DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:00 am

Gonna chuck my two cents in on the matter.

I’m somebody who see it as Black not turning SSJ anymore once he unlocks SSJR. This is my first real down of this so right now I have no idea why it’s done this way, but hopefully at the end of this message i’ll work it out a little more than my initial feeling. :lol:

Right, considering both the anime and manga have Black with the super duper base form, the almighty base Black is probably a Toriyama thing. Toriyama also wanted Black to have SSJ, and Rose. So basically if I tried to link these together I would just say that at one point anime Black was capable of becoming a regular SSJ too, but at some stage it was replaced with Rose once he was strong enough. In the manga it seems that we watch this progression, albeit a little sloppily as he’s already surpassed SSJB, forget about SSJG, when he becomes Rose. Even if the argument is made that Vegeta in his fresh Blue form was equal to Black, Black still must be stronger than RoF Blue, so it will seem sloppy no matter how it’s flipped.
Then there’s the link with Toriyama saying that Merged Zamasu is weaker than two SSJBs. So to combine all of these we know that Rose can’t be a multiplier at the magnitude of Blue, and instead it’s just a level that is achieved when a saiyan finds a way of surpassing ‘SSJG power’.

The manga seems to do this with Goku by having SSJG stay around, and keeping his base levels low (I dunno about Vegeta, that weird SSJ2 is something, but I’m not sure how that fits exactly yet). Black on the other hand has a super duper base, and just SSJ, or maybe he can transform into the other forms but his power is much more similar to base Goku from BoG (movie) post SSJG absorption. So his SSJ form isn’t a drastic increase at all like Goku’s SSJ wasn’t much different against Beerus compared to his base, so his SSJ2 and 3 forms would yield very little increase, and the trade off at that stage wouldn’t be worth it (as Toriyama stated in a BoG interview about them sapping strength, and Goku realised that SSJ is the right way of doing things). Then in RoF (movie) it seemed that Goku couldn’t become a regular SSJ anymore as he had that absurdly powerful base. The supplementary material, and the movie implied SSJ was a thing of the past for him.
Right, my point is that Black basically fits in line with what the movies had shown for Goku. Then there’s manga Goku, he always uses transformations as a means of getting stronger, the manga clearly never made Goku’s other forms quite as stupidly powerful as they had gotten in the movies (or the anime), this also explains Goku’s fight with Trunks, and doesn’t inflate the power scale too much in the Uni 6 tourney either.

It’s might seem like a strange way of looking at it, but for some reason Manga Base Black does seem to be more like movie BoG Goku. He doesn’t go SSJ2/3, there can be a good case made that his SSJ form isn’t the usual 50x multiplier, and later he hits RoF Goku level (this is the stage I have Anime Base Black at, not in terms of power, but his evolution) and he’s what happens a saiyan with the power of SSJG becomes a SSJ. It seems like Toriyamas second bite at the cherry for what he had originally envisioned with Goku’s strong base, SSJ being replaced by Blue, and 2-3 not being used anymore (obviously pre Blue debut, but his BoG interview did mention that Goku probably won’t use 2-3 anymore).

So yeah, this basically became a way of looking at what Black is as a whole, in both mediums.

P.S this might be a little sloppy, but I’m operating on little sleep. :lol:

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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:05 am

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Can we agree to disagree? If you recognize that there is a valid explanation to Black's form, then I will recognize that Toyotaro could have explained things better.
I don't have an issue with you having your own interpretation. That's fine. My issue is that you're saying people are misinterpreting the scene when they're just taking the statements and explanations the manga give them at face value without extrapolating anything else based on other scenes.
My issue is when people say, "Black should be hundreds of times stronger than SSB Vegeta." When I hear that I think, "Well he's not, so obviously you're missing something." I also think that my interpretations are literal enough so that they shouldn't be dismissed as headcanon. Finally, I think that my interpretation is what Toyotaro was going for, but there's no way to prove that, so you can ignore that statement if you want.

I'm glad we are finding some middle ground. :D
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:19 am

Bergamo wrote:"Well he's not, so obviously you're missing something."
That's not what you should be thinking, though. You're just dismissing criticism that way. This reads like "Well, you're wrong, because the thing you're criticizing is flawless." Cell shouldn't be able to regenerate from his head, yet he did it. I'm not gonna think "You're missing something since that shouldn't be able to happen, let me see if I can find something that excuses this." I think "Yep, Toriyama fucked that one up, I'm not gonna find excuses for him." When you have to reach in order to justify something, then it's more likely that the author just fucked up. I'm not talking about this Black/Vegeta debacle specifically here, more in a general sense.

