Now that DBS is over what do you think of "two base theory"?

[PFM18]

I was discussing this on another forum and wanted to see what you guys' thoughts on the matter. Do a "Saiyan Beyond God" and a normal base exist simultaneously?

[Bergamo]

This is 100% true in the movies but 100% false in the manga. I don't know about the anime, though.

[TysonWine]

Do a "Saiyan Beyond God" and a normal base exist simultaneously?

No. That's been retconned out of Super for some time. Outside of the ROF saga, the last time "Saiyan Beyond God" was used was when Copy Vegeta bullied SSJ3 Gotenks.

[Zamasu55]

The manga made it clear unlike the anime which is a complete mess.

[PFM18]

Do a "Saiyan Beyond God" and a normal base exist simultaneously?

No. That's been retconned out of Super for some time. Outside of the ROF saga, the last time "Saiyan Beyond God" was used was when Copy Vegeta bullied SSJ3 Gotenks.

I know this is my thread and I really should stay neutral but....

"Saiyan Beyond God" existed in only in the movies. They had a base that could use God Ki and whenever they transform they turn into SSB. This was stated in all of the promotional material. Having a godly Base that is stronger/equivalent to the SSG form would completely render the golden SSJ transformations useless and that was the intention in the RoF movie. However, it is clearly shown that Goku and Vegeta's base no longer have god ki and they can still access their golden SSJ forms and SSG. So Super retconned RoF in every way. "Saiyan Beyond God" was not used as Copy Vegeta or any other time in the DBS anime continuity.

The manga made it clear unlike the anime which is a complete mess.

The manga went the simpler route by completely getting rid of the "space scene" where Goku absorbs SSG and attains the proverbial "god boost." Again, the simpler route. Nothing is objectively better about it. However, apparently simpler is always better as seen with all of the confusion this has caused within the fandom.

[Mister_Popo]

'Saiyan beyond God' probably has become 'Super Saiyan God', with enough training. That's how i headcanon this.
Base is always normal base. Second baseform probably doesn't exist anymore at this point.

[Marlowe89]

No. That's been retconned out of Super for some time. Outside of the ROF saga, the last time "Saiyan Beyond God" was used was when Copy Vegeta bullied SSJ3 Gotenks.

This is more than likely the correct answer.

Super initially defines Super Saiyan Blue in the same way that Resurrection 'F' does -- the Super Saiyan level of a "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", which is a self-explanatory reference to Saiyan Beyond God. This was clearly changed for later arcs, presumably to help make the series feel a little more cohesive across all mediums.

So two bases technically exist if you look at different points of the franchise, just never at the same time.

[TysonWine]

Do a "Saiyan Beyond God" and a normal base exist simultaneously?

No. That's been retconned out of Super for some time. Outside of the ROF saga, the last time "Saiyan Beyond God" was used was when Copy Vegeta bullied SSJ3 Gotenks.

I know this is my thread and I really should stay neutral but....

"Saiyan Beyond God" existed in only in the movies. They had a base that could use God Ki and whenever they transform they turn into SSB. This was stated in all of the promotional material. Having a godly Base that is stronger/equivalent to the SSG form would completely render the golden SSJ transformations useless and that was the intention in the RoF movie. However, it is clearly shown that Goku and Vegeta's base no longer have god ki and they can still access their golden SSJ forms and SSG. So Super retconned RoF in every way. "Saiyan Beyond God" was not used as Copy Vegeta or any other time in the DBS anime continuity.

Why, thank you. I'm very anti "two base" theory, and mentioned the Copy Vegeta arc strictly for those who would use that as evidence that "Saiyan Beyond God" existed in Super. It would explain base Copy Vegeta toying with SSJ3 Gotenks if it was a thing

[PFM18]

No. That's been retconned out of Super for some time. Outside of the ROF saga, the last time "Saiyan Beyond God" was used was when Copy Vegeta bullied SSJ3 Gotenks.

I know this is my thread and I really should stay neutral but....

