Do Super Saiyan Multipliers Matter

[shadowfox87]

Jiren was never stated to have run out of stamina. That's not a good comparison at all.

Right and because it wasn't stated, it means that Goku and Freeza must have not run out of stamina at all either right? It's common sense that after the fight progresses, both fighters will expend energy. Jiren was on his knees on the ground. Goku and Freeza at the end were just hanging on. Goku was transforming between base and SSJ. The tournament is 48 minutes, they were all exhausted and out of energy. If you need an explicit statement from the author to tell you that Goku and Jiren were exhausted, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Bergamo]

Jiren was never stated to have run out of stamina. That's not a good comparison at all.

Right and because it wasn't stated, it means that Goku and Freeza must have not run out of stamina at all either right? It's common sense that after the fight progresses, both fighters will expend energy. Jiren was on his knees on the ground. Goku and Freeza at the end were just hanging on. Goku was transforming between base and SSJ. The tournament is 48 minutes, they were all exhausted and out of energy. If you need an explicit statement from the author to tell you that Goku and Jiren were exhausted, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Sorry, I thought you meant Jiren when he was fighting MUI Goku not after. I still don't see what this has to do with Goku vs Frieza.

[Jesus-is Lord]

Jiren was never stated to have run out of stamina. That's not a good comparison at all.

Right and because it wasn't stated, it means that Goku and Freeza must have not run out of stamina at all either right? It's common sense that after the fight progresses, both fighters will expend energy. Jiren was on his knees on the ground. Goku and Freeza at the end were just hanging on. Goku was transforming between base and SSJ. The tournament is 48 minutes, they were all exhausted and out of energy. If you need an explicit statement from the author to tell you that Goku and Jiren were exhausted, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Sorry, I thought you meant Jiren when he was fighting MUI Goku not after. I still don't see what this has to do with Goku vs Frieza.

Do you have any evidence other then what you feel in the battle to objectivly debunk that Freeza is weaker then ssj goku?

[Bergamo]

Right and because it wasn't stated, it means that Goku and Freeza must have not run out of stamina at all either right? It's common sense that after the fight progresses, both fighters will expend energy. Jiren was on his knees on the ground. Goku and Freeza at the end were just hanging on. Goku was transforming between base and SSJ. The tournament is 48 minutes, they were all exhausted and out of energy. If you need an explicit statement from the author to tell you that Goku and Jiren were exhausted, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Sorry, I thought you meant Jiren when he was fighting MUI Goku not after. I still don't see what this has to do with Goku vs Frieza.

Do you have any evidence other then what you feel in the battle to objectivly debunk that Freeza is weaker then ssj goku?

The time when Frieza blasted away Super Saiyan Goku using less than 3/4 of his power. The time when Frieza dodged the kamehameha and Nova Striked Goku into a lake.

[Saturnine]

Look, no one is disputing that SSj was 50x on Namek. The discussion is about whether it continues to be this way, to which there's evidence either way. If 6-10-15 was changed unceremoniously, then who's to say 50x needs to have remained the same? In Super constant retcons and changes designed to be imperceptible were in fact blatant, but that is kind of eye-opening in regards to Z as well.

[shadowfox87]

Look, no one is disputing that SSj was 50x on Namek. The discussion is about whether it continues to be this way, to which there's evidence either way. If 6-10-15 was changed unceremoniously, then who's to say 50x needs to have remained the same? In Super constant retcons and changes designed to be imperceptible were in fact blatant, but that is kind of eye-opening in regards to Z as well.