I hope I'm not coming off as aggressive just because I'm nitpicking what you're saying, it's just troubling.

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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:24 am

Doctor. wrote:
Bergamo wrote:"Well he's not, so obviously you're missing something."
That's not what you should be thinking, though. You're just dismissing criticism that way. This reads like "Well, you're wrong, because the thing you're criticizing is flawless." Cell shouldn't be able to regenerate from his head, yet he did it. I'm not gonna think "You're missing something, let me see if I can find something that excuses this." I think "Yep, Toriyama fucked that one up, I'm not gonna find excuses for him." When you have to reach in order to justify something, then it's more likely that the author just fucked up. I'm not talking about this Black/Vegeta debacle specifically here, more in a general sense.

I hope I'm not coming off as aggressive just because I'm nitpicking what you're saying, it's just troubling.
I don't think Toyotaro or the DBS manga are flawless. I think that this could have been explained better, but you can't say it's not explained at all. You're not saying that, but many people are. I guess I agree that the manga could be better, but I believe in the benefit of the doubt, and I think that Dragon Ball would have collapsed halfway through the Namek Saga if people nitpicked it the way they do Toyoraro's manga.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by prince212 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:59 am

Bergamo wrote: I don't think Toyotaro or the DBS manga are flawless. I think that this could have been explained better, but you can't say it's not explained at all. You're not saying that, but many people are. I guess I agree that the manga could be better, but I believe in the benefit of the doubt, and I think that Dragon Ball would have collapsed halfway through the Namek Saga if people nitpicked it the way they do Toyoraro's manga.
that’s it . Nitpickings dedicate more time than the own creators who make draw and story , most of the time they are inking.
Overall toyo is doing a decent work , and it’s enjoyable.
Goku Black transformations .. 0 problems for a random reader who acknowledges this is fiction with his own logic that sometimes can be contradictory to any previous logic , on purpose or by small mistakes or forgetting things .
Dragon ball was never ultra logic and dragon ball super continues the tradition, his authors doesn’t have that as a priority. I’m ok with it
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:45 am

What Sora Saiyan wrote is basically what I would have written, when I saw the topic starter. Goku-Black goes through the progression, that movie Goku did, making sense of his abnormally strong base.

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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Tectorman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:15 am

dbgtFO wrote:What Sora Saiyan wrote is basically what I would have written, when I saw the topic starter. Goku-Black goes through the progression, that movie Goku did, making sense of his abnormally strong base.
As in, he goes from Saiyan Beyond God to Super Saiyan Beyond God (actually, wasn't he sporting lightning, so wouldn't he really be Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God?), until he finally manages to upgrade that form to his unique version of SSB? Makes sense.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in on SSR being Black's equivalent of SSB and the stamina issues he should be exhibiting were that the case. If anything, I would say his last fight against Vegeta (where Vegeta was using the God/Blue Switch) shows that very well.

We know from an interview at the time (don't remember the name, but it was one of the guys working on Super), that Black was supposed to be the strongest non-fused character shown thus far, short of Beerus, Whis, and other straight-up deific characters at that level. So if we take that and apply it to the manga, since they're supposed to be the same story, we have SSR Black > SSB Vegeta. How, then, does Vegeta prevail by using a weaker form?

By outlasting SSR, by mitigating SSB's stamina issues by spending time in SSG while Black was staying in SSR, and therefore running his stamina into the ground faster. Vegeta accomplished two things when he was training in the HTC before that final battle: he got almost up to SSR Black's power, and he mastered the God/Blue Switch. This let him stay close enough at the beginning of the fight to not get wrecked by Black's superior power, and to end up stronger at the end because he kept more of SSB's power than Black did SSR's power.

