(SPOILERS INSIDE) Will Kaioken Blue and/or Blue Evolution appear in the film?

[1345521]

The storyboard bit was from this interview: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

Not really. Toriyama said in a interview he was going to use some of the anime-only ideas in his outlines. Kaioken may be among those.

Source?

Thanks to BlueBasilisk I have the source for the “Toriyama checks all DB related storyboards” thing: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp (which was also sort of confirmed by Toriyama himself in the manga volume 1 interview with Toyotaro: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/).

I was also finally able to find where it was said that Toriyama is adding anime-only elements to his story, and I actually remembered it well and didn’t just make it up:
(Minute 2:50 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdHqHnK-FvY)
”Mr. Toriyama gives the same rough script to both. The anime and manga are produced independently. We don't discuss who does what. But sometimes, once Mr. Toriyama has watched the anime, he sometimes thinks: “this is a good idea, maybe I will introduce it in my story”. The same goes on the anime side. There is an interaction afterwards."

Here’s further confirmation of Toriyama’s involvement with the writing of Super’s episodes too: https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/859668635656126464

Here there is even further confirmation that Toriyama was indeed in continuous contact with the anime staff: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... vival-arc/

It also seems like they are planning to have Toriyama even more involved than he ever was: https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3904764928
So please, no crying that it wasn’t Toriyama’s idea or that he didn’t approve of it once we see Kaioken in the movie.

This post is basically a resource of proof that Toriyama is involved with anime Super. A lot.

For that first part, I don't think toyo was referring to THE DBS ANIME, he was probably talking about PRE MODERN (GOAT material Toei) toei. Hence why he said "My story" (orginal Db manga).

No one is saying akira has no onvivolment in the dbs anime, but it's believed he's generally more invovled in the dbs manga then in the anime.

That last link, though. SHOOT.
AKIRA TORIYAMA, PLEASE PLASE. NO KAIOKEN OR EVOLUTION. ANY ANIME STAFF WHO DARES QUESTION, THROW THEM OUT!!!! INSIST THIS STORY ONLY USE THINGS FROM YOUR ROUGH DRAFT OR TOYOTAROS MANGA. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SSJ GOD VEGETA WAS AN START, NOW make sure we get MSSJ BLUE...um so refrences to MANGA version of ToP and NOTHING to the anime. Though for the sake of continuity, he's probably going to allow toei to use those filler forms...darn it. This is not looking good...

[Rakurai]

The storyboard bit was from this interview: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

Not really. Toriyama said in a interview he was going to use some of the anime-only ideas in his outlines. Kaioken may be among those.

Source?

Thanks to BlueBasilisk I have the source for the “Toriyama checks all DB related storyboards” thing: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp (which was also sort of confirmed by Toriyama himself in the manga volume 1 interview with Toyotaro: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/).

I was also finally able to find where it was said that Toriyama is adding anime-only elements to his story, and I actually remembered it well and didn’t just make it up:
(Minute 2:50 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdHqHnK-FvY)
”Mr. Toriyama gives the same rough script to both. The anime and manga are produced independently. We don't discuss who does what. But sometimes, once Mr. Toriyama has watched the anime, he sometimes thinks: “this is a good idea, maybe I will introduce it in my story”. The same goes on the anime side. There is an interaction afterwards."

Here’s further confirmation of Toriyama’s involvement with the writing of Super’s episodes too: https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/859668635656126464

Here there is even further confirmation that Toriyama was indeed in continuous contact with the anime staff: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... vival-arc/

It also seems like they are planning to have Toriyama even more involved than he ever was: https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3904764928
So please, no crying that it wasn’t Toriyama’s idea or that he didn’t approve of it once we see Kaioken in the movie.

This post is basically a resource of proof that Toriyama is involved with anime Super. A lot.

I never saw that interview with Toyo before until now. That explains things then, thanks for the link.

Strange how we didn't get character designs for SSB-KK and SSBE but one for SSG Vegeta during SDCC. I'm not saying they won't be in it but it makes it less likely.

[BlueBasilisk]

I never saw that interview with Toyo before until now. That explains things then, thanks for the link.

Strange how we didn't get character designs for SSB-KK and SSBE but one for SSG Vegeta during SDCC. I'm not saying they won't be in it but it makes it less likely.

It is, yeah, but Toriyama apparently turned in 20+ pages of designs for the movie plus whatever Toei came up with while they were doing their work so there's likely a bunch of stuff we haven't seen yet. Like Baggie_Saiyan pointed out, Kaioken might not even need a design sheet since it's normal SSB Goku with a CGI aura and red tint slapped on.

