Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Acetona » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:14 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote:
Acetona wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It lacks originality and ambition. Toriyama seems content on writing short, self-contained, small-scope arcs which focus on one or two neat concepts, rather than utilize the world and characters he has created to their fullest potential. Toyotaro lacks the creativity to do anything interesting with them and really bring Toriyama's plots to life. He's constantly referencing the original series and his chapters are filled with exposition explaining every little thing, even stuff that should be obvious and you could infer from context. He's very obviously a fan and not a writer. And the anime tries to expand on Toriyama's napkin plots with their own unique, interesting ideas but they never go anywhere with them, and mostly just fall back on rehashing moments from the original series in order to cater to the casual fans. At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.

So, get some new blood in because Super lacks any kind of identity whatsoever. The manga desperately tries to be DBZ again and the anime desperately tries to be generic battle Shounen number 4982. For all of its faults, GT felt different. It has its own feel, even if it takes a while until it gets its own identity and separates itself completely from its parents. Bring someone in who understands the series enough to want it to push forward and go into new territory, but not someone who is obsessed with referencing the previous series at every possible opportunity like Toyotaro.
Once more, I couldn't agree more with Doctor.

Other improvements that could be made:
1. Fire Sumitomo. Give us Hiroshi Takaki and his marvelous orchestral yet modern sounding music. Just listen to any of his Precure or Super Sentai soundtracks.
2. Probably impossible, but get Torishima to give some sense on Toriyama. He's lost his touch way too much.
3. Just complementing the above post, I wish they would stop bringing characters back for the sake of nostalgia. Like, they created Kale and now are bringing Broly back. This is dumb as hell and feels cheap.
4. Minor nitpick, also mostly impossible, but replace Nishimura on his sound effect duties. Arai won't return for sure, but we could at least get some 100% new sound effects. It's better than those that sound like the old ones at the same time they sound lame.
Just to address the bolded, my companion, torishima approved and praised RoF. Him being there honestly means jack all
I didn't know that. Now I'm sad :lol:
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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:07 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I have to agree with SupremeKai25 on this, we've gotten to the point where the Gods of Destruction are going to be overtaken as the standard moving forward. Jiren already broke the threshold and Broly will have to do the same and everyone who follows them. What then? Spend 3 years catching up Whis then another 3 to the Grand Priest. Okay, what then? We gonna make Goku & Vegeta stronger than Zeno too then reveal that Zeno is just the ruler of one multiverse in a set of an omniverse?!

Yeah, this thing is rapidly reaching a point where it HAS to fracking stop.
Dragonball by its nature HAS to keep making each villain stronger than the last otherwise there would be no drama nor tension, since this is a series where raw power beats everything else (essentially, this ain't HunterxHunter lol). There is no way in the context of Dragonball that you can create a compelling villain for an arc that's much weaker than Goku is.

Also, Dragonball is all about Goku and the other consistently getting stronger and pushing their limits, so all the villains by narrative necessity must be stronger than the last in order to fit in with the franchise's theme.
Last edited by zarmack on Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:I despise how every villain is stronger than the last one.
Dragon Ball has been doing that since day 1.
A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.
Wrong. Saiyans (and some others) by nature have infinite potential and no limits. There essentially isn't a threshold that can't eventually be broken. Making one would contradict the entire nature of the franchise and Goku's character in particular.

Besides, these characters can easily blow up universes, so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:30 pm

Doctor. wrote:It lacks originality and ambition. Toriyama seems content on writing short, self-contained, small-scope arcs which focus on one or two neat concepts, rather than utilize the world and characters he has created to their fullest potential. Toyotaro lacks the creativity to do anything interesting with them and really bring Toriyama's plots to life. He's constantly referencing the original series and his chapters are filled with exposition explaining every little thing, even stuff that should be obvious and you could infer from context. He's very obviously a fan and not a writer. And the anime tries to expand on Toriyama's napkin plots with their own unique, interesting ideas but they never go anywhere with them, and mostly just fall back on rehashing moments from the original series in order to cater to the casual fans. At the same time, it feels like a lot of the staff doesn't understand what made Dragon Ball unique and special and they just attempt to apply modern Shounen tropes and clichés to the series.

