DBS Manga Explained: Goku Black's Transformations.

[Bergamo]

I've seen people mention this recently, and I've decided that I'd make a thread explaining what I think of it,

The Negative Perception
I've seen this too many times to count. "How is SS Goku Black as strong as SSB Vegeta in the manga." I think this fight gets so much hate because its really easy to hear about a Super Saiyan fighting a Super Saiyan Blue and dismiss it without actually looking into the context. There is also the misconception that if SS Black is this strong, then SSR Black should be hundreds of times stronger than the blue tier characters. I digress; it's time to explain.

The Explanation
[spoiler][/spoiler]
This quote from Goku Black tells the audience that his strength is increasing because his godly soul and his Saiyan body are merging. This is why SS Black is so strong. The corollary to this is that when the soul and body merge, he transforms into Super Saiyan Rose. SSR likely doesn't multiply his strength, as much as it signifies it.

In case you're not convinced, here's another from the chapter.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Note how he states his power before he transforms.

[Doctor.]

You're implying Black wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan again if he wanted to, because Super Saiyan "becomes" Rosé. While he doesn't go Super Saiyan again, true, it's much more apparent that Rosé is simply his equivalent of Blue and he'd be able to go SS again if he so chooses to.

[Bergamo]

You're implying Black wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan again if he wanted to, because Super Saiyan "becomes" Rosé. While he doesn't go Super Saiyan again, true, it's much more apparent that Rosé is simply his equivalent of Blue and he'd be able to go SS again if he so chooses to.

It could go either way whether or not he could still turn Super Saiyan. My guess is if he could, it would remain equal to SSB Vegeta while his Rosé form is notably stronger.

[Doctor.]

You're implying Black wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan again if he wanted to, because Super Saiyan "becomes" Rosé. While he doesn't go Super Saiyan again, true, it's much more apparent that Rosé is simply his equivalent of Blue and he'd be able to go SS again if he so chooses to.

It could go either way whether or not he could still turn Super Saiyan. My guess is if he could, it would remain equal to SSB Vegeta while his Rosé form is notably stronger.

If Rosé is stronger, then your theory doesn't work. If Rosé is merely a signifier of his strength as a Super Saiyan, then it wouldn't make much sense if the two forms have different power levels. The idea only works if there's no difference between Super Saiyan and Rosé (and in that case, why is Black even using Rosé if the former consumes less stamina?). And furthermore, if Rosé and Super Saiyan are so close together, why doesn't he just go 2 or 3, which would, logically, increase his strength level more? Either he can't unlock forms (in which case, he can't go Super Saiyan either after he gets Rosé, because it would be arbitrary otherwise), or he can but they're all at the same level of strength, which goes back to my earlier point of why just not using Super Saiyan since it's the one that consumes the less stamina. I'm sorry, but you're just extrapolating your own interpretation/headcanon from the manga and using it to explain a pretty poorly written fight.

Black's power kept increasing at an exponential rate due to his unique combination of Saiyan biology and Godly soul - that's what the series gives us. What you're saying is conjecture, but it's contradicted by what the manga says. Black doesn't have access to all of Goku's transformations and he just needs time and experience to adjust to the change and unlock his forms; he gets stronger by abusing the near-death power-up as Trunks states. Goku and Vegeta, however, have already hit their limit; this is most likely where Black's Godly soul comes into play, allowing him to achieve greater heights than Goku ever could. Rosé is Blue manifesting itself differently because of Black's Godly soul, as Zamasu himself states.

So, there's nothing to misunderstand or misinterpret here. Rosé is Blue but a different color because of Zamasu's soul. If Rosé is Blue, then it follows that it adheres by the same rules. If Black says he's just accessing Goku's transformations, then they are all Goku's transformations, they all follow the same rules as his, with the exception of Rosé's color( and Rosé's color is the only exception because that's the only one stated to be one). Meaning that Super Saiyan and Rosé are still multipliers, Black would hypothetically have access to SS2 and SS3 and the difference between Super Saiyan and Rosé/Blue is still the same since they scale with each-other as Black gets stronger.

And as I stated in the other thread, the problem isn't a Super Saiyan beating or drawing with a Super Saiyan Blue. The problem is the implication it has for Vegeta's strength later on in their rematch.

[Bergamo]

You're implying Black wouldn't be able to transform into Super Saiyan again if he wanted to, because Super Saiyan "becomes" Rosé. While he doesn't go Super Saiyan again, true, it's much more apparent that Rosé is simply his equivalent of Blue and he'd be able to go SS again if he so chooses to.

