Now that DBS is over what do you think of "two base theory"?

[Marlowe89]

I feel like you are quickly becoming very condescending towards other people in this discussion

I'm not being condescending towards anyone in particular, but I genuinely think that the motive behind this thread is all too transparent. You've involved yourself in this exact debate several times here while constantly issuing the same points and receiving the same counterpoints over and over. I think you're less interested in earnestly learning other viewpoints as you've implied in the OP; clearly, you created this thread to argue against those other perspectives. It doesn't come across as very sincere.

In the DBS anime he just uses God Ki with Super Saiyan hence the phrasing of "Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" or whatever the exact verbatim was. Where the SSG portion boils down to just meaning using God Ki.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't necessarily use divine ki, since it's defined as a Saiyan with the power (i.e. strength) of Super Saiyan God. Even if it was, we do see Goku and Vegeta momentarily use divine ki in their base forms during two scenes in Episode 20 and Episode 22, respectively; that "divine ki base" is just never used in combat.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think it exists anymore. When the movies of BoG and RoF were happening, a lot of things were different which got altered as we got into U6. I fully believe if the re-tellings of Super happened a few months later with the newer rules in mind, they would've completely cut out the idea of an SSGod empowered Base state and God only being a temporary form.

[Mister_Popo]

I feel like you are quickly becoming very condescending towards other people in this discussion

I'm not being condescending towards anyone in particular, but I genuinely think that the motive behind this thread is all too transparent. You've involved yourself in this exact debate several times here while constantly issuing the same points and receiving the same counterpoints over and over. I think you're less interested in earnestly learning other viewpoints as you've implied in the OP; clearly, you created this thread to argue against those other perspectives. It doesn't come across as very sincere.

In the DBS anime he just uses God Ki with Super Saiyan hence the phrasing of "Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" or whatever the exact verbatim was. Where the SSG portion boils down to just meaning using God Ki.

Saiyan Beyond God doesn't necessarily use divine ki, since it's defined as a Saiyan with the power (i.e. strength) of Super Saiyan God. Even if it was, we do see Goku and Vegeta momentarily use divine ki in their base forms during two scenes in Episode 20 and Episode 22, respectively; that "godly base" is just never used in combat.

Why couldn't Saiyan Beyond God have been the 'Omen-form' of Super Saiyan God? It has the power of a SSJG, but it's not exactly the same as the true SSJ God that has returned from TOP onwards.

[PFM18]

I don't think it exists anymore. When the movies of BoG and RoF were happening, a lot of things were different which got altered as we got into U6.

You don't think what exists anymore exactly? The "two base thery"?

I fully believe if the re-tellings of Super happened a few months later with the newer rules in mind, they would've completely cut out the idea of an SSGod empowered Base state and God only being a temporary form.

I agree with this from what I understand what you are saying. I think the movies confuse a lot of people rather than looking at Super as it's own entity. The current Base is not "SSG empowered"I can agree with it that.

You've involved yourself in this exact debate several times here while constantly issuing the same points and receiving the same counterpoints over and over.

Not with Kanzenshuu members no. I have had this "exact debate several times" with you in particular but otherwise these conversations are very brief and don't remotely fit the description that you just gave.

I think you're less interested in earnestly learning other viewpoints as you've implied in the OP; clearly, you created this thread to argue against those other perspectives. It doesn't come across as very sincere.

You say this like these things are mutually exclusive. I want to learn other people's viewpoints on the matter and I want to argue my position also. Essentially I created this topic to have a friendly discussion on the matter. A friendly discussion in which your inclusion isn't particularly conducive to it given your history.

defined as a Saiyan with the power (i.e. strength) of Super Saiyan God.

Ok but the original strength of Super Saiyan God is obviously a function of the God Ki associated with it.

[Marlowe89]

I don't think it exists anymore. When the movies of BoG and RoF were happening, a lot of things were different which got altered as we got into U6. I fully believe if the re-tellings of Super happened a few months later with the newer rules in mind, they would've completely cut out the idea of an SSGod empowered Base state and God only being a temporary form.