Good, at least you agree that SSJ is 50x on Namek. I think that 50x is the standard SSJ multiplier but there are higher grades for each transformation. For SSJ1 Grade 4, it's still 50x because as the guidebooks state, it is only a mastery of stamina. SSJ2 may have higher grades with higher multipliers than 2. These grades could have multipliers from 2-8, 8 meaning that it would equal SSJ3. This is why SSJ2 Trunks or Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta can reach the level of SSJ3 even if their bases are the same. However, the multipliers given in the SEG still do apply for the first grade of each transformation. This just my headcanon but this is what I go by:

------DBZ------
SSJ Grade 1 = 50x Base (power, speed, stamina balanced but still some stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 2 (ASSJ) = 60x Base = 1.2x SSJ Grade 1 (More power, higher muscle mass, some speed decrease, stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 3 (USSJ) = 10x SSJ (Lots of power, Increased muscle mass lowers speed by a lot, stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 4 (FPSSJ) = 50x Base (power, speed, and stamina perfectly balanced)

These grades are not fan-made but were written in an official source for the Trunks anime comics translated by Herms: viewtopic.php?t=22411

BSSJ (Berserk SSJ) = 1000x SSJ (Similar to USSJ, but no speed drop and more power than SSJ3. Multiplier is still less than SSG. Only applies to Legendary Saiyans like Kale and Broly.)

The 10x multiplier for USSJ is based on a book called "Dragon Ball Legend of Manga" released in 2007 by Shueisha with original language Japanese. It was translated to Spanish and French.
Source: viewtopic.php?t=38328 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liNSB ... h768-rw-no

SSJ2 = 2x SSJ
SSJ2 Grade 2 = 4x SSJ
SSJ2 Grade 3 = 8x SSJ ~ SSJ3 (Future Trunks and Vegeta have both shown to surpass SSJ3)
SSJ2 Grade 4 (SS Rage) = 10x SSJ2 (anime only, higher grade of SSJ2, exclusive to Future Trunks.)

SSJ3 = 4x SSJ2 (Lots of power but lots of stamina drain)

-------DBS-------
SSG = 5,000,000x Base (Derived from my link in sig)
SSB = 10x SSG (From Manga)
CSSB = 20x SSB (Equivalent to Kaioken x20 in the anime)

SSJ (+10% God Ki) = SSG (What Goku used against Beerus in space. Anime only.)
Base (+10% God Ki) = SSG/10 (AKA Saiyan Beyond God. What Goku uses against Freeza in RoF.)

-----GT-------
Super Oozaru = 50x Oozaru = 500x Base (AKA Golden Oozaru. Shown in GT by Goku.)
Super Oozaru 2 = 2x Super Oozaru = 100x Oozaru = 1000x Base (Shown in GT by Baby Vegeta.)
SSJ4 = Controlled Golden Oozaru = 10x SSJ = 500x Base (Reason why it's 10x Kamehameha)
Full-Powered SSJ4= 4x SSJ4 = 2000x Base (After absorbing energies of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan)

[Jesus-is Lord]

Sorry, I thought you meant Jiren when he was fighting MUI Goku not after. I still don't see what this has to do with Goku vs Frieza.

Do you have any evidence other then what you feel in the battle to objectivly debunk that Freeza is weaker then ssj goku?

The time when Frieza blasted away Super Saiyan Goku using less than 3/4 of his power. The time when Frieza dodged the kamehameha and Nova Striked Goku into a lake.

How about the time Kuririn was able to block and dodge some of nappa attacks and then got some hits on it while be seperated into 3 clones? What about ssj2 vegeta getting good hits on kid buu, and being able to blow him to bits sometimes?
Getting hits on someone does not mean much of anything
2nd, when frieza was using less then 3/4th and used a force field attack to push back ssj goku, so what? he was already definitive weaker then goku at the time so what does that prove to help your argument? He caught goku off guard in a powerful force attack? does that mean 50% Freeza > ssj goku?
And frieza using that attack, if he was stronger then ssj goku, why didn't he just push the blast back so it can reach goku, why did he attempt to push it back, then ended up out maneruvering it to hit goku?