"Saiyan Beyond God" existed in only in the movies. They had a base that could use God Ki and whenever they transform they turn into SSB. This was stated in all of the promotional material. Having a godly Base that is stronger/equivalent to the SSG form would completely render the golden SSJ transformations useless and that was the intention in the RoF movie. However, it is clearly shown that Goku and Vegeta's base no longer have god ki and they can still access their golden SSJ forms and SSG. So Super retconned RoF in every way. "Saiyan Beyond God" was not used as Copy Vegeta or any other time in the DBS anime continuity.

Why, thank you. I'm very anti "two base" theory, and mentioned the Copy Vegeta arc strictly for those who would use that as evidence that "Saiyan Beyond God" existed in Super. It would explain base Copy Vegeta toying with SSJ3 Gotenks if it was a thing

Well it isn't needed. The "absorbed SSG" boosted Goku to such a point that his SSJ equaled the SSG from a moment prior. The resulting boost from that and the training that followed that is more than enough to make SSJ3 Gotenks fodder. "Saiyan Beyond God" is not required for this to be explained.

"Saiyan Beyond God" only exists in the movie continuity and DBS retconned it. However, DBS does not retcon itself but rather the way the power works in the RoF movie was retconned.

'Saiyan beyond God' probably has become 'Super Saiyan God', with enough training. That's how i headcanon this.
Base is always normal base. Second baseform probably doesn't exist anymore at this point.

And there's no evidence of it's existence in the first place.

[Mister_Popo]

I know this is my thread and I really should stay neutral but....

"Saiyan Beyond God" existed in only in the movies. They had a base that could use God Ki and whenever they transform they turn into SSB. This was stated in all of the promotional material. Having a godly Base that is stronger/equivalent to the SSG form would completely render the golden SSJ transformations useless and that was the intention in the RoF movie. However, it is clearly shown that Goku and Vegeta's base no longer have god ki and they can still access their golden SSJ forms and SSG. So Super retconned RoF in every way. "Saiyan Beyond God" was not used as Copy Vegeta or any other time in the DBS anime continuity.

Why, thank you. I'm very anti "two base" theory, and mentioned the Copy Vegeta arc strictly for those who would use that as evidence that "Saiyan Beyond God" existed in Super. It would explain base Copy Vegeta toying with SSJ3 Gotenks if it was a thing

Well it isn't needed. The "absorbed SSG" boosted Goku to such a point that his SSJ equaled the SSG from a moment prior. The resulting boost from that and the training that followed that is more than enough to make SSJ3 Gotenks fodder. "Saiyan Beyond God" is not required for this to be explained.

"Saiyan Beyond God" only exists in the movie continuity and DBS retconned it. However, DBS does not retcon itself but rather the way the power works in the RoF movie was retconned.

'Saiyan beyond God' probably has become 'Super Saiyan God', with enough training. That's how i headcanon this.
Base is always normal base. Second baseform probably doesn't exist anymore at this point.

And there's no evidence of it's existence in the first place.

'Godly Base' existed during BOG and ROF.
I think they could have prevented a lot of confusion with the fans by using SSJG against True form Freeza again in stead of Godly base.
At the end of BOG they emphasized he had lost the transformation of SSJG but he still had kept the divine power (temporarily) with Beerus.
The power wasn't still really his, he needed a lot more training for that. From that perspective i understand why Godly Base or SSJ1 was used at the end of BOG.
From ROF onwards they'd better have used SSJG again, because he had really made the power his (permanently) through extented divine training with Whis.

[PFM18]

at the end of BOG they emphasized he has lost the transformation of SSJG but he still had kept the divine power (temporarily) with Beerus.

he "learned from the experience" and "made that power his own" in which he had regular ki instead of God Ki after he dropped out of SSG. He literally just got a giant power boost from it and that is it. He didn't have the "divine power" since he didn't have God Ki and it was never indicated to be temporary. A power boost that made his SSJ=SSG. He still had regular ki and he had the normal transformations so there was never any "godly base" where he had God Ki in DBS. Vegeta duplicated this power boost when he trained with Whis for 6 months and became on par with Goku after his "god boost."

