(SPOILERS INSIDE) Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:31 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:I just don't think continuity matters as much to the parties overseeing the franchise as it does to the fans; the whole idea of branching Super off into two differently-told mediums in the first place would already call their dedication to such a concept into question, I think. As far as Toriyama seems to be concerned, he's working with two different groups independently constructing their own unique spin on his story, but it's still his story at its core. It wouldn't be surprising to me in the least if the movie doesn't acknowledge the existence of those forms, so I think that people should at least brace themselves for that possibility. Same goes for the opposite scenario, too.
Mhm. I think someone at least tries, but whether it's Toriyama or Toei is hard to say. Like Battle of Gods (the movie) has a callback to Yo! Son Goku and uses the anime's take on King Vegeta, but on the other hand it leaves out Gregory who was in Yo! Son Goku. That's why I asked in another post if we weren't making a lot of assumptions in declaring what he would or wouldn't write or allow to be in the story. I think what it's going to come down to here is whether or not he's writing out the entire script/screenplay directly. He's credited as "Original Author, Script, & Character Design" on the movie's website. He also has that credit on Resurrection F, but he says "It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”" because it dictated some dialogue and the general direction of the story but it wasn't so much a script because it left a lot up to Toei's staff. I haven't read that in ages but I seem to recall him admitting he just indicated where fights would happen and dumped that work on the anime staff. :lol: In the April 29th interview with Akio Iyoku it sounded like they were going to keep the arrangement they've had up til now and that everyone worked together to make the movie happen, but it doesn't really answer that question.

We can make guesses based on precedent, but ultimately we just don't know what's going to happen in that regard until they tell us (or IF they tell us), and I don't think there's any good reason for fans to be at each others' throats over this kind of speculation.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Ju-NanaGo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:19 pm

I doubt we will see one of the forms. Same goes for MSSB from the manga. We for sure won’t have an awesome animated fight without auras for Goku and Vegeta

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by 1345521 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:30 pm

Ju-NanaGo wrote:I doubt we will see one of the forms. Same goes for MSSB from the manga. We for sure won’t have an awesome animated fight without auras for Goku and Vegeta
Exactly 17,
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Aman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:48 am

I'm a Vegeta fan and I would be happy if Fairy Blue is not in it. Comically bad design.

It was one of the biggest mistakes of the series and the weakest/ugliest transformation so far in the franchise, let's pretend like it never happened.

Tbf the only good designs to come out from Super were UI and Omen. SSB was bad too.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by sintzu » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:44 am

Aman wrote:I'm a Vegeta fan and I would be happy if Fairy Blue is not in it. Comically bad design.

It was one of the biggest mistakes of the series and the weakest/ugliest transformation so far in the franchise, let's pretend like it never happened.
That form wouldn't have happened had they not gone crazy and introduced Kaioken Blue so early as that put them in a corner when Goku and Vegeta were written together, they had to come up with something for him as it wouldn't have made sense for his normal Blue to be on Goku's ×20 Kaioken.
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by ArchedThunder » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:10 am

Even if Toriyama doesn't put them in the movie it's always possible that The Dragon Ball Room does, as we already have confirmation that they added things to Toriyama's script, and then there is also always the possibility that Toei are being given some Freedom on things like forms.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Aman » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:55 am

sintzu wrote:
Aman wrote:I'm a Vegeta fan and I would be happy if Fairy Blue is not in it. Comically bad design.

It was one of the biggest mistakes of the series and the weakest/ugliest transformation so far in the franchise, let's pretend like it never happened.
That form wouldn't have happened had they not gone crazy and introduced Kaioken Blue so early as that put them in a corner when Goku and Vegeta were written together, they had to come up with something for him as it wouldn't have made sense for his normal Blue to be on Goku's ×20 Kaioken.
KB isn't any better either, it's basically SSB with a red aura. Really ugly.

Some really uninspired transformations in the series tbh, if it weren't for Omen and UI, I don't think many would remember Super very fondly.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:24 am

sintzu wrote:That form wouldn't have happened had they not gone crazy and introduced Kaioken Blue so early as that put them in a corner when Goku and Vegeta were written together, they had to come up with something for him as it wouldn't have made sense for his normal Blue to be on Goku's ×20 Kaioken.
They would have just given Goku something else if he hadn't used Kaioken. The anime and manga are nearly 1:1 in introducing new forms for the main characters, they just differ i appearance and timing within the arc.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:57 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
sintzu wrote:That form wouldn't have happened had they not gone crazy and introduced Kaioken Blue so early as that put them in a corner when Goku and Vegeta were written together, they had to come up with something for him as it wouldn't have made sense for his normal Blue to be on Goku's ×20 Kaioken.
They would have just given Goku something else if he hadn't used Kaioken. The anime and manga are nearly 1:1 in introducing new forms for the main characters, they just differ i appearance and timing within the arc.
I disagree with this. The anime introduces new forms, whereas the manga adds power ups. Instead of Super Saiyan Rage, Trunks powered up his SS2 form. Instead of Kaioken Blue, Goku and Vegeta powered up SSB.
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:17 pm