Just because you have a stronger power level then someone does not mean you'll stomp them. Dbz has made that so clear, so what REAL evidence do you have that full power frieza is stronger then ssj goku that out weighs the OFFCIAL power levels and multiplyers that I believe were confirmed by akira (the multiplyer was confirmed, not sure about the power level of goku being 3,000,000 in base - though I think that was too)?
it's basicaly FACT that ssj is 50x base, and frieza is full power level was 120,000,000 while goku was 150,000,000. But you just want to say "Nope, my eye test says differntly therefore I trust that then what is offcially given" - like bro, the author basically confirmed ssj goku is stronger then frieza - what more evidence do you need?
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/20 ... l/62640853
https://www.quora.com/In-the-Frieza-Sag ... -beginning

[Bergamo]

Do you have any evidence other then what you feel in the battle to objectivly debunk that Freeza is weaker then ssj goku?

The time when Frieza blasted away Super Saiyan Goku using less than 3/4 of his power. The time when Frieza dodged the kamehameha and Nova Striked Goku into a lake.

How about the time Kuririn was able to block and dodge some of nappa attacks and then got some hits on it while be seperated into 3 clones? What about ssj2 vegeta getting good hits on kid buu, and being able to blow him to bits sometimes?
Getting hits on someone does not mean much of anything
2nd, when frieza was using less then 3/4th and used a force field attack to push back ssj goku, so what? he was already definitive weaker then goku at the time so what does that prove to help your argument? He caught goku off guard in a powerful force attack? does that mean 50% Freeza > ssj goku?
And frieza using that attack, if he was stronger then ssj goku, why didn't he just push the blast back so it can reach goku, why did he attempt to push it back, then ended up out maneruvering it to hit goku?

Just because you have a stronger power level then someone does not mean you'll stomp them. Dbz has made that so clear, so what REAL evidence do you have that full power frieza is stronger then ssj goku that out weighs the OFFCIAL power levels and multiplyers that I believe were confirmed by akira (the multiplyer was confirmed, not sure about the power level of goku being 3,000,000 in base - though I think that was too)?
it's basicaly FACT that ssj is 50x base, and frieza is full power level was 120,000,000 while goku was 150,000,000. But you just want to say "Nope, my eye test says differntly therefore I trust that then what is offcially given" - like bro, the author basically confirmed ssj goku is stronger then frieza - what more evidence do you need?

Goku doesn't beat Frieza until after his stamina drops, therefore we don't know if Goku was actually stronger than 100% Frieza without drain. They trade blows enough times to make them seem equal.

[Jesus-is Lord]

The time when Frieza blasted away Super Saiyan Goku using less than 3/4 of his power. The time when Frieza dodged the kamehameha and Nova Striked Goku into a lake.

How about the time Kuririn was able to block and dodge some of nappa attacks and then got some hits on it while be seperated into 3 clones? What about ssj2 vegeta getting good hits on kid buu, and being able to blow him to bits sometimes?
Getting hits on someone does not mean much of anything
2nd, when frieza was using less then 3/4th and used a force field attack to push back ssj goku, so what? he was already definitive weaker then goku at the time so what does that prove to help your argument? He caught goku off guard in a powerful force attack? does that mean 50% Freeza > ssj goku?
And frieza using that attack, if he was stronger then ssj goku, why didn't he just push the blast back so it can reach goku, why did he attempt to push it back, then ended up out maneruvering it to hit goku?

Just because you have a stronger power level then someone does not mean you'll stomp them. Dbz has made that so clear, so what REAL evidence do you have that full power frieza is stronger then ssj goku that out weighs the OFFCIAL power levels and multiplyers that I believe were confirmed by akira (the multiplyer was confirmed, not sure about the power level of goku being 3,000,000 in base - though I think that was too)?
it's basicaly FACT that ssj is 50x base, and frieza is full power level was 120,000,000 while goku was 150,000,000. But you just want to say "Nope, my eye test says differntly therefore I trust that then what is offcially given" - like bro, the author basically confirmed ssj goku is stronger then frieza - what more evidence do you need?

Goku doesn't beat Frieza until after his stamina drops, therefore we don't know if Goku was actually stronger than 100% Frieza without drain. They trade blows enough times to make them seem equal.

