Are they playing it safe because of GT (movie spoiler)

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Michsi
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Are they playing it safe because of GT (movie spoiler)

Post by Michsi » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:06 am

(I know people are tired of the Super/GT comparison. Sorry!)

A common criticism of Super (at least from what I've seen) is the one claiming that the staff are too stuck on copying "Z" and are just looking for ways to reuse its most popular moments, expecting them to be the same crowd pleasers they were 20 years ago. They all but admitted that they are bringing back Broly because of his popularity, and I think it's safe to say that they are banking on what is popular because a lot money is at stake. I've recently seen a video about Toei and how its long running anime depend on various stake holders, so if getting the necessary funds comes via corporate approval, then it explains why they might be reluctant to take a more creative but riskier route.

When that GT interview got translated last year, I realized that they actually did try to make something that was different from Z. Sure, GT also tried to use nostalgia as an ingredient, but they very clearly wanted to make something that was its own thing and not "Z" part two. At least, in the beginning. Thing is, it didn't do so well and I'm now wondering if Toei & co. are now looking towards GT as lesson of what not to do. No more passion projects, just nice, safe fan service. Given that Super is making so much money now, can you blame them?

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Re: Are they playing it safe because of GT (movie spoiler)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:08 am

GT didn't really try anything new they wanted to go back to OG DB style and even turned Goku into a kid. Realised it didn't work but still kept Goku a kid...

Broly is gonna be a new character not being brought back like Freeza so there is slightly more risk in that I'd argue.

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Re: Are they playing it safe because of GT (movie spoiler)

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:10 am

Michsi wrote:(I know people are tired of the Super/GT comparison. Sorry!)

A common criticism of Super (at least from what I've seen) is the one claiming that the staff are too stuck on copying "Z" and are just looking for ways to reuse its most popular moments, expecting them to be the same crowd pleasers they were 20 years ago. They all but admitted that they are bringing back Broly because of his popularity, and I think it's safe to say that they are banking on what is popular because a lot money is at stake. I've recently seen a video about Toei and how its long running anime depend on various stake holders, so if getting the necessary funds comes via corporate approval, then it explains why they might be reluctant to take a more creative but riskier route.

When that GT interview got translated last year, I realized that they actually did try to make something that was different from Z. Sure, GT also tried to use nostalgia as an ingredient, but they very clearly wanted to make something that was its own thing and not "Z" part two. At least, in the beginning. Thing is, it didn't do so well and I'm now wondering if Toei & co. are now looking towards GT as lesson of what not to do. No more passion projects, just nice, safe fan service. Given that Super is making so much money now, can you blame them?
Your assessment is correct.
GT by and large is was made by individuals who lived and breathed the Dragonball series. You can read all about the staff credits if you like.

In either case there was a respect for the story and lore of the Dragonball universe beyond simple fan service. Even as they discussed the characters who would go into outer space the discussion was less about popularity and more about trying to create a specific plot and story and how characters would interact with each other. In other words they didn’t just focus on certain characters for marketing reasons but rather for the artistic integrity of their story.

To put it another way, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, any number of the other cast members were popular. But in typical and traditional Toriyama style of that era, expectations, or at least plot expectations were subverted in favor or bringing less popular characters.

Even the decision to make Goku a child again was a thought out process on how to restrict Gokus tremendous power at that point.

To put this all another way, there was consideration given to plot and story and how it fits into the lore versus what was a hollow expression to capitalize on maximum return.
You can feel it was a genuine labor of love as they developed new and interesting concepts. They had every option to rehash old characters and plot points and while they didn’t bring them back for cameos. They never allowed them to become the major focus of the plot. In fact their sole “rehash” would be the Super 17 mini plot which brought back a ton of characters briefly as part of the experience but only lasted a few episodes anyway.

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Re: Are they playing it safe because of GT (movie spoiler)

Post by Michsi » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:40 am

TheMikado wrote:
Your assessment is correct.
GT by and large is was made by individuals who lived and breathed the Dragonball series. You can read all about the staff credits if you like.

In either case there was a respect for the story and lore of the Dragonball universe beyond simple fan service. Even as they discussed the characters who would go into outer space the discussion was less about popularity and more about trying to create a specific plot and story and how characters would interact with each other. In other words they didn’t just focus on certain characters for marketing reasons but rather for the artistic integrity of their story.

To put it another way, Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, any number of the other cast members were popular. But in typical and traditional Toriyama style of that era, expectations, or at least plot expectations were subverted in favor or bringing less popular characters.

Even the decision to make Goku a child again was a thought out process on how to restrict Gokus tremendous power at that point.

To put this all another way, there was consideration given to plot and story and how it fits into the lore versus what was a hollow expression to capitalize on maximum return.
You can feel it was a genuine labor of love as they developed new and interesting concepts. They had every option to rehash old characters and plot points and while they didn’t bring them back for cameos. They never allowed them to become the major focus of the plot. In fact their sole “rehash” would be the Super 17 mini plot which brought back a ton of characters briefly as part of the experience but only lasted a few episodes anyway.

That's what I got out of reading that interview, as well. But here's the thing: as much as I respect creators and want to support the idea of letting them do what they want, I also can't make myself like what I don't like. I didn't like GT (what little I saw of it) I didn't like that it put characters I was interested in on a bench. I didn't like the new designs.
And apparently, so did a lot of other people.

So passion projects aren't always a good thing. Building a story based almost exclusively on whats popular is bad, but sometimes, so is a story that caters to the whims of the writers alone, especially when it comes to established franchises and where a lot of money is involved. It's about finding the right balance, I guess.

I have to be honest, them keeping ideas close to Z is both a blessing and a curse for me. On one hand, it ensures that things I liked about it stay around, but at the same time it also brings back things I've gotten tired of. Can't have everything , I guess.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:GT didn't really try anything new they wanted to go back to OG DB style and even turned Goku into a kid. Realised it didn't work but still kept Goku a kid...

Broly is gonna be a new character not being brought back like Freeza so there is slightly more risk in that I'd argue.
I did say they were using nostalgia as well, but GT was a lot braver that Super.

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