Same here. I'd wager that this is partially because Toei wasn't aware of how Toriyama intended the story to develop during the production of those two retellings. I don't think that's Toei's fault, but I do think they changed it to match up with everything else in the franchise.

The fact that there are wildly conflicting interpretations in the first place shows that they weren't as clear-cut about it as some people would like to believe.

Not with Kanzenshuu members no. I have had this "exact debate several times" with you in particular

With myself and other Kanzenshuu members, yes. Whether you had them multiple times with the same member is irrelevant to my point and has nothing to do with the description I just gave. "Several times" just means "several times", it's not aimed at any one person.

Ok but the original strength of Super Saiyan God is obviously a function of the God Ki associated with it.

Having the power of Super Saiyan God isn't necessarily the same as having divine ki. That was established during the BoG arc as well as in materials for the RoF movie.

[Mister_Popo]

Ok but the original strength of Super Saiyan God is obviously a function of the God Ki associated with it.

Having the power of Super Saiyan God isn't necessarily the same as having divine ki. That was established during the BoG arc as well as in materials for the RoF movie.

That's probably the reason why there are so many discussions about this subject. It's not that clearly established in the source material.

It's pretty onvious Goku uses divine Ki in his Blue and Red-forms. But what happened during ROF when SSJG at will didn't exist or wasn't shown, stays controversial to say the least.

[PFM18]

Whether you had them multiple times with the same member is irrelevant to my point

I wasn't discussing whether or not I had this discussion with the same member multiple times. Not sure why you even said this.

has nothing to do with the description I just gave. "Several times" just means "several times", it's not aimed at any one person.

I am just saying that outside of my discussions with you and one other person who happens to be banned at the moment, I haven't really had any real full-length discussions on the matter on Kanzenshuu. If I just briefly describe my stance to somebody else and they briefly describe theirs and there are no counterpoints involved and those types of discussions don't fit the description that you gave. That is why this thread is necessary to me.

That's probably the reason why there are so many discussions about this subject. It's not that clearly established in the source material.

That specific portion seems pretty open to interpretation and that is why there is some disagreement there. But I mean to some extent almost everything is open to interpretation in terms of power in this series. This scene isn't an exception in that sense, though I would have liked if they had made it more clear.

[Marlowe89]

I haven't really had any real full-length discussions on the matter on Kanzenshuu.

You have with at least three different users. I'm not going to dwell on this point though, so I'll end it here.

It's pretty onvious Goku uses divine Ki in his Blue and Red-forms. But what happened during ROF when SSJG at will didn't exist or wasn't shown, stays controversial to say the least.

It's probably going to stay that way. My solution is always to look at what the writers currently intend rather than what they may have intended several arcs ago, which involves analyzing the material and dialogue strictly as it's presented to us case by case.

Also, I wish I still had it (the image link is broken now) but there was also supplementary guide material in a magazine for Super that advocated for a linear transformation line of all five of Goku's Super Saiyan forms. No matter how you interpret the intent behind the RoF atc, it's clear that the hierarchy has been streamlined from what it used to be either way.

[ankokudaishogun]

'Saiyan beyond God' probably has become 'Super Saiyan God', with enough training. That's how i headcanon this.
Base is always normal base. Second baseform probably doesn't exist anymore at this point.

Yeah, same here.
Before, there were Normal Ki Base and God Ki Base(aka Beyond God).

With time and training, Goku and Vegeta managed to master the use of God Ki, making the God Ki Base automatically transform them into SSG

[sintzu]

I think it's a theory by fans looking too much into something that doesn't exist.

[Saturnine]

Well it isn't needed. The "absorbed SSG" boosted Goku to such a point that his SSJ equaled the SSG from a moment prior.

Yeah, and that's exactly what we call Saiyan Beyond God, lol

The resulting boost from that and the training that followed that is more than enough to make SSJ3 Gotenks fodder. "Saiyan Beyond God" is not required for this to be explained.

It totally is.

[PFM18]

Well it isn't needed. The "absorbed SSG" boosted Goku to such a point that his SSJ equaled the SSG from a moment prior.

Yeah, and that's exactly what we call Saiyan Beyond God, lol

The resulting boost from that and the training that followed that is more than enough to make SSJ3 Gotenks fodder. "Saiyan Beyond God" is not required for this to be explained.