It seems that way, but it's confirmed it's not with the offcial power levels:
Goku - 3,000,000
frieza (50%) - 60,000,000
full power - 120,000,000
ssj goku - 150,000,000
Plus, in the manga version it's been sayed by many that it appears the fight wasn't taken that seriously by goku. I don't know dude, I agree with you a lot but this time; you're not making much sense and are going against estblished facts with feelings. Like I can understand if you don't take the ssj2 and 3 multiplyers seriously - but ssj and goku ssj being weaker then frieza? .... No. But agree to dissagree.

[Bergamo]

How about the time Kuririn was able to block and dodge some of nappa attacks and then got some hits on it while be seperated into 3 clones? What about ssj2 vegeta getting good hits on kid buu, and being able to blow him to bits sometimes?
Getting hits on someone does not mean much of anything
2nd, when frieza was using less then 3/4th and used a force field attack to push back ssj goku, so what? he was already definitive weaker then goku at the time so what does that prove to help your argument? He caught goku off guard in a powerful force attack? does that mean 50% Freeza > ssj goku?
And frieza using that attack, if he was stronger then ssj goku, why didn't he just push the blast back so it can reach goku, why did he attempt to push it back, then ended up out maneruvering it to hit goku?

Just because you have a stronger power level then someone does not mean you'll stomp them. Dbz has made that so clear, so what REAL evidence do you have that full power frieza is stronger then ssj goku that out weighs the OFFCIAL power levels and multiplyers that I believe were confirmed by akira (the multiplyer was confirmed, not sure about the power level of goku being 3,000,000 in base - though I think that was too)?
it's basicaly FACT that ssj is 50x base, and frieza is full power level was 120,000,000 while goku was 150,000,000. But you just want to say "Nope, my eye test says differntly therefore I trust that then what is offcially given" - like bro, the author basically confirmed ssj goku is stronger then frieza - what more evidence do you need?

Goku doesn't beat Frieza until after his stamina drops, therefore we don't know if Goku was actually stronger than 100% Frieza without drain. They trade blows enough times to make them seem equal.

It seems that way, but it's confirmed it's not with the offcial power levels:
Goku - 3,000,000
frieza (50%) - 60,000,000
full power - 120,000,000
ssj goku - 150,000,000
Plus, in the manga version it's been sayed by many that it appears the fight wasn't taken that seriously by goku. I don't know dude, I agree with you a lot but this time; you're not making much sense and are going against estblished facts with feelings. Like I can understand if you don't take the ssj2 and 3 multiplyers seriously - but ssj and goku ssj being weaker then frieza? .... No. But agree to dissagree.

I'm not saying that Goku is weaker than Frieza, I'm just saying that he doesn't seem 30 million BP stronger than Frieza. I also don't think that Goku being 150 million on Namek means that SS has an objective multiplier. The entire point of Dragon Ball is Goku's journey of getting stronger, and when you limit his strength to, "just get a transformation with a better multiplier lol," that misses the entire point of what Toriyama is going for.

Also, Power Level guides contradict each other and the manga, so I don't know why I should care what they say. The entire point of my argument is that PL guides are illegitimate, so disproving my argument with PL guides misses the point.

[Skar]

I don't have a lot of faith in the SEG multipliers mainly because they came out in a guidebook 14 years after the manga ended. If Toriyama had these numbers in mind at the time, why not include them in one of his earlier interviews back in the early 90's? Its mentioned on the main site that "it should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author of this databook, he actually had very little involvement with the production of its content, if any at all. The contents of this databook were almost entirely compiled and organized by Caramel Mama and Shueisha".

I wouldn't be surprised if someone at Shueisha filled in that information and Toriyama said "Sure why not. I don't remember how much stronger I intended that form to be". In the manga, Freeza stated when he was using half his power and FPSSJ Goku did when he powered up in front of Korin. If Toriyama could have a character state when they're using half their power, he could've easily had someone say "Incredible! Gohan's power has doubled" or something like that.

