Director for the finale of Super breaks down Jiren's character during the final stages of the TOP

[Master Xar]

1.) well yes of course, but that lies in things like Animation, music, direction. And on the viewers knowledge of both in-universe and out-of-universe logic to say “does this make sense to me?” Or to rephrase “Do I understand what the people behind this show are trying to speak to me with?”
You can say it is a fault or mess up of the team behind it, that meta-wise there is a screw-up, but that is just as much of an assumption or headcanon than simply trusting the writers and looking at the show for what it is, and what it is trying to say... you aren’t going to find yourself liking many shows if you always look at something through a “meta” lense or thinking there is some form of miscommunication.

I am seeing the show for what it is: it's a mess that was rushed out the door and created by people who never got the proper time to iron out the kinks and being planned out by a man who was terrible at planning back when he was a good writer. It's not viewing something as meta, it's the series itself failing to mask the behind the scenes problems by creating something to invest in.

2.) Yes, but again that is not a very fun way to look at a story if you are always going to look at something as “generic” or “cliché” when you can really look at it for how it fits in the universe it does, and the in-universe and out of universe job to convey all this. I see the “rage” being a consistent example of showing of a Saiyan’s potential with or without transformation sake. And given your prior comment you see potential in a different light. Potential is simply the showing the capacity to grow. Growth can be interpreted as the surpassing of one’s current limits. And with how Goku and Vegeta constantly get rage boosts and surpass their limits in Super, I’d say their potential is considerably higher than ever before in the series.

And with Freeza, my explanation is that while he can’t sense the power of others, he does have a good grasp on his own power and I feel it makes sense. Have you ever punched or simply haven’t hit something as hard as you could? Or if you feel it is simply as far as his current ki control goes we can still equate that because there really never has been a character in the series that hasn’t been aware of if of their own ki levels are at a certain level or not.

And I see the rage as a fundamental misunderstanding of how it worked in pre-established continuity and an example of Dragon Ball taking tropes from its inferior successors and playing it straight because that's expected of a shonen fighting series. I don't go into this stuff looking for the cliches, but when your series avoided the very same pitfalls its successors not only ran with but popularized, something has gone terribly wrong and it sticks out very much.

The Freeza thing is a wuxia trope, basic research will show it to you. Characters in wuxia constantly spout exact percentages of their powers which is fine, unless you're someone like Freeza's who's supposedly bad at controlling his. This isn't an interpretation: Freeza constantly says his ability to control his power is shit, hence why he creates forms to suppress it and then he starts shouting 73%, 62% with precise mathematical precision.

3.) Well that depends if you think it makes sense or Toppo to say this? If we are already feeling like it makes sense from what he said before. Let’s look into “Why did Toppo say this?” Let’s look at it from how Toppo’s personality is, he is very clearly an outspoken man that likes to pronounce his morals openly given how he speaks of his “Justice” a lot. Now we ask “why does he feel the need to say this out loud currently?” Well he said it when grouped up with Dyspo and Jiren to also express his opinion on what they should do as a strategy from here on out. He as a teammate is simply say “guys these people have no moral standards, there is no justice, if we are going to win and survive we have to be as justiceless as them...” which not only adds to the theme of “survival” in the tournament, but the betrayal of morals in the face of conflict when he later fights Vegeta.

Okay, if Toppo is already on the "fuck justice" bandwagon, why do we then make a big deal out of his sacrificing his morals later on? Why isn't he already going GoD to become as ruthless as the enemies he perceives around him? Like a lot of Super writing, it feels I need to engineer arbitrary explanations to justify a bad show and I am not doing that. The rest of the DB fandom bends over backwards for it enough without my assistance.

5.) well that feel goes into the limitations of animation and what the people of this show can convey. Art takes times, and as opposed to a seasonal anime, this is a weekly show. And as far as what the team can work with here does the show still speak clearly to you even with it’s limitations? That’s why I made my thread on Minus that “can the manga still speak to me or do I personally get anything out of it even with it being a 15 page story?”

Yes the fights do feel isolated at least from the beginning to give fights some form of flow and consistency within it’s chaos with the episodes or show the important fights. But the reason it feels so is because there is not as much things in the background to animated or convey that multiple fights are happening. The animation team was pretty smart with how they used the background explosions at the beginning of the tournament to convey the chaos, but as the fights get less and less, so does the background animation and things happening.

As far as showing the transition of characters fighting the other, why does the show really need to? I can already guess that they somehow interrupted the fight from the last episode and I can guess that. As well as to say that there is “flow” here that’s mainly the point that there is no consistent flow and that portray chaos so well. Will this fight continue in the next episode? Or will it be interrupted for another fight? Who the hell knows and I personally loved that about the arc since this is a battle royals after all.

I'm aware of the animation limitations and no, I do not think the show conveys the chaos. Constantly it feels as though fights happen in isolated spaces where nothing random or crazy happens, there's no unexpected interruptions from someone on the sidelines getting in on it, it feels like everyone is neatly arranged into their own little bubbles and nothing of worth happens outside it.

As for the interrupting thing, once again, you're willing to go makes guesses and assumptions and I'm not. I don't care enough to make headcanons and explanations for why people randomly fight other people between episodes, that's the job of the writers, not me. You say it adds to the theme of chaos but I don't, that feels like an arbitrary cop out to excuse aforementioned production problems where writers can't be bothered to keep track of who's doing what at a given moment.

1.) and that is a culmination of your opinions from what we know and what we don’t know and multiple assumptions. Not of what the show is in reality.
A.) Yes it is a rushed show as far as scheduling goes, but this is assuming the writers aren’t at least trying here, they want to create a good show just as much as the next one, be that through money or passion is up to you.
B.) even with this opinion this assuming that Toriyama hasn’t gotten better with his planning, in fact the evidence in recent years has shown he has planned out far more if not better than we can assume the method behind his planning 20 years ago anyway.

It’s as I said earlier, you don’t trust the team behind the show or believe that they are trying to tell you anything, you are seeing them as these people are incompetent and cannot tell me a story at ALL rather than look at the story for what it is and what it already is trying to tell you. The team behind this show aren’t all these incompetent idiots or that they don’t give a shit about the show, that’s being both unfair to them AND the show dude.

2.) Yes, but that is still an assumption here man, you’re seeing it as if they are just ripping off or copying other “lesser” shows (if you can even fairly call them that) and not just looking back at the material they do have in their own work, and assume that they somehow misunderstood it just because it’s a change.

3.) Ah that’s fairly informative thank you. But let’s just go with this here that we can gather from what the show is showing us. Yes Freeza is listing his percentages, but let’s look at some evidence, Dragonball in the first arc establishes that a blast can surpass the initial level of the user (two equal fighters? One can kill or one-shot the other with a charged up blast)

when Goku goes Kaioken x20 and blasts Freeza. What are the established power levels here? Goku is at 3,000,000 as a base power-up, Frieza at full power is at 120,000,000 in the Daizenshuu, and any percentage here. (1% being 1,200,000) (50% being 60,000,000)

Now let’s look at the facts here from above. Goku in Kaioken x20 (60,000,000) blasts Freeza with LOT of energy, now from what he can put in his Kamehameha beforehand in the Saiyan Saga (416 base, 900+ Kamehameha) lets assume for lowball that the Kamehameha is just (70,000,000) now Freeza almost completely blocks it, it hardly even scratches him aside from his hand.

Then there is Goku’s Spirit Bomb, which fails to kill Freeza, it is fair to assume either Goku miscalculated, or that Freeza’s wildly inconsistent power saved him.

Freeza’s power is either inconsistent (not to say it’s bad writing but still) or that he is wrong. Either/or, with Occam’s Razor we can just assume that in general Freeza’s stated power is not adhered to. That explain it?

4.) Well yes. Why? What do his actions say about him and his character? It’s as I said earlier. Toppo didn’t completely believe in what he was saying just yet... this serves to show that he has turmoil and from what he says in the change to his GoD form, that he is coming to an ultimate decision on if he can or cannot win this tournament with his Justice and moral standards intact.

Yes again you have to infer and guess what a story is trying to show and tell you, storytelling is an art form, with the right tools it all comes down to conveyance as long as you have a structure and understanding of how storytelling works in general, you have to try to understand what a creator is trying to convey through what happens or doesn’t happen in the story. If you don’t try to do that you’re going to find yourself hating a lot of stories man...

5.) Well that comes in chaos that anywhere in the middle there is going to be a focus . In the battle royale there are rivalries and characters who actively hunt certain characters. U7 are a big target due to Goku’s actions before and during the exhibition tournament and the context surrounding them. Hell I can understand what had happened in the first episode very well. U9 were actively on the hunt for Goku. They made a Beeline for him the second the tournament started, not to mention with Bergamo being the leader, he has an active grudge against Goku from the exhibition match.