It could go either way whether or not he could still turn Super Saiyan. My guess is if he could, it would remain equal to SSB Vegeta while his Rosé form is notably stronger.

If Rosé is stronger, then your theory doesn't work. If Rosé is merely a signifier of his strength as a Super Saiyan, then it wouldn't make much sense if the two forms have different power levels. The idea only works if there's no difference between Super Saiyan and Rosé (and in that case, why is Black even using Rosé if the former consumes less stamina?). And furthermore, if Rosé and Super Saiyan are so close together, why doesn't he just go 2 or 3, which would, logically, increase his strength level more? Either he can't unlock forms (in which case, he can't go Super Saiyan either after he gets Rosé, because it would be arbitrary otherwise), or he can but they're all at the same level of strength, which goes back to my earlier point of why just not using Super Saiyan since it's the one that consumes the less stamina. I'm sorry, but you're just extrapolating your own interpretation/headcanon from the manga and using it to explain a pretty poorly written fight.

Black's power kept increasing at an exponential rate due to his unique combination of Saiyan biology and Godly soul - that's what the series gives us. What you're saying is conjecture, but it's contradicted by what the manga says. Black doesn't have access to all of Goku's transformations and he just needs time and experience to adjust to the change and unlock his forms; he gets stronger by abusing the near-death power-up as Trunks states. Goku and Vegeta, however, have already hit their limit; this is most likely where Black's Godly soul comes into play, allowing him to achieve greater heights than Goku ever could. Rosé is Blue manifesting itself differently because of Black's Godly soul, as Zamasu himself states.

So, there's nothing to misunderstand or misinterpret here. Rosé is Blue but a different color because of Zamasu's soul. If Rosé is Blue, then it follows that it adheres by the same rules. If Black says he's just accessing Goku's transformations, then they are all Goku's transformations, they all follow the same rules as his, with the exception of Rosé's color( and Rosé's color is the only exception because that's the only one stated to be one). Meaning that Super Saiyan and Rosé are still multipliers, Black would hypothetically have access to SS2 and SS3 and the difference between Super Saiyan and Rosé/Blue is still the same since they scale with each-other as Black gets stronger.

And as I stated in the other thread, the problem isn't a Super Saiyan beating or drawing with a Super Saiyan Blue. The problem is the implication it has for Vegeta's strength later on in their rematch.

1.I was just entertaining your hypothetical. I don't even think Black can transform into SS anymore. You can't say Black transforming into SS is a plot hole, because we don't know for sure if he can.
2. We don't know if Black can use SS2 and SS3 because they aren't shown and they are omitted from the design sheet. Goku's SS is not as strong as Black's, and the fact that Black even has Rosé means that you should throw out the assumption that he has the same forms as Goku.
3. Give me a statement where it says that Rosé is a multiplier, and show me an example of Rosé experiencing stamina loss.

[Doctor.]

1.I was just entertaining your hypothetical. I don't even think Black can transform into SS anymore. You can't say Black transforming into SS is a plot hole, because we don't know for sure if he can.

And I was entertaining your theory. But like I said above, it's just a theory because the story contradicts what you're saying.

2. We don't know if Black can use SS2 and SS3 because they aren't shown and they are omitted from the design sheet. Goku's SS is not as strong as Black's, and the fact that Black even has Rosé means that you should throw out the assumption that he has the same forms as Goku.

We can infer that he can. He has Goku's body, he says he's been trying to tap into Goku's transformations and he can turn Super Saiyan and Blue. He most likely can go Super Saiyan 2, 3 and God if he tried. It doesn't matter if he can or not, because that's not important to the point, what's important is:

Rosé is Blue. That's what Zamasu says: Rosé is Blue but it's a different color because Black/Zamasu is a deity. Denying this is denying what the story says.

3. Give me a statement where it says that Rosé is a multiplier.

Blue is a multiplier, so is Rosé; they're the same form. Even if Blue isn't a multiplier, the difference between the other SS forms and Blue is massive, so the difference between the other SS forms and Rosé is also massive.

[Bergamo]

1.I was just entertaining your hypothetical. I don't even think Black can transform into SS anymore. You can't say Black transforming into SS is a plot hole, because we don't know for sure if he can.

And I was entertaining your theory. But like I said above, it's just a theory because the story contradicts what you're saying.

