Disregarding quality, are you happy Super existed

[Basaku]

I see the goods of Super outweighing the bad, even if slightly so I guess the answer is yes.

However, I'm absolutely in the camp that the franchise should move significantly forward. It's a similar case as with Star Wars revival. There's only so much relying on nostalgia, established concepts and imaginery the audience can take. It will wear off eventually. The series needs to grow and try new things, even if not everything works out.

[PFM18]

Personally, I would never recommend that anyone watch DBS, because I wouldn't want them to do that to themselves. I think DBS is a downgrade from DBZ in every way, but if you disregard quality, I'm happy that it exists.

Well personally I try to be unbiased and not overwhelmingly pessimist.

Firstly, would you quit it with the "bias." Disagreeing with your obviously superior opinions sadly cannot be classified as bias. Sorry.

Anyways, I'm not especially biased or pessimistic, but there is simply no reason to watch DBS. The appeal of anime telling a story with full movement and color. When half of a show is a 40 episode long tournament, and it's not a tournament with a bracket, but rather a disorderly collection of characters with bad designs that you don't care about fighting, there's no reason to watch. The great moments are few and far between, and they don't justify the ungodly long watch time. I legitimately think a 40 minute YouTube playlist of the best moments of the tournament would be better than what we got.

Finally, name one thing in super that's better than Dragon Ball.

Honestly, I just can't help but question if you are biased if you look at two shows, both written by the same guy, both animated by the same studio, and say that one is amazing and one isn't even worth watching. Especially having seen the one that "isn't worth watching" and I think it gave us two of the best arcs in the franchise.

You apparently have a preference for bracketed tournaments, but I mean that doesn't particularly make the arc worse. At it's core it isn't just a tournament but people fighting for their lives and all of their friend's lives just for the entertainment of their superiors. This at it's core is a more interesting and compelling them than anything we see in DBZ. DBZ is literally "bad guy shows up, you fight, you lose, *insert-power-up* and then you win." None of the villains have any real motivations or aspirations outside of just ruling the world or killing people. That's not to say that DBZ was bad, but the core themes and villains are less interesting to me than the DBS ones. I think both series are around equal with the original Dragon Ball being slightly better than both.

Yeah I'm not going to sit here and come up with one thing further than what I just mentioned. I'll probably come up with a full list of things at some point.

[Bergamo]

Well personally I try to be unbiased and not overwhelmingly pessimist.

Firstly, would you quit it with the "bias." Disagreeing with your obviously superior opinions sadly cannot be classified as bias. Sorry.

Anyways, I'm not especially biased or pessimistic, but there is simply no reason to watch DBS. The appeal of anime telling a story with full movement and color. When half of a show is a 40 episode long tournament, and it's not a tournament with a bracket, but rather a disorderly collection of characters with bad designs that you don't care about fighting, there's no reason to watch. The great moments are few and far between, and they don't justify the ungodly long watch time. I legitimately think a 40 minute YouTube playlist of the best moments of the tournament would be better than what we got.

Finally, name one thing in super that's better than Dragon Ball.

Honestly, I just can't help but question if you are biased if you look at two shows, both written by the same guy, both animated by the same studio, and say that one is amazing and one isn't even worth watching. Especially having seen the one that "isn't worth watching" and I think it gave us two of the best arcs in the franchise.

You apparently have a preference for bracketed tournaments, but I mean that doesn't particularly make the arc worse. At it's core it isn't just a tournament but people fighting for their lives and all of their friend's lives just for the entertainment of their superiors. This at it's core is a more interesting and compelling them than anything we see in DBZ. DBZ is literally "bad guy shows up, you fight, you lose, *insert-power-up* and then you win." None of the villains have any real motivations or aspirations outside of just ruling the world or killing people. That's not to say that DBZ was bad, but the core themes and villains are less interesting to me than the DBS ones. I think both series are around equal with the original Dragon Ball being slightly better than both.

Yeah I'm not going to sit here and come up with one thing further than what I just mentioned. I'll probably come up with a full list of things at some point.

Execution.Super isn't Toriyama's best writing, and the intricate details that make the series good aren't written by him.

I also don't think that Z is worth watching. Z kai is good, but the original Z suffers from many of the same problems. I think the original manga is the best iteration of Dragon Ball, so I couldn't care less about who animated Z.

[Basaku]

You apparently have a preference for bracketed tournaments, but I mean that doesn't particularly make the arc worse. At it's core it isn't just a tournament but people fighting for their lives and all of their friend's lives just for the entertainment of their superiors. This at it's core is a more interesting and compelling them than anything we see in DBZ. DBZ is literally "bad guy shows up, you fight, you lose, *insert-power-up* and then you win." None of the villains have any real motivations or aspirations outside of just ruling the world or killing people. That's not to say that DBZ was bad, but the core themes and villains are less interesting to me than the DBS ones. I think both series are around equal with the original Dragon Ball being slightly better than both.

