Director for the finale of Super breaks down Jiren's character during the final stages of the TOP

[supersaiyanZero]

Megumi Ishitani in response to a question on twitter a while back broke down the creative choices made in episode 131, as well as Jiren's character.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]
How do people feel about the her explanation of the creative choices around the episode, as well as her explanation of Jiren's character?

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

[Master Xar]

Megumi Ishitani in response to a question on twitter a while back broke down the creative choices made in episode 131, as well as Jiren's character.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]
How do people feel about the her explanation of the creative choices around the episode, as well as her explanation of Jiren's character?

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

Well yeah they did. This is an art form. You show and don’t tell and if you look back at Jiren’s actions and backstory and compare him to Goku’s the theme is quite clearly established before it is even said. There is no “bad storytelling” outside of the basic constructive structure of what makes a story. Why are you saying this now? Because you simply didn’t get it until the director basically had to go out of the way to show you that you’re and you feel stupid for it.

[PFM18]

Megumi Ishitani in response to a question on twitter a while back broke down the creative choices made in episode 131, as well as Jiren's character.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]
How do people feel about the her explanation of the creative choices around the episode, as well as her explanation of Jiren's character?

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

Or maybe you were too focused on complaining to understand the complexity. This should be nothing entirely new it was clear this was what was trying to he conveyed. Theres a few nuanced things that were cleared up by that post but for the most part it was portrayed clearly on scteen.

[supersaiyanZero]

Megumi Ishitani in response to a question on twitter a while back broke down the creative choices made in episode 131, as well as Jiren's character.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]
How do people feel about the her explanation of the creative choices around the episode, as well as her explanation of Jiren's character?

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

Well yeah they did. This is an art form. You show and don’t tell and if you look back at Jiren’s actions and backstory and compare him to Goku’s the theme is quite clearly established before it is even said. There is no “bad storytelling” outside of the basic constructive structure of what makes a story. Why are you saying this now? Because you simply didn’t get it until the director basically had to go out of the way to show you that you’re and you feel stupid for it.

Megumi Ishitani in response to a question on twitter a while back broke down the creative choices made in episode 131, as well as Jiren's character.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]
How do people feel about the her explanation of the creative choices around the episode, as well as her explanation of Jiren's character?

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

Or maybe you were too focused on complaining to understand the complexity. This should be nothing entirely new it was clear this was what was trying to he conveyed. Theres a few nuanced things that were cleared up by that post but for the most part it was portrayed clearly on scteen.

Again, ridiculous. I don't know what's more insulting - that you suggested I didn't pick up on the generic dialogue involving Jiren's view/Goku's view as opposing beliefs that they were staking their battles on, or suggesting that the complexity of these opposing ideals is so intricately woven into the arc and it's characters that it demands a second viewing. What we got was one note, extremely generic (even by Shounen standards) protagonist vs antagonist battle in every regard including ideals.

[Master Xar]

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

Well yeah they did. This is an art form. You show and don’t tell and if you look back at Jiren’s actions and backstory and compare him to Goku’s the theme is quite clearly established before it is even said. There is no “bad storytelling” outside of the basic constructive structure of what makes a story. Why are you saying this now? Because you simply didn’t get it until the director basically had to go out of the way to show you that you’re and you feel stupid for it.

that is just absolutely ridiculous. IF so much thought went into Jiren and the opposing duality of beliefs between him and Goku is true, then the Super has proved again what an atrocious piece of storytelling it is especially in the ToP arc. They did not succeed at all in presenting the layered complexity they are trying to say is present in the arc.

Or maybe you were too focused on complaining to understand the complexity. This should be nothing entirely new it was clear this was what was trying to he conveyed. Theres a few nuanced things that were cleared up by that post but for the most part it was portrayed clearly on scteen.

Again, ridiculous. I don't know what's more insulting - that you suggested I didn't pick up on the generic dialogue involving Jiren's view/Goku's view as opposing beliefs that they were staking their battles on, or suggesting that the complexity of these opposing ideals is so intricately woven into the arc and it's characters that it demands a second viewing. What we got was one note, extremely generic (even by Shounen standards) protagonist vs antagonist battle in every regard including ideals.

You are so... I’m going to guess you relate to Vegeta quite a bit huh?

Just enjoy the show man. Don’t be too afraid to admit it ok? There is an entire section here you can enjoy the show with.

[Skar]

Just enjoy the show man. Don’t be too afraid to admit it ok? There is an entire section here you can enjoy the show with.

To be honest, the notion that he does enjoy the show but is afraid to admit it comes off as really insulting. The reason why we're all here is because we're fans of the original series. If you're a fan of a series then chances are you're going to watch the sequel in hopes that it lives up to the original. That's why I kept watching every new Terminator, Star Wars, and films of other classic franchises that gets milked to death. Do I think these movies are 100% bad? No, there were a few scenes I enjoyed here and there same with DBS. A fan should be able to address their concerns without being accused of just pretending not to like it.

[Master Xar]

Just enjoy the show man. Don’t be too afraid to admit it ok? There is an entire section here you can enjoy the show with.