To illustrate:
SSR Black (beginning): 100
SSB Vegeta (beginning): 90

SSR Black (middle): 90
SSB Vegeta (middle): 88

SSR Black (end): 70
SSB Vegeta (end): 84

And if you want an example of a similar fight, just look at Goku vs Frieza in RoF. SSB Goku started out weaker than Golden Frieza, but SSB's stamina issues aren't nearly as drastic as Frieza's Golden form, so Goku eventually ended up stronger. The only difference between the two is that Frieza had a larger initial strength advantage over Goku than did Black over Vegeta (so Goku was in trouble at one point while Vegeta never was); otherwise, those two fights are exact parallels.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by MatureGambino » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:48 am

How I always processed this was, Goku Black started off as extremely weak so he relied on Zenkai's to help him draw out Goku's powers little by little. Since SSj was the only form he unlocked, it along with his base became significantly stronger as he continued to tap into more and more of Goku's power. Once his SSj form surpassed the power threshold of SSj God, it mutated into SSj Rosé thus signifying that he had finally drawn out all of Goku's power.

Example:
SSjR Black = SSjB Goku => SSj Black (post Zenkai's) > SSjG Goku > Black (post Zenkai's) > SSj3 Goku > SSj2 Goku > SSj Goku > Goku > Black (initial)

Since the Goku who's body he stole was further into the future, he was stronger than the present Goku (not counting Perfected SSj Blue) and Vegeta. This is why Goku Black was able to defeat SSj Blue Vegeta during their first fight. After developing the God to Blue technique, Vegeta was able to overpower SSj Rosé Goku Black due to using SSj Blue's full power (Perfected SSj Blue) in short bursts. When SSj Rosé Goku Black and Future Zamasu became Fused Zamasu, their power equaled that of a Perfected SSj Blue due to Future Zamasu only being SSj tier thus their boost wasn't that strong in comparison to Vegetto's since both Goku and Vegeta were SSj Blue tier.

Example:
SSjB Vegetto (SSjB Goku + SSjB Vegeta) > Fused Zamasu (SSjR Black + Future Zamasu) = Perfected SSjB Goku = Vegeta's God-Blue technique > SSjR Black > SSjB Goku = SSjB Vegeta

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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:06 pm

Tectorman wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:What Sora Saiyan wrote is basically what I would have written, when I saw the topic starter. Goku-Black goes through the progression, that movie Goku did, making sense of his abnormally strong base.
As in, he goes from Saiyan Beyond God to Super Saiyan Beyond God (actually, wasn't he sporting lightning, so wouldn't he really be Super Saiyan 2 Beyond God?), until he finally manages to upgrade that form to his unique version of SSB? Makes sense.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in on SSR being Black's equivalent of SSB and the stamina issues he should be exhibiting were that the case. If anything, I would say his last fight against Vegeta (where Vegeta was using the God/Blue Switch) shows that very well.

We know from an interview at the time (don't remember the name, but it was one of the guys working on Super), that Black was supposed to be the strongest non-fused character shown thus far, short of Beerus, Whis, and other straight-up deific characters at that level. So if we take that and apply it to the manga, since they're supposed to be the same story, we have SSR Black > SSB Vegeta. How, then, does Vegeta prevail by using a weaker form?

By outlasting SSR, by mitigating SSB's stamina issues by spending time in SSG while Black was staying in SSR, and therefore running his stamina into the ground faster. Vegeta accomplished two things when he was training in the HTC before that final battle: he got almost up to SSR Black's power, and he mastered the God/Blue Switch. This let him stay close enough at the beginning of the fight to not get wrecked by Black's superior power, and to end up stronger at the end because he kept more of SSB's power than Black did SSR's power.

To illustrate:
SSR Black (beginning): 100
SSB Vegeta (beginning): 90

SSR Black (middle): 90
SSB Vegeta (middle): 88

SSR Black (end): 70
SSB Vegeta (end): 84

And if you want an example of a similar fight, just look at Goku vs Frieza in RoF. SSB Goku started out weaker than Golden Frieza, but SSB's stamina issues aren't nearly as drastic as Frieza's Golden form, so Goku eventually ended up stronger. The only difference between the two is that Frieza had a larger initial strength advantage over Goku than did Black over Vegeta (so Goku was in trouble at one point while Vegeta never was); otherwise, those two fights are exact parallels.
I'm pretty sure the statement of Black being the strongest un-fused character is anime only, because he's obviously weaker than MSSB Goku from the same arc. Besides, Black had been fighting Trunks before he fought Vegeta, so assuming SSR=SSB, he should already be fatigued at the start of the fight.
MatureGambino wrote:How I always processed this was, Goku Black started off as extremely weak so he relied on Zenkai's to help him draw out Goku's powers little by little. Since SSj was the only form he unlocked, it along with his base became significantly stronger as he continued to tap into more and more of Goku's power. Once his SSj form surpassed the power threshold of SSj God, it mutated into SSj Rosé thus signifying that he had finally drawn out all of Goku's power.