Yeah I'm not going to sit here and come up with one thing further than what I just mentioned. I'll probably come up with a full list of things at some point.

Except that the plot could change rapidly in Z. That's the big difference between it and TOP. I mean, just reach back a few months ago, fans were wildley speculating how the tournament will devolve into massive war with Angels, or Zeno, or how Freeza will steal the wish and the main final villain once again. Nothing happened, the tournament ended straightforward. Why were fans speculating like this? Becuase that's what DBZ accustomed them to.

To call DBZ arcs as "bad guy shows up, you fight, you lose, *insert-power-up* and then you win." is just simplistic. We went from Saiyan saga (in itself a masive developement compared to previous arc) to an unpredictable race for the Dragon Balls on Namek, only then to "big bad fight with Big Bad Freeza", after tons of plot & character developements. Even more so for Android/Cell saga. Heck, Cell doesn't even show up for big chunk of the saga. And then, right when u would expect things to go straightforward till the end, it turns out the main protag won't even be the one to kill the Big Bad.

If Z didn't have all that, fans would not speculate on the TOP the way they did.

[emperior]

Yes. I like Super, and I am happy Toriyama decided to continue his serie.
It is also getting better and better and I am glad they have decided to get it off the air to fix what was wrong.
If it continues with yearly movies, that will be fine as they will be completely written by Toriyama, who will bring more consistency and overall better writing, and they art and animation will also be much better.
If they bring it back as weekly show, that would probably be my preference as I loved having a new episode every week. Writing may suffer a little but if the production and the scheduling are good then the overall writing will still be superior to what we got so far, and the new animation friendly design will also help having more consistent art and animation.

Super has been a fun ride so far, with some highs and ups, but I still enjoyed it a lot and its future is very bright, so I am absolutely content that it exists.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Absolutely. Gave me something fun to tune into every week, new characters and lore to talk about and a bevy of awesome character moments and fight scenes.

One down side is seeing all the "true fans' who hate it and call it a cash grab. I don't generally let that stuff bother me, but it sucks to see the thing you had fun with being bagged out.

Oh god yeah I feel like that's just an over used phrase on the internet now, everything is a "cash grab, it's why many shows fail to get second seasons because they didn't make enough money. Or like films at the box office, if it's success more than likely it gets a sequel.

I think people throwing that phrase around are silly. DB existed in the first place because Toriyama needed money, it was his job.

[PFM18]

You apparently have a preference for bracketed tournaments, but I mean that doesn't particularly make the arc worse. At it's core it isn't just a tournament but people fighting for their lives and all of their friend's lives just for the entertainment of their superiors. This at it's core is a more interesting and compelling them than anything we see in DBZ. DBZ is literally "bad guy shows up, you fight, you lose, *insert-power-up* and then you win." None of the villains have any real motivations or aspirations outside of just ruling the world or killing people. That's not to say that DBZ was bad, but the core themes and villains are less interesting to me than the DBS ones. I think both series are around equal with the original Dragon Ball being slightly better than both.

Yeah I'm not going to sit here and come up with one thing further than what I just mentioned. I'll probably come up with a full list of things at some point.

Except that the plot could change rapidly in Z. That's the big difference between it and TOP. I mean, just reach back a few months ago, fans were wildley speculating how the tournament will devolve into massive war with Angels, or Zeno, or how Freeza will steal the wish and the main final villain once again. Nothing happened, the tournament ended straightforward. Why were fans speculating like this? Becuase that's what DBZ accustomed them to.

To call DBZ arcs as "bad guy shows up, you fight, you lose, *insert-power-up* and then you win." is just simplistic. We went from Saiyan saga (in itself a masive developement compared to previous arc) to an unpredictable race for the Dragon Balls on Namek, only then to "big bad fight with Big Bad Freeza", after tons of plot & character developements. Even more so for Android/Cell saga. Heck, Cell doesn't even show up for big chunk of the saga. And then, right when u would expect things to go straightforward till the end, it turns out the main protag won't even be the one to kill the Big Bad.

If Z didn't have all that, fans would not speculate on the TOP the way they did.

Are you trying to say that DBZ is different in that you expect the unexpected? The same applies to Super if not more so.

-The first arc ends in a loss. They literally lose and the villain decides to spare them. This had never happened before.
-In RoF Goku gets shot down by a LASER, Vegeta dominates Freeza, Freeza blows up the Earth, and then a god rewinds time and gives Goku a chance to kill him the second time.
-In the U6 Arc, Goku loses in the first round. Vegeta wins the following THREE ROUNDS, who is somebody who mostly serves as a punching bag throughout the franchise. Goku gets reinstated because it turns out his competitor cheated. Then Goku throws the match because his opponent is restricted from murdering him and he doesn't want to be the god's play thing.