[Miracles]

Kaioken Blue and SSBE both re-use ideas from Toriyama's original manga. Kaioken obviously being Kaioken, with Goku similarly fucking up his body the first time he used it (vs Hit/vs Vegeta), then being able to stabilize it and maximize its power at 20 only to fail against a far superior foe (vs Jiren/vs Frieza). Evolution is essentially just Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2 with a darker hair color and visible pupils. It's more apparent in the model sheet were it has the normal Blue hair color and is just called "Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened."

Yeah I'll give you the Super Saiyan grade two for Vegeta's strengthened Blue as that is a call back to his Cell saga form.
However, Kaioken being used on top of any other form than Goku's base isn't Toriyama original.

[BlueBasilisk]

Kaioken Blue and SSBE both re-use ideas from Toriyama's original manga. Kaioken obviously being Kaioken, with Goku similarly fucking up his body the first time he used it (vs Hit/vs Vegeta), then being able to stabilize it and maximize its power at 20 only to fail against a far superior foe (vs Jiren/vs Frieza). Evolution is essentially just Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2 with a darker hair color and visible pupils. It's more apparent in the model sheet were it has the normal Blue hair color and is just called "Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened."

Yeah I'll give you the Super Saiyan grade two for Vegeta's strengthened Blue as that is a call back to his Cell saga form.
However, Kaioken being used on top of any other form than Goku's base isn't Toriyama original.

I'll give you that. Kaioken was, Kaioken being stacked on another form wasn't something Toriyama wrote. Really it's something he didn't address at all and it didn't have any kind of explanation until it showed up again in Super. I don't really count the Super Kaioken since it was a one-off in a filler arc and passed without comment.

This all got me thinking. The grade forms disappeared because they were replaced with SS2 and weren't needed anymore. How would you feel if Kaioken and Evolution didn't appear but it's because Goku and Vegeta got a brand new Super Saiyan form that's higher than them but below Ultra Instinct? I feel like Toriyama's gonna keep dangling that UI carrot for a while without completely giving it to them.

[shadowfox87]

I was also finally able to find where it was said that Toriyama is adding anime-only elements to his story, and I actually remembered it well and didn’t just make it up:
(Minute 2:50 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdHqHnK-FvY)
”Mr. Toriyama gives the same rough script to both. The anime and manga are produced independently. We don't discuss who does what. But sometimes, once Mr. Toriyama has watched the anime, he sometimes thinks: “this is a good idea, maybe I will introduce it in my story”. The same goes on the anime side. There is an interaction afterwards."

Here’s further confirmation of Toriyama’s involvement with the writing of Super’s episodes too: https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/859668635656126464

Here there is even further confirmation that Toriyama was indeed in continuous contact with the anime staff: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... vival-arc/

It also seems like they are planning to have Toriyama even more involved than he ever was: https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3904764928
So please, no crying that it wasn’t Toriyama’s idea or that he didn’t approve of it once we see Kaioken in the movie.

This post is basically a resource of proof that Toriyama is involved with anime Super. A lot.

None of this is new news. You're showing evidence that Toriyama is in contact with the anime side but leaving out what's in the manga side. It's the same story on both ends. Toriyama sends drafts to both Toei and Toyotaro, each adapt differently. We have interviews showing that Toriyama fully checks all Toyotaro's storyboards and approves them straight away. We also have an interviews where Toriyama says that he has said that whenever he supervises the anime, there's always something that bugs him, but when he looks at Toyotaro's storyboards, he can take it easy and give it the OK in no time flat. It's right here:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/
[spoiler][/spoiler]

In the same interview where Toriyama says he checks all the storyboards of Toyotaro, he also said that if the animators use Toyotaro's manga panels as reference, it should keep them on track. Implying that Toyotaro is already on track.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Back in the day, the anime followed the manga so they could use Toriyama's manga as reference, but they can't do that right now. Thus, information flows through both anime and manga. However, Toyotaro said in the future, his manga will be ahead of the anime.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interv ... ou/.107579
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Basically, none of these interviews predict what Toriyama will do with the movie in terms of adding SSBE or SSB KK. All we can do is wait and see. There's nothing stating that Toriyama will only use anime-exclusive stuff for the anime. SSG Vegeta was borrowed from the manga.

All of these interviews above btw and more, are already in one single thread. I have them in my sig, first thread.

[1345521]

I was also finally able to find where it was said that Toriyama is adding anime-only elements to his story, and I actually remembered it well and didn’t just make it up:
(Minute 2:50 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mdHqHnK-FvY)
”Mr. Toriyama gives the same rough script to both. The anime and manga are produced independently. We don't discuss who does what. But sometimes, once Mr. Toriyama has watched the anime, he sometimes thinks: “this is a good idea, maybe I will introduce it in my story”. The same goes on the anime side. There is an interaction afterwards."