Example:
SSjR Black = SSjB Goku => SSj Black (post Zenkai's) > SSjG Goku > Black (post Zenkai's) > SSj3 Goku > SSj2 Goku > SSj Goku > Goku > Black (initial)

Since the Goku who's body he stole was further into the future, he was stronger than the present Goku (not counting Perfected SSj Blue) and Vegeta. This is why Goku Black was able to defeat SSj Blue Vegeta during their first fight. After developing the God to Blue technique, Vegeta was able to overpower SSj Rosé Goku Black due to using SSj Blue's full power (Perfected SSj Blue) in short bursts. When SSj Rosé Goku Black and Future Zamasu became Fused Zamasu, their power equaled that of a Perfected SSj Blue due to Future Zamasu only being SSj tier thus their boost wasn't that strong in comparison to Vegetto's since both Goku and Vegeta were SSj Blue tier.

Example:
SSjB Vegetto (SSjB Goku + SSjB Vegeta) > Fused Zamasu (SSjR Black + Future Zamasu) = Perfected SSjB Goku = Vegeta's God-Blue technique > SSjR Black > SSjB Goku = SSjB Vegeta
MSSB Goku is stronger than God-Blue Vegeta. God Blue Vegeta stores a lot of Blue's power, whereas MSSB stores 100%.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Tectorman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:20 pm

Bergamo wrote:I'm pretty sure the statement of Black being the strongest un-fused character is anime only, because he's obviously weaker than MSSB Goku from the same arc. Besides, Black had been fighting Trunks before he fought Vegeta, so assuming SSR=SSB, he should already be fatigued at the start of the fight.
Then why was Vegeta even bothering with the God/Blue Switch in the first place? If he's stronger than Black initially, then they would both face the same stamina issues and both power down at the same rate. And Vegeta would maintain his power advantage over Black the entire time. So why bother with the G/B Switch? Who is he saving his stamina for? Black and Zamasu are the only opponents there. Goku's handling Zamasu. Vegeta in this scenario already has Black outclassed. Merged Zamasu wasn't in the equation yet. So what was the purpose?

On the other hand, putting Black just above Vegeta to where he needs the Switch to outlast Black AND THEN gain the advantage allows this strategy to have a point.

Also, I'm fairly sure MSSB doesn't factor into the "Black > all unfused, nondeific characters" comparison. Anime Goku technically had SSBKKx10 available, but Black was still rated higher. So I figure the statement only applies to what the characters could relaibly use. That includes Vegeta's G/B Switch, but not Goku's MSSB (I think he had only figured out the idea and hadn't ever put it into practice) or his SSBKKx10 (which he put on the back burner after the U6 tournament and didn't even use during his beam struggle against MZ).
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:38 pm

Tectorman wrote:
Bergamo wrote:I'm pretty sure the statement of Black being the strongest un-fused character is anime only, because he's obviously weaker than MSSB Goku from the same arc. Besides, Black had been fighting Trunks before he fought Vegeta, so assuming SSR=SSB, he should already be fatigued at the start of the fight.
Then why was Vegeta even bothering with the God/Blue Switch in the first place? If he's stronger than Black initially, then they would both face the same stamina issues and both power down at the same rate. And Vegeta would maintain his power advantage over Black the entire time. So why bother with the G/B Switch? Who is he saving his stamina for? Black and Zamasu are the only opponents there. Goku's handling Zamasu. Vegeta in this scenario already has Black outclassed. Merged Zamasu wasn't in the equation yet. So what was the purpose?

On the other hand, putting Black just above Vegeta to where he needs the Switch to outlast Black AND THEN gain the advantage allows this strategy to have a point.