To be honest, the notion that he does enjoy the show but is afraid to admit it comes off as really insulting. The reason why we're all here is because we're fans of the original series. If you're a fan of a series then chances are you're going to watch the sequel in hopes that it lives up to the original. That's why I kept watching every new Terminator, Star Wars, and films of other classic franchises that gets milked to death. Do I think these movies are 100% bad? No, there were a few scenes I enjoyed here and there same with DBS. A fan should be able to address their concerns without being accused of just pretending not to like it.

Well of course. But I honestly read that from him really. On a subconscious level we are always interested by things that suit our taste if he truly hated the show he’d completely ignore it or at the very least avoid talking about it in other sections, his actions convey that he clearly wants to be wrong or called out, or at the very least wants validation. I’ve seen this user around the section of course.

Or he’s been jaded by the idea that Dragonball being seen as “generic” in any way without knowing that this series is. Yes. A shounen.

But that’s not to say this is bad, in some form of another he is curious and has a reason for being here or else he wouldn’t really be here.

[Skar]

Well of course. But I honestly read that from him really. On a subconscious level we are always interested by things that suit our taste if he truly hated the show he’d completely ignore it or at the very least avoid talking about it in other sections, his actions convey that he clearly wants to be wrong or called out, or at the very least wants validation. I’ve seen this user around the section of course.

Or he’s been jaded by the idea that Dragonball being seen as “generic” in any way without knowing that this series is. Yes. A shounen.

But that’s not to say this is bad, in some form of another he is curious and has a reason for being here or else he wouldn’t really be here.

Well, wasn't Toriyama considered somewhat of a pioneer back then? Dragonball wasn't perfect and had it's fair share of flaws but at the time of its release, I don't think Dragonball was considered generic and that's what lead to it inspiring so many manga artists that came after. There were plenty of other shonen series that came out during the early 90's but not many were popular enough to get a sequel almost 20 years later. One of the reasons why he is disappointed might be because he feels it could only amount to being generic now.

I think the subconscious level could go both ways. To give you an example, I suffered from some depression when I was younger and I used to come up with all kinds of excuses to accept something that I knew was bad. I realized that doing that isn't to argue that it's great but that it's merely passable and as good as it can get. To be honest, I see a lot of similarities with that old mentality I had and the way some fans go to great lengths to defend DBS. Obviously, I have no idea what's going on in their heads subconsciously and I'm just sharing my experience and how it could relate here. A possible reason for these excuses is that we're disappointed and we try to convince ourselves that we should just accept it because it can't get any better.

Fortunately, there's always room for improvement. When you watch a sequel, a basic expectation is that it tries to improve on the original and overcome the flaws suffered from. That's not really the case with DBS which is why we constantly have fans pointing out flaws or examples of bad writing in DB/Z so justify it happening in DBS. In every other conceivable situation in life, this would be considered a horrible excuse that doesn't make a lot of sense. If someone screws up at something and their only justification was that they screwed up on it before then they'd look pretty stupid for never learning from it. The format for DBS gave an opportunity to have a more coherent and thoughout story than the original. Toriyama was confined to a weekly schedule for several years so there probably wasn't a lot of time to think things through and iron out the details. He's known for writing as he went along but I'm sure it would've helped to sometimes take a break and think about what he wants to do next. DBS doesn't suffer from this problem because they're given the entire outline from the beginning so they have the opportunity to plan out the entire saga. The writing feels disjointed at times between episodes so maybe there's a lack of communication between the various writers, maybe they're rushed, or maybe they know Dragonball's name will carry the series enough without them needing to put too much effort into the writing. I try to stay positive and hope that they overcome these issues in the future. If they all they can offer us is something generic, maybe they should consider retiring the series for good.

[Master Xar]

Well of course. But I honestly read that from him really. On a subconscious level we are always interested by things that suit our taste if he truly hated the show he’d completely ignore it or at the very least avoid talking about it in other sections, his actions convey that he clearly wants to be wrong or called out, or at the very least wants validation. I’ve seen this user around the section of course.

Or he’s been jaded by the idea that Dragonball being seen as “generic” in any way without knowing that this series is. Yes. A shounen.

But that’s not to say this is bad, in some form of another he is curious and has a reason for being here or else he wouldn’t really be here.

Well, wasn't Toriyama considered somewhat of a pioneer back then? Dragonball wasn't perfect and had it's fair share of flaws but at the time of its release, I don't think Dragonball was considered generic and that's what lead to it inspiring so many manga artists that came after. There were plenty of other shonen series that came out during the early 90's but not many were popular enough to get a sequel almost 20 years later. One of the reasons why he is disappointed might be because he feels it could only amount to being generic now.

I think the subconscious level could go both ways. To give you an example, I suffered from some depression when I was younger and I used to come up with all kinds of excuses to accept something that I knew was bad. I realized that doing that isn't to argue that it's great but that it's merely passable and as good as it can get. To be honest, I see a lot of similarities with that old mentality I had and the way some fans go to great lengths to defend DBS. Obviously, I have no idea what's going on in their heads subconsciously and I'm just sharing my experience and how it could relate here. A possible reason for these excuses is that we're disappointed and we try to convince ourselves that we should just accept it because it can't get any better.