[Saturnine]

------DBZ------
SSJ Grade 1 = 50x Base (power, speed, stamina balanced but still some stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 2 (ASSJ) = 60x Base = 1.2x SSJ Grade 1 (More power, higher muscle mass, some speed decrease, stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 3 (USSJ) = 10x SSJ (Lots of power, Increased muscle mass lowers speed by a lot, stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 4 (FPSSJ) = 50x Base (power, speed, and stamina perfectly balanced)

- Grade 2 cannot be stronger than Grade 4, because then Goku wouldn't have said he'd went all out against Cell in the Cell Games, and just freaking used it against him
- Grade 3 cannot be 10x stronger than Grade 1 if SSj2 is only twice as strong. FPSSj Goku was likely already stronger than Grade 3 Trunks at only half his power. SSj2 was way, way beyond that.

Just because some Spanish-language guide said Grade 3 was 10x stroner than SSj, doesn't mean their opinion is worth jack shit.

My own opinion on this is also headcanon I guess, not very widely accepted at the very least, but it does follow the power scaling from the manga at the very least:

SSj2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grade 4 >/= Grade 3 >>>> Grade 2 >>>>>> Grade 1

[shadowfox87]

------DBZ------
SSJ Grade 1 = 50x Base (power, speed, stamina balanced but still some stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 2 (ASSJ) = 60x Base = 1.2x SSJ Grade 1 (More power, higher muscle mass, some speed decrease, stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 3 (USSJ) = 10x SSJ (Lots of power, Increased muscle mass lowers speed by a lot, stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 4 (FPSSJ) = 50x Base (power, speed, and stamina perfectly balanced)

- Grade 2 cannot be stronger than Grade 4, because then Goku wouldn't have said he'd went all out against Cell in the Cell Games, and just freaking used it against him
- Grade 3 cannot be 10x stronger than Grade 1 if SSj2 is only twice as strong. FPSSj Goku was likely already stronger than Grade 3 Trunks at only half his power. SSj2 was way, way beyond that.

Just because some Spanish-language guide said Grade 3 was 10x stroner than SSj, doesn't mean their opinion is worth jack shit.

My own opinion on this is also headcanon I guess, not very widely accepted at the very least, but it does follow the power scaling from the manga at the very least:

SSj2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grade 4 >/= Grade 3 >>>> Grade 2 >>>>>> Grade 1

- Grade 2 or ASSJ has drawbacks. Due to the increased muscle mass, there is some speed reduction and there is stamina issues. So even though it gives a slight power up, it doesn't matter. Goku went all out against Cell using Grade 4, but in the end it wasn't enough.
- When SSJ2 Gohan was beating Perfect Cell, he powered up into a form that resembled Grade 3. Trunks also used Grade 3 against Perfect Cell and everyone stated that he was more powerful than Perfect Cell. It makes sense for it to be 10x but again, it has the drawbacks of speed. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't hit the target.

It isn't a Spanish guide. As I referenced above, it is an original Japanese-language guide by Shueisha published in 2007. It was translated to Spanish and French but the original language is Japanese. The guide contains Toriyama interviews and pictures of his house, and objects in his room.

The whole point of Goku and Vegeta going through the grades was to realize the perfect balance between power, speed, and stamina. They realized Grade 1 was already the best. Vegeta, on the other hand, tried to improve Grade 2. Trunks tried to use Grade 3. They all realized later that Grade 1 is the best and so maintaining Grade 1 as long as they can naturally without wasting energy is what Grade 4 became.

[Saturnine]

Well, your information seems to be very imprecise here.

- Grade 2 or ASSJ has drawbacks. Due to the increased muscle mass, there is some speed reduction and there is stamina issues. So even though it gives a slight power up, it doesn't matter. Goku went all out against Cell using Grade 4, but in the end it wasn't enough.

No speed reduction was ever stated or implied to occur in Grade 2. The Daiz even says it increases both speed and power over a regular SSj. That the speed increase might not be entirely proportional to the power increase is reasonable speculation, but that doesn't change the fact that both the power and speed are increased over regular SSj.