Also, I'm fairly sure MSSB doesn't factor into the "Black > all unfused, nondeific characters" comparison. Anime Goku technically had SSBKKx10 available, but Black was still rated higher. So I figure the statement only applies to what the characters could relaibly use. That includes Vegeta's G/B Switch, but not Goku's MSSB (I think he had only figured out the idea and hadn't ever put it into practice) or his SSBKKx10 (which he put on the back burner after the U6 tournament and didn't even use during his beam struggle against MZ).
Dismissing MSSB is stupid. The statement doesn't apply to the manga.
Vegeta uses God/Blue to draw out more power from SSB, where as Goku uses MSSB to draw out 100% power. Black is stronger than Vegeta using regular Blue, but weaker than him when he draws out more power. This is clearly portrayed in the manga.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:51 pm

I agree with a lot that's been stated by various members in this thread, so I thought I'd add my interpretation.

Up until yesterday, I'd believed Rosé and Blue were the same transformation, just with different souls, but Bergamo has successfully converted me, and I no longer believe that to quite be the case.

The way I see it, as others have mentioned, Black's powering up via recovering from near-death grants him power akin to Goku from the Battle of Gods and Revival of F films in that his base and SSJ1 forms are quite a bit stronger than a Saiyajin who's never experienced the SSJ Red form, particularly keeping in mind Toriyama's words about base and SSJ1 being preferential over SSJ2 and SSJ3, as well as Goku likely not using SSJ Red anymore. His base is already on its way to SSJ Red level and his SSJ1 is already on its way to SSJ Blue level, if that makes sense.

I look at this as Black's base and SSJ1 forms gradually unlocking the full extent of Goku's power from before his body was stolen, namely SSJ Red and SSJ Blue. I personally don't believe Goku is any stronger by the time his body was stolen than he was the year prior, since it doesn't seem Goku trained enough prior to the Tournament of Power, so I don't see this as a case of "Black is stronger because he has Goku's body from a year in the future."

I expect most, if not all, will disagree with my interpretation that, when Future Zamas helped Black recover so he could continue battling Vegeta, he'd recovered the full extent of Goku's SSJ Red and normal SSJ Blue power for his base and SSJ1 state (which Goku had already mastered using), whereas Vegeta was using normal SSJ Blue, causing his stamina to gradually drain.

With that in mind, I see Black's ascension to Rosé as a new level of power that Goku's body did not have prior to Zamas taking it. Black had been working to recover all of Goku's body's power, something that wouldn't grant him supplemental power Goku's body didn't already have.

(With that in mind, I suppose I believe SSJ1 became Rosé and that Black lost access to SSJ1.)

In terms of scaling, I suppose I'd numerically compare the forms this way:

SSJ Red Goku/Vegeta: 50
Base Black: 50
SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta: 100
SSJ1 Black: 100
SSJ Rosé Black: 150
SSJ Blue Vegeta when swapped from Red: 200
Perfected SSJB Goku: 200
Merged Zamas: 200

SSJ Blue Vegeta at least seemed relatively equal to SSJ1 Black in battle for a while before his stamina issue presumably kicked in, whereas Black's SSJ1 lacked any such problem. Once Black went Rosé, though, Vegeta seemed completely outmatched.

In essence, I agree with many statements many of you have made, but I don't think I quite agree 100% with any one interpretation I've read here. I'm quite scatterbrained at the moment, however, so I'm not doing a good job pulling it all together in my mind, much less articulating it on a screen.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:06 pm

Black Hawk wrote:I agree with a lot that's been stated by various members in this thread, so I thought I'd add my interpretation.

Up until yesterday, I'd believed Rosé and Blue were the same transformation, just with different souls, but Bergamo has successfully converted me, and I no longer believe that to quite be the case.

The way I see it, as others have mentioned, Black's powering up via recovering from near-death grants him power akin to Goku from the Battle of Gods and Revival of F films in that his base and SSJ1 forms are quite a bit stronger than a Saiyajin who's never experienced the SSJ Red form, particularly keeping in mind Toriyama's words about base and SSJ1 being preferential over SSJ2 and SSJ3, as well as Goku likely not using SSJ Red anymore. His base is already on its way to SSJ Red level and his SSJ1 is already on its way to SSJ Blue level, if that makes sense.