So, get some new blood in because Super lacks any kind of identity whatsoever. The manga desperately tries to be DBZ again and the anime desperately tries to be generic battle Shounen number 4982. For all of its faults, GT felt different. It has its own feel, even if it takes a while until it gets its own identity and separates itself completely from its parents. Bring someone in who understands the series enough to want it to push forward and go into new territory, but not someone who is obsessed with referencing the previous series at every possible opportunity like Toyotaro.
I agree with all of this.

Dragonball needs a showrunner like Takao Koyama in charge again, someone who truly understands the series's story and characters, takes them seriously and is willing to expand on them with material like this: Image
Image
Image

The 90's Bardock and Future Trunks specials are also great examples of this. Modern DB has yet to produce anything like these.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:36 am

zarmack wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Dragon Ball has been doing that since day 1.
A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.
Wrong. Saiyans (and some others) by nature have infinite potential and no limits. There essentially isn't a threshold that can't eventually be broken. Making one would contradict the entire nature of the franchise and Goku's character in particular.

Besides, these characters can easily blow up universes, so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.
This "Saiyan has no limits thing" was never a thing until Super and in my eyes the concept sucks.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:54 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
A grievance that I had with the old Dragon Ball, and I still have with the modern Dragon Ball. There must be a threshold that cannot be broken, there must be a point when a certain villain has reached the apex and cannot be surpassed anymore. The writers can't go on like this. I thought that Infinite Zamasu would be the greatest villain that Goku and friends would ever face, seeing as he was literally one with the universe. But I guess I was wrong, since apparently Jiren and Broly trash all over Infinite Zamasu.
Wrong. Saiyans (and some others) by nature have infinite potential and no limits. There essentially isn't a threshold that can't eventually be broken. Making one would contradict the entire nature of the franchise and Goku's character in particular.

Besides, these characters can easily blow up universes, so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.
This "Saiyan has no limits thing" was never a thing until Super and in my eyes the concept sucks.
It was a thing in the original manga/anime too. Both Vegeta and Freeza outright stated that Saiyan's have infinite potential in the Namek arc. It was also stated in the Daizenshuu guides and even GT.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by JazzMazz » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:32 am

For reference, I'm not saying there shouldn't be any blood at all, I think DB at least returning to having the same amount of blood as a show like One Piece would be good, but excessive gore, isn't really necessary to show off how brutal something is.

An effective way of showing gore without really showing it, would be the use of silohuette's during bits of extreme violence.

As for Super not being ambitious, I think it suffers more from the opposite problem more often than not, its too ambitious in its scale, and far more half assed in its execution than any of the prior series. Yes the storylines themselves sound fairly generic, for example, tournaments and battles with big guys, but the level of scale desired from these conflicts really wasn't captured. Goku vs Beerus was supposed to be a BATTLE BETWEEN GODS, resurrection F should have been the RETURN OF THE GALATIC TYRANT BIGGER AND BADDER THAN EVER, the destroyer tournament was a conflict between THE STRONGEST GUYS FROM 2 UNIVERSES, the FT arc kind of speaks for itself in terms of scale, but I think most offensively was the TOP which was an all out between 70 OTHER OF THE STRONGEST FIGHTERS IN THE UNIVERSE IN A HUGE BATTLE ROYALE.

All these story idea's are, and should be, really interesting and cool, however, for the most part, they're usually really lacking in their presentation, and as such, doesn't end up feeling anywhere near as they could be...