In a rumble or large group brawl it’s almost never a grouped up fight of everyone just randomly hitting each other in it’s entirety . There are rivalry’s, grudges, people out for hunting the person who last hit them and they fight for a bit, people who pick off weaker or more damaged fighters not to mention the size of the ring, the abilities of the characters to hide and fight while sectioned off, etc.

There are established rules of strength and strategy before the tournament and rivalries. These are also highly skilled fighters or in some cases legendary fighters, not unprofessional idiots. All of them are going to have their own ideas or ways to fight just like how we see in U7. They aren’t just going to go blindly swinging into the mist unless they are stupid enough to do so. (U9 or U10)

In every bit of chaos there is some form of order.

[Dylanrockin]

I just thought I'd chime in and add in my two-cents. I think this version of Jiren is the best yet:

*flame shield up*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yd7LgQ ... _polymer=1

Just thought I'd help lighten the mood *casually walks out*

[PFM18]

For the most part this was clear during the show itself but there's some really interesting stuff in there that I didn't consider.

Just another reason this is the greatest fight in the franchise by far

[Master Xar]

I just thought I'd chime in and add in my two-cents. I think this version of Jiren is the best yet:

*flame shield up*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yd7LgQ ... _polymer=1

Just thought I'd help lighten the mood *casually walks out*

Ah I always loved that joke.

But really don’t misunderstand here. I’m simply offering ekrolo my perspective and interpretation of some of the criticisms he has with it. He is a fan of Dragonball just like me, so I offer my insight on why I like the TOP and hopefully he can walk away with a new appreciation for the arc, he can be free to disagree of course, but it’s always fun for me to give some new perspectives on Dragonball even if I can get a bit too emotional about it like my Dragon Ball Minus thread.

He seems like a cool dude, he doesn’t shove his opinion in anybody’s face or is being rude about anything I seen his videos and even if he doesn’t trust the staff behind the show he isn’t rude, he doesn’t insult Toriyama or the staff as far as I’ve seen he just thinks Toriyama has lost his flare in his writing. I just hope to give him a new perspective on Dragonball and it’s way of storytelling y’know?

[ekrolo2]

1.) and that is a culmination of your opinions from what we know and what we don’t know and multiple assumptions. Not of what the show is in reality.
A.) Yes it is a rushed show as far as scheduling goes, but this is assuming the writers aren’t at least trying here, they want to create a good show just as much as the next one, be that through money or passion is up to you.
B.) even with this opinion this assuming that Toriyama hasn’t gotten better with his planning, in fact the evidence in recent years has shown he has planned out far more if not better than we can assume the method behind his planning 20 years ago anyway.

It’s as I said earlier, you don’t trust the team behind the show or believe that they are trying to tell you anything, you are seeing them as these people are incompetent and cannot tell me a story at ALL rather than look at the story for what it is and what it already is trying to tell you. The team behind this show aren’t all these incompetent idiots or that they don’t give a shit about the show, that’s being both unfair to them AND the show dude.

I don't think there's anyone who's not trying involved in it, I think everyone is to some extent. Probably the only guy who has the leeway to not really care is Toriyama but even as past his prime as he is, I don't really get the sense he's doing this to cash in. If Toriyama didn't want to be involved, he'd probably just leave or refuse to do any more work as he refused Shueisha about making another DB thing around 08 which got Kai made.

That being said, trying isn't enough, there has to be something delivered even in-spite of the production issues, that excuse only goes so far. When the shows worts are all I'm seeing and whatever interpretations are meant to be made on the subject come off as excuses to justify the faults, it paints a really bad picture of everyone involved which I personally cannot look past.

2.) Yes, but that is still an assumption here man, you’re seeing it as if they are just ripping off or copying other “lesser” shows (if you can even fairly call them that) and not just looking back at the material they do have in their own work, and assume that they somehow misunderstood it just because it’s a change.

TBH, I don't think there is anything being said or if there is, it's not being conveyed well. See, when Toriyama made it a point to criticize how lashing out in anger can make things worse, he conveyed it well as seen by when Vegeta attacks Super Perfect Cell. Vegeta doesn't miraculously start beating on him for a short amount of time which is what lots of follow-up Shonen do and what Super would do if it happened today, Vegeta has his "big moment" and not only does it fail, it costs Gohan half his power and generally makes things a thousand times worse.

Super? It does the generic Shonen thing, instead of having Goku's power in Blue & UI decrease due to his anger going against the primary function of the forms or have him get beaten down for it immediately vs Black & Jiren, he powers up because his nakama got hurt and he's mad then proceeds to stomp the opposition. That's why it comes off as a genre convention played straight and not a thematic point for me.

3.) Ah that’s fairly informative thank you. But let’s just go with this here that we can gather from what the show is showing us. Yes Freeza is listing his percentages, but let’s look at some evidence, Dragonball in the first arc establishes that a blast can surpass the initial level of the user (two equal fighters? One can kill or one-shot the other with a charged up blast)

when Goku goes Kaioken x20 and blasts Freeza. What are the established power levels here? Goku is at 3,000,000 as a base power-up, Frieza at full power is at 120,000,000 in the Daizenshuu, and any percentage here. (1% being 1,200,000) (50% being 60,000,000)

Now let’s look at the facts here from above. Goku in Kaioken x20 (60,000,000) blasts Freeza with LOT of energy, now from what he can put in his Kamehameha beforehand in the Saiyan Saga (416 base, 900+ Kamehameha) lets assume for lowball that the Kamehameha is just (70,000,000) now Freeza almost completely blocks it, it hardly even scratches him aside from his hand.

Then there is Goku’s Spirit Bomb, which fails to kill Freeza, it is fair to assume either Goku miscalculated, or that Freeza’s wildly inconsistent power saved him.

Freeza’s power is either inconsistent (not to say it’s bad writing but still) or that he is wrong. Either/or, with Occam’s Razor we can just assume that in general Freeza’s stated power is not adhered to. That explain it?

One thing you have to remember is that Goku states "He really is using just half his power!" after the KKX20 Kamehameha fails. This implies Freeza raised his power even higher than 60 million to counter it. That line doesn't really make any sense as a confirmation of Freeza having even more power in the tank if he hadn't gone past 60 million.

4.) Well yes. Why? What do his actions say about him and his character? It’s as I said earlier. Toppo didn’t completely believe in what he was saying just yet... this serves to show that he has turmoil and from what he says in the change to his GoD form, that he is coming to an ultimate decision on if he can or cannot win this tournament with his Justice and moral standards intact.

Yes again you have to infer and guess what a story is trying to show and tell you, storytelling is an art form, with the right tools it all comes down to conveyance as long as you have a structure and understanding of how storytelling works in general, you have to try to understand what a creator is trying to convey through what happens or doesn’t happen in the story. If you don’t try to do that you’re going to find yourself hating a lot of stories man...

I think the line would work for me better if it wasn't delivered in such, not flippant manner exactly but almost matter of factly as though him forsaking his justice is already a foregone conclusion he's come which makes it feel at odds with the later big deal behind him choosing to forsake it for reals.

5.) Well that comes in chaos that anywhere in the middle there is going to be a focus . In the battle royale there are rivalries and characters who actively hunt certain characters. U7 are a big target due to Goku’s actions before and during the exhibition tournament and the context surrounding them. Hell I can understand what had happened in the first episode very well. U9 were actively on the hunt for Goku. They made a Beeline for him the second the tournament started, not to mention with Bergamo being the leader, he has an active grudge against Goku from the exhibition match.

In a rumble or large group brawl it’s almost never a grouped up fight of everyone just randomly hitting each other in it’s entirety . There are rivalry’s, grudges, people out for hunting the person who last hit them and they fight for a bit, people who pick off weaker or more damaged fighters not to mention the size of the ring, the abilities of the characters to hide and fight while sectioned off, etc.

There are established rules of strength and strategy before the tournament and rivalries. These are also highly skilled fighters or in some cases legendary fighters, not unprofessional idiots. All of them are going to have their own ideas or ways to fight just like how we see in U7. They aren’t just going to go blindly swinging into the mist unless they are stupid enough to do so. (U9 or U10)

In every bit of chaos there is some form of order.

Your last line is what I feel lacks in the presentation of the things you're talking about. If the messy behind the scenes stuff added to the sense of chaos in the tournament itself the way some video games during the early 3-D era did by finding clever tricks to make said limitations work in favor of the end product and not against it, I'd probably dig the arc more. However, the "chaos" we're talking about has no rhyme or reason, it never comes off as an organized mess of sorts where madness is happening but its all got a purpose to it underlying it.

[Master Xar]

1.) and that is a culmination of your opinions from what we know and what we don’t know and multiple assumptions. Not of what the show is in reality.
A.) Yes it is a rushed show as far as scheduling goes, but this is assuming the writers aren’t at least trying here, they want to create a good show just as much as the next one, be that through money or passion is up to you.
B.) even with this opinion this assuming that Toriyama hasn’t gotten better with his planning, in fact the evidence in recent years has shown he has planned out far more if not better than we can assume the method behind his planning 20 years ago anyway.