[BlueBasilisk]

Not in the anime. It's never mentioned and Battle of Gods' arc version makes it more clear that Goku retained the borrowed power in his Super Saiyan form rather than his base form which was strengthened significantly not only from that but also from the training with Whis before the RoF arc. Likewise there's no evidence that the Super Saiyan forms were intended to go away in the anime as Goku uses SS1 to finish off his fight against Beerus and Whis says that he never told Goku and Vegeta that they couldn't transform during his training. They elected not to because his training was to help them see the "bigger picture." Goku also mentions in Resurrection F that he wanted to see if he could beat Frieza without transforming, which is why he didn't go Super Saiyan.

There's still evidence that Goku's base is much stronger even into the ToP arc, such as him going in against Super Fit Buu without transforming, him being able to stop Piccolo's charged explosive wave after Piccolo easily manhandled SS2 Gohan a couple episodes earlier, and him still being relatively close in power to Final Form Frieza who is stated to be stronger than he was in Resurrection F where he was terrorizing everyone in his imp form. The anime didn't pull Goku and Vegeta back, it rubber banded the others forward, which is why we have things like Piccolo being able to defeat a Super Saiyan 2 when he had previously fallen behind even the Super Saiyan 1s and Gohan getting strong enough to reasonably challenge the likes of Dyspo and Golden Frieza after a day of Piccolo's boot camp.

The only solid comparison we have to something from DBZ is the thing between Copy Vegeta and Gotenks, but SS3 Gotenks also would have been fodderized by the likes of Ultimate Gohan, Buutenks, Buuhan and Vegito who are all still well below the BoG Super Saiyan God.

he "learned from the experience" and "made that power his own" in which he had regular ki instead of God Ki after he dropped out of SSG. He literally just got a giant power boost from it and that is it. He didn't have the "divine power" since he didn't have God Ki and it was never indicated to be temporary. A power boost that made his SSJ=SSG. He still had regular ki and he had the normal transformations so there was never any "godly base" where he had God Ki in DBS. Vegeta duplicated this power boost when he trained with Whis for 6 months and became on par with Goku after his "god boost."

Right. We see Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta to use "god ki" on their own for the first time during one of the training episodes on Beerus' planet. I forget the number exactly but that's the same episode where we get the first hint of SSB.

[PFM18]

Right. We see Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta to use "god ki" on their own for the first time during one of the training episodes on Beerus' planet. I forget the number exactly but that's the same episode where we get the first hint of SSB.

Thank you lol. I 100% agree with everything you said.

Because....wait for it....that's the first time they learn to use God Ki! and SSB is the result of SSJ+God Ki! No godly base ever existed and DBS did not retcon itself with this stuff. People make the scaling in DBS WAYYY more confusing than it has to be.

[Mister_Popo]

at the end of BOG they emphasized he has lost the transformation of SSJG but he still had kept the divine power (temporarily) with Beerus.

he "learned from the experience" and "made that power his own" in which he had regular ki instead of God Ki after he dropped out of SSG. He literally just got a giant power boost from it and that is it. He didn't have the "divine power" since he didn't have God Ki and it was never indicated to be temporary. A power boost that made his SSJ=SSG. He still had regular ki and he had the normal transformations so there was never any "godly base" where he had God Ki in DBS. Vegeta duplicated this power boost when he trained with Whis for 6 months and became on par with Goku after his "god boost."

I think he was able to keep (some of) the power inside of him during fighting with Beerus temporarily.
Because he got accustomated to the power. This along with breaking his limits.

It's not entirely clear how much of the power he kept. But he had to do Whis training as well te become stronger and experience God-Ki.
So i don't think everything he gained at the end of BOG became standard at the beginning of the ROF-arc. He had to train with Whis first.

[Mister_Popo]

How do you guys headcanon the fact Saiyan Beyond God does seem to have some features of Godly Ki, the ability to rise battle power without leakage, the abilitiy to sense other Godly-Ki ...
But still the other mortals were not able to sense Goku in base during ROF?

I think Red and Saiyan Beyond God are basically the same. in the red form however Goku really uses Godly Ki, as other mortals cannot detect his strenght. With Saiyan Beyond God this still is the case. But that doesn't mean the level of powerboost or control should or would be different.

True form Freeza is at SSJG-level during TOP, whilst in ROF he is at Saiyan Beyond-level, which made me believe they adapted the power scaling that way. Or one mightly simply headcanon it as 'through extented training Saiyan Beyond God' has became 'Super Saiyan God'.