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:48 am

zarmack wrote:
It was a thing in the original manga/anime too. Both Vegeta and Freeza outright stated that Saiyan's have infinite potential in the Namek arc. It was also stated in the Daizenshuu guides and even GT.
Can you post a scan from the manga, however, GT isn't a valid source it's non canon and the Daizenshuu is secondary canon. So while the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:09 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
It was a thing in the original manga/anime too. Both Vegeta and Freeza outright stated that Saiyan's have infinite potential in the Namek arc. It was also stated in the Daizenshuu guides and even GT.
Can you post a scan from the manga, however, GT isn't a valid source it's non canon and the Daizenshuu is secondary canon. So while the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal.
Image

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:17 am

zarmack wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
It was a thing in the original manga/anime too. Both Vegeta and Freeza outright stated that Saiyan's have infinite potential in the Namek arc. It was also stated in the Daizenshuu guides and even GT.
Can you post a scan from the manga, however, GT isn't a valid source it's non canon and the Daizenshuu is secondary canon. So while the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal.
Image
The one on the top left is from Super and it started this perpetual notion of Saiyans being limitless or having no limits, so it doesn't count. Still, from what's shown in the manga scans they seem to be referencing is Zenkais, in which I really wouldn't say is limitless potential. Rather a defensive mechanism or preemptive boost to insure the Saiyan has a fighting chance next time since, naturally, the stronger a Saiyan gets, the more diminishing the returns will be. ( Probably a stretch) Although Toriyama stated in a interview that Goku had already reached his limit at the End of Z or BOG. Of course that's not the case anymore, but this does give credence that they have hit a plateau at some point.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:54 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote: Can you post a scan from the manga, however, GT isn't a valid source it's non canon and the Daizenshuu is secondary canon. So while the Daizenshuu has some weight, something in the official manga to corrobate with what's already been established would be ideal.
Image
The one on the top left is from Super and it started this perpetual notion of Saiyans being limitless or having no limits, so it doesn't count. Still, from what's shown in the manga scans they seem to be referencing is Zenkais, in which I really wouldn't say is limitless potential. Rather a defensive mechanism or preemptive boost to insure the Saiyan has a fighting chance next time since, naturally, the stronger a Saiyan gets, the more diminishing the returns will be. ( Probably a stretch) Although Toriyama stated in a interview that Goku had already reached his limit at the End of Z or BOG. Of course that's not the case anymore, but this does give credence that they have hit a plateau at some point.
The top-right and bottom left squares were clearly referencing their general combat power, not zenkais. Also, there was no interview from Toriyama that stated that they reached their limit at the end of Z or BoG. Either way, every time in the original manga when Goku and others were said to be reaching their limits (like after they unlocked SSJ1 for the 1st time) they end up breaking them anyway and reaching new levels of power over and over again, suggesting that they have no limits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcvx8bERWs

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:20 am

zarmack wrote:
The top-right and bottom left squares were clearly referencing their general combat power, not zenkais.
Because of a zenkai though, I'm pretty in the Namek Saga for every Saiyan outside of Gohan's potential unlock by Grand Elder Guru, every powerup was made through Zenkai.
Also, there was no interview from Toriyama that stated that they reached their limit at the end of Z or BoG.
There was, if anyone could find it that would be great, it goes something like Goku can't get any stronger. Additionally, there was also another tidbit of information saying everyone was in their prime in the BOG movie.
Either way, every time in the original manga when Goku and others were said to be reaching their limits (like after they unlocked SSJ1 for the 1st time) they end up breaking them anyway and reaching new levels of power over and over again, suggesting that they have no limits.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcvx8bERWs
True, but SSJ3 for Goku, SSJ2 for Vegeta, and the Ultimate form for Gohan were their true limits until Super, and they couldn't get any stronger. Moreover, the video is redundant, as his whole argument for why Saiyans have unlimited potential relies on information all from Super. While I'm trying to prove that unlimited potential or "no limits" wasn't a thing until Super.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:22 am

Saiyans have no limits? Then I can't wait to watch Goku and Vegeta beat the Grand Priest's ass in 1 second!
so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.
And which other antagonist could only be defeated by Zeno himself?