It’s as I said earlier, you don’t trust the team behind the show or believe that they are trying to tell you anything, you are seeing them as these people are incompetent and cannot tell me a story at ALL rather than look at the story for what it is and what it already is trying to tell you. The team behind this show aren’t all these incompetent idiots or that they don’t give a shit about the show, that’s being both unfair to them AND the show dude.

I don't think there's anyone who's not trying involved in it, I think everyone is to some extent. Probably the only guy who has the leeway to not really care is Toriyama but even as past his prime as he is, I don't really get the sense he's doing this to cash in. If Toriyama didn't want to be involved, he'd probably just leave or refuse to do any more work as he refused Shueisha about making another DB thing around 08 which got Kai made.

That being said, trying isn't enough, there has to be something delivered even in-spite of the production issues, that excuse only goes so far. When the shows worts are all I'm seeing and whatever interpretations are meant to be made on the subject come off as excuses to justify the faults, it paints a really bad picture of everyone involved which I personally cannot look past.

2.) Yes, but that is still an assumption here man, you’re seeing it as if they are just ripping off or copying other “lesser” shows (if you can even fairly call them that) and not just looking back at the material they do have in their own work, and assume that they somehow misunderstood it just because it’s a change.

TBH, I don't think there is anything being said or if there is, it's not being conveyed well. See, when Toriyama made it a point to criticize how lashing out in anger can make things worse, he conveyed it well as seen by when Vegeta attacks Super Perfect Cell. Vegeta doesn't miraculously start beating on him for a short amount of time which is what lots of follow-up Shonen do and what Super would do if it happened today, Vegeta has his "big moment" and not only does it fail, it costs Gohan half his power and generally makes things a thousand times worse.

Super? It does the generic Shonen thing, instead of having Goku's power in Blue & UI decrease due to his anger going against the primary function of the forms or have him get beaten down for it immediately vs Black & Jiren, he powers up because his nakama got hurt and he's mad then proceeds to stomp the opposition. That's why it comes off as a genre convention played straight and not a thematic point for me.

3.) Ah that’s fairly informative thank you. But let’s just go with this here that we can gather from what the show is showing us. Yes Freeza is listing his percentages, but let’s look at some evidence, Dragonball in the first arc establishes that a blast can surpass the initial level of the user (two equal fighters? One can kill or one-shot the other with a charged up blast)

when Goku goes Kaioken x20 and blasts Freeza. What are the established power levels here? Goku is at 3,000,000 as a base power-up, Frieza at full power is at 120,000,000 in the Daizenshuu, and any percentage here. (1% being 1,200,000) (50% being 60,000,000)

Now let’s look at the facts here from above. Goku in Kaioken x20 (60,000,000) blasts Freeza with LOT of energy, now from what he can put in his Kamehameha beforehand in the Saiyan Saga (416 base, 900+ Kamehameha) lets assume for lowball that the Kamehameha is just (70,000,000) now Freeza almost completely blocks it, it hardly even scratches him aside from his hand.

Then there is Goku’s Spirit Bomb, which fails to kill Freeza, it is fair to assume either Goku miscalculated, or that Freeza’s wildly inconsistent power saved him.

Freeza’s power is either inconsistent (not to say it’s bad writing but still) or that he is wrong. Either/or, with Occam’s Razor we can just assume that in general Freeza’s stated power is not adhered to. That explain it?

One thing you have to remember is that Goku states "He really is using just half his power!" after the KKX20 Kamehameha fails. This implies Freeza raised his power even higher than 60 million to counter it. That line doesn't really make any sense as a confirmation of Freeza having even more power in the tank if he hadn't gone past 60 million.

4.) Well yes. Why? What do his actions say about him and his character? It’s as I said earlier. Toppo didn’t completely believe in what he was saying just yet... this serves to show that he has turmoil and from what he says in the change to his GoD form, that he is coming to an ultimate decision on if he can or cannot win this tournament with his Justice and moral standards intact.

Yes again you have to infer and guess what a story is trying to show and tell you, storytelling is an art form, with the right tools it all comes down to conveyance as long as you have a structure and understanding of how storytelling works in general, you have to try to understand what a creator is trying to convey through what happens or doesn’t happen in the story. If you don’t try to do that you’re going to find yourself hating a lot of stories man...

I think the line would work for me better if it wasn't delivered in such, not flippant manner exactly but almost matter of factly as though him forsaking his justice is already a foregone conclusion he's come which makes it feel at odds with the later big deal behind him choosing to forsake it for reals.

5.) Well that comes in chaos that anywhere in the middle there is going to be a focus . In the battle royale there are rivalries and characters who actively hunt certain characters. U7 are a big target due to Goku’s actions before and during the exhibition tournament and the context surrounding them. Hell I can understand what had happened in the first episode very well. U9 were actively on the hunt for Goku. They made a Beeline for him the second the tournament started, not to mention with Bergamo being the leader, he has an active grudge against Goku from the exhibition match.

In a rumble or large group brawl it’s almost never a grouped up fight of everyone just randomly hitting each other in it’s entirety . There are rivalry’s, grudges, people out for hunting the person who last hit them and they fight for a bit, people who pick off weaker or more damaged fighters not to mention the size of the ring, the abilities of the characters to hide and fight while sectioned off, etc.

There are established rules of strength and strategy before the tournament and rivalries. These are also highly skilled fighters or in some cases legendary fighters, not unprofessional idiots. All of them are going to have their own ideas or ways to fight just like how we see in U7. They aren’t just going to go blindly swinging into the mist unless they are stupid enough to do so. (U9 or U10)

In every bit of chaos there is some form of order.

Your last line is what I feel lacks in the presentation of the things you're talking about. If the messy behind the scenes stuff added to the sense of chaos in the tournament itself the way some video games during the early 3-D era did by finding clever tricks to make said limitations work in favor of the end product and not against it, I'd probably dig the arc more. However, the "chaos" we're talking about has no rhyme or reason, it never comes off as an organized mess of sorts where madness is happening but its all got a purpose to it underlying it.

1.) well yes of course. Like I said every idea or concept can be conveyed through the things I listed (music, direction, animation, voice acting, symbolism, etc.)

The execution or production can always be made better or more clear. But can you understand it with the shows limitations is the answer. Which is why I never understood this idea in recent years with the internet and the rise in Mr. Plinket’s Prequel reviews came this idea or running idea that the one’s behind the show are some kind of enemy. The implying of an idea is definitely a sound criticism, but there is always the “maybe I’m just not understanding this?” Not to say that you are. But you always have to try and look at things from a new perspective or light “Can I work with what they are giving me here?”

It all depends on your standards for execution and understanding of the techniques and ways needed to convey that idea.

2.) Well again you have to rewatch the scene and look at the full context. You are looking at them simply getting beat up and think that it worked to Goku’s full benefit. Think about it from what we see happens to Goku after the beatings, the context of the situation beforehand, and how the rage worked against him.

A.) Black gets stronger the more you damage him, he has a far more enhanced version of the ability of the Saiyan ability to grow or get stronger during the fight, especially with how he grows from damage, he especially does so with Goku fighting or damaging him since he has Goku’s body a point exemplified when he was in his base form earlier in the arc. That being said Goku’s rage boost completely worked against him and backfired, Black just casually spears him and blows him up.

B.) Well remember what I said about UI? how emotions seem to lessen the time limit? Goku got angry for his friend’s sake and while it helped beat Jiren down quicker... he was already winning prior to the rage boost in the first place, hell Jiren was literally backed against a wall, and Goku was only getting stronger from UI and the saiyan ability to adapt anyway... he’d have gotten Jiren down quickly anyways and there would’ve been no struggle at the end in 131 likely as with Goku keeping his emotions in check I would assume that UI lasts longer he’d have finished Jiren off without any difficulties depending on how much his emotions drained his time limit.

See man? You can’t keep looking at things with “tropes and cliché” or comparing it to others stories or it ruins the story for you more.

3.) well I guess that’s fair, but let’s look at it like this. To some form or extent in Dragonball the characters getting beaten down or damaged lowers their power yeah? Well Goku took a pretty nasty beating before he used the Kaioken from “50%” Freeza, so let’s say he went down from 3,000,000 to around 2,000,000 or so not counting any possible increases from his Saiyan abilities. And that he uses Kaioken x20 here and goes from 2,000,000 to 40,000,000 and his Kamehameha at ~50,000,000

And we can look at how he words it. He says it like he wasn’t really sure beforehand and really only senses it now.