I could go on and on. There was absolutely nothing predictable about DBS. People didn't predict anything. Things are constantly changing. Hell, Goku didn't even get a true "win" the entire series. If it wasn't for the movies that spoiled the plot for the first two arcs, people would have been that much more shocked. The idea that the plot rapidly changing is exclusive to DBZ is ridiculous to me. The premise that the plot could stop on a dime and go in a different direction is trademark Toriyama and it shows in Dragon Ball Super as much as it does in DBZ.

[Lord Beerus]

Um... my judgement on whether I'm happy of Super's existence would have to based on its quality, given that's how I determine whether the show was worthwhile me spending time with it.

Regardless... I like Super a lot, despite its VERY obvious issues, on-screen and and behind the scenes. And considering it's lead to Toriyama being more involved with franchise, and more content being produced in many different areas, yes, I'm happy Super existed. It was fun.

[PFM18]

Yeah I'm not sure how we can disregard quality in this conversation.

[supersaiyanZero]

I'm glad it exists, because if you throw it side by side with Z (and even more so with OG Dragonball) , it's an incredibly potent case study in quality degradation. They should show it in classrooms so people can see firsthand what it's like to take a step back and create a cliche, soulless, charmless, horribly written, horribly executed mess for the sake of the almighty dollar.

[BWri]

I am happy and thankful that DBS exists. It's brought a ton of fresh new fans, relevance and HYPE to the series. I like the concepts introduced and the characters, both old and new, provided more than their fair share of interesting moments. As the second stage of the franchise's revival, I am quite glad for it. I wish they did it right from the start though. A show of Dragon Ball's caliber deserved a much better treatment than what we started with. More time and better planning could have made this series soar, but one thing you can say about Super is its much improved by the end than when it started. I say all this as one of Super's biggest critics (big as in I usually have more negative to say about the show than positive.)

[PremiumSalt]

I enjoyed it so the "disregard quality" is irrelevant for me. I am quite happy it existed, I think it breathed new life into the DB fandom and brought in a lot of new fans. Also, it encouraged a lot of people to watch the Japanese version for the first time, and many of those people ultimately ended up preferring it.

[Scott]

I liked the idea of it, but i really wish they could erase it and start from scratch. It could and should have been so much better than it turned out to be.

[ZombieVito]

Yes for the anime.

Manga can die for all I care.

[Bergamo]

Yes for the anime.

Manga can die for all I care.

The manga is canon.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Kokonoe]

Hmm...

See I don't like Super / Battle of the Gods, I think had it aired when GT aired it would've been panned all the same and perhaps cancelled early just like GT was. That said, as much as I dislike Super and think it's a horribly written show and is not the show I grew up with, I do enjoy that there is a resurgence in Dragon Ball content such as games and other media, which in part can be contributed to Super's success.

I may not be happy Super exists, but I guess in some regards I am because it lead to a revival of aspects of this series and well, the new Broly movie does look genuinely entertaining.

[dbgtFO]

Yes, I just don't like the Toei-isms plaguing the show and would have actually wanted a longer Future Trunks Arc and more cohesiveness connecting the Twin Universe Tournament Arc with the Goku-Black Arc(and those should be the names of the arcs).
Also the way transformations were handled, had plenty of room for improvement.

[ekrolo2]

I'm happy Battle of God's the movie exists.

[Alruneia]

Absolutely. Watching Super has been a blast, and reading Super is still a blast. That's my answer when quality isn't taken into account. Though it's really hard to disregard quality completely.
Taking quality into account, I'm still "happy" Super is a thing, though I have to say the positives only barely outweigh the negatives for me. The series itself leaves a lot to be desired, especially in the first few arcs, but it has a fair amount of shining moments too, and let's not forget the meme game from the fandom.

• For the use of Super Saiyan 2? - Yes, I'm happy Dragon Ball Super exists.

This is a good point. I love me some SS2.

[Majin Buu]

Largely no. Too many retcons, rehashes, and too much pandering fanservice. Plus it made the cosmology even more convoluted than it already was. I also don't like that the anime looks too clean and sterile.

Only two good things came from Super for me:

1. Zamasu. He was a type villain that Dragon Ball had never had before (an antagonist with ideological motives), making him feel like something new and interesting despite just being a pallet swap of East Kaioshin.

2. It actually gave me a new appreciation for GT. Yeah, GT still isn't particularly good, but it at least had good ideas that simply weren't executed very well. Super as a whole just feels lazy in comparison.


On a minor note, It always bothers me that all this modern Dragon Ball material seems to ignore that post Cell arc Vegeta doesn't wear battle armor anymore. It feels regressive and incongruous when this new material is supposed to take place in between the Buu arc and the end of Z (Plus I like Vegeta's Buu era battle look).