It totally is.

"Saiyan Beyond God" usually refers to the base form iteration in the RoF movie where they use God Ki in their base and it is stronger than SSG. This form rendered the golden SSJ transformations useless and they weren't used in that movie. However, in DBS there isn't a "godly base" they use normal Ki and it isn't a form that renders the SSJ forms useless.

Now, some people think that BOTH "Saiyan Beyond God" and a normal base exist in DBS but that just doesn't appear to be the case. In BoG Goku receeived a power boost when the ritual expired that made his SSJ=SSG. In terms of functionality in doesn't mean anything more than just a power boost, it doesn't change their other forms and what not or what kind of ki they use or anything like that.

In terms of "Saiyan Beyond God" being needed to beat SSJ3 Gotenks, I don't believe so and I will try to illustrate this quantitatively.

BoG Arc
SSJ3 Goku: 1
SSJ3 Gotenks: 8
SSG Goku: 20,000
SSJ Goku(post-ritual):20,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 400

Without taking into account any training that boosted his power far beyond this 400 figure, it would still be plenty of power for SSJ3 Gotenks and a form that serves as essentially a black palette swap of Super Saiyan God(Saiyan Beyond God) is not necessary IMO.

[Mister_Popo]

Well it isn't needed. The "absorbed SSG" boosted Goku to such a point that his SSJ equaled the SSG from a moment prior.

BoG Arc
SSJ3 Goku: 1
SSJ3 Gotenks: 8
SSG Goku: 20,000
SSJ Goku(post-ritual):20,000
Base Goku(post-ritual): 400

Without taking into account any training that boosted his power far beyond this 400 figure, it would still be plenty of power for SSJ3 Gotenks and a form that serves as essentially a black palette swap of Super Saiyan God(Saiyan Beyond God) is not necessary IMO.

I agree with you if these are the numbers for BOG.
And i am no powerscaling expert but I have troubles believing ''400' would be his starting power in the beginning of ROF.
SSJ3 Goku is already 400 times normal base at the start of BOG.
That would mean "400" at the start of ROF is actually 160 000 times base at the start of BOG, without any Whis training, without the use of God-Ki.
That would also mean Goku was way stronger than Vegeta at the beginning of Whis' training.
In that case (Blue) Goku would have emerged way way stronger than Vegeta during the fight with Freeza, which he wasn't.

I think it's more plausible, realist what happened at the end of BOG was mainly a temporary effect IMHO.
His base could have somehow improved by the events during BOG, but not by that margin.

[Lord Frieza]

I've talked about this theory of mine befor.

After BoG, Toriyama stated that Goku would not use SS2 or 3 again, just focus of normal SS. This is were the saiyan beyond god concept was spawned. As of his fight with Beerus, Goku had absorbed the god power and was now far more powerful. However Toei likely were not on board with dumping the other form or at least not having something new to market and sell. This is were SSGSS comes in, I think the form was his way of meeting them half way. A reworking of the standard SS form. Nothing radically changed but with a new enough spin to sell merch.


At this point Saiyan Beyond God was a thing and I speculate that SSGSS was planned to become Goku's sole transformation at that point.


For what ever reason, things changed during the planning for Super. The first sign was during the U6 arc with Goku and Vegeta wiping out the classic SS form once again. By the time we got to the Black arc it's clear the "drop all the old forms" idea had been completely dumped as Goku and Vegeta made active use of all their old forms. The final nail in the coffin for the SBG was in the ToP arc were the seemingly one time only form SSG, a form speculated to have merged with base Goku to create the SBG state, was now being used as a active transformation that Goku could use like any other.

[PFM18]

I agree with you if these are the numbers for BOG.

Yes these are my numbers for BoG.

That would also mean Goku was way stronger than Vegeta at the beginning of Whis' training.
In that case (Blue) Goku would have emerged way way stronger than Vegeta during the fight with Freeza, which he wasn't.

I think it's more plausible, realist what happened at the end of BOG was mainly a temporary effect IMHO.
His base could have somehow improved by the events during BOG, but not by that margin.