4.) Meh... For me personally it’s hard to understand inflection in more deep voiced characters like Toppo, but I can see your point if it came across that way, but really it sounds to me that Toppo almost always sounds like he is speaking matter of factly, or an air of him being confident about his morals and “Justice”

5.) Well there are some interesting techniques they do to convey it like the many background explosions like in the first 3 episodes (besides the Krillin and Android 18 episode, but let’s just assume they just let that one go),

And they used Kale’s destruction to give the ring a less “flat” look, to where all the jagged pieces of the ring provide an obscuring of the vision of the entire ring from the camera to where we can imagine or guess the fights are all happening behind all those broken pieces of the ring and it ALSO adds some sense of curiousness of “where are all the fighters located?” that some fighter is waiting or lurking around every corner of the broken ring waiting to attack like Frost and the U4 Fighters with Roshi... or is just busy fighting someone else like Hit vs Dyspo.

There are some good and unique techniques they use to convey chaos and disorder within their limitations here if you look back at it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Jiren was boring for the majority of the arc but those last episodes really made up for it and turned Jiren into a very likable character. I wish some of those developments happened earlier as fans wouldn't have had a negative image of him for as long as they did.

That's why I want see him again. Seems one of the points of the arc was "developing" Jiren, feels like he's been set up for something big.

[sintzu]

That's why I want see him again. Seems one of the points of the arc was "developing" Jiren, feels like he's been set up for something big.

Both him and Toppo developed through the arc and from what I remember the person who killed Jiren's family was never caught so that'd be a good way to send everyone to U11 for a reunion.

[ekrolo2]

1.) well yes of course. Like I said every idea or concept can be conveyed through the things I listed (music, direction, animation, voice acting, symbolism, etc.)

The execution or production can always be made better or more clear. But can you understand it with the shows limitations is the answer. Which is why I never understood this idea in recent years with the internet and the rise in Mr. Plinket’s Prequel reviews came this idea or running idea that the one’s behind the show are some kind of enemy. The implying of an idea is definitely a sound criticism, but there is always the “maybe I’m just not understanding this?” Not to say that you are. But you always have to try and look at things from a new perspective or light “Can I work with what they are giving me here?”

It all depends on your standards for execution and understanding of the techniques and ways needed to convey that idea.

Believe me, I'm the first one to point out the hypocrisy behind Red Letter Minutia's "the creator is the enemy" idea, particularly how hypocritical it often is. 5 years ago every pants shiting fuck stick with a Darth Vader plushier strapped to his dong wanted to burn Lucas an effigy because he made... what, 2 okay movies and one legitimately bad one, pronouncing said products as the worst things to ever happen in human history. Now, three guesses as to which morons are now calling Lucas a saint and asking him to come back. It's hardly one of the great mysteries of the present epoch.

2.) Well again you have to rewatch the scene and look at the full context. You are looking at them simply getting beat up and think that it worked to Goku’s full benefit. Think about it from what we see happens to Goku after the beatings, the context of the situation beforehand, and how the rage worked against him.

A.) Black gets stronger the more you damage him, he has a far more enhanced version of the ability of the Saiyan ability to grow or get stronger during the fight, especially with how he grows from damage, he especially does so with Goku fighting or damaging him since he has Goku’s body a point exemplified when he was in his base form earlier in the arc. That being said Goku’s rage boost completely worked against him and backfired, Black just casually spears him and blows him up.

B.) Well remember what I said about UI? how emotions seem to lessen the time limit? Goku got angry for his friend’s sake and while it helped beat Jiren down quicker... he was already winning prior to the rage boost in the first place, hell Jiren was literally backed against a wall, and Goku was only getting stronger from UI and the saiyan ability to adapt anyway... he’d have gotten Jiren down quickly anyways and there would’ve been no struggle at the end in 131 likely as with Goku keeping his emotions in check I would assume that UI lasts longer he’d have finished Jiren off without any difficulties depending on how much his emotions drained his time limit.

See man? You can’t keep looking at things with “tropes and cliché” or comparing it to others stories or it ruins the story for you more.

The Black thing is sort of off topic but really bugs me, I have no idea why his powers even work the way they do. If he had immortality which constantly regenerated him and gave him Zenkai, that'd be one thing but I have no clue as to why him being beaten on is fixing itself and giving him boosts. People throw the Zenkai card but Zenkai's only happen when you heal from near death, it's not something you just fart out at a moments notice. The manga tries to fix this by saying Future Zamasu heals him but then how did F. Trunks never encounter him on Earth before and how did Black apparently improve enough on his own there to attain SS1 then surpass that level in Base? Then there's the aforementioned fact that Goku never got rage boosts before, the whole scene really has no business happening. If it was Goku activating KK Blue in a fit of wanting to smash Black, it would've worked a LOT better imo.

I guess but I feel as though we should actually discuss rage lessening UI if it's meant to be a thing. The scene of Whis saying he didn't expect the toll to be that bad doesn't really come off as "Man, Goku fucked up by getting mad" but rather "Man, I did NOT think it would hurt him so badly". I don't really see any indication within the narrative itself or a desire to paint the rage moment as something that costs Goku his victory. It just comes off as a generic stamina problem happening at the worst possible time.

5.) Well there are some interesting techniques they do to convey it like the many background explosions like in the first 3 episodes (besides the Krillin and Android 18 episode, but let’s just assume they just let that one go),

And they used Kale’s destruction to give the ring a less “flat” look, to where all the jagged pieces of the ring provide an obscuring of the vision of the entire ring from the camera to where we can imagine or guess the fights are all happening behind all those broken pieces of the ring and it ALSO adds some sense of curiousness of “where are all the fighters located?” that some fighter is waiting or lurking around every corner of the broken ring waiting to attack like Frost and the U4 Fighters with Roshi... or is just busy fighting someone else like Hit vs Dyspo.

There are some good and unique techniques they use to convey chaos and disorder within their limitations here if you look back at it.

I think the solution to the problem at hand is fairly simple now that I think about it: have multiple POVs per episode. What I mean by this is, instead of having "The Krillin episode" or "The Roshi episode" jump around within an episode between multiple simultaneous events. Episode 118 where you've got Gohan & Piccolo cleaning up U6 while Goku, 17 and 18 take on U2. That'd greatly help the feeling of chaotic action occurring all over the place instead of everyone being frozen in carbonite the second the camera moves away from them.

[Doctor.]

5 years ago every pants shiting fuck stick with a Darth Vader plushier strapped to his dong wanted to burn Lucas an effigy because he made... what, 2 okay movies and one legitimately bad one

Okay, but which one's the bad one though? Because for my money it's definitely 2.

[ekrolo2]

5 years ago every pants shiting fuck stick with a Darth Vader plushier strapped to his dong wanted to burn Lucas an effigy because he made... what, 2 okay movies and one legitimately bad one

Okay, but which one's the bad one though? Because for my money it's definitely 2.

Bingo and your prize for guessing correctly is a plush sized Kylo "we swear we didn't rip off Kotor" Ren plushie dong strap on.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

This was pretty evident for me through the visual storytelling, which was well done. However, the taciturn and lonesome character for Jiren throughout the whole arc didn't work for me. I wish this characterization of Jiren that Ishitani so eloquently explained was alluded to throughout the whole arc, instead of being used in just the last two episodes. Would have added better mystique to his character.

The hushed up and isolated character worked for Hit, given he doesn't have to work with people on a regular basis to get his work done. In my eyes, Jiren was even more reticent than Hit, and was part of a team before the tournament. Thus not only did him saying less than Hit do little for his characterization, but the pariah-like personality of his made him come off as quite uncooperative several times during the tournament. I understand he is supposed to have a Batman-like backstory, but even Batman can be much more cooperative and communicative, not to mention more demonstrative of his emotions.

I respect Jiren's strength, but the execution of him being supremely withdrawn didn't make this appear to be one of Toriyama's greater ideas in my opinion.

[Master Xar]

1.) well yes of course. Like I said every idea or concept can be conveyed through the things I listed (music, direction, animation, voice acting, symbolism, etc.)

The execution or production can always be made better or more clear. But can you understand it with the shows limitations is the answer. Which is why I never understood this idea in recent years with the internet and the rise in Mr. Plinket’s Prequel reviews came this idea or running idea that the one’s behind the show are some kind of enemy. The implying of an idea is definitely a sound criticism, but there is always the “maybe I’m just not understanding this?” Not to say that you are. But you always have to try and look at things from a new perspective or light “Can I work with what they are giving me here?”

It all depends on your standards for execution and understanding of the techniques and ways needed to convey that idea.

Believe me, I'm the first one to point out the hypocrisy behind Red Letter Minutia's "the creator is the enemy" idea, particularly how hypocritical it often is. 5 years ago every pants shiting fuck stick with a Darth Vader plushier strapped to his dong wanted to burn Lucas an effigy because he made... what, 2 okay movies and one legitimately bad one, pronouncing said products as the worst things to ever happen in human history. Now, three guesses as to which morons are now calling Lucas a saint and asking him to come back. It's hardly one of the great mysteries of the present epoch.