- When SSJ2 Gohan was beating Perfect Cell, he powered up into a form that resembled Grade 3.

Yeah, and still got utterly pwned in a single kick from SSj2 Gohan. You don't bend in half from a kick in the stomach if you're several times stronger than your opponent, am I right or am I right?

Trunks also used Grade 3 against Perfect Cell and everyone stated that he was more powerful than Perfect Cell.

Than Perfect Cell's initial power level. His "relaxed" or "standby" state. Perfect Cell powered up greatly when fighting SSj Goku during the Cell Games, and then powered up greatly yet again when Gohan went SSj2, even before he buffed up against him. It's the same kind of situation as with final form Freeza. His standby power was nothing compared to his 50% power.

It makes sense for it to be 10x but again, it has the drawbacks of speed. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't hit the target.

Yeah, and for that it's enough for you to be even 1,2x slower than your opponent, much less 10x. In Dragon Ball the bigger your ki is, the bigger both your power and speed are. I find it extremely hard to believe that you could make your power go from 1 to 10 with a transformation, yet make your speed to even below 1. If you paid attention, Grade 2 Vegeta was also slower than Perfect Cell, but Cell didn't need to try and dodge his blows, because Vegeta was also weaker than him. Trunks was stronger than Cell at the moment, so Cell did bother to dodge his blows, which could inflict damage upon him if they connected.

My point is - the key is proportion. If there are two opponents with a powerlevel of 10, you'll expect them to both have a power of 10 and a speed of 10. If one of them has a speed that's anything below 10, they won't be able to hit their opponent. That means it's enough if Grade 3's speed decrease is proportional to the current ki, not to Grade 1. If Cell's power and speed are 6 and Vegeta's are 4, Vegeta still can't hit Cell if Cell wishes to dodge. Grade 3 Trunks could have a strength of 8, but a speed of 4 or even 5, and he still couldn't hit Cell and nothing changes. But being 10 times stronger than you are fast - nah I don't buy it, lol

The whole point of Goku and Vegeta going through the grades was to realize the perfect balance between power, speed, and stamina. They realized Grade 1 was already the best. Vegeta, on the other hand, tried to improve Grade 2. Trunks tried to use Grade 3. They all realized later that Grade 1 is the best and so maintaining Grade 1 as long as they can naturally without wasting energy is what Grade 4 became.

It's not discovering America to know that speed and power need to be balanced. That on its own means very little if you don't have the power and speed to beat your opponent in the first place. Grade 4 was good, because it was very strong. I always looked at it as something that eliminates the strain on the body, which lets you power up further, like you would have in Grade 2 at the cost of stress to the body. If the body is conditioned, it can take the strain much better, and with no adverse effects. You will notice that powering up and down in Super Saiyan was at first achievable only after mastering it - never before. Earlier, trying to forcibly power up from SSj led to Grade 2. Goku and Gohan realized that by mastering the transformation they can unleash the real power of Super Saiyan with no strain on the body and no muscles bulging. At least that way it would make sense, because like I said - if Grade 4's only advantage is better stamina, then there's no need NOT to go Grade 2 on top of it to overpower your opponent. Since no one ever did that, it leads me to believe Grade 4 incorporates Grade 2 entirely.

[Rakurai]

No they don't. Not since Namek saga.

You have base Cabba = base Vegeta but SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba.

You have SSJ2 F. Trunks = SSJ3 Goku.

Then you have all those other random rage boosts that make one stronger.

As far as I'm concerned, transformations are simply meant to be treated as power boosts. No math needs to go behind them.

[Saturnine]

No they don't. Not since Namek saga.

You have base Cabba = base Vegeta but SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba.

I know this was most likely not intended as such but I'll happily take this as evidence that FPSSj > SSj

[spoiler]I mean, it's in the fucking name. "Full Power". Right?[/spoiler]

[shadowfox87]

No speed reduction was ever stated or implied to occur in Grade 2. The Daiz even says it increases both speed and power over a regular SSj. That the speed increase might not be entirely proportional to the power increase is reasonable speculation, but that doesn't change the fact that both the power and speed are increased over regular SSj.

