, is left, to watch over the multiverse for eternity. A single God, who does not let his fellow deities distract him from his duty to the cosmos.

Sounds just like a mad tyrant who doesn’t listen to his advisors or anyone.

Also, It's so funny that a tiny minority cannot see the difference between people advocating for genocide in real life (which I am not doing) and people advocating for genocide in the Dragon Ball world (which I am doing because, spoilers, Trunks, Mai and co. are not real people, so I don't care if they die).

Well that’s fine, because my post wasn’t directed at you anyways.

[SupremeKai25]

They were basically Neanderthals, they were almost no different from wild animals.

Wild animals who only ravaged their once-beautiful world with violence and attempted to assault Gods. And there were many other examples similiar to Planet Babari that Zamasu witnessed. Why did they deserve to exist, when their only purpose in life was destruction?

In spite of this, Zamasu decided to give them a chance and see if they had managed to learn from their mistakes and build a better society upon them. But even after a thousand years, they kept killing each other, neglecting the precious gifts granted to them by the Gods.

This wouldn't be a problem if the Gods hadn't given them the reason to see their mistakes. But they did. The Gods did give the Babari wisdom and intelligence, so they could have seen their flaws, but they simply didn't care. They represented the stupidity of mortal kind, that kept repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

No, Not all mortals were that stupid. Some did use wisdom and intelligence to build beautiful and peaceful civilizations. See the advanced Universe 3, or the pristine Planet Namek. And this is when Gowasu comes in. Gowasu was a terrible teacher, and took Zamasu to a planet that proved his point that mortals do nothing but repeat the same mistakes and throw away divine gifts like they were trash.

He was insane, delusional, and naive to begin with, no human or animal will sit idely by and await their slaughter.

He had not foreseen that Trunks would go back in time and recruit more powerful Saiyans. Before that, Zamasu easily destroyed several mortal civilizations across the cosmos with barely any resistance met.

This sounds like a dictatorship asking for rebellion.

But if mortals have no strength, they stand no chance against a God. And if mortals have no strength to begin with, they wouldn't know what it is, thus they wouldn't crave it, and so they would lack a valid motive to rebel against their God.

Nothing hinted that he wanted to anything of the sort or that he had the power to.

Already addressed.

Sounds just like a mad tyrant who doesn’t listen to his advisors or anyone.

No. It sounds like an absolute monarch who doesn't let petty squabbles get in the way of his duty to the cosmos. A unified and ordered leadership will ALWAYS be better than anarchy. And in Zeno's multiverse, anarchy reigns supreme, with mortals doing whatever the heck they want, and Gods not giving a crap. Old Kai literally states that Beerus destroys things based on his whims, and Zeno even says that two of the twelve Destroyers are absolute garbage, holding tournaments instead of doing their job and watching over their universes. This is a nice cosmos? I don't think so.

[Bergamo]

People should stop with this thread. Obviously half of us think that murder is not ideologically justifiable, and the other half of us do. No one is going to find common ground or have a meaningful discussion.

[GokuHater]

No, I think we can still have a legit discussion if only we would listen to the other arguments.

Eg. @SupremeKai25, I think you have a point in saying that gods can be seen as a bit lazy and incompetent, especially Universe 7, where the Kaio shin is a stupid jellyfish and god's of destruction methods can be seen as not morally perfect [ letting Frieza go all the way as he wants and even asking him to blow up to a planet is a bit too much for a deity of his position ].

However I don't understand how Frieza's exsistence as a being proves thier incompetence. From what I gathered gods generally do not interfere into mortals' problems if it doesn't touch them directly. A god won't come up and destroy Frieza just because he is evil. However they can create beings who in time will have the power to overthrow such evil tyrants [ and that's exactly what happened ]. If all of the universe is threatened however, they WILL take actions as was the case with Majin Buu. The only problem then was not beacuse they didn't do anything, but beacuse they were to weak, which hardly can be considered as their fault.

Also what Zamas did not understand [ probably given his youth and lack of any expierience ] is that good and evil PoV shouldn't be considered as a thing when looking at the universe history from a point of a deity. As someone already said in the topic, struggle is a driving force in the universe. Thanks to that we can learn, grow, know our mistakes and limitations. Do you think that any mortal would have a high level of intelligence if they didn't experience evil, war, or suffering?
The target of a God shouldn't be to side with anyone, rate life, or believe in thier petty ideals but create life, let them be, ocasionally watch over them and guard the whole universe from harm.

I cannot understand how anyone could call Zamasu a 'morally gray character'.
You know who is a morally gray character in DB universe? Cell Saga Vegeta is a morally gray character. Pre-Super Mr. Satan is a morally gray character. Zamasu a morally gray character ain't. He is as sadistic sociopath and one of the most cruel villains of the saga [ besides Frieza, King Piccolo I would say ]. People can't really say that he eradicates humans mercifully as this is kind of bullshit. Please consider the scene where he killed Goku and what that scene said about him. He literally killed him in front of his little child and wife, who were already in shock at that point, after which he proceeded to violently chase them all the time having a grin on his face. If you don't call THIS cruelty or sociopathic behaviour then what?
Apart from this observe how he hunts down human beings in his timeline. It's a game to him and his actions really resemble the future Androids' acftions at that point.

You call Zamasu's ideals true and interesting. While there may be a little truth to that, I don't think Zamasu had any ideals to back him up. For me he looks like an inexperienced sociopathic teenager, who doesn't understand the world so instead starts shouting pieces of cleverly glued phrazes in your face.
I cannot tell whether Zamasu believed in anything he said or didn't but this makes little difference. He clearly enjoys bulding his little utopia and killing other living things so his so called 'ideals' can be just one big hotchoptch to justify his actions in front of himself - in that regard he is exactly Frieza although Frieza was open about this.

His ideology starts falling apart the moment he tries it out in real life. Tell me, if he'd really believe in this utopia bullshit why did he start his little rampage instead of making this world with the Dragon Balls? I think beacuse it wouldn't involve bloodshed. That's all to Zamasu really. I don't know whether he was a sociopath to begin with [ that may be an interesting topic for another discussion ] but that's who he is.
Should Zamas succeed there wouldn't be any utopia built with happy living beings and one God above all. Instead what Zamasu would create, would be whole universe of what we saw in Trunk's timeline. Destroyed, barren world with dying wastelands, terrified mortals and a tyrant watching in panic whether everything is the way he wants.

Arguments Zamasu provides are just laughably churlish. Seeing a planet in which neanderthals battle each other proves mortals need to die? Please.
Consider how much time it took human species to evolve from our australopithecus to homo sapiens and start thinking, bulding, creating instead of killing and beating each other up.