Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:49 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:You know an awful lot of Super for a guy who says he doesn't like it. I bet you've seen the most (an probably all) of the episodes and you are going to watch the movie as well?
I obviously (and unfortunately) watched Dragon Ball Super. No one can say they did not like something if they didn't know what that was about it, otherwise I wouldn't be able to judge it. :eh:

And no, if the next movie is all about fights with a crap antagonist without a decent Saiyans backstory then no, I won't watch it. Dragon Ball Super series got me prepared and it won't fool me again with the same bullshit.
Mister_Popo wrote:Would you really make that kind of sacrifices for something you dislike that much?
My dislike is not hate. My dislike is disappointment. I wouldn't care at all, but we are talking about a franchise that I care and love, moreover, as a fan I want the best for it. If it was the case I hated it, I wouldn't make that sacrifice. I can express my disappointment just as fine as people can express their happiness about the content Dragon Ball has been providing.

This "if you don't like it, why are you here? Why are you discussing?" argument/statement does not make a lick of sense, you know. Debates are not just made of agreement and opinions that match with each other.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:03 pm

Actually I don't have many problems with modern Dragon Ball. Yeah, we have bad animation but I was expecting something like that because Toei, and we have the problems with powerscalling. In "my chronology" I can fill the holes, but it would be much better if we have some explanations and/or more consistency.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Jesus-is Lord wrote:If toei adapted toyotaro manga in the same fashion it adapted Z, would you have less of a problem, more of a problem or about the same ?
I wouldn't call it soulless but even if Toei adapted the manga (which would and still is impossible due to the format), it would still be filled with fan service and the story would still lack the coherent and complexity (as in there's a lot going on, not that it's hard to follow) of Toriyama's original manga. The problem is that both Toei and Toyotarou have very little to work with in terms of story content so they have to each make things up to connect the dots and the end result is things not clicking together the way they should, both as separate arcs and as one long story.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:06 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:
My dislike is not hate. My dislike is disappointment. I wouldn't care at all, but we are talking about a franchise that I care and love, moreover, as a fan I want the best for it. If it was the case I hated it, I wouldn't make that sacrifice. I can express my disappointment just as fine as people can express their happiness about the content Dragon Ball has been providing.

This "if you don't like it, why are you here? Why are you discussing?" argument/statement does not make a lick of sense, you know. Debates are not just made out of agreement and opinions that match with each other.

I think it somehow does.
The 'i've been watching my house on fire and can't stop watching'- argument, that's something that i've never understood.
I personally don't see the sense of that, of making a hobby of something you would entirely dislike.

The fact you still reserve so much time for it, is an indicator you probably don't dislike it 'that' much.
It could be more nuanced. You are somehow disappointmented to some degree, but you still find some enjoyment in ot, otherwise you wouldn't watch it.
One can watch a bad movie once. But is the guy that's been way too dissapointment going to watch an entire anime series tillt he end?
I for instance really don't like other fiction anymore, but i don't watch the new content of the franchise anymore either. Because i know that doesn't make much sense, it's lost time and energy.

That makes me think you are sometimes over-reacting.

'Debates are not just made out of agreement and opinions that match with each other.'

-> That's not my opinion at all. In the first page of this thread i have made my criticism towards Super as a fan clear, although i still give it the benefice of the doubt.
I like to discuss Super about the stuff that can be improved, but why always the doomsday-context?

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Forte224 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:25 pm

The art style for one. But that's mostly being fixed with the new movie. Of course, that Heroes anime retains it due to Yamamuro and I think when it's on model it looks generic and when it's off model it looks terrible, worse than anything Z gave us. This has been my first and foremost issue, because the art is what makes Dragon Ball really stand out.

Second is the story. Yeah, the original manga and anime weren't perfect at all, but Super took things to a new level. The BoG arc was painfully inferior to the movie, Freeza coming back was just plain boring, the U6 arc was marred by the fact that only Goku and Vegeta really played any part on the U7 side, the Black arc had an awful, awful last few episodes, and the ToP once again underutilized over half of its cast. Not to mention the fact that we could've had actual interesting stories and worlds with all these new universes, but we're only ever given disappointing glimpses of them. Alongside all this, the inconsistent power scaling, character motivations, and retcons in general affected all of those arcs. And the Heroes anime...blech. Lacks any substance whatsoever. It's just "Wow look guys, Golden Coola! Whoaaaaaa look SSB vs SS4!!"

Third, hate to say it, but the fanbase is getting really out of hand. Several places have always been that way, but now here (mainly with the Super forum but it's leaked into other forums a little too) it's just as bad as any other site. Forget toxicity, it's just people who cherry pick points to fit their arguments and fail to listen to any reasoning or find any middle ground that make me sick. People base their arguments on superficial things like memes and waifus and shipping and hype and nostalgia instead of actual writing and quality.