I admit I'm wrong about Grade 2. Since the Trunks anime comic literally states that speed and power have been increased, this form must have been abandoned due to another reason. That reason could now only be stamina drain. We haven't seen Grade 2 be used again. In either case, if speed and power both increase, me giving it a 1.2x SSJ or 60x Base is reasonable. Remember, this is headcanon. I'm not saying it's fact.

Page 144

Super Saiyan Grade Two
A Super Saiyan that has surpassed the limits of Super Saiyan: that's Grade Two! Muscles are even larger than in Grade One, with power and speed raised as well! The shape of the Super Saiyan's trademark upright hair is also even more combative. When Vegeta underwent this transformation during his battle with second stage Cell, he called himself "Super Vegeta".

Vegeta
Vegeta underwent ultra special training in the Room of Spirit and Time. The fruits of his labor were this Grade Two transformation and the great Final Flash technique, which has enough force to shatter the Earth! Though he's a warrior who surpasses even stage two Cell, his power was no match for Cell in his perfect form.

[red text] A Super Saiyan that has surpassed its limits!

[Super Vegeta punching second form Cell] Speed and power that overwhelms second stage Cell! Cell couldn't even lay a hand on Super Vegeta!

Source: viewtopic.php?t=22411

Yeah, and still got utterly pwned in a single kick from SSj2 Gohan. You don't bend in half from a kick in the stomach if you're several times stronger than your opponent, am I right or am I right?

Than Perfect Cell's initial power level. His "relaxed" or "standby" state. Perfect Cell powered up greatly when fighting SSj Goku during the Cell Games, and then powered up greatly yet again when Gohan went SSj2, even before he buffed up against him. It's the same kind of situation as with final form Freeza. His standby power was nothing compared to his 50% power.

Of course, it can be argued that Perfect Cell wasn't using his full power for sure. The point is I'm trying to take the numbers I've been given from official guidebooks and make sense of it. Observations are subjective and open to interpretation. We know for a fact that the statement of Trunks surpassing Perfect Cell's power was stated in the manga and in the guidebook. We know that Perfect Cell, when losing to Gohan, also transformed similarly into it. In DBS, when Trunks and Vegeta were sparring, Trunks again used the form as a bait to lure Vegeta. Why would he even bother using this form when he has SSJ2? I realize you don't want to buy 10x because you think it's too large, but the power increase should be greater than SSJ2 just from this observation. You feel that even if a person is very strong and can't hit their target, if they were 10x stronger, they themselves shouldn't feel anything if they were hit, similar to Broly.

Yeah, and for that it's enough for you to be even 1,2x slower than your opponent, much less 10x. In Dragon Ball the bigger your ki is, the bigger both your power and speed are. I find it extremely hard to believe that you could make your power go from 1 to 10 with a transformation, yet make your speed to even below 1. If you paid attention, Grade 2 Vegeta was also slower than Perfect Cell, but Cell didn't need to try and dodge his blows, because Vegeta was also weaker than him. Trunks was stronger than Cell at the moment, so Cell did bother to dodge his blows, which could inflict damage upon him if they connected.

In this case, I'll have to disagree. No, it is not always true that the bigger the ki is, the bigger both power and speed are. In general, that's what we expect but it's not always true. It's stated from the same guide which the Grades are even given a name and discussed that Grade 3 has significant speed loss due to increased muscle mass. SSJ2 for example increased both speed and power. As Gohan was in transition to transforming into it, Cell thought he was going into Grade 3 and goes on to say that Gohan is making the same mistake Trunks did. However, he increased both his speed and power proportionally.

Page 145

Super Saiyan Grade Three
A Super Saiyan with overwhelming power that far surpasses even Grade Two! But the enlarged muscles get in the way and kill speed. In other words, it could be called a transformation that relies too much on power. Another flaw is that its energy consumption is too intense.