Zamasu was the only villain who managed to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcend time and space by himself, on top of being so immensely powerful that Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to destroy him. Nothing will change that. And Broly will certainly not perform feats of that magnitude. In the end, he is just a Saiyan. Strong, sure, and gifted with amazing potential, but he is not omnipresent.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:25 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
zarmack wrote: Also, there was no interview from Toriyama that stated that they reached their limit at the end of Z or BoG.
There was, if anyone could find it that would be great, it goes something like Goku can't get any stronger. Additionally, there was also another tidbit of information saying everyone was in their prime in the BOG movie.
I know which interview you're talking about:

Q: Why did you chose to make this story after the Majin Buu saga?

Akira Toriyama: I wanted to use all of the characters, and I wondered which saga was the best, so I decided that it would be several years after Majin Buu showed up, and everyone was in their strongest condition at that time. Do you remember Uub? when I created Uub, Bulma and Krillin were really old, so I thought it would be difficult to adjust the story.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:30 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
The top-right and bottom left squares were clearly referencing their general combat power, not zenkais.
Because of a zenkai though, I'm pretty in the Namek Saga for every Saiyan outside of Gohan's potential unlock by Grand Elder Guru, every powerup was made through Zenkai.
Also, there was no interview from Toriyama that stated that they reached their limit at the end of Z or BoG.
There was, if anyone could find it that would be great, it goes something like Goku can't get any stronger. Additionally, there was also another tidbit of information saying everyone was in their prime in the BOG movie.
Either way, every time in the original manga when Goku and others were said to be reaching their limits (like after they unlocked SSJ1 for the 1st time) they end up breaking them anyway and reaching new levels of power over and over again, suggesting that they have no limits.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcvx8bERWs
True, but SSJ3 for Goku, SSJ2 for Vegeta, and the Ultimate form for Gohan were their true limits until Super, and they couldn't get any stronger. Moreover, the video is redundant, as his whole argument for why Saiyans have unlimited potential relies on information all from Super. While I'm trying to prove that unlimited potential or "no limits" wasn't a thing until Super.
1. Those quotes from Vegeta and Freeza were clearly referencing the fact that Saiyans constantly get stronger as they fight (which is a separate concept/ability from zenkais, the ability to get stronger after healing from a near-death state.) because of their "bottomless potential". Those quotes were not a reference to zenkais.

2. You are ignoring the fact that saiyans constantly "breaking their limits" was always a thing. In the Android arc before they went into the ROSAT, it was assumed that SSJ1 was the end all be all of saiyan potential, but that was proven wrong.

3. That interview merely said that everyone was at their strongest at the time of the story (which was the Buu arc). Toriyama never said that they couldn't get any stronger than that (and he never said that SSJ3, SSJ2 and Ultimate form was their true limits, that's just your headcanon) and in that very movie (BoG) both Goku and Vegeta unlock new levels of power beyond what they had in the Buu arc. If that was their limits then they wouldn't have gotten any stronger at all during BoG.

Besides, both the original manga and the Daizenshuu had depicted/implied Goku and Vegeta in the end of Z being much stronger than they were in the Buu saga (and stronger then Gohan, who was the strongest non-fused character in the Buu arc and still trained afterwards).

4. Both the Daizenshuu and Super Exciting Guides were co-written and approved by Toriyama and they both say that Saiyans have infinite potential. So you can't dismissed them out of bias.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:37 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:Saiyans have no limits? Then I can't wait to watch Goku and Vegeta beat the Grand Priest's ass in 1 second!
so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.
And which other antagonist could only be defeated by Zeno himself?

Zamasu was the only villain who managed to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcend time and space by himself, on top of being so immensely powerful that Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to destroy him. Nothing will change that. And Broly will certainly not perform feats of that magnitude. In the end, he is just a Saiyan. Strong, sure, and gifted with amazing potential, but he is not omnipresent.
Merging with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcending space and time isn't all that impressive by Super's standards. The series had 4D feats on the level since the BoG arc where SSG Goku and Beerus send shockwaves throughout all of U7 (even into its afterlife). Plus, Beerus didn't consider Infinite Zamasu a big deal when he sensed him from another timeline and Jiren even when massively suppressed was stated to be stronger than that (since he casually "transcends time" just by existing). So Infinite Zamasu powerscaling wise isn't all that.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:45 pm

zarmack wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Saiyans have no limits? Then I can't wait to watch Goku and Vegeta beat the Grand Priest's ass in 1 second!
so there's no way they intended Infinite Zamasu to be the strongest threat ever.
And which other antagonist could only be defeated by Zeno himself?