2. We don't know if Black can use SS2 and SS3 because they aren't shown and they are omitted from the design sheet. Goku's SS is not as strong as Black's, and the fact that Black even has Rosé means that you should throw out the assumption that he has the same forms as Goku.

We can infer that he can. He has Goku's body, he says he's been trying to tap into Goku's transformation and he can turn Super Saiyan and Blue. He most likely can go Super Saiyan 2, 3 and God. It doesn't matter if he can or not, because that's not important to the point, what's important is:

Rosé is Blue. That's what Zamasu says: Rosé is Blue but it's a different color because Black/Zamasu is a deity. Denying this is denying what the story says.

3. Give me a statement where it says that Rosé is a multiplier.

Blue is a multiplier, so is Rosé; they're the same form. Even if Blue isn't a multiplier, the difference between the other SS forms and Blue is massive, so the difference between the other SS forms and Rosé is also massive.

If Rosé is Blue and Goku Black has the same body as Goku, then why aren't Goku and Black evenly matched. Rosé shows no signs of stamina loss, but it seems to be weaker in terms of raw strength.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Zamas specifies Super Saiyan God because he means that Rosé relative in power to Blue. Rosé is a rank above Blue in terms of power, but it works differently, hence why Black isn't exactly the same as Goku.

Why else would he mention SSG when Black doesn't even have that form?

[Doctor.]

If Rosé is Blue and Goku Black has the same body as Goku, then why aren't Goku and Black evenly matched.

Black has had over a year to train/abuse the near-death power-up. It's obvious why he's stronger than Goku in the same form. The story explains it to you that Goku and Vegeta have already hit their limit while Black, presumably because of his status as a deity, has not, leading him to get stronger by abusing his Saiyan biology. It doesn't negate the fact that his body is literally Goku's body.

Rosé shows no signs of stamina loss, but it seems to be weaker in terms of raw strength.

This is your opinion and your interpretation of the manga. I could easily argue that Toyotaro is just incompetent at drawing a good fight, but that doesn't help nobody. What "seems" doesn't matter, what matter is what the story says.

Zamas specifies Super Saiyan God because he means that Rosé relative in power to Blue. Rosé is a rank above Blue in terms of power, but it works differently, hence why Black isn't exactly the same as Goku.

Why else would he mention SSG when Black doesn't even have that form?

Zamasu specifies Super Saiyan God because when a Saiyan surpasses Super Saiyan God, he turns Super Saiyan Blue. When Black surpasses Super Saiyan God, he turns pink. That line literally tells you that they're both the same form outside of the hair color. He wouldn't say "instead of (turning) blue" if he was talking about Rosé being a step above Blue.

Black has access to that form and any other form Goku has, he just needs to unlock them like he did with Super Saiyan and Blue. And as we've seen from Vegeta, you don't need to have God before you can access Blue.

[Bergamo]

If Rosé is Blue and Goku Black has the same body as Goku, then why aren't Goku and Black evenly matched.

Black has had over a year to train/abuse the near-death power-up. It's obvious why he's stronger than Goku in the same form. The story explains it to you that Goku and Vegeta have already hit their limit while Black, presumably because of his status as a deity, has not, leading him to get stronger by abusing his Saiyan biology. It doesn't negate the fact that his body is literally Goku's body.

Rosé shows no signs of stamina loss, but it seems to be weaker in terms of raw strength.

This is your opinion and your interpretation of the manga. I could easily argue that Toyotaro is just incompetent at drawing a good fight, but that doesn't help nobody. What "seems" doesn't matter, what matter is what the story says.

Zamas specifies Super Saiyan God because he means that Rosé relative in power to Blue. Rosé is a rank above Blue in terms of power, but it works differently, hence why Black isn't exactly the same as Goku.

Why else would he mention SSG when Black doesn't even have that form?

Zamasu specifies Super Saiyan God because when a Saiyan surpasses Super Saiyan God, he turns Super Saiyan Blue. When Black surpasses Super Saiyan God, he turns pink. That line literally tells you that they're both the same form outside of the hair color. He wouldn't say "instead of (turning) blue" if he was talking about Rosé being a step above Blue.

Black has access to that form and any other form Goku has, he just needs to unlock them like he did with Super Saiyan and Blue. And as we've seen from Vegeta, you don't need to have God before you can access Blue.

You can't just say, "That's your opinion." Black never shows any signs of fatigue. Just because it doesn't support your theory doesn't mean Toyo is a hack. I've presented evidence that Rosé and Blue are different, and you have no counterargument.

[Doctor.]

You can't just say, "That's your opinion." Black never shows any signs of fatigue. Just because it doesn't support your theory doesn't mean Toyo is a hack. I've presented evidence that Rosé and Blue are different, and you have no counterargument.

It's your interpretation. What the story very overtly says is that Rosé is the same transformation as Blue, only with a different hair color due to the nature of Black's being; that's what I'm basing my argument on to say Toyotaro is incompetent, but my opinion of Toyotaro's incompetency doesn't matter to the facts here. I'm not presenting any theory, that's what you're doing based on vague and misinterpreted dialogue missing the full context.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can get. The counterargument is what Zamasu says, he proves your core argument wrong. Everything else you're saying is just conjecture, the story is clear in what it presents. Toyotaro is abundantly clear with explanations precisely to avoid the amount of headcanon the anime viewers have to make up, and you're still choosing to ignore what he says because he portrayed the form inconsistently here and there.

[Bergamo]

You can't just say, "That's your opinion." Black never shows any signs of fatigue. Just because it doesn't support your theory doesn't mean Toyo is a hack. I've presented evidence that Rosé and Blue are different, and you have no counterargument.

It's your interpretation. What the story very overtly says is that Rosé is the same transformation as Blue, only with a different hair color due to the nature of Black's being; that's what I'm basing my argument on to say Toyotaro is incompetent, but my opinion of Toyotaro's incompetency doesn't matter to the facts here. I'm not presenting any theory, that's what you're doing based on vague and misinterpreted dialogue missing the full context.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can get. The counterargument is what Zamasu says, he proves your core argument wrong. Everything else you're saying is just conjecture, the story is clear in what it presents. Toyotaro is abundantly clear with explanations precisely to avoid the amount of headcanon the anime viewers have to make up, and you're still choosing to ignore what he says because he portrayed the form inconsistently here and there.

Zamas refers to Blue as an outdated transformation. Why would he do that if it's exactly the same as his transformation?

[Doctor.]

Zamas refers to Blue as an outdated transformation. Why would he do that if it's exactly the same as his transformation?

He refers to God as an outdated transformation. Even if he referred to Blue as an outdated transformation, that's obviously his ego talking, otherwise he wouldn't say they're basically the same previously.

[Bergamo]

Zamas refers to Blue as an outdated transformation. Why would he do that if it's exactly the same as his transformation?

He refers to God as an outdated transformation. Even if he referred to Blue as an outdated transformation, that's obviously his ego talking, otherwise he wouldn't say they're basically the same previously.

It's obviously implied that
SSG->SSR or SSB
Black also says that he mastered his power. Why isn't her MSSB tier then?

[Doctor.]

It's obviously implied that
SSG->SSR or SSB

Right, so we're on the same page.

Black also says that he mastered his power. Why isn't her MSSB tier then?

We both know the answer to this. MSSB is characterized by keeping the power inside your body. There's no aura, this is even a point Vegeta makes when Merged Zamasu is powering-up. Black has an aura, so he hasn't mastered squat. Besides, when he says he "mastered" it, he means he mastered Son Goku's power (since that's what he's been trying to all this time), as in, he managed to access Goku's most powerful transformations (as he's been trying to do all this time).

[Bergamo]

It's obviously implied that
SSG->SSR or SSB

Right, so we're on the same page.

Black also says that he mastered his power. Why isn't her MSSB tier then?

We both know the answer to this. MSSB is characterized by keeping the power inside your body. There's no aura, this is even a point Vegeta makes when Merged Zamasu is powering-up. Black has an aura, so he hasn't mastered squat. Besides, when he says he "mastered" it, he means he mastered Son Goku's power (since that's what he's been trying to all this time), as in, he managed to access Goku's most powerful transformations (as he's been trying to do all this time).

I don't know how you can rationalize Black "training" to get stronger than Goku. Black spent most of his time trying to simply unlock Goku's power, so it's ridiculous to suggest he improved upon it.

Occam's razor. Blue and Rosé are different transformations therefore Blue and Rosé are different transformations.

[Doctor.]

I don't know how you can rationalize Black "training" to get stronger than Goku. Black spent most of his time trying to simply unlock Goku's power, so it's ridiculous to suggest he improved upon it.

Occam's razor. Blue and Rosé are different transformations therefore Blue and Rosé are different transformations.

I'm not rationalizing anything. Black says it himself that at first he was weak and couldn't even turn Super Saiyan. By abusing the near death power-up ability of the Saiyans, he was able to get stronger. Again, the story is clear.

Except the simplest explanation is that they're the same transformation with a different hair color, because that's literally what's stated. EVERYTHING else is conjecture and headcanon.

You're just ignoring what you don't like.

[Bergamo]

I don't know how you can rationalize Black "training" to get stronger than Goku. Black spent most of his time trying to simply unlock Goku's power, so it's ridiculous to suggest he improved upon it.

Occam's razor. Blue and Rosé are different transformations therefore Blue and Rosé are different transformations.

I'm not rationalizing anything. Black says it himself that at first he was weak and couldn't even turn Super Saiyan. By abusing the near death power-up ability of the Saiyans, he was able to get stronger. Again, the story is clear.

Except the simplest explanation is that they're the same transformation with a different hair color, because that's literally what's stated. EVERYTHING else is conjecture and headcanon.

You're just ignoring what you don't like.

All that proves is that Black went from a little bit of Goku's power to more of Goku's power. You're implying that Black somehow obtained more power than Goku himself had.

Also, Black is in a form that looks different, is obtained differently, and experiences stamina differently. It's different.

All Zamas' statement explicitly says is that both forms are stronger than SSG and have different hair color. Saying Zamas means that the mechanics of the form are the same is inference, same as my inferences.

[Doctor.]

You're implying that Black somehow obtained more power than Goku himself had.

I'm not implying anything. Black is stronger in his base than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Are you saying Black wasn't stronger than Goku in the same form?

Also, Black is in a form that looks different, is obtained differently, and experiences stamina differently. It's different.

How it looks is explained by Zamasu. How is it's obtained doesn't matter because it's not a new form, he's just continually gaining power to unlock Goku's already, pre-existing forms and one of them randomly happens to manifest itself through a different color. And the stamina issue is one inconsistency that I personally attribute to Toyotaro's incompetence but isn't enough to discredit Zamasu's explanation, since exposition triumphs interpretation.

All Zamas' statement explicitly says is that both forms are stronger than SSG and have different hair color. Saying Zamas means that the mechanics of the form are the same is inference, same as my inferences.

What Zamasu says is that INSTEAD of turning blue, Black turns pink because of his status as a deity. That means that if he was ANYONE ELSE, he would also turn Blue just like Goku and Vegeta. It's the same form but it has a different hair color because Zamasu is literally special for some reason. That is all.

He's using Goku's forms in Goku's body. Saying they function differently than Goku's forms unless explicitly told otherwise (like Rosé's hair color) is being obtuse and ridiculous all in order to justify some headcanon.

[Bergamo]

You're implying that Black somehow obtained more power than Goku himself had.

I'm not implying anything. Black is stronger in his base than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Are you saying Black wasn't stronger than Goku in the same form?

Also, Black is in a form that looks different, is obtained differently, and experiences stamina differently. It's different.

How it looks is explained by Zamasu. How is it's obtained doesn't matter because it's not a new form, he's just continually gaining power to unlock Goku's already, pre-existing forms and one of them randomly happens to manifest itself through a different color. And the stamina issue is one inconsistency that I personally attribute to Toyotaro's incompetence but isn't enough to discredit Zamasu's explanation, since exposition triumphs interpretation.

All Zamas' statement explicitly says is that both forms are stronger than SSG and have different hair color. Saying Zamas means that the mechanics of the form are the same is inference, same as my inferences.

What Zamasu says is that INSTEAD of turning blue, Black turns pink because of his status as a deity. That means that if he was ANYONE ELSE, he would also turn Blue just like Goku and Vegeta. It's the same form but it has a different hair color because Zamasu is literally special for some reason. That is all.

He's using Goku's forms in Goku's body. Saying they function differently than Goku's forms unless explicitly told otherwise (like Rosé's hair color) is being obtuse and ridiculous all in order to justify some headcanon.

You interpret Zamas' statement as saying these different forms are the same form.
You chose to believe that Black experiences bo stamina issues because Toyo is a bad writer.

I chose to believe differently.

Can we agree to disagree? If you recognize that there is a valid explanation to Black's form, then I will recognize that Toyotaro could have explained things better.

[Doctor.]

Can we agree to disagree? If you recognize that there is a valid explanation to Black's form, then I will recognize that Toyotaro could have explained things better.

I don't have an issue with you having your own interpretation. That's fine. My issue is that you're saying people are misinterpreting the scene when they're just taking the statements and explanations the manga give them at face value without extrapolating anything else based on other scenes.