Regardless of what you consider happened during BoG, when Goku showed up at Whis's planet he said to Vegeta "your ki is unrecognizable from what it was on earth. You might even be stronger than me!"

So your idea that Blue Goku automatically being way stronger than Blue Vegeta if the god boost wasn't temporary is contradicted by this statement. Vegeta trained with Whis for 6 months before Goku did and he duplicated the boost Goku got from the ritual. Goku was just farming for Chi Chi and hardly training during that time. If the boost was temporary then Vegeta would have been WAY stronger than Goku since his ki was "unrecognizable" from what it was on Earth and yet Goku says he might be stronger than him. So when they start training together on Whis's planet they are pretty much equals and that is why their SSB forms emerge as equals. Vegeta had a 6 month head start with Whis over Goku though. So really, this sequence of events pretty much shows that it was not a temporary boost.

For what ever reason, things changed during the planning for Super. The first sign was during the U6 arc with Goku and Vegeta wiping out the classic SS form once again. By the time we got to the Black arc it's clear the "drop all the old forms" idea had been completely dumped as Goku and Vegeta made active use of all their old forms. The final nail in the coffin for the SBG was in the ToP arc were the seemingly one time only form SSG, a form speculated to have merged with base Goku to create the SBG state, was now being used as a active transformation that Goku could use like any other.

Yeah for one reason or another they retconned SBG going from the movie continuity to the DBS anime continuity.

[BlueBasilisk]

I feel like this is quickly devolving into the same countless debates and points already made/addressed within the strength discussion thread.

Whis says that he never told Goku and Vegeta that they couldn't transform during his training. They elected not to because his training was to help them see the "bigger picture."

To be fair, Dokkan Battle follows the movie's continuity and includes a similar subplot. Whis trains Goku to become stronger without transforming, Goku eventually reaches the level of Super Saiyan God on his own, then Whis tells him to transform after his training objective is complete; unlocking "the Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Whis shortens this term to SSGSS.

I might have been inclined to agree with the opposition if Goku's description of Blue wasn't the same as the film's, but it is, and Vegeta himself echoes the same statement in the Copy Vegeta arc. If not a retcon, it would certainly have to represent a scripting oversight of some kind.

I find Goku's description one of the bigger headscratchers in this whole debate because it seems wholly at odds with how Blue is shown to work prior to that point, which was a byproduct of internalizing and increasing ones' ki. It's not explicitly clarified whether that by itself will significantly boost one's power. Whis says the point is to keep your enemy off balance by hiding your ki from them so they won't know when you're powering up. When they're training in the staff, Vegeta says it generates an intense pressure and Goku says it's harsh to maintain. They're put in the staff to get stronger faster but the way Beerus and Whis talk makes it sound like its' the harsh conditions and the strain of keeping their energy internalized that's going to make them stronger rather than simply utilizing god ki by itself. I believe the Frieza fight shows that it doesn't. Goku powers up with a white aura while he's clashing with Frieza but doesn't get weaker like you would expect if he was using Whis' technique. And if he could get stronger by using god ki, why would he say he couldn't beat Frieza without going Super Saiyan instead of turning on the god ki and pulverizing him?

Goku's description is that he is "A Saiyan with the powers of Super Saiyan God who is a Super Saiyan." In light of what happens later, the best I can figure here is that learning to use god ki re-enabled the use of Super Saiyan God and Blue along with it. Part of the problem is that it's never clarified whether Goku CAN still use Super Saiyan God until much later in the series. It's easy to assume he can't since he doesn't until episode 104, but at the same time the series never actually tells the audience that he can't. It's sort of the same with Vegeta being able to use Super Saiyan God. All the show tells you as far as I can recall is that he rejects the ritual before training with Whis because the form didn't get the job done against Beerus, but it never says specifically says he doesn't have it. Someone did ask Toshio if Vegeta could use SSG and he said he believed he could, for what that's worth.

I had issues with Goku's description in the movie too. It never addresses why Goku was able to transform into a gold-haired Super Saiyan when fighting Beerus instead of turning Blue. Why they didn't just say it's the Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God I don't know. That's very clearly what it is.