Bergamo wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
sintzu wrote:That form wouldn't have happened had they not gone crazy and introduced Kaioken Blue so early as that put them in a corner when Goku and Vegeta were written together, they had to come up with something for him as it wouldn't have made sense for his normal Blue to be on Goku's ×20 Kaioken.
They would have just given Goku something else if he hadn't used Kaioken. The anime and manga are nearly 1:1 in introducing new forms for the main characters, they just differ i appearance and timing within the arc.
I disagree with this. The anime introduces new forms, whereas the manga adds power ups. Instead of Super Saiyan Rage, Trunks powered up his SS2 form. Instead of Kaioken Blue, Goku and Vegeta powered up SSB.
That's fair enough. We could probably argue whether Kaioken constitutes a transformation or not but that's just splitting hairs, I think, and a really easy way to veer off topic. My point was that it seems like they either compare notes or it comes down from on high when the main characters can power up since each new power up in one is roughly analogous to one in the other with the possible exception of Omen, and it's left to Toei and Toyotaro to figure out how that'll happen. And I think the different mediums play a big part in how that's executed. If MSSB ever appeared in the anime, for example, I expect it would either have a different hair color, a unique CG effect, both, or some other big visual indicator because the aura disappearing wouldn't read well at all in the anime. Characters are constantly turning them on and off so you'd never know if they were actually using it or not unless it was spelled out. And if the anime forms ever appeared in the manga I expect they'd be heavily simplified and have far fewer flashy effects because Toyotaro would have to draw all that shit out himself which is really time consuming. Ultimately I think we'd just end up right back where we are now regardless of what types of power ups they got. Toei's gonna throw in a lot of razzle dazzle because they can and because it works on TV, and Toyotaro will keep more simple to save on time and work.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Bergamo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:58 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote: They would have just given Goku something else if he hadn't used Kaioken. The anime and manga are nearly 1:1 in introducing new forms for the main characters, they just differ i appearance and timing within the arc.
I disagree with this. The anime introduces new forms, whereas the manga adds power ups. Instead of Super Saiyan Rage, Trunks powered up his SS2 form. Instead of Kaioken Blue, Goku and Vegeta powered up SSB.
That's fair enough. We could probably argue whether Kaioken constitutes a transformation or not but that's just splitting hairs, I think, and a really easy way to veer off topic. My point was that it seems like they either compare notes or it comes down from on high when the main characters can power up since each new power up in one is roughly analogous to one in the other with the possible exception of Omen, and it's left to Toei and Toyotaro to figure out how that'll happen. And I think the different mediums play a big part in how that's executed. If MSSB ever appeared in the anime, for example, I expect it would either have a different hair color, a unique CG effect, both, or some other big visual indicator because the aura disappearing wouldn't read well at all in the anime. Characters are constantly turning them on and off so you'd never know if they were actually using it or not unless it was spelled out. And if the anime forms ever appeared in the manga I expect they'd be heavily simplified and have far fewer flashy effects because Toyotaro would have to draw all that shit out himself which is really time consuming. Ultimately I think we'd just end up right back where we are now regardless of what types of power ups they got. Toei's gonna throw in a lot of razzle dazzle because they can and because it works on TV, and Toyotaro will keep more simple to save on time and work.
I don't think Toyoraro removed the aura because he didn't feel like drawing it. Toyo added really heavy shading to Golden Frieza to really sell the form, and he always made sure that Rosé was a slightly lighter shade than Blue. He made the aura disappear to emphasize the importance of keeping your Ki from leaking out and to show how Blue is a calmer transformation(even though this was built up more in the anime).
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:05 pm

Bergamo wrote:I don't think Toyoraro removed the aura because he didn't feel like drawing it. Toyo added really heavy shading to Golden Frieza to really sell the form, and he always made sure that Rosé was a slightly lighter shade than Blue. He made the aura disappear to emphasize the importance of keeping your Ki from leaking out and to show how Blue is a calmer transformation(even though this was built up more in the anime).
Oh, I'm not saying he did it because he didn't want to draw the aura or that it's bad if he did. But simplicity is a very practical consideration with character designs and effects when you have to draw everything by hand over and over again. Toei kept their aura effects pretty simple until the revival and after when CGI became more common. I think SS4 Gogeta with his sparkles was the most complicated one they did.