Zamasu was the only villain who managed to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcend time and space by himself, on top of being so immensely powerful that Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to destroy him. Nothing will change that. And Broly will certainly not perform feats of that magnitude. In the end, he is just a Saiyan. Strong, sure, and gifted with amazing potential, but he is not omnipresent.
Merging with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcending space and time isn't all that impressive by Super's standards. The series had 4D feats on the level since the BoG arc where SSG Goku and Beerus send shockwaves throughout all of U7 (even into its afterlife). Plus, Beerus didn't consider Infinite Zamasu a big deal when he sensed him from another timeline and Jiren even when massively suppressed was stated to be stronger than that (since he casually "transcends time" just by existing). So Infinite Zamasu powerscaling wise isn't all that.
I know that Jiren and Broly are both stated to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu, that's the problem I have with this series. I can't believe that two mortals are much more powerful than a being who transcended to a higher state of existence by becoming the Universe itself. Are there any other characters in Dragon Ball who even managed to do that?

Bascially, if you are able to become the Universe itself, you should be the strongest villain ever. At least that's my opinion.

It's like the Androids being much stronger than the Emperor of the Universe even though they were just two miserable delinquents modifed by a earthling scientist.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by RedHeat » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:54 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
zarmack wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:Saiyans have no limits? Then I can't wait to watch Goku and Vegeta beat the Grand Priest's ass in 1 second!


And which other antagonist could only be defeated by Zeno himself?

Zamasu was the only villain who managed to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcend time and space by himself, on top of being so immensely powerful that Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to destroy him. Nothing will change that. And Broly will certainly not perform feats of that magnitude. In the end, he is just a Saiyan. Strong, sure, and gifted with amazing potential, but he is not omnipresent.
Merging with the very fabric of the cosmos and transcending space and time isn't all that impressive by Super's standards. The series had 4D feats on the level since the BoG arc where SSG Goku and Beerus send shockwaves throughout all of U7 (even into its afterlife). Plus, Beerus didn't consider Infinite Zamasu a big deal when he sensed him from another timeline and Jiren even when massively suppressed was stated to be stronger than that (since he casually "transcends time" just by existing). So Infinite Zamasu powerscaling wise isn't all that.
I know that Jiren and Broly are both stated to be stronger than Infinite Zamasu, that's the problem I have with this series. I can't believe that two mortals are much more powerful than a being who transcended to a higher state of existence by becoming the Universe itself. Are there any other characters in Dragon Ball who even managed to do that?

Bascially, if you are able to become the Universe itself, you should be the strongest villain ever. Period. At least this is my opinion.

It's like the Androids being much stronger than the Emperor of the Universe even though they were just two miserable delinquents modifed by a earthling scientist.
I mean, it's like that in other fictions like Marvel or DC where you have literal Gods like Thor and humans like Hulk who can compete and sometimes beat them.
Feels over Reals.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by Doctor. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:37 pm

JazzMazz wrote:As for Super not being ambitious, I think it suffers more from the opposite problem more often than not, its too ambitious in its scale, and far more half assed in its execution than any of the prior series. Yes the storylines themselves sound fairly generic, for example, tournaments and battles with big guys, but the level of scale desired from these conflicts really wasn't captured. Goku vs Beerus was supposed to be a BATTLE BETWEEN GODS, resurrection F should have been the RETURN OF THE GALATIC TYRANT BIGGER AND BADDER THAN EVER, the destroyer tournament was a conflict between THE STRONGEST GUYS FROM 2 UNIVERSES, the FT arc kind of speaks for itself in terms of scale, but I think most offensively was the TOP which was an all out between 70 OTHER OF THE STRONGEST FIGHTERS IN THE UNIVERSE IN A HUGE BATTLE ROYALE.