I look at this as Black's base and SSJ1 forms gradually unlocking the full extent of Goku's power from before his body was stolen, namely SSJ Red and SSJ Blue. I personally don't believe Goku is any stronger by the time his body was stolen than he was the year prior, since it doesn't seem Goku trained enough prior to the Tournament of Power, so I don't see this as a case of "Black is stronger because he has Goku's body from a year in the future."

I expect most, if not all, will disagree with my interpretation that, when Future Zamas helped Black recover so he could continue battling Vegeta, he'd recovered the full extent of Goku's SSJ Red and normal SSJ Blue power for his base and SSJ1 state (which Goku had already mastered using), whereas Vegeta was using normal SSJ Blue, causing his stamina to gradually drain.

With that in mind, I see Black's ascension to Rosé as a new level of power that Goku's body did not have prior to Zamas taking it. Black had been working to recover all of Goku's body's power, something that wouldn't grant him supplemental power Goku's body didn't already have.

(With that in mind, I suppose I believe SSJ1 became Rosé and that Black lost access to SSJ1.)

In terms of scaling, I suppose I'd numerically compare the forms this way:

SSJ Red Goku/Vegeta: 50
Base Black: 50
SSJ Blue Goku/Vegeta: 100
SSJ1 Black: 100
SSJ Rosé Black: 150
SSJ Blue Vegeta when swapped from Red: 200
Perfected SSJB Goku: 200
Merged Zamas: 200

SSJ Blue Vegeta at least seemed relatively equal to SSJ1 Black in battle for a while before his stamina issue presumably kicked in, whereas Black's SSJ1 lacked any such problem. Once Black went Rosé, though, Vegeta seemed completely outmatched.

In essence, I agree with many statements many of you have made, but I don't think I quite agree 100% with any one interpretation I've read here. I'm quite scatterbrained at the moment, however, so I'm not doing a good job pulling it all together in my mind, much less articulating it on a screen.
God-Blue Vegeta is not equal to MSSB Goku. God-Blue Vegeta releases a lot of power when he switches, but not 100%. I liken MSSB Goku's power to his kamehameha at the end of the u6 arc, except he is like that continuously.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Bergamo wrote:God-Blue Vegeta is not equal to MSSB Goku. God-Blue Vegeta releases a lot of power when he switches, but not 100%. I liken MSSB Goku's power to his kamehameha at the end of the u6 arc, except he is like that continuously.
May I know what leads you to believe Vegeta doesn't release 100% of SSJ Blue's power when he swaps? I'm not being sarcastic or uppity; I genuinely would like to know the reasoning behind your belief. You convinced me that SSJ Rosé isn't just SSJ Blue with a different soul, so I figure you may see something I'm not seeing on this topic as well.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Black Hawk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:God-Blue Vegeta is not equal to MSSB Goku. God-Blue Vegeta releases a lot of power when he switches, but not 100%. I liken MSSB Goku's power to his kamehameha at the end of the u6 arc, except he is like that continuously.
May I know what leads you to believe Vegeta doesn't release 100% of SSJ Blue's power when he swaps? I'm not being sarcastic or uppity; I genuinely would like to know the reasoning behind your belief. You convinced me that SSJ Rosé isn't just SSJ Blue with a different soul, so I figure you may see something I'm not seeing on this topic as well.
Goku said, "I'll release everything I've got in one shot." After that you can see his aura dissipate. When Vegeta switches to Blue, it's stated that he's, "storing the power of Blue." It doesn't make sense for him to store Blue while releasing it all. Vegeta also says that Goku is stronger than him in MSSB, and MSSB Goku fights Merged Zamas when he was shown to be stronger than anyone anticipated. Finally, they make the distinction that MSSB uses 100% power and that it is different from before.
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DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations

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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:17 pm

Bergamo wrote:Goku said, "I'll release everything I've got in one shot." After that you can see his aura dissipate. When Vegeta switches to Blue, it's stated that he's, "storing the power of Blue." It doesn't make sense for him to store Blue while releasing it all. Vegeta also says that Goku is stronger than him in MSSB, and MSSB Goku fights Merged Zamas when he was shown to be stronger than anyone anticipated. Finally, they make the distinction that MSSB uses 100% power and that it is different from before.
If I remember correctly, though, it was stated that SSJ Blue's full power only lasts the first few initial seconds (when not perfected like Goku fighting Merged Zamas, of course). Unless Vegeta was staying SSJ Blue for a number of seconds each time he swapped, wouldn't that mean Vegeta's SSJ Blue would stay at maximum power as well?