Fortunately, there's always room for improvement. When you watch a sequel, a basic expectation is that it tries to improve on the original and overcome the flaws suffered from. That's not really the case with DBS which is why we constantly have fans pointing out flaws or examples of bad writing in DB/Z so justify it happening in DBS. In every other conceivable situation in life, this would be considered a horrible excuse that doesn't make a lot of sense. If someone screws up at something and their only justification was that they screwed up on it before then they'd look pretty stupid for never learning from it. The format for DBS gave an opportunity to have a more coherent and thoughout story than the original. Toriyama was confined to a weekly schedule for several years so there probably wasn't a lot of time to think things through and iron out the details. He's known for writing as he went along but I'm sure it would've helped to sometimes take a break and think about what he wants to do next. DBS doesn't suffer from this problem because they're given the entire outline from the beginning so they have the opportunity to plan out the entire saga. The writing feels disjointed at times between episodes so maybe there's a lack of communication between the various writers, maybe they're rushed, or maybe they know Dragonball's name will carry the series enough without them needing to put too much effort into the writing. I try to stay positive and hope that they overcome these issues in the future. If they all they can offer us is something generic, maybe they should consider retiring the series for good.

Well those are only flaws unless you let yourself see them as flaws man. Storytelling is an art form. The story and it’s conflict is all in how you take it in. You only see something as generic if you let yourself or somebody else see it as generic.

The entire time I was watching Super I was depressed from quite literally from beginning to end and was quite literally in the same position as you just described except... I knew deep down in my heart that this was Dragonball and even when everyone was saying it was terrible. I knew it deep within my very soul. I know Dragonball Z in and out, through my very soul I felt that Super even with it’s faults were still just as good.

And who’s to say that it did not? It clearly got popular for a reason. A lot of the criticism of Super is the fact that people never went back to Dragonball Z to know that it actually makes sense for the universe established and aren’t very open-minded. I don’t feel half of what you just described currently because I re-evaluated my stance on Super. If you look at Super, outside of some established pre-production issues on the animation. The storyboarding and direction is absolutely masterful work, especially in the TOP. DBZ while it also was very well and worked with it’s limitations I honestly feel that Super is a worthy successor in nearly every way, it works as a sequel so well because I went back and then came to understand the craft of storytelling whether that be visually, through sound, what the characters say, what they don’t say, etc.

I came to breathe in Dragonball through and through. And I love both Dragonball Z and Super all the more for it. I’m currently going to go back and finally come to watch the Dragonball to get even more understanding.


What are your criticisms on Super? Perhaps I can change your mind with my interpretation.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I wish some of this had been explored a little more, instead of directly in the Tournament.

[Skar]

Well those are only flaws unless you let yourself see them as flaws man. Storytelling is an art form. The story and it’s conflict is all in how you take it in. You only see something as generic if you let yourself or somebody else see it as generic.

I respect your opinion and how you're willing to not see them as flaws. My goal wasn't to change anyone's mind and I only wanted to share my experience and how it might relate to other fans. I feel there's a big difference between theorizing the author's intent vs coming up with any kind of headcanon to cover something unexplained in the story or looking for a deeper meaning that likely isn't there. I admit I would've been guilty of doing the latter for DBS. In a fan comic, the author usually distinguishes between what is only headcanon that only applies to their story because the original never went into detail. I believe an official story written by supposed professionals should be held to a higher standard than fan work but I feel that I have do the opposite to keep watching DBS. I find myself having to come up with more excuses and headcanons for ideas in DBS that I've never given a pass to in a fan comic. I try to be fair and ask the question "would I ever really accept this in AF, DBM, New Age, or any fan comic?" and if the answer no then I shouldn't be obligated to do that for DBS.

And who’s to say that it did not? It clearly got popular for a reason. A lot of the criticism of Super is the fact that people never went back to Dragonball Z to know that it actually makes sense for the universe established and aren’t very open-minded. I don’t feel half of what you just described currently because I re-evaluated my stance on Super. If you look at Super, outside of some established pre-production issues on the animation. The storyboarding and direction is absolutely masterful work, especially in the TOP. DBZ while it also was very well and worked with it’s limitations I honestly feel that Super is a worthy successor in nearly every way, it works as a sequel so well because I went back and then came to understand the craft of storytelling whether that be visually, through sound, what the characters say, what they don’t say, etc.

I think what makes DBS popular is that it's mainly banking on nostalgia and fan service. I honestly don't think many original anime properties could get away with what Toei has been handling DBS. That's why they bring back old characters, regressing characters to exaggerate their more popular traits, and rely so heavily on references/callbacks to the original. There were some enjoyable new concepts but I can't deny that I get a strong feeling the main intent for it's existence is to milk the series. It's not just a problem for Dragonball specifically and this applies to almost every recent reboot and continuation of a classic franchise that's released a few decades after the original was long over. A lot of them aren't particularity memorable and probably won't age well but they're fun to watch if you're a longtime fan of the series.