Trunks
In terms of power he even surpasses Super Vegeta (Super Saiyan Grade Two)! After Super Vegeta was defeated, he challenged Cell in his stead, but was outclassed in speed and sadly suffered a complete defeat. Incidentally, it seems that Vegeta is also capable of transforming into a Grade Three.

[red text] Challenging evil with gigantic power!!

[Cell dodges Trunks' punch] His speed is drastically reduced due to his muscles! Attacks are meaningless if they don't hit!

Source: viewtopic.php?t=22411

My point is - the key is proportion. If there are two opponents with a powerlevel of 10, you'll expect them to both have a power of 10 and a speed of 10. If one of them has a speed that's anything below 10, they won't be able to hit their opponent. That means it's enough if Grade 3's speed decrease is proportional to the current ki, not to Grade 1. If Cell's power and speed are 6 and Vegeta's are 4, Vegeta still can't hit Cell if Cell wishes to dodge. Grade 3 Trunks could have a strength of 8, but a speed of 4 or even 5, and he still couldn't hit Cell and nothing changes. But being 10 times stronger than you are fast - nah I don't buy it, lol

It's not discovering America to know that speed and power need to be balanced. That on its own means very little if you don't have the power and speed to beat your opponent in the first place. Grade 4 was good, because it was very strong. I always looked at it as something that eliminates the strain on the body, which lets you power up further, like you would have in Grade 2 at the cost of stress to the body. If the body is conditioned, it can take the strain much better, and with no adverse effects. You will notice that powering up and down in Super Saiyan was at first achievable only after mastering it - never before. Earlier, trying to forcibly power up from SSj led to Grade 2. Goku and Gohan realized that by mastering the transformation they can unleash the real power of Super Saiyan with no strain on the body and no muscles bulging. At least that way it would make sense, because like I said - if Grade 4's only advantage is better stamina, then there's no need NOT to go Grade 2 on top of it to overpower your opponent. Since no one ever did that, it leads me to believe Grade 4 incorporates Grade 2 entirely.

Most of what said I agree with already except the part where you said Grade 4 incorporates Grade 2. The Grade 2 has slightly increased muscle mass. This should be clear from when Vegeta first transformed into it against Semi-Perfect Cell. Later, in the Cell Saga, he didn't use it and was shown to be a much slimmer design. Even now, in DBS and all the models of SSJ Vegeta we have seen, he has a slim design of SSJ. The Grade 4 eliminated the excess stamina drain from Grade 1 that newly transformed SSJs all have. That's it, it's not more powerful. It has the same multiplier. The Trunks anime book even states that Grade 1 has a slightly agitated state that Grade 4 removes.

Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!

We still disagree on Grade 3, but oh well. We agree that speed is sacrificed for more power. As the power rises so does the ki which is what people sense when the power rises. Hence, you should know that having higher ki does not necessarily mean having higher power and speed proportionally. The 10x multiplier is just a number, so for your headcanon, you can reduce it but the other stuff regarding Grade 3 still stands.

[Saturnine]

You're relying way too much on guidebooks, but yeah, guess some people like having their stuff laid out to them nice and clear

[Bergamo]

You're relying way too much on guidebooks, but yeah, guess some people like having their stuff laid out to them nice and clear

I think that's exactly the problem. All of the evidence in the original manga points to Goku and 100% Frieza being mostly equal, but I guess this is completely factually incorrect because a guidebook said so.

[ekrolo2]

You're relying way too much on guidebooks, but yeah, guess some people like having their stuff laid out to them nice and clear

I think that's exactly the problem. All of the evidence in the original manga points to Goku and 100% Frieza being mostly equal, but I guess this is completely factually incorrect because a guidebook said so.

I generally take their numbers to be under ideal conditions IE not fatigue or battle damage. In the manga Freeza gets a couple good hits in, implying he starts out closer to Goku but he very quickly losses the edge.