Here's the way I look at it:
[spoiler][/spoiler]Based on the scenes I mentioned above, I'd lowball base Goku as being somewhere between unfused Super Buu and Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan, skewing much closer to the latter than the former. He could easily be stronger but I don't really have anything to base that on. Being more than 50x stronger than Super Buu is pretty insane when the later Super Saiyan forms were only improving on their predecessors by 2x and 4x.

[SSJgogeto]

'Saiyan beyond God' probably has become 'Super Saiyan God', with enough training. That's how i headcanon this.
Base is always normal base. Second baseform probably doesn't exist anymore at this point.

Yeah, same here.

Agreed. However, until the next movie shows otherwise, I think it'll only works if the saiyan was SS God before, like Goku. So, for now I don't think this happened with Vegeta.

[PFM18]

"A Saiyan with the powers of Super Saiyan God who is a Super Saiyan."

Essentially paraphrasing what he said it appears to me what he is referring to the fact that SSB is a combination of SSJ and God Ki. This "power of a Super Saiyan God" in this context would refer to using God Ki. It would make sense that:

SSG = using God Ki
SSB = using God Ki + SSJ

[Mister_Popo]

I agree with you if these are the numbers for BOG.

Regardless of what you consider happened during BoG, when Goku showed up at Whis's planet he said to Vegeta "your ki is unrecognizable from what it was on earth. You might even be stronger than me!"

So your idea that Blue Goku automatically being way stronger than Blue Vegeta if the god boost wasn't temporary is contradicted by this statement. Vegeta trained with Whis for 6 months before Goku did and he duplicated the boost Goku got from the ritual. Goku was just farming for Chi Chi and hardly training during that time. If the boost was temporary then Vegeta would have been WAY stronger than Goku since his ki was "unrecognizable" from what it was on Earth and yet Goku says he might be stronger than him. So when they start training together on Whis's planet they are pretty much equals and that is why their SSB forms emerge as equals. Vegeta had a 6 month head start with Whis over Goku though. So really, this sequence of events pretty much shows that it was not a temporary boost.

[

Ah, i didn't rememder that one, i though they were going on to Whis to train together from the beginning.

But still ... Is that the new baseform, from ROF onwards, were we build everything on from there?
160 000 whilst Saiyan Beyond God / Super Saiyan God isn't even a factor?
There is no reference whatsoever Goku nor Vegeta have such strong baseforms during the rest of the series, unless you retcon the events of BOG-ROF completely.
It simply makes a lot of opponents extremely strong, that aren't meant to be nearly that strong.
One might headcanon the SBG / SSJG part by stating they evolved in one another.
This, however would require a total retcon to stay anywhere feasible IMHO.

[PFM18]

But still ... Is that the new baseform, from ROF onwards, were we build everything on from there?
160 000 whilst Saiyan Beyond God / Super Saiyan God isn't even a factor?

Yes exactly.That is the new baseform it is just simply very strong. Saiyan Beyond God is not a thing. Nothing further than Goku's power changed, it is strictly a matter of through experiencing that power he had "made it his own" is the phrasing Beerus uses multiple times. Super Saiyan God can still be used simply by tapping into God Ki where SSB is a result of the combination of SSJ and God Ki.

There is no reference whatsoever Goku nor Vegeta have such strong baseforms during the rest of the series, unless you retcon the events of BOG-ROF completely.

Well considering that prior to the ritual it appears Goku was weaker than Namek Freeza in his Base, the following events could only really be rationalized by this super strong Base form:

1. Base Goku fights evenly with a Final Form Freeza who's 1st form dominated everybody else.
2. Copy Vegeta who is identical to Base Vegeta dominates SSJ3 Gotenks in his base form.
3. Goku fights Beerus(Monaka Suit) in his base form and is strong enough for Beerus to consider it entertaining. So, at the very bare minimum, his base is much stronger than his pre-ritual SSJ3 self as seen by what happened on King Kai's planet.
4. Base Goku fights evenly/on par with Fat Buu who had trained and become significantly stronger.

It simply makes a lot of opponents extremely strong, that aren't meant to be nearly that strong.

How do you arbitrarily decide that the opponents weren't meant to be nearly that strong?