Here’s further confirmation of Toriyama’s involvement with the writing of Super’s episodes too: https://twitter.com/toshio916/status/859668635656126464

Here there is even further confirmation that Toriyama was indeed in continuous contact with the anime staff: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... vival-arc/

It also seems like they are planning to have Toriyama even more involved than he ever was: https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 3904764928
So please, no crying that it wasn’t Toriyama’s idea or that he didn’t approve of it once we see Kaioken in the movie.

This post is basically a resource of proof that Toriyama is involved with anime Super. A lot.

None of this is new news. You're showing evidence that Toriyama is in contact with the anime side but leaving out what's in the manga side. It's the same story on both ends. Toriyama sends drafts to both Toei and Toyotaro, each adapt differently. We have interviews showing that Toriyama fully checks all Toyotaro's storyboards and approves them straight away. We also have an interviews where Toriyama says that he has said that whenever he supervises the anime, there's always something that bugs him, but when he looks at Toyotaro's storyboards, he can take it easy and give it the OK in no time flat. It's right here:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/
[spoiler][/spoiler]

In the same interview where Toriyama says he checks all the storyboards of Toyotaro, he also said that if the animators use Toyotaro's manga panels as reference, it should keep them on track. Implying that Toyotaro is already on track.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Back in the day, the anime followed the manga so they could use Toriyama's manga as reference, but they can't do that right now. Thus, information flows through both anime and manga. However, Toyotaro said in the future, his manga will be ahead of the anime.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interv ... ou/.107579
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Basically, none of these interviews predict what Toriyama will do with the movie in terms of adding SSBE or SSB KK. All we can do is wait and see. There's nothing stating that Toriyama will only use anime-exclusive stuff for the anime. SSG Vegeta was borrowed from the manga.

All of these interviews above btw and more, are already in one single thread. I have them in my sig, first thread.

Thank you!
Though that last part worried me, what does toyotaro mean by "he receives more information then I give them"? And yes, once he gets ahead of them, I hope toei adapts his work! I really hope this movie retcons a lot of the things in the anime.

[shadowfox87]

Kaioken Blue and SSBE both re-use ideas from Toriyama's original manga. Kaioken obviously being Kaioken, with Goku similarly fucking up his body the first time he used it (vs Hit/vs Vegeta), then being able to stabilize it and maximize its power at 20 only to fail against a far superior foe (vs Jiren/vs Frieza). Evolution is essentially just Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2 with a darker hair color and visible pupils. It's more apparent in the model sheet were it has the normal Blue hair color and is just called "Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened."

Another misinterpretation. That tweet from herms is in reply to AnimeAjay who tweeted the designs for SSBE from the Super Anime. I repeat, this is NOT the model sheet for the movie! https://twitter.com/animeajay/status/10 ... 48?lang=en
That is the original tweet. We have no name for the form that Vegeta is using in the movie. All the scans that were showing SSB Vegeta's design in the movie do not show any black pupils. Notice that in Ajay's tweet, we have specifically zoomed into the eyes to show the distinct black pupils. All we know so far is that regular SSB Vegeta will be in the movie, nothing about SSBE so far. It doesn't exclude the possibility though.

[BlueBasilisk]

Kaioken Blue and SSBE both re-use ideas from Toriyama's original manga. Kaioken obviously being Kaioken, with Goku similarly fucking up his body the first time he used it (vs Hit/vs Vegeta), then being able to stabilize it and maximize its power at 20 only to fail against a far superior foe (vs Jiren/vs Frieza). Evolution is essentially just Super Saiyan Blue Grade 2 with a darker hair color and visible pupils. It's more apparent in the model sheet were it has the normal Blue hair color and is just called "Super Saiyan Blue Strengthened."

Another misinterpretation. That tweet from herms is in reply to AnimeAjay who tweeted the designs for SSBE from the Super Anime. I repeat, this is NOT the model sheet for the movie! https://twitter.com/animeajay/status/10 ... 48?lang=en
That is the original tweet. We have no name for the form that Vegeta is using in the movie. All the scans that were showing SSB Vegeta's design in the movie do not show any black pupils. Notice that in Ajay's tweet, we have specifically zoomed into the eyes to show the distinct black pupils. All we know so far is that regular SSB Vegeta will be in the movie, nothing about SSBE so far. It doesn't exclude the possibility though.

Nobody said a word about that model sheet being for the movie. That's from the dvd booklet for the final Super set and is clearly Yamamuro art. I linked it specifically because of his comparison to Super Vegeta.