You could draw/animate something like this [spoiler]Image[/spoiler] or the UI/Jiren auras by hand, but it's not very practical. Toei completely re-did the aura effects for the forms we've seen and they could have easily dialed things back and used a much more simple effect, but instead they made one that's more detailed and complex than the previous two SSB auras without being as visually oppressive because CG makes it so much easier to do that.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Kaiosama » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:56 pm

No need for either form to appear when it's been confirmed that Goku is almost a God and Vegeta is desperately struggling to catch up. Both forms are awful, especially SSBE.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by emperior » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:48 am

Well they just confirmed yet again in this week’s Dragon Ball Movie Frontline article about how Toriyama was very involved with the Tournament of Power arc, and the tingly back was also his idea even though Toyotaro didn’t use it.
This is just further proof that Toriyama was obviously okay with both Kaioken and Evolution and I believe those forms will be used in the movie too.
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by sintzu » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:46 am

emperior wrote:Well they just confirmed yet again in this week’s Dragon Ball Movie Frontline article about how Toriyama was very involved with the Tournament of Power arc, and the tingly back was also his idea even though Toyotaro didn’t use it.
This is just further proof that Toriyama was obviously okay with both Kaioken and Evolution and I believe those forms will be used in the movie too.
We knew Toriyama gave his OK for a lot of what the anime and manga did so at the very least they should say why they're not using them if they're not. We haven't seen every sheet for Goku (I assume Vegeta as well) such as his ripped up Gi at the end of the trailer so there's a possibility his Kaioken and Vegeta's evolved Blue are simply on another sheet that we didn't see at Comic Con.
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:05 pm

Kaiosama wrote:No need for either form to appear when it's been confirmed that Goku is almost a God and Vegeta is desperately struggling to catch up. Both forms are awful, especially SSBE.
That's an interesting tidbit. Sparkly Vegeta was capable of overpowering the likes of GoD Toppo and earning compliments from Jiren, so if he's "desperately struggling to catch up" to "almost a god" status - assuming Herms' translation is completely accurate - that would personally make me all the more inclined to think we won't be seeing those forms. That's still no confirmation of anything one way or the other, though.

Of course, Toriyama's approval of ideas doesn't mean he's going to put those ideas into the film's script if they aren't his. I'd imagine that would be up to Nagamine.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by sintzu » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:21 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:That's an interesting tidbit. Sparkly Vegeta was capable of overpowering the likes of GoD Toppo and earning compliments from Jiren, so if he's "desperately struggling to catch up" to "almost a god" status - assuming Herms' translation is completely accurate - that would personally make me all the more inclined to think we won't be seeing those forms. That's still no confirmation of anything one way or the other, though.

Of course, Toriyama's approval of ideas doesn't mean he's going to put those ideas into the film's script if they aren't his. I'd imagine that would be up to Nagamine.
I think both of his comments are regarding UI. Goku with UI is pretty much above every destroyer and might be closer to the angles while Vegeta is trying to catch up by achieving UI like he did in the TOP.
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:24 pm

sintzu wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:That's an interesting tidbit. Sparkly Vegeta was capable of overpowering the likes of GoD Toppo and earning compliments from Jiren, so if he's "desperately struggling to catch up" to "almost a god" status - assuming Herms' translation is completely accurate - that would personally make me all the more inclined to think we won't be seeing those forms. That's still no confirmation of anything one way or the other, though.

Of course, Toriyama's approval of ideas doesn't mean he's going to put those ideas into the film's script if they aren't his. I'd imagine that would be up to Nagamine.
I think both of his comments are regarding UI. Goku with UI is pretty much above every destroyer and might be closer to the angles while Vegeta is trying to catch up by achieving UI like he did in the TOP.
One of the previous promo pieces said that Goku has been training since the ToP, so it's also possible he's had some other kind of breakthrough and pulled ahead of Vegeta like he did in the Cell saga.

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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by sintzu » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:33 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:One of the previous promo pieces said that Goku has been training since the ToP, so it's also possible he's had some other kind of breakthrough and pulled ahead of Vegeta like he did in the Cell saga.
That's possible but not likely as Vegeta's goal in the TOP was to also unlock UI so chances are he'll have that goal here as well. Even with Goku training so will Vegeta which is most likely why his Buu arc outfit is here.
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Re: Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:37 pm

It's interesting that in the recent Nagamine interview, he is asked whether or not it is difficult to adapt Toriyama's scripts to the movie. He goes on to say that Toriyama is best suited for the manga. He says this twice. The action scenes and Toriyama's original draft has been cut in half to make a 90-min movie. Therefore, I do think that regardless of what is originally in Toriyama's draft, that SSB KK will definitely make an appearance in the movie because Toei is rewriting and modifying certain things for the big screen. The double aura animation adds more eye candy and it is what fans are already used to from watching the anime.
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