2.) Well again you have to rewatch the scene and look at the full context. You are looking at them simply getting beat up and think that it worked to Goku’s full benefit. Think about it from what we see happens to Goku after the beatings, the context of the situation beforehand, and how the rage worked against him.

A.) Black gets stronger the more you damage him, he has a far more enhanced version of the ability of the Saiyan ability to grow or get stronger during the fight, especially with how he grows from damage, he especially does so with Goku fighting or damaging him since he has Goku’s body a point exemplified when he was in his base form earlier in the arc. That being said Goku’s rage boost completely worked against him and backfired, Black just casually spears him and blows him up.

B.) Well remember what I said about UI? how emotions seem to lessen the time limit? Goku got angry for his friend’s sake and while it helped beat Jiren down quicker... he was already winning prior to the rage boost in the first place, hell Jiren was literally backed against a wall, and Goku was only getting stronger from UI and the saiyan ability to adapt anyway... he’d have gotten Jiren down quickly anyways and there would’ve been no struggle at the end in 131 likely as with Goku keeping his emotions in check I would assume that UI lasts longer he’d have finished Jiren off without any difficulties depending on how much his emotions drained his time limit.

See man? You can’t keep looking at things with “tropes and cliché” or comparing it to others stories or it ruins the story for you more.

The Black thing is sort of off topic but really bugs me, I have no idea why his powers even work the way they do. If he had immortality which constantly regenerated him and gave him Zenkai, that'd be one thing but I have no clue as to why him being beaten on is fixing itself and giving him boosts. People throw the Zenkai card but Zenkai's only happen when you heal from near death, it's not something you just fart out at a moments notice. The manga tries to fix this by saying Future Zamasu heals him but then how did F. Trunks never encounter him on Earth before and how did Black apparently improve enough on his own there to attain SS1 then surpass that level in Base? Then there's the aforementioned fact that Goku never got rage boosts before, the whole scene really has no business happening. If it was Goku activating KK Blue in a fit of wanting to smash Black, it would've worked a LOT better imo.

I guess but I feel as though we should actually discuss rage lessening UI if it's meant to be a thing. The scene of Whis saying he didn't expect the toll to be that bad doesn't really come off as "Man, Goku fucked up by getting mad" but rather "Man, I did NOT think it would hurt him so badly". I don't really see any indication within the narrative itself or a desire to paint the rage moment as something that costs Goku his victory. It just comes off as a generic stamina problem happening at the worst possible time.

5.) Well there are some interesting techniques they do to convey it like the many background explosions like in the first 3 episodes (besides the Krillin and Android 18 episode, but let’s just assume they just let that one go),

And they used Kale’s destruction to give the ring a less “flat” look, to where all the jagged pieces of the ring provide an obscuring of the vision of the entire ring from the camera to where we can imagine or guess the fights are all happening behind all those broken pieces of the ring and it ALSO adds some sense of curiousness of “where are all the fighters located?” that some fighter is waiting or lurking around every corner of the broken ring waiting to attack like Frost and the U4 Fighters with Roshi... or is just busy fighting someone else like Hit vs Dyspo.

There are some good and unique techniques they use to convey chaos and disorder within their limitations here if you look back at it.

I think the solution to the problem at hand is fairly simple now that I think about it: have multiple POVs per episode. What I mean by this is, instead of having "The Krillin episode" or "The Roshi episode" jump around within an episode between multiple simultaneous events. Episode 118 where you've got Gohan & Piccolo cleaning up U6 while Goku, 17 and 18 take on U2. That'd greatly help the feeling of chaotic action occurring all over the place instead of everyone being frozen in carbonite the second the camera moves away from them.

1.) poor George Lucas, he did not deserve the harassment and bombardment he did in real life just because he decided to go in a different direction with his movies as far as the prequels, as well as the voice actors for Jar Jar Binks and Anakin. I personally liked them and could understand them (as I’m studying direction and craft in many works) and liked the talking scenes and even though I didn’t like certain things (midichlorians) and the over-explanation of things best left unambitious.

At the very least you can tell George Lucas has a passion for direction and conveying of his ideas even if the it’s flawed at times. He even studied old war films to convey his ideas here. At least he is trying and has his own original ideas. Kathleen Kennedy, Rian Johnson, and JJ Abraham’s have a very VERY bad sense of build-up and subversion, and dynamics.

Like General Holdo. Even ignoring the clearly biased and established ham-fisting of Left Wing politics... They frame her as this genius commander and smarter than Poe, that she knows what she is doing, and not the fucking retard she is for not letting anyone know about her plan to get the resistance to safety, especially when Poe establishes a MUTINY against her, her stupid ass doesn’t sit him down to talk it out and inform him, if anything Poe is in the right for establishing mutiny against a commander that expects you to blindly trust and follow her orders (check out Vito’s video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ECwhB21Pnk he establishes my distaste for the horrible direction and framing in The Last Jedi, though I don’t like some of the insults he throws.)

It’s like these three don’t understand that this is a trilogy series and that subversion and continuity should be handled with care. These three keep trying to be unique within their respective movies (as a trilogy) and also don’t seem to have an understanding of moral lessons and themes of what makes a healthy and unflawed human being. I understand what they try to go for in the movie, but honestly they do such a poor job of conveying and keeping consistency and continuity that I honestly couldn’t find myself to care for it... and it goes to show George Lucas works very hard at his craft even with the technological limitations of the 20th century he made it work. It is 2018 and they couldn’t even do it. They COMPLETELY alienate the previously established The Force Awakens and subverts for no reason...


2.)
A.) Well don’t you remember Toriyama’s interview on BOG? He said that saiyans also having the ability to get stronger during a fight even outside of just their injuries, it’s just the more they fight in general the stronger they become. It’s also mentioned a few times in-universe and even back in The Namek Arc and when Vegeta breaks it down to his (victims) opponents. Not to mention it’s mentioned with Hit as Vegeta explains it as Hit having a better form of the “Saiyan” ability to grow and adapt in the middle of a fight.

Zamasu is established as having talent and potential that even Goku commends him for, given that and Black’s wording he is taking a more “logical” approach to the saiyan body and it’s abilities, he seems to have a further understanding of the functions of the Saiyan body and abuses it more than Goku and Vegeta, I mean let’s look at the scene where he makes the scythe, it gives us insight into how Black “thinks” about the saiyans power, he sees how Saiyan’s power increases by anger, he goes on to “state” this and talks to Vegeta about how he is going to use it to create an advantage.

B.) well this is where the ambiguity and implications write the story itself. Look at how Whis is analyzing and studying Goku UI, you get the sense that he is “not sure” of it, he really only comes to the conclusion after a moment of watching Goku’s movements. This is conveying or implying that Goku’s version of UI is different from his as he seems to be lacking familiarity with it, even the other gods don’t seem to be really sure of it until they watch Goku’s movements and how he fights.

Now with that in mind and we have a grasp that Whis only has a limited knowledge on Goku here. Now let’s look at his explanation of UI. He conveys the way UI is supposed “feel” from his point of view, that it’s a form of inner calmness and a form of focus, that only he and his opponent exists, that fear, hesitation, and distraction all burns to nothing, and while that may have fit for UI Omen mostly. The second Goku gets the completed form of UI he talks, emotes, and is inspired by his friends (and how Jiren implies his friends can also be his weakness to his emotions) and what we know of Whis’ description of the backfire of UI is.

this can communicate that UI is...
- Goku’s unique version
- that it has some form of inconsistency to Whis’ version and the description of it being a complete focus from the outside
- that Whis had expected a backfire, but not to this extent from his expectation he may have guessed it from either having already seen a form of backlash before, which with either mortal or god. But he never says he expected it until after Goku raged out from his friends, and given Occam’s Razor let’s assume this is a further hint here. The Backlash (the pain and the drain of power that comes with it from Goku’s scene) comes from Whis’ explanation of what UI should feel like and what it should be: silent, focused, and have no emotions.
- is framed as somewhat having a “point” here given how Goku has not outright beaten him yet from raging out, which communicates that Goku may have messed up along the lines. Given my context earlier about how Goku was basically already winning the fight and besides Goku acknowledging how his friends helped him get his strength (which does imply the theme, but also implies with the context and subtext that Goku is lacking mastery of the form from actively emoting here.)

This communicates to me that Goku’s form has a PAINFUL backlash in the form of “if he cannot solely on his opponent and voids his emotion then this form cannot he used efficiently in battle. He CAN do it to boosts it’s power, but at a cost. He gained this power through the help of his friends, but can also lose the power from the help of his friends...” This being my interpretation of what it implies to me of course. The directors work and the creative use of the balancing of implicating subtext and the implication of themes without contradiction is top notch as far as implying and using “show, don’t tell” with this work.