But, there's one thing that basically negates all this for me: The original manga is still there and none of this here affects that. When I'm reading or watching the original material, none of what modern DB has done wrong even comes into my mind. The original manga (imperfect as it is) feels complete and didn't need continuation, so anything created past it is just extra credit.

P.S. The only thing that still legitamtely bugs me is FUNi's handling of TFC/BoG/RoF/Super where they continue to change dialogue for no reason to the point that I just hate watching it, because it continues to affect people's view of the original material.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:37 pm

Forte224 wrote:There's one thing that negates all this for me: The original manga is still there and none of this here affects that. When I'm watching the original material, none of what modern DB has done wrong even comes into my mind. The original (imperfect as it is) feels complete and didn't need continuation, so anything created past it is just extra credit.
This pretty much makes everything wrong Modern DB does easier to look past cause it has no affect on the original material. Toriyama's original work still stands on its own like it always has and continues to be put alongside other great shonen so whatever happens outside of it will stay there it its own corner. I personally look at modern DB as a separate work from the original as the way it's written and produced is completely different.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:46 pm

sintzu wrote:
Jesus-is Lord wrote:If toei adapted toyotaro manga in the same fashion it adapted Z, would you have less of a problem, more of a problem or about the same ?
I wouldn't call it soulless but even if Toei adapted the manga (which would and still is impossible due to the format), it would still be filled with fan service and the story would still lack the coherent and complexity (as in there's a lot going on, not that it's hard to follow) of Toriyama's original manga. The problem is that both Toei and Toyotarou have very little to work with in terms of story content so they have to each make things up to connect the dots and the end result is things not clicking together the way they should, both as separate arcs and as one long story.
That's why it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if Toriyama would say 'Guys, and you can make the anime completely on your own, in all it's glory, i take a step down now for a new generation to experiment'.

We are somehwere peddling between canon and new canon. Maybe an era of new canon (new author who makes the story) would be refreshing.

I don't say Toriyama can no longer come up with any good ideas. But i doubt this is a good manner to run the anime on the long run.
It would be better that the one who makes the seeds of the story arcs (now Toriyama) and the guy who actually supervises the episodes in all its detail would be the same guy.
One maker for the anime so to speak.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:48 pm

Jesus-is Lord wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:It was a soulless, generic cash grab filled with fanservice and nothing resembling a coherent, well written (or well animated for that matter) story. You really can't argue against that, unfortunately. I mean the entirety of the series can be summed up with 2 moments - Piccolo "sacrificing himself" to save Gohan in a lazy, completely soulless rip off of a memorable scene, and when a Female Broly literally tricked us into watching a cheap ripoff of movie 8 frame by frame.

Add a bunch of filler characters nobody really gives a shit about (that don't seem to belong in the same series), the putrid humor meant for 3 year olds, and a big bad antagonist that's just about as interesting as watching paint dry and you've got yourself an embarrassingly bad series.
If toei adapted toyotaro manga in the same fashion it adapted Z (obviously with this new yammuro arstyle but other then that it's the same), would you have less of a problem, more of an problem or about the same?
Execution goes a long way. While the script would inherently be better, if Toei marred the execution the same way it did with Super anime the results would be more or less the same.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:05 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:That's why it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if Toriyama would say 'Guys, and you can make the anime completely on your own, in all it's glory, i take a step down now for a new generation to experiment'.

It would be better that the one who makes the seeds of the story arcs and the guy who actually supervises the episodes in all its detail would be the same guy.
He's half way there. We know he's not working alone and things have gone as far as him just writing what others ask him to (Broly). Despite that through, they've said multiple times that they need Toriyama to guide them cause DB isn't DB without him which is true. Toriyama's current role is more of a guide rather then a full on writer like he was on the manga but he isn't going to do this forever so sooner or later they're going to have to find a way to move on without him.

I fully agree on this point but they're going to need a writer who can bring something new to the table and not just rely on nostalgic ideas.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:13 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:That's why it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if Toriyama would say 'Guys, and you can make the anime completely on your own, in all it's glory, i take a step down now for a new generation to experiment'.

It would be better that the one who makes the seeds of the story arcs and the guy who actually supervises the episodes in all its detail would be the same guy.
He's half way there. We know he's not working alone and things have gone as far as him just writing what others ask him to (Broly). Despite that through, they've said multiple times that they need Toriyama to guide them cause DB isn't DB without him which is true. Toriyama's current role is more of a guide rather then a full on writer like he was on the manga but he isn't going to do this forever so sooner or later they're going to have to find a way to move on without him.

I fully agree on this point but they're going to need a writer who can bring something new to the table and not just rely on nostalgic ideas.