I do remember Vegeta essentially stating that Goku's method (sealing his ki instead of swapping) is more effective than his, but I don't quite recall him stating Goku's method is stronger or enables a higher use of SSJ Blue's power.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:30 pm

Black Hawk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Goku said, "I'll release everything I've got in one shot." After that you can see his aura dissipate. When Vegeta switches to Blue, it's stated that he's, "storing the power of Blue." It doesn't make sense for him to store Blue while releasing it all. Vegeta also says that Goku is stronger than him in MSSB, and MSSB Goku fights Merged Zamas when he was shown to be stronger than anyone anticipated. Finally, they make the distinction that MSSB uses 100% power and that it is different from before.
If I remember correctly, though, it was stated that SSJ Blue's full power only lasts the first few initial seconds (when not perfected like Goku fighting Merged Zamas, of course). Unless Vegeta was staying SSJ Blue for a number of seconds each time he swapped, wouldn't that mean Vegeta's SSJ Blue would stay at maximum power as well?

I do remember Vegeta essentially stating that Goku's method (sealing his ki instead of swapping) is more effective than his, but I don't quite recall him stating Goku's method is stronger or enables a higher use of SSJ Blue's power.
Vegeta says that Goku is stronger. Also, Ki leaking is a continuous process. It's not like if you use Ki for less than a second than it doesn't count. If you use Ki for half a second, then it uses half as much Ki than if you used it for a full second. Also, if you use 100% of your Ki at once, it doesn't matter if it's only for a split second, that's going to take a lot of energy. Compare this to Goku who uses 100% energy at all times with 0 leaking.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:31 am

Bergamo wrote:Vegeta says that Goku is stronger. Also, Ki leaking is a continuous process. It's not like if you use Ki for less than a second than it doesn't count. If you use Ki for half a second, then it uses half as much Ki than if you used it for a full second. Also, if you use 100% of your Ki at once, it doesn't matter if it's only for a split second, that's going to take a lot of energy. Compare this to Goku who uses 100% energy at all times with 0 leaking.
I think I know which page you're talking about, though Vegeta only states that Goku overcame SSJ Blue's weakness by sealing its overflowing ki within his body in order to continuously fight at 100%.

However, your point about ki constantly leaking when not sealed is a really good point, a point that I like. I think you've convinced me once again. In your opinion, though, is it enough of a leak to make Vegeta's usage of SSJ Blue significantly below 100% by the time his battle with Black ends?
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Bergamo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:37 am

Black Hawk wrote:
Bergamo wrote:Vegeta says that Goku is stronger. Also, Ki leaking is a continuous process. It's not like if you use Ki for less than a second than it doesn't count. If you use Ki for half a second, then it uses half as much Ki than if you used it for a full second. Also, if you use 100% of your Ki at once, it doesn't matter if it's only for a split second, that's going to take a lot of energy. Compare this to Goku who uses 100% energy at all times with 0 leaking.
I think I know which page you're talking about, though Vegeta only states that Goku overcame SSJ Blue's weakness by sealing its overflowing ki within his body in order to continuously fight at 100%.

However, your point about ki constantly leaking when not sealed is a really good point, a point that I like. I think you've convinced me once again. In your opinion, though, is it enough of a leak to make Vegeta's usage of SSJ Blue significantly below 100% by the time his battle with Black ends?
I don't think the leak puts him far below full strength, but he simply cannot go all out all the time, which is why it's inferior to MSSB. I think God-Blue is to Frieza's final form as MSSB is to Frieza's buff 100% form.
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Re: DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:46 am

Bergamo wrote:I don't think the leak puts him far below full strength, but he simply cannot go all out all the time, which is why it's inferior to MSSB. I think God-Blue is to Frieza's final form as MSSB is to Frieza's buff 100% form.
Do you think it would be accurate to say that SSJ Red/SSJ Blue switching and Perfected SSJ Blue are very close in power/abilities, Perfect SSJ Blue just barely beating it out due to sealing off its ki entirely to prevent any sort of loss? I imagine it would take a pretty lengthy battle to push the SSJ Red/SSJ Blue ability far enough to drain SSJ Blue substantially enough.
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