3.) Yeah I could see what you mean as far as that goes I think the first 3 episodes did do that well, don’t get me wrong I love this direction as much as the next guy (See the Z-Fighters vs Freeza’s army in ROF) but then we’d need more episodes and use the timing and establishing of who is where and what is what, and SIMULTANEOUSLY give build-up to the key fights like Goku vs Jiren, Vegeta vs Toppo, etc. and have the rest of the members of the team have a point or purpose here, you can imply ideas more clearly, but if you don’t do it right that idea will be the most present in the forefront of it all.

[ankokudaishogun]

The second Goku gets the completed form of UI he talks, emotes, and is inspired by his friends (and how Jiren implies his friends can also be his weakness to his emotions) and what we know of Whis’ description of the backfire of UI is.

Because Goku completed it.

Now his body is on auto-pilot, and his mind can again work freely without risking to affect the body performance.

[ekrolo2]

2.)
A.) Well don’t you remember Toriyama’s interview on BOG? He said that saiyans also having the ability to get stronger during a fight even outside of just their injuries, it’s just the more they fight in general the stronger they become. It’s also mentioned a few times in-universe and even back in The Namek Arc and when Vegeta breaks it down to his (victims) opponents. Not to mention it’s mentioned with Hit as Vegeta explains it as Hit having a better form of the “Saiyan” ability to grow and adapt in the middle of a fight.

Zamasu is established as having talent and potential that even Goku commends him for, given that and Black’s wording he is taking a more “logical” approach to the saiyan body and it’s abilities, he seems to have a further understanding of the functions of the Saiyan body and abuses it more than Goku and Vegeta, I mean let’s look at the scene where he makes the scythe, it gives us insight into how Black “thinks” about the saiyans power, he sees how Saiyan’s power increases by anger, he goes on to “state” this and talks to Vegeta about how he is going to use it to create an advantage.

B.) well this is where the ambiguity and implications write the story itself. Look at how Whis is analyzing and studying Goku UI, you get the sense that he is “not sure” of it, he really only comes to the conclusion after a moment of watching Goku’s movements. This is conveying or implying that Goku’s version of UI is different from his as he seems to be lacking familiarity with it, even the other gods don’t seem to be really sure of it until they watch Goku’s movements and how he fights.

Now with that in mind and we have a grasp that Whis only has a limited knowledge on Goku here. Now let’s look at his explanation of UI. He conveys the way UI is supposed “feel” from his point of view, that it’s a form of inner calmness and a form of focus, that only he and his opponent exists, that fear, hesitation, and distraction all burns to nothing, and while that may have fit for UI Omen mostly. The second Goku gets the completed form of UI he talks, emotes, and is inspired by his friends (and how Jiren implies his friends can also be his weakness to his emotions) and what we know of Whis’ description of the backfire of UI is.

this can communicate that UI is...
- Goku’s unique version
- that it has some form of inconsistency to Whis’ version and the description of it being a complete focus from the outside
- that Whis had expected a backfire, but not to this extent from his expectation he may have guessed it from either having already seen a form of backlash before, which with either mortal or god. But he never says he expected it until after Goku raged out from his friends, and given Occam’s Razor let’s assume this is a further hint here. The Backlash (the pain and the drain of power that comes with it from Goku’s scene) comes from Whis’ explanation of what UI should feel like and what it should be: silent, focused, and have no emotions.
- is framed as somewhat having a “point” here given how Goku has not outright beaten him yet from raging out, which communicates that Goku may have messed up along the lines. Given my context earlier about how Goku was basically already winning the fight and besides Goku acknowledging how his friends helped him get his strength (which does imply the theme, but also implies with the context and subtext that Goku is lacking mastery of the form from actively emoting here.)

This communicates to me that Goku’s form has a PAINFUL backlash in the form of “if he cannot solely on his opponent and voids his emotion then this form cannot he used efficiently in battle. He CAN do it to boosts it’s power, but at a cost. He gained this power through the help of his friends, but can also lose the power from the help of his friends...” This being my interpretation of what it implies to me of course. The directors work and the creative use of the balancing of implicating subtext and the implication of themes without contradiction is top notch as far as implying and using “show, don’t tell” with this work.

I remember the BoG interview, I just don't take it seriously because nothing previously ever works like it and outside of the anime version of the BoG battle, nothing afterward does either. There are no instances SSGod excluded which is a whole other mess has Goku or any Saiyan power-up vastly just from trading punches with people. Nor does anyone get power boosts and randomly heal within battle the way Black does. Hell, even the Battle of Gods film the interview is in reference to has Goku become more powerful as he fights Beerus since his SS form, post-absorption there, is weaker than his SSGod form.

As far as the UI thing, I don't think having Whis talk about the blowback makes it connected to the rage out, once again, if the story wanted to make a correlation between the two of them, it would've said so. Remember, this is ToP explanation where everyone most basic bullshit ever that even a mentally deficient 2-year-old with an IQ of a rock could understand is being spouted ad nauseam but NOWs the time we're supposed to make interpretations and correlations and read between the lines? The part where "Friendship is good, Jiren!" is beaten to us over our heads constantly, this one thing, this one connection is supposed to be subtle? I don't buy it. I'm not saying you can't interpret it this way and enjoy it as such, but I just don't find anything deeper here, especially given how heavy-handed everything so far has been.

Then again this is the same show where Trunks gets something like Super Saiyan Blue and nobody ever talks about it so who knows, maybe the invisible d20 roll did land on this being the subtle thing out of everything.

[Master Xar]

2.)
A.) Well don’t you remember Toriyama’s interview on BOG? He said that saiyans also having the ability to get stronger during a fight even outside of just their injuries, it’s just the more they fight in general the stronger they become. It’s also mentioned a few times in-universe and even back in The Namek Arc and when Vegeta breaks it down to his (victims) opponents. Not to mention it’s mentioned with Hit as Vegeta explains it as Hit having a better form of the “Saiyan” ability to grow and adapt in the middle of a fight.

Zamasu is established as having talent and potential that even Goku commends him for, given that and Black’s wording he is taking a more “logical” approach to the saiyan body and it’s abilities, he seems to have a further understanding of the functions of the Saiyan body and abuses it more than Goku and Vegeta, I mean let’s look at the scene where he makes the scythe, it gives us insight into how Black “thinks” about the saiyans power, he sees how Saiyan’s power increases by anger, he goes on to “state” this and talks to Vegeta about how he is going to use it to create an advantage.

B.) well this is where the ambiguity and implications write the story itself. Look at how Whis is analyzing and studying Goku UI, you get the sense that he is “not sure” of it, he really only comes to the conclusion after a moment of watching Goku’s movements. This is conveying or implying that Goku’s version of UI is different from his as he seems to be lacking familiarity with it, even the other gods don’t seem to be really sure of it until they watch Goku’s movements and how he fights.

Now with that in mind and we have a grasp that Whis only has a limited knowledge on Goku here. Now let’s look at his explanation of UI. He conveys the way UI is supposed “feel” from his point of view, that it’s a form of inner calmness and a form of focus, that only he and his opponent exists, that fear, hesitation, and distraction all burns to nothing, and while that may have fit for UI Omen mostly. The second Goku gets the completed form of UI he talks, emotes, and is inspired by his friends (and how Jiren implies his friends can also be his weakness to his emotions) and what we know of Whis’ description of the backfire of UI is.

this can communicate that UI is...
- Goku’s unique version
- that it has some form of inconsistency to Whis’ version and the description of it being a complete focus from the outside
- that Whis had expected a backfire, but not to this extent from his expectation he may have guessed it from either having already seen a form of backlash before, which with either mortal or god. But he never says he expected it until after Goku raged out from his friends, and given Occam’s Razor let’s assume this is a further hint here. The Backlash (the pain and the drain of power that comes with it from Goku’s scene) comes from Whis’ explanation of what UI should feel like and what it should be: silent, focused, and have no emotions.
- is framed as somewhat having a “point” here given how Goku has not outright beaten him yet from raging out, which communicates that Goku may have messed up along the lines. Given my context earlier about how Goku was basically already winning the fight and besides Goku acknowledging how his friends helped him get his strength (which does imply the theme, but also implies with the context and subtext that Goku is lacking mastery of the form from actively emoting here.)

This communicates to me that Goku’s form has a PAINFUL backlash in the form of “if he cannot solely on his opponent and voids his emotion then this form cannot he used efficiently in battle. He CAN do it to boosts it’s power, but at a cost. He gained this power through the help of his friends, but can also lose the power from the help of his friends...” This being my interpretation of what it implies to me of course. The directors work and the creative use of the balancing of implicating subtext and the implication of themes without contradiction is top notch as far as implying and using “show, don’t tell” with this work.

I remember the BoG interview, I just don't take it seriously because nothing previously ever works like it and outside of the anime version of the BoG battle, nothing afterward does either. There are no instances SSGod excluded which is a whole other mess has Goku or any Saiyan power-up vastly just from trading punches with people. Nor does anyone get power boosts and randomly heal within battle the way Black does. Hell, even the Battle of Gods film the interview is in reference to has Goku become more powerful as he fights Beerus since his SS form, post-absorption there, is weaker than his SSGod form.