[Marlowe89]

You're showing evidence that Toriyama is in contact with the anime side but leaving out what's in the manga side.

He is, but in his defense, it's happening on both sides. It's going to keep happening until either: A. the film releases in December in Japan, or B. Broly film materials confirm whether we'll see one (or both) of those forms. We've practically seen it exacerbated with the end of the TV serialization, the ongoing schedule of the manga and all this rampant movie speculation fanning the flames, further combining all three into a massive shit-flinging contest that everyone apparently wants to wage on a daily basis.

Absolutely embarrassing.

[1345521]

You're showing evidence that Toriyama is in contact with the anime side but leaving out what's in the manga side.

He is, but in his defense, it's happening on both sides. It's going to keep happening until either: A. the film releases in December in Japan, or B. Broly film materials confirm whether we'll see one (or both) of those forms. We've practically seen it exacerbated with the end of the TV serialization, the ongoing schedule of the manga and all this rampant movie speculation fanning the flames, further combining all three into a massive shit-flinging contest that everyone apparently wants to wage on a daily basis.

Absolutely embarrassing.

? What so you mean "sh%t-flinging" contest?

[Miracles]

I'll give you that. Kaioken was, Kaioken being stacked on another form wasn't something Toriyama wrote. Really it's something he didn't address at all and it didn't have any kind of explanation until it showed up again in Super. I don't really count the Super Kaioken since it was a one-off in a filler arc and passed without comment.

This all got me thinking. The grade forms disappeared because they were replaced with SS2 and weren't needed anymore. How would you feel if Kaioken and Evolution didn't appear but it's because Goku and Vegeta got a brand new Super Saiyan form that's higher than them but below Ultra Instinct? I feel like Toriyama's gonna keep dangling that UI carrot for a while without completely giving it to them.

So far, after looking at the movie images, I feel Toriyama is gonna go strictly basic. Yellow, red and blue.

[emperior]

You're showing evidence that Toriyama is in contact with the anime side but leaving out what's in the manga side.

He is, but in his defense, it's happening on both sides. It's going to keep happening until either: A. the film releases in December in Japan, or B. Broly film materials confirm whether we'll see one (or both) of those forms. We've practically seen it exacerbated with the end of the TV serialization, the ongoing schedule of the manga and all this rampant movie speculation fanning the flames, further combining all three into a massive shit-flinging contest that everyone apparently wants to wage on a daily basis.

Absolutely embarrassing.

I never wanted to start the anime vs manga war yet again. Actually it was Shadowfox who did.
All I did was to provide some proof that Toriyama is more involved with the anime side than what people think. We knew directly from Toyotaro’s word and his interviews that Toriyama checks his work and also corrects it sometimes, but the same happens with the anime and if Toriyama was OK with SSG reappearing and Vegeta using it too in the manga (and he confirmed he supervised those parts and the anime too brought SSG back for Goku and now for Vegeta) then he was also fine with Goku using Kaioken with Blue and Vegeta achieving a transformation above Blue.
That’s all. Maybe he won’t utilize those power-ups in the movie, but I assure you all: Toei didn’t just include these new forms to Toriyama’s obliviousness.

[VegettoEX]

Viewpoints that you do not agree with should not be reported to the moderation team.

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That being said, all users would do well to review the community guidelines and strive for something better.

[Marlowe89]

Tensions must be higher than I thought if people are getting falsely reported over this stuff. Yikes.

Anyway, in an attempt to reel myself back into the topic: Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution making an appearance won't break the film for me. I don't personally like either one of them (especially Evolution) and if I had it my way they wouldn't be included, but my enjoyment of a potentially well-written story doesn't depend on transformations. It's largely going to come down to whether Toei considers their own extraneous concepts a necessity for Toriyama's plot; hopefully not, but we'll see.

[emperior]

Tensions must be higher than I thought if people are getting falsely reported over this stuff. Yikes.

Anyway, in an attempt to reel myself back into the topic: Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution making an appearance won't break the film for me. I don't personally like either one of them (especially Evolution) and if I had it my way they wouldn't be included, but my enjoyment of a potentially well-written story doesn't depend on transformations. It's largely going to come down to whether Toei considers their own extraneous concepts a necessity for Toriyama's plot; hopefully not, but we'll see.

If the forms appear in the movie, it will be with Toriyama's approval. I am ok with Kaioken being in, but Evolution was really bad and it can disappear forever.
I would rather see mastered SSB being taken from the manga, and Goku mixing it with Kaioken. Actually Toriyama borrowing the best ideas ideas from both the anime and the manga would be ideal. I just hope it will be clear the movie is a continuation of the anime because it would also mean we get no retelling if Super comes back as a weekly TV show. And the manga is already adapting the movie so of course it means the movie won’t be the continuation of Toyotaro’s manga.