[Marlowe89]

I feel like this is quickly devolving into the same countless debates and points already made/addressed within the strength discussion thread.

Whis says that he never told Goku and Vegeta that they couldn't transform during his training. They elected not to because his training was to help them see the "bigger picture."

To be fair, Dokkan Battle follows the movie's continuity and includes a similar subplot. Whis trains Goku to become stronger without transforming, Goku eventually reaches the level of Super Saiyan God on his own, then Whis tells him to transform after his training objective is complete; unlocking "the Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Whis shortens this term to SSGSS.

I might have been inclined to agree with the opposition if Goku's description of Blue wasn't the same as the film's, but it is, and Vegeta himself echoes the same statement in the Copy Vegeta arc. If not a retcon, it would certainly have to represent a scripting oversight of some kind.

[PFM18]

I feel like this is quickly devolving into the same countless debates and points already made/addressed within the strength discussion thread.

I feel like you are quickly becoming very condescending towards other people in this discussion like in countless other threads.

How do you guys headcanon the fact Saiyan Beyond God does seem to have some features of Godly Ki, the ability to rise battle power without leakage, the abilitiy to sense other Godly-Ki ...

Being able to sense God Ki is entirely independent of what form Goku and Vegeta are using.

True form Freeza is at SSJG-level during TOP, whilst in ROF he is at Saiyan Beyond-level, which made me believe they adapted the power scaling that way. Or one mightly simply headcanon it as 'through extented training Saiyan Beyond God' has became 'Super Saiyan God'.

Since Freeza conceded that Dyspo was faster than him, and then went on to say that his movements are linear and predictable, I think the underlying premise is that Freeza is able to close the gap between them because of Dyspo's predictable movements. Also, Dyspo has disproportionately high speed compared to his strength so he doesn't do much damage to Freeza when he does hit him. It doesn't make a ton of sense, but I think that is the way that the scene is portrayed.

I think that scene of Freeza vs Dyspo was just handled poorly. It is a shame because it causes a lot of confusion but the scaling still holds without "Saiyan Beyond God"

I might have been inclined to agree with the opposition if Goku's description of Blue wasn't the same as the film's, but it is, and Vegeta himself echoes the same statement in the Copy Vegeta arc. If not a retcon, it would certainly have to represent a scripting oversight of some kind.

This is simply a result of being able to use God Ki in base. Goku "drops out" of SSG and people are able to sense him since he is using regular Ki. In the movie, Goku can just use God Ki in base and goes SSJ and that's SSB. In the DBS anime he just uses God Ki with Super Saiyan hence the phrasing of "Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" or whatever the exact verbatim was. Where the SSG portion boils down to just meaning using God Ki.

[Koitsukai]

To make sense to it, I like to believe it was a temporary thing

[Mister_Popo]

Right. We see Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta to use "god ki" on their own for the first time during one of the training episodes on Beerus' planet. I forget the number exactly but that's the same episode where we get the first hint of SSB.

Thank you lol. I 100% agree with everything you said.

Because....wait for it....that's the first time they learn to use God Ki! and SSB is the result of SSJ+God Ki! No godly base ever existed and DBS did not retcon itself with this stuff. People make the scaling in DBS WAYYY more confusing than it has to be.

This is headcanon for my part ...But i always had trouble accepting Goku didn't use any God-Ki when he had already lost the form, for instance during that last beam struggle with Beerus.
It would just be unbelievable he could simply power-up to that level, without any additional training. One of the features of God-Ki howerver is to to keep battle power inside without leakage, when one powers up.
So he could have used God-Ki for the first time on his own there, alhough very shortly.

We could also consider the shorter fight with Beerus as the firt stage in divine training. Goku might have adjusted to the God-Ki he got through the transformation + through the experience of fighting a true diety, to keep the power inside. The short usage of God-Ki at the end of BOG was defintely temporarily, as he had to learn it with Whis. Longer training with another deity (Whis) granted him the abilitiy indefinetely.

[PFM18]

To make sense to it, I like to believe it was a temporary thing

You believe what was a temporary thing?