I agree this change of mentality that has to come isn't Toriyamas mistake. The man is only a part of the system now.
Daring to experiment, taking a bet, it will be necessary if they really want to renew and not shoose for the "certainty of fanservice" as Dragon Balls future.
No easy way out.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:24 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:Daring to experiment, taking a bet will be necessary if they really want to renew and not shoose for the "certainty of fanservice" as Dragon Balls future.
If they had a sole writer who's doing this for the art first (of course $$$ plays a role as well) then things wouldn't have gotten anywhere near where they are now. The problem is that DB now like you said, is handled by a system, a business system that makes its decisions based on $$$ first and foremost. When you've got the 1st 3 days of Broly's tickets making DOUBLE what RF's did in its first 3 days, what incentive do they have to take risks and be creative when the easy way will most likely bring in more $$$ ?
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Jesus-is Lord » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:27 pm

sintzu wrote:
Jesus-is Lord wrote:If toei adapted toyotaro manga in the same fashion it adapted Z, would you have less of a problem, more of a problem or about the same ?
I wouldn't call it soulless but even if Toei adapted the manga (which would and still is impossible due to the format), it would still be filled with fan service and the story would still lack the coherent and complexity (as in there's a lot going on, not that it's hard to follow) of Toriyama's original manga. The problem is that both Toei and Toyotarou have very little to work with in terms of story content so they have to each make things up to connect the dots and the end result is things not clicking together the way they should, both as separate arcs and as one long story.
Monthly mangas can't be adapted?
Also I agree, it's best if you have one lead person crafting and fleshing out the story and others fall in line instead of one guy crafting the story, then TWO other parties (that's going to cause division) fleshing it out.
What's the point of the manga if it's going to be behind and pushed to the back forever? The manga dosent even do much with the anime so it's not about "promoting" it. It's a waist. It would make sense if they like delegated the manga like this to groom the manga to lead to franchise but it seems that the editorial staff of shueisha and Akira mostly call the shots while toei and Toyo just follow through. This is stupid. Either we have no manga or it be ahead. No point of having an manga behind.

Also, I agree with the rest of your points. Lol

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Jesus-is Lord » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:33 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:That's why it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if Toriyama would say 'Guys, and you can make the anime completely on your own, in all it's glory, i take a step down now for a new generation to experiment'.

It would be better that the one who makes the seeds of the story arcs and the guy who actually supervises the episodes in all its detail would be the same guy.
He's half way there. We know he's not working alone and things have gone as far as him just writing what others ask him to (Broly). Despite that through, they've said multiple times that they need Toriyama to guide them cause DB isn't DB without him which is true. Toriyama's current role is more of a guide rather then a full on writer like he was on the manga but he isn't going to do this forever so sooner or later they're going to have to find a way to move on without him.

I fully agree on this point but they're going to need a writer who can bring something new to the table and not just rely on nostalgic ideas.

I agree this change of mentality that has to come isn't Toriyamas mistake. The man is only a part of the system now.
Daring to experiment, taking a bet, it will be necessary if they really want to renew and not shoose for the "certainty of fanservice" as Dragon Balls future.
No easy way out.
Hey guys... What about toyotaro... Crickets

Sighs... :(

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:39 pm

Jesus-is Lord wrote:Monthly mangas can't be adapted?
It can, the problem is that the people calling the shots want DB to be a weekly show so there won't be enough content to adapt as we'll be getting 1 chapter a month compared to 4 episodes. For a monthly manga to be adapted they'd have to switch DB over to a seasonal format or they can keep it ongoing but instead switch the manga over to weekly Shonen Jump.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:43 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:Daring to experiment, taking a bet will be necessary if they really want to renew and not shoose for the "certainty of fanservice" as Dragon Balls future.
If they had a sole writer who's doing this for the art first (of course $$$ plays a role as well) then things wouldn't have gotten anywhere near where they are now. The problem is that DB now like you said, is handled by a system, a business system that makes its decisions based on $$$ first and foremost. When you've got the 1st 3 days of Broly's tickets making DOUBLE what RF's did in its first 3 days, what incentive do they have to take risks and be creative when the easy way will most likely bring in more $$$ ?

A mega succesfull weekly anime can still make the hypetrain and sells rolling even more than a movie, on the long term.
In order to make good longer arcs, they've got to bring something of an unpredictable and complex storyboard for a longer period to keep people hooked.
That perspective somehow keeps me modestly hopeful we are going to get better stories just as better animation, despite the unavoidable fanservice.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:51 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:In order to make good longer arcs, they've got to bring something of an unpredictable and complex storyboard for a longer period to keep people hooked.
We need an arc like Namek again where you've got multiple parts turning, different characters with different motivations, characters coming in and out of the story, a villain who can keep us hooked and terrified, a final battle that's favor goes back and forth between the heroes and villains, etc. The Namek arc isn't just a great DB story, it's a great anime/manga story in general and a great blue print on how an arc should be done. Of course that's not taking into account the equally amazing Saiyan arc that leads directly into it which is why a lot of fans (including myself) consider that part of the story (Saiyan&Namek) as DB's peak in quality and storytelling.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:45 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:In order to make good longer arcs, they've got to bring something of an unpredictable and complex storyboard for a longer period to keep people hooked.
We need an arc like Namek again where you've got multiple parts turning, different characters with different motivations, characters coming in and out of the story, a villain who can keep us hooked and terrified, a final battle that's favor goes back and forth between the heroes and villains, etc. The Namek arc isn't just a great DB story, it's a great anime/manga story in general and a great blue print on how an arc should be done. Of course that's not taking into account the equally amazing Saiyan arc that leads directly into it which is why a lot of fans (including myself) consider that part of the story (Saiyan&Namek) as DB's peak in quality and storytelling.
The Future Trunks arc could have been that. Very poor choice on the writers' part, to reduce the Future Trunks arc to a mere 20 episodes, and stretch the Tournament of Power arc for 50+ episodes.

It is the general consensus that the first 10 episodes of the Future Trunks arc were some of the most impressive and gripping in the show. Then, after Beerus destroyed Present Zamasu, they rushed the arc to the ending, and so many things were poorly explained (Goku Black cutting a rift in reality, Infinite Zamasu, Trunks learning the Mafuba, Trunks learning the sword of hope and friendship) or not explained at all (Trunks reforging his broken sword with... hope and friendship?, Super Saiyan Rage), and many epic fights (such as Vegito vs. Fused Zamasu or Trunks vs. Fused Zamasu) were much shorter than they should have been.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by sintzu » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:58 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:The Future Trunks arc could have been that. Very poor choice on the writers' part, to reduce the Future Trunks arc to a mere 20 episodes.
Not only was the episode count short but the content itself within those episodes was very stretched out. There's so much more they could've done like introduce U10 (as Zamasu is from there), introduce some fighters that were ordered to help take him down, develop Zamasu more to justify his actions, Have Trunks train to actually reach some of the powers he got, etc. Zamasu and Black are among the best DB characters but the arc they were in didn't do them justice as it had the potential to be one of the more complex and longer ones. After awhile it just boiled down to the heroes going to the past, getting their butts kicked, then doing it all over again.
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Waluigiman » Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:57 pm

This is more on Funimation but I think it still qualifies.

Funimation: I don't like how it is easily influenced by Team Four Star to the point it tries to make references to it or is trying to be like the parody. One example of this is the Yamcha episode in which they turn it into "Let's be mean to Yamcha". Sure the Japanese version was harsh on him to a lesser extent (but this is another story) but just compare the dialoge and you will see what I am talking about. I don't like how they messed up the characters by making them less sympathetic, it gives the audience a bad impression of them. This is minor too but I found it strange that they decided to change Magetta's voice and replace it with something that sounds like Go Animate(those weird x does x and gets grounded.) I think it is too distracting instead of the "Cho Po" that should had stayed as it was fine as it was.

The usage of Characters like Goten, Trunks, Yamcha, Tien, Buu, Piccolo, etc...: I don't like how they get reduce as the story progresses. It kind of make me sad that the franchise only cares about them in making them awesome in video games (aside of some cutscenes like Dragon Ball Fighterz) but are rather indifferent of their neglection. Some characters have been used at the Tournament of Power but I feel that if the story was made before the android arc, their treatment would have been better. (Master Roshi had been done well, so good points for them.)

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Grimlock » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:09 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:I personally don't see the sense of that, of making a hobby of something you would entirely dislike.
I don't, my only contact with Dragon Ball Super is through watching Dragon Ball Heroes clips and playing Xenoverse, whenever something related to Super appears in each of them, I obviously see it. Other than those I don't make it my hobby.
Mister_Popo wrote:The fact you still reserve so much time for it, is an indicator you probably don't dislike it 'that' much.
Or, you know, I like to have a conversation about things. It is nice to see other arguments and other points of view. You call it "waste of energy and time", I call it "a proper human interaction".
Mister_Popo wrote:You are somehow disappointmented to some degree, but you still find some enjoyment in ot, otherwise you wouldn't watch it.
This should not come as a surprise, there are a lot of threads out there in which I say what I liked about Dragon Ball Super. But my overall rating for it, despite a little few things I enjoyed, is not favorable and enough to me to say Dragon Ball Super was cool, and considering it proved that the main series will continue to be stuck in the safe zone these days, it gets me prevented from watching the movie and the next series unless they also prove to be something more than just random fights.
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