All these story idea's are, and should be, really interesting and cool, however, for the most part, they're usually really lacking in their presentation, and as such, doesn't end up feeling anywhere near as they could be...
It's not the presentation. I mean, there's a problem with the presentation, but the problem starts with the writing. Toriyama doesn't care about developing the premise. He writes a neat and tidy character arc for 2 or 3 people at best and then neglects to address everyone else or the implications the premise to his story arc has on the setting and its characters. It is a matter of half-assed execution, but it's not merely the direction and animation failing to convey the scale of the arc(s), it starts with Toriyama, who, for some reason, keeps writing a compact story about two people butting heads but makes the scale and scope of his story arc huge as fuck. I'd wager Toei has a hand in Toriyama writing with these kinds of settings; the upcoming movie, as lackluster as I believe it to be, seems much more in-line with the kind of story he wants to write.

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Re: Lets have a peaceful discussion about grievances with modern Dragon ball.

Post by zarmack » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:08 pm

Doctor. wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:As for Super not being ambitious, I think it suffers more from the opposite problem more often than not, its too ambitious in its scale, and far more half assed in its execution than any of the prior series. Yes the storylines themselves sound fairly generic, for example, tournaments and battles with big guys, but the level of scale desired from these conflicts really wasn't captured. Goku vs Beerus was supposed to be a BATTLE BETWEEN GODS, resurrection F should have been the RETURN OF THE GALATIC TYRANT BIGGER AND BADDER THAN EVER, the destroyer tournament was a conflict between THE STRONGEST GUYS FROM 2 UNIVERSES, the FT arc kind of speaks for itself in terms of scale, but I think most offensively was the TOP which was an all out between 70 OTHER OF THE STRONGEST FIGHTERS IN THE UNIVERSE IN A HUGE BATTLE ROYALE.

All these story idea's are, and should be, really interesting and cool, however, for the most part, they're usually really lacking in their presentation, and as such, doesn't end up feeling anywhere near as they could be...
It's not the presentation. I mean, there's a problem with the presentation, but the problem starts with the writing. Toriyama doesn't care about developing the premise. He writes a neat and tidy character arc for 2 or 3 people at best and then neglects to address everyone else or the implications the premise to his story arc has on the setting and its characters. It is a matter of half-assed execution, but it's not merely the direction and animation failing to convey the scale of the arc(s), it starts with Toriyama, who, for some reason, keeps writing a compact story about two people butting heads but makes the scale and scope of his story arc huge as fuck. I'd wager Toei has a hand in Toriyama writing with these kinds of settings; the upcoming movie, as lackluster as I believe it to be, seems much more in-line with the kind of story he wants to write.
That's basically it.

Toriyama is a notoriously lazy writer that's reluctant to develop any character and idea beyond its basic concept. I've in the past argued that much of what made DB(Z) great was the influence of the manga's editors at Shonen Jump and the direction the anime took under Koyama. Modern DB seems to prove that without those factors, DB(Z) wouldn't have been any better than Super, as most of the series' problems stem from Toriyama himself.

Its kinda funny (and sad) how despite their own shortcomings, Toei and to some extent Toyotaro are much more ambitious with DB than Toriyama himself.

I'm one of the biggest critics of Toyotaro and the DBS manga out there, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he could write a much better story if he wasn't restricted by Toriyama's outline and directions (I base this on Toyo's DBAF manga, which I like a lot more than his Super manga). And Toei has outshined Toriyama several times, especially in the 90s. They managed to create a better version of the Buu saga than Toriyama did, added a higher amount of depth and nuance to the series (through some of the filler, added dialogue and TV specials) than what was present in the original manga and even improved some of the fight scenes.

If Modern DB is going to improve, it needs to be headed by someone who is well versed in the franchise but has a radically different, more passionate attitude
towards it than Toriyama does.

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