(False reports are ridiculous, by the way. And frankly, this anime vs manga war going on lately is too)

[BlueBasilisk]

Tensions must be higher than I thought if people are getting falsely reported over this stuff. Yikes.

Anyway, in an attempt to reel myself back into the topic: Blue Kaioken and Blue Evolution making an appearance won't break the film for me. I don't personally like either one of them (especially Evolution) and if I had it my way they wouldn't be included, but my enjoyment of a potentially well-written story doesn't depend on transformations. It's largely going to come down to whether Toei considers their own extraneous concepts a necessity for Toriyama's plot; hopefully not, but we'll see.

And is it really that big a deal if they don't? I'd certainly like it if they would, but as long as there's an explanation for why they don't that's fine too, I think. Kaioken was written with a built-in kill switch with the Delay Onset Ki Disorder thing and they could always say that SSBE burns up too much energy or has some other flaw that makes it less efficient than Blue despite its much greater power. In-universe Vegeta only used it for what, 5 or 6 minutes?

I just hope it will be clear the movie is a continuation of the anime because it would also mean we get no retelling if Super comes back as a weekly TV show. And the manga is already adapting the movie so of course it means the movie won’t be the continuation of Toyotaro’s manga.

(False reports are ridiculous, by the way. And frankly, this anime vs manga war going on lately is too)

This is why I'd like them to appear or for the characters to at least acknowledge that they happened, for the sake of continuity and because I don't want to see another movie shunted off into Third Continuity status like BoG and RoF, although RoF's in kind of a weird place because the only manga adaptation says to watch the movie which...doesn't really fit with the rest of the manga. Super might re-adapt the story of the movie for viewers who didn't see the movie like the previous two were, but with on-demand streaming services being so prevalent now it should be easier for viewers to have access to the movie, and this one is being written with an on going series in mind while the other two presumably weren't. And didn't BoG/RoF have some kind of rights issues with 20th Century Fox?

[PFM18]

This is why I'd like them to appear or for the characters to at least acknowledge that they happened, for the sake of continuity and because I don't want to see another movie shunted off into Third Continuity status like BoG and RoF, although RoF's in kind of a weird place because the only manga adaptation says to watch the movie which...doesn't really fit with the rest of the manga.

Yeah exactly. We don't want this movie to end up like BoG and RoF where they don't fit in the continuity and just cause continuity issued so if the two forms aren't used they should at least be acknowledged. If neither happen we are going to have problems. We don't want a manga situation where we have a movie that is supposed to be part of the continuity but doesn't fit at all whatsoever with the rest of the manga.

I think I am in the minority here but I love Evolution and it's appearance in the movie is probably going to be heavily tied in with my enjoyment of the movie.

[1345521]

No offence to you all but your wishes won'tr really matter, what more so matters is akira and the fans at large. What makes most sense is that this movie will only go by the plot outlines akira set for each arc, thos are the call backs he will make. I doubt this movie will play much side to either party (though it's already playing one side to the manga with ssj god vegeta). The anime and manga will then come an adapt the movie in their seperate arcs. This is the most reasonable, and this is the most likely. Because why would akira go out of his way to freence toei-filler forms which to him..don't even exist? this is the most logical and probable. What you see now, is porbably be what is.
Evlution won't exist
kaioken won't exist
mssj blue won't exist
None of them since they aren't akiras and I doubkt akiras is going to play favorite to one side of the camp.
Manga continuity (offcial continuation of OG db manga so I HOPE THIS movie is based on manga events)
Anime continuity
Movie continuty

[Marlowe89]

I would rather see mastered SSB being taken from the manga, and Goku mixing it with Kaioken. Actually Toriyama borrowing the best ideas ideas from both the anime and the manga would be ideal.

That'd be pretty interesting. I'm much more okay with Kaioken than with Evolution, personally.

And is it really that big a deal if they don't? I'd certainly like it if they would, but as long as there's an explanation for why they don't that's fine too, I think.

I just don't think continuity matters as much to the parties overseeing the franchise as it does to the fans; the whole idea of branching Super off into two differently-told mediums in the first place would already call their dedication to such a concept into question, I think. As far as Toriyama seems to be concerned, he's working with two different groups independently constructing their own unique spin on his story, but it's still his story at its core. It wouldn't be surprising to me in the least if the movie doesn't acknowledge the existence of those forms, so I think people should at least brace themselves for that possibility. Same goes for the opposite scenario, too.