As far as the UI thing, I don't think having Whis talk about the blowback makes it connected to the rage out, once again, if the story wanted to make a correlation between the two of them, it would've said so. Remember, this is ToP explanation where everyone most basic bullshit ever that even a mentally deficient 2-year-old with an IQ of a rock could understand is being spouted ad nauseam but NOWs the time we're supposed to make interpretations and correlations and read between the lines? The part where "Friendship is good, Jiren!" is beaten to us over our heads constantly, this one thing, this one connection is supposed to be subtle? I don't buy it. I'm not saying you can't interpret it this way and enjoy it as such, but I just don't find anything deeper here, especially given how heavy-handed everything so far has been.

Then again this is the same show where Trunks gets something like Super Saiyan Blue and nobody ever talks about it so who knows, maybe the invisible d20 roll did land on this being the subtle thing out of everything.

1.) well there are instances, you just have to look for them man. Like Kale and Caulifla. Even without saying their progress is absolutely staggering as far as saiyans go, and their potential shows it. Another instance is in episode 122, where both Vegeta AND Goku begin to adapt to Jiren and his power, whether that be through their own power or they come up with strategies conveys just how much of battle freaks Goku and Vegeta and within the context of all of Dragonball are it shows here.

> What’s saying that Black is healing? As far as I see it he is just really tough and able to take more punishment than Goku or Vegeta. He is just using the other power as far as I see it.

2.) Well of course man, that’s all part in the fun of going back and analyzing a show, you can’t be too firm in your interpretations of a work, that’s all part of the fun of “show and tell” build-ups and subversions. That’s why I’m here to tell you that you should try to rewatch the show or arc to try to understand what was said about it. That’s why I always try to look into a work with no pre-conceived notions or am not too firm footed in my opinions. You and me both agreed at one point that The Future Trunks arc ending was rushed after 61 and that is why I decided to go back and look at it again to try and understand what the work was trying to speak to me with without thinking it was “rushed” and completely understood it.

Hell I even came to understand how the Time Travel was used and that within the context of Time Travel rules it all works so well and makes sense. And I even began to understand that Trunks coming back actually makes sense BECAUSE of the rules of time travel and how reality deals with “anomalies”

It’s great man you’d be surprised with how many subtleties there are. And besides some of those exposition bits could be a lot of fun if you think they add to them, they’re hype for the power-ups like in the old DBZ days. Besides in out-of-universe context it gives the animators more time to add to the good bits later.

[ekrolo2]

2.)
A.) Well don’t you remember Toriyama’s interview on BOG? He said that saiyans also having the ability to get stronger during a fight even outside of just their injuries, it’s just the more they fight in general the stronger they become. It’s also mentioned a few times in-universe and even back in The Namek Arc and when Vegeta breaks it down to his (victims) opponents. Not to mention it’s mentioned with Hit as Vegeta explains it as Hit having a better form of the “Saiyan” ability to grow and adapt in the middle of a fight.

Zamasu is established as having talent and potential that even Goku commends him for, given that and Black’s wording he is taking a more “logical” approach to the saiyan body and it’s abilities, he seems to have a further understanding of the functions of the Saiyan body and abuses it more than Goku and Vegeta, I mean let’s look at the scene where he makes the scythe, it gives us insight into how Black “thinks” about the saiyans power, he sees how Saiyan’s power increases by anger, he goes on to “state” this and talks to Vegeta about how he is going to use it to create an advantage.

B.) well this is where the ambiguity and implications write the story itself. Look at how Whis is analyzing and studying Goku UI, you get the sense that he is “not sure” of it, he really only comes to the conclusion after a moment of watching Goku’s movements. This is conveying or implying that Goku’s version of UI is different from his as he seems to be lacking familiarity with it, even the other gods don’t seem to be really sure of it until they watch Goku’s movements and how he fights.

Now with that in mind and we have a grasp that Whis only has a limited knowledge on Goku here. Now let’s look at his explanation of UI. He conveys the way UI is supposed “feel” from his point of view, that it’s a form of inner calmness and a form of focus, that only he and his opponent exists, that fear, hesitation, and distraction all burns to nothing, and while that may have fit for UI Omen mostly. The second Goku gets the completed form of UI he talks, emotes, and is inspired by his friends (and how Jiren implies his friends can also be his weakness to his emotions) and what we know of Whis’ description of the backfire of UI is.

this can communicate that UI is...
- Goku’s unique version
- that it has some form of inconsistency to Whis’ version and the description of it being a complete focus from the outside
- that Whis had expected a backfire, but not to this extent from his expectation he may have guessed it from either having already seen a form of backlash before, which with either mortal or god. But he never says he expected it until after Goku raged out from his friends, and given Occam’s Razor let’s assume this is a further hint here. The Backlash (the pain and the drain of power that comes with it from Goku’s scene) comes from Whis’ explanation of what UI should feel like and what it should be: silent, focused, and have no emotions.
- is framed as somewhat having a “point” here given how Goku has not outright beaten him yet from raging out, which communicates that Goku may have messed up along the lines. Given my context earlier about how Goku was basically already winning the fight and besides Goku acknowledging how his friends helped him get his strength (which does imply the theme, but also implies with the context and subtext that Goku is lacking mastery of the form from actively emoting here.)

This communicates to me that Goku’s form has a PAINFUL backlash in the form of “if he cannot solely on his opponent and voids his emotion then this form cannot he used efficiently in battle. He CAN do it to boosts it’s power, but at a cost. He gained this power through the help of his friends, but can also lose the power from the help of his friends...” This being my interpretation of what it implies to me of course. The directors work and the creative use of the balancing of implicating subtext and the implication of themes without contradiction is top notch as far as implying and using “show, don’t tell” with this work.

I remember the BoG interview, I just don't take it seriously because nothing previously ever works like it and outside of the anime version of the BoG battle, nothing afterward does either. There are no instances SSGod excluded which is a whole other mess has Goku or any Saiyan power-up vastly just from trading punches with people. Nor does anyone get power boosts and randomly heal within battle the way Black does. Hell, even the Battle of Gods film the interview is in reference to has Goku become more powerful as he fights Beerus since his SS form, post-absorption there, is weaker than his SSGod form.

As far as the UI thing, I don't think having Whis talk about the blowback makes it connected to the rage out, once again, if the story wanted to make a correlation between the two of them, it would've said so. Remember, this is ToP explanation where everyone most basic bullshit ever that even a mentally deficient 2-year-old with an IQ of a rock could understand is being spouted ad nauseam but NOWs the time we're supposed to make interpretations and correlations and read between the lines? The part where "Friendship is good, Jiren!" is beaten to us over our heads constantly, this one thing, this one connection is supposed to be subtle? I don't buy it. I'm not saying you can't interpret it this way and enjoy it as such, but I just don't find anything deeper here, especially given how heavy-handed everything so far has been.

Then again this is the same show where Trunks gets something like Super Saiyan Blue and nobody ever talks about it so who knows, maybe the invisible d20 roll did land on this being the subtle thing out of everything.

1.) well there are instances, you just have to look for them man. Like Kale and Caulifla. Even without saying their progress is absolutely staggering as far as saiyans go, and their potential shows it. Another instance is in episode 122, where both Vegeta AND Goku begin to adapt to Jiren and his power, whether that be through their own power or they come up with strategies conveys just how much of battle freaks Goku and Vegeta and within the context of all of Dragonball are it shows here.

> What’s saying that Black is healing? As far as I see it he is just really tough and able to take more punishment than Goku or Vegeta. He is just using the other power as far as I see it.

2.) Well of course man, that’s all part in the fun of going back and analyzing a show, you can’t be too firm in your interpretations of a work, that’s all part of the fun of “show and tell” build-ups and subversions. That’s why I’m here to tell you that you should try to rewatch the show or arc to try to understand what was said about it. That’s why I always try to look into a work with no pre-conceived notions or am not too firm footed in my opinions. You and me both agreed at one point that The Future Trunks arc ending was rushed after 61 and that is why I decided to go back and look at it again to try and understand what the work was trying to speak to me with without thinking it was “rushed” and completely understood it.

Hell I even came to understand how the Time Travel was used and that within the context of Time Travel rules it all works so well and makes sense. And I even began to understand that Trunks coming back actually makes sense BECAUSE of the rules of time travel and how reality deals with “anomalies”

It’s great man you’d be surprised with how many subtleties there are. And besides some of those exposition bits could be a lot of fun if you think they add to them, they’re hype for the power-ups like in the old DBZ days. Besides in out-of-universe context it gives the animators more time to add to the good bits later.

I have gone back and rewatched a lot of Supers content, I still don't like it or see deeper meaning, the execution remains as poor as the first time. And this comes from a guy who constantly goes back to re-watch or reread things to see what new impressions I'll find or to see if I'll like something more or less.

But sometimes there is no magic factor that'll make something work for you, opinions on certain things don't change. My love of say Batman Begins hasn't waned nor have I found appreciation for Super the same way I have for Iron Man 3.

[Master Xar]

I remember the BoG interview, I just don't take it seriously because nothing previously ever works like it and outside of the anime version of the BoG battle, nothing afterward does either. There are no instances SSGod excluded which is a whole other mess has Goku or any Saiyan power-up vastly just from trading punches with people. Nor does anyone get power boosts and randomly heal within battle the way Black does. Hell, even the Battle of Gods film the interview is in reference to has Goku become more powerful as he fights Beerus since his SS form, post-absorption there, is weaker than his SSGod form.

As far as the UI thing, I don't think having Whis talk about the blowback makes it connected to the rage out, once again, if the story wanted to make a correlation between the two of them, it would've said so. Remember, this is ToP explanation where everyone most basic bullshit ever that even a mentally deficient 2-year-old with an IQ of a rock could understand is being spouted ad nauseam but NOWs the time we're supposed to make interpretations and correlations and read between the lines? The part where "Friendship is good, Jiren!" is beaten to us over our heads constantly, this one thing, this one connection is supposed to be subtle? I don't buy it. I'm not saying you can't interpret it this way and enjoy it as such, but I just don't find anything deeper here, especially given how heavy-handed everything so far has been.

Then again this is the same show where Trunks gets something like Super Saiyan Blue and nobody ever talks about it so who knows, maybe the invisible d20 roll did land on this being the subtle thing out of everything.

1.) well there are instances, you just have to look for them man. Like Kale and Caulifla. Even without saying their progress is absolutely staggering as far as saiyans go, and their potential shows it. Another instance is in episode 122, where both Vegeta AND Goku begin to adapt to Jiren and his power, whether that be through their own power or they come up with strategies conveys just how much of battle freaks Goku and Vegeta and within the context of all of Dragonball are it shows here.

> What’s saying that Black is healing? As far as I see it he is just really tough and able to take more punishment than Goku or Vegeta. He is just using the other power as far as I see it.

2.) Well of course man, that’s all part in the fun of going back and analyzing a show, you can’t be too firm in your interpretations of a work, that’s all part of the fun of “show and tell” build-ups and subversions. That’s why I’m here to tell you that you should try to rewatch the show or arc to try to understand what was said about it. That’s why I always try to look into a work with no pre-conceived notions or am not too firm footed in my opinions. You and me both agreed at one point that The Future Trunks arc ending was rushed after 61 and that is why I decided to go back and look at it again to try and understand what the work was trying to speak to me with without thinking it was “rushed” and completely understood it.

Hell I even came to understand how the Time Travel was used and that within the context of Time Travel rules it all works so well and makes sense. And I even began to understand that Trunks coming back actually makes sense BECAUSE of the rules of time travel and how reality deals with “anomalies”

It’s great man you’d be surprised with how many subtleties there are. And besides some of those exposition bits could be a lot of fun if you think they add to them, they’re hype for the power-ups like in the old DBZ days. Besides in out-of-universe context it gives the animators more time to add to the good bits later.

I have gone back and rewatched a lot of Supers content, I still don't like it or see deeper meaning, the execution remains as poor as the first time. And this comes from a guy who constantly goes back to re-watch or reread things to see what new impressions I'll find or to see if I'll like something more or less.

But sometimes there is no magic factor that'll make something work for you, opinions on certain things don't change. My love of say Batman Begins hasn't waned nor have I found appreciation for Super the same way I have for Iron Man 3.

Well that depends on the leeway you are willing to give a show, I’m almost always interested to watch something new or interesting and how it conveys it’s ideas in a way that entertains me. You can’t look at a show like it’s always badly executed until it feels that way, The Last Jedi when I went to see it in theatres, I came with no expectations and let the events play out in front of me without thinking too much into it. I absorbed into the movie entirely. I felt that I wasn’t bored, I felt that there was no continuity in any sake as far as the characters, the trilogy, and that in general it didn’t “feel” like Star Wars in a meaningful way that had me walking out the theatre to think about it or that it held my interest, I did not want to look back on it ever again. Same with Evolution, it wasn’t interesting because it had no consistency or balance of build-ups, pay-offs and conveyance, nor even any interesting or unique spins on ideas and concepts with it’s runtime, it never spoke to me even when I rewatched it, I came to realize it was a poorly directed pile of garbage along with Avatar.
I looked at ALL those films with no biases on their behalf to give them a fair shot and they were fundamentally garbage movies from even an unbiased standpoint as far as direction and perspective of filmwork.

You have to rewatch the entire arc from beginning to end, with your knowledge on Dragonball of what is said or is not said. That there is a “flow” here even if it’s not immediate. That even if something is already obvious to you try to add it to your experience. And if you feel like you are missing something look deeper.

something is giving you the drive to come back and rewatch it, to think about it, to come here and discuss with us to see if somebody else understands it, to help your opinion...if not... disagree with them and confirm your own man. There is a hunger that compels us as people to go and relook or think about something that held their attention or interest on a subconscious level. Many people overlook the “Don’t Like it, Don’t Watch it” thing and while it may be flawed on the level of watching something the first time, but watching it more than once willingly? It says one of two things either A.) I subconsciously hate this thing so much that I will break down why it sucks in my mid to confirm my suspicions, in which case they may leave eventually or B.) I really like this, but I don’t seem to understand why I like this thing. You either really, really love it, or really really hate it.

You like the show more than you think man, otherwise you wouldn’t rewatch it or even want to think of talk about it with us. You’d be on another forum on a different show. Every show could have better execution. It is all in if you could understand it or guess the meaning with what the story gives you.

[ekrolo2]

something is giving you the drive to come back and rewatch it, to think about it, to come here and discuss with us to see if somebody else understands it, to help your opinion...if not... disagree with them and confirm your own man. There is a hunger that compels us as people to go and relook or think about something that held their attention or interest on a subconscious level. Many people overlook the “Don’t Like it, Don’t Watch it” thing and while it may be flawed on the level of watching something the first time, but watching it more than once willingly? It says one of two things either A.) I subconsciously hate this thing so much that I will break down why it sucks in my mid to confirm my suspicions, in which case they may leave eventually or B.) I really like this, but I don’t seem to understand why I like this thing. You either really, really love it, or really really hate it.

You like the show more than you think man, otherwise you wouldn’t rewatch it or even want to think of talk about it with us. You’d be on another forum on a different show. Every show could have better execution. It is all in if you could understand it or guess the meaning with what the story gives you.

I don't really agree with the assertion that I like something I know I don't. I would sooner say that I keep finding people who really seem to dig into Super, talking about actual themes and ideas and every time I'm in danger of possibly getting it, Super does what Super does and ruins my investment in it. Dangling something potentially good only to do nothing with it before using it's latest batch of sakuga to cover up story deficiencies.

[Master Xar]

something is giving you the drive to come back and rewatch it, to think about it, to come here and discuss with us to see if somebody else understands it, to help your opinion...if not... disagree with them and confirm your own man. There is a hunger that compels us as people to go and relook or think about something that held their attention or interest on a subconscious level. Many people overlook the “Don’t Like it, Don’t Watch it” thing and while it may be flawed on the level of watching something the first time, but watching it more than once willingly? It says one of two things either A.) I subconsciously hate this thing so much that I will break down why it sucks in my mid to confirm my suspicions, in which case they may leave eventually or B.) I really like this, but I don’t seem to understand why I like this thing. You either really, really love it, or really really hate it.

You like the show more than you think man, otherwise you wouldn’t rewatch it or even want to think of talk about it with us. You’d be on another forum on a different show. Every show could have better execution. It is all in if you could understand it or guess the meaning with what the story gives you.

I don't really agree with the assertion that I like something I know I don't. I would sooner say that I keep finding people who really seem to dig into Super, talking about actual themes and ideas and every time I'm in danger of possibly getting it, Super does what Super does and ruins my investment in it. Dangling something potentially good only to do nothing with it before using it's latest batch of sakuga to cover up story deficiencies.

Well that’s just the thing man. You want to understand it. You want the story to speak to you like it spoke to the people that liked it. Your convictions for your opinions are a good thing man, but you have to allow yourself some room, look back at the old series and get an understanding of the characters, the storytelling, the flow, you must breath in all you can of Dragonball and what you can gather use your imagination of all that is not said, but can be gathered. You have to think on your own of how it speaks to you. Your curiousity leads to further curiousity. If the story spoke to them, you just got to look harder, look from a different angle or perspective. Have an open-mind.

Here is a more easy way to understand it.

A story: “It shows you things that are relevant to the goals the dialogue/exposition establishes.”

What you get out of that within the limitations of the staff and the show, and what your standards